Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Please Take the Time to Understand Our Arguments Before You Attack Them

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The comments our Darwinist friends put up on this site never cease to amaze.  Consider, as a for instance, Kantian Naturalist’s comment that appears as comment 9 to kairosfocus’ Infographic: The science of ID post.  The post sets forth a simple summary of the case for ID, and KN responds: 

What I like about this infographic is that it makes really clear where the problem with intelligent design lies.

Here’s the argument:

(1) We observe that all As are caused by Bs. (2) Cs are similar to As in relevant respects. (3) Therefore, it is highly probable that Cs are also caused by Bs.

But this is invalid, because the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

KN has been posting on this site for years.  He is obviously an intelligent man.  He is obviously a man of good will.  I will assume, therefore, that he is attacking ID as he believes it to be and not a straw man caricature of his own making.  And that is what is so amazing.  How can an intelligent person of good will follow this site for several years and still not understand the basics of ID?  It beggars belief. 

Maybe it will help if I explain ID using the same formal structure KN has used. 

KN:

(1) We observe that all As are caused by Bs.

ID as it really is:

(1)  For all As whose provenance is actually known, the cause of A was B. 

Here “A” could be complex specified information or irreducible complexity.

B, of course, stands for “the act of an intelligent agent.”

In step 1 KN is actually not far off the mark.  I have reworded it slightly, because ID does not posit there is no possible explanation for A other than B.  ID posits that in our universal experience of A where its provenance has been actually observed, it has always arisen from B.  Now, there may be some other cause of A (Neo-Darwinian evolution – NDE – for instance), but the conclusion that NDE causes A arises from an inference not an observation.  “NDE caused A” is not just any old inference.  We would argue that it is an inference skewed by an a priori commitment to metaphysical materialism and not necessarily an unbiased evaluation of the data.  

KN:

(2) Cs are similar to As in relevant respects.

ID as it really is:

(2)  We observe A to exist within living systems. 

In (2) KN starts to go off the rails in a serious way.  Here we have the tired old “ID is nothing by an argument from analogy” argument.  KN is saying that the complex specified information in a cell is “similar in relevant respects” to the complex specified information found, for example, in a language or a code.  He is saying that the irreducible complexity of any number of biological systems is “similar in relevant respects” to the irreducible complexity of machines. 

No sir.  That is not what ID posits at all, not even close.  ID posits that the complex specified information in a cell is identical to the complex specified information of a computer code.  The DNA code is not “like” a computer code.  The DNA code and a computer code are two manifestations of the same thing.  The irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum is identical to (not similar to) the irreducible complexity of an outboard motor.  

ID proponents obviously have the burden of demonstrating their claims.  For example, they have the burden of demonstrating that the DNA code and a computer code are identical in relevant respects.  And if you disagree with their conclusions that is fair enough.  Tell us why.  But it is not fair to attempt to refute ID by attacking a claim ID proponents do not make.

KN:

(3) Therefore, it is highly probable that Cs are also caused by Bs. 

ID as it really is:

(3)  Therefore, abductive reasoning leads to the conclusion that B is the best explanation of A. 

The Wikipedia article on abductive reasoning is quite good.  [I have changed the symbols to correspond with our discussion]: 

to abduce a hypothetical explanation “B” from an observed surprising circumstance “A” is to surmise that “B” may be true because then “A” would be a matter of course. Thus, to abduce B from A involves determining that B is sufficient (or nearly sufficient), but not necessary, for A.

For example, the lawn is wet. But if it rained last night, then it would be unsurprising that the lawn is wet. Therefore, by abductive reasoning, the possibility that it rained last night is reasonable. . . . abducing rain last night from the observation of the wet lawn can lead to a false conclusion. In this example, dew, lawn sprinklers, or some other process may have resulted in the wet lawn, even in the absence of rain.

[Philosopher Charles Sanders] Peirce argues that good abductive reasoning from A to B involves not simply a determination that, e.g., B is sufficient for A, but also that B is among the most economical explanations for A. Simplification and economy call for the ‘leap’ of abduction.

For what seems like the ten thousandth time:  ID does not posit that the existence of complex specified information and irreducibly complex structures within living systems compels “act of an intelligent agent” as a matter of logical necessity.  ID posits that given our universal experience concerning complex specified information and irreducibly complex structures where the provenance of such has been actually observed, the best explanation of the existence of these same things in living structures is “act of intelligent agent.” 

KN, I hope this helps.  If you disagree with any of the premises or the abuction that we say follows from the premises, by all means attack them with abandon.  But please don’t attack an argument we do not make.  That just wastes everyone’s time. 

 

 

 

Comments
Did I miss the post where RDFish describes our uniform and repeated experience of space-alien copy machines with unlimited paper and toner? I guess it's a "better" explanation if you have nothing else. Let's also note that it fails to account for the origin of information on earth post the first cell.Mung
October 25, 2013
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Brent, good notes. The issue seems to have been raised by Nagel. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2013
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Can God build a boulder so large that he cannot move it?
What needs to be asked when this is brought up is "Should God's omnipotence allow Him to do the logically impossible?" If your interlocutor says yes, the argument is over. Just tell them that God can and can't, both. If they say no, then show that the question is asking the logically impossible; i.e., can something be better than the best? And the absurd; can omnipotence be more omnipotent than omnipotence? You may add, then, that the answer is "No." But point out that it in no way limits God. He can make bigger, more dense, or any other sort of rock, but also always lift it. Then, ask them how God is limited if He can continue on forever making rocks and lifting them?Brent
October 25, 2013
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RDF:
RDF: You would be a lot better off if you did what scientists did, and what I did in your wife-beating example. Simply tell the truth about our experience, and then look at the implications, and if there is a misconstrual of your answer, simply correct it.
No, I wouldn't be a lot better off. The uniform and repeated experience on this message board is that correcting misconstruals will be met by you the same way as anything else: You'll reframe to your liking, and agree to disagree. Not wanting to break form, apparently, you do exactly that immediately after telling me how I would be better off.
Phin: Your resort to an empirical argument…
RDF: Hahaha. If you would like to agree that ID is not based on empirical evidence, I’ll be happy to accept that too!
This is sophistry. It is bad form. It is disingenuous. It is not funny. It dodges the point instead of responding to it. You know that I have agreed to no such thing, yet pretend as though I had. Sadly, it appears to be the only way you know to avoid admitting your argument has been defeated six ways to Sunday. It is exactly the same as the following, and thus holds exactly the same weight.
RDF: I answered “No, I have not stopped beating my wife”, because I wanted to answer your question directly and honestly.
Phin: Hahaha. If you want to admit that you will continue beating your wife, I guess I'll just have to accept that!
If all you have is re-framing another's argument so that you can ridicule it, then you don't have an argument of your own...at least not one in which you have any confidence. Unless and until you actually address the points I made in my rebuttal, they still stand untouched.
RDF: Sorry, but this really is utter nonsense. Nothing about my argument suffers from regress of course – I simply point out that ID’s hypothesis either fails to explain the ultimate origin of CSI for the first cell and fails to best explain life on Earth (if ID posits an embodied designer), or it contradicts our experience (if it posits disembodied intelligence). That is my argument.
No, this is utter nonsense, as I clearly showed in the FRED THEORY analogy. ID does not posit an embodied designer or a disembodied intelligence any more than FRED THEORY posits an empty or a full swimming pool. I totally get that you want ID to posit this in order that your argument is not shown to be completely irrelevant, just like the RDF in my analogy wanted FRED THEORY to posit something about swimming pools so that his argument was not completely irrelevant. In both cases, however, the argument really is completely and utterly irrelevant. The irrelevancy of your insistence that ID must posit either an embodied designer or a disembodied intelligence has been exposed over and over again, but I'll include the UB quote here once more (though I don't doubt that you'll ignore it) because I like it so much.
UB: Yet, as has been succinctly pointed out to you, the inference to design (i.e. “the ID hypothesis”) is not dependent upon the nature of the designer. The inference is both complete and coherent without any such reference, and thus, there is no contradiction. If it should come to pass that at some future date we find that a bodily entity originated life on earth, or alternatively, that a “disembodied” entity did it, neither of these would ... alter our original inference to design. This simple fact decimates the position you’ve argued for.
ID is more than adequate to explaining the origin of the cellular life we observe in our uniform and repeated experience as you, yourself, have admitted. And this is all that ID attempts to do.
Phin: And if you do step outside the evidence-based approach,…
RDF: My argument is purely about empirical evidence; I have no interest in debating theology or philosophy here.
Oh, I totally get that you would rather try to protect your argument from getting crushed by rational debate. Unfortunately for you, your weak empirical argument only ends up being completely and utterly irrelevant to ID's claims.
RDF: The intellectually honest response in these cases is “I DO NOT KNOW”. I understand that most people are uncomfortable admitting ignorance, but I believe it is a very important thing to be able to do. RDF: YES! This is the correct answer when it comes to explaining the origin of life. Do you agree?
When limiting oneself to an empirical argument, of course one would have to say that we do not know, since empirical arguments rest on probabilities. Still, when it comes to explaining the origin of life, the ID inference to a designing intelligence clearly wins out over all other plausible explanations available to us. Wouldn't you agree?Phinehas
October 25, 2013
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SA: That would indeed be interesting. KF PS: You may want to look at the follow up thread.kairosfocus
October 25, 2013
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KF: 850
We have experience of self-aware, conscious intelligences with capacities not shown to be reducible to processing. We see that many such commonly USE brains etc, but by no means do we have good warrant to infer that such must use brains or fail to function.
That's right. The question under consideration is "what does it mean to design something?" By definition, design means "to purpose" something. To intend. Design is necessarily deliberate, non-accidental, not a function of deterministic (natural) laws. There are three views. 1. Mind = brain. Determinism. Design cannot not exist. Everything moves necessarily by accident or law (cannot be purposeful). 2. Mind necessarily dependent on brain. Dualism. There is mind and there is brain. Two things. Mind is immaterial, but necessarily dependent on physical matter. 3. Mind independent/uses brain. Dualism. I think we know which of those 3 options has been proposed. Only two of them permit the possibility of design (deliberate, purposeful, intention). If #2 -- where is the empirical proof that an immaterial "design function" (mind) is necessarily dependent on the physical? At this point, we should start asking for scientific papers in support of that proposal. Purpose and intention arising from non-purpose and determinism. Proof? Or ... Peer reviewed papers showing a non-physical mind necessarily dependent on matter. That would bring us a little closer to seeing "our uniform and repeated experience".Silver Asiatic
October 25, 2013
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RDF, Re the astronaut boot scum theory:
RDFish: Contrary to the claim of ID, I claim that the best explanation of the origin of the information in the first living thing on Earth is that it came from another planet. It is a very poor explanation, but it is still the best one we have, because it is the simplest and most consistent with our experience.
Red herring, led away to a strawman. The issue is not where the life on earth originated, but how the FSCO/I in it originated. Our experience -- as again outlined above, amply confirms that there is but one credible source of FSCO/I, design. So, on seeing it, we have every right to make that inference. Next, on your adjusted claim:
Is it the case, or is it NOT the case, that every intelligent agent in our uniform and repeated experience relies in part on CSI-rich systems in order to produce other CSI-rich systems? (where “intelligent agent” is defined as “that which [may] cause CSI”)
The answer has been given over the span of hundreds of comments, repeatedly. That is, there is simply no such uniform and repeated experience. We have experience of self-aware, conscious intelligences with capacities not shown to be reducible to processing. We see that many such commonly USE brains etc, but by no means do we have good warrant to infer that such must use brains or fail to function. Where, there is no good empirically grounded account of how self aware reflective mind can and does emerge from processing, especially by incremental chance variation written software that has functional advantages step by step leading to differential reproductive success and culminating inte4h emergence of a self aware mind. In addition, as has been pointed out but ignored or brushed aside, millions report the life-transforming effects of encounter with the mind and heart of God. Where also, the evidence of fine tuning and contingency of the observed universe point to arguably the best explanation being a purposeful, designing mind of a necessary being, which is necessarily immaterial (as matter is inherently contingent). All of this has been repeatedly outlined explained in brief and linked onwards, just -- sadly, predictably -- studiously ignored along the lines of the evil counsel in Wilson's The Arte of Rhetorique to pass by material matters you do not wish to address as though such do not exist. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2013
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Phineas: But you seem to prefer being selective in your skepticism. RFish: No, I’m really not. Did I mention that I don’t think abiogenesis or evolution is a successful, empirically supported theory of origins either?
That's the problem. You rightly conclude that abiogenesis and evolution are not successful. But then you assert that theories on mind-brain (intelligence-physical) dependence are so certain that they are "our uniform and repeated experience". There is as much (maybe more) empirical evidence in support of evolution as there is for mind-brain dependence theories. 99% of biologists affirm evolution. You reject it. 50% of neuro-scientists affirm mind-physicalism. You affirm it as virtually certain (admitting no counter-evidence). That's selective skepticism.Silver Asiatic
October 25, 2013
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PS: Let me note that one of the contexts of reasoning is that we observe and characterise three major relevant causal factors: chance, mechanical necessity, design or art. Each often leaves empirically detectable characteristic traces: necessity --> natural lawlike regularity, chance --> stochastic distributions, design --> FSCO/I. Where, two or more may jointly act but these traces may be identified on a per aspect basis, e,g. in analysing a student lab exercise plotted graph of a pendulum where we see scatter, a law and maybe where the student indulged in "cooking" to make it match the simple formula when the swings were too large for it to conform. The further point, being that FSCO/I reflects how requisites of organised function confine successful configs to narrow zones in much larger config spaces (of order 10^150 possibilities for just 500 bits, on up). So, we have an analytical reason to support the empirical point that blind chance and/or necessity will not credibly be able to find narrow zones of function in seas of non-functional configs. Art routinely does, through skill, knowledge, insight and imagination.kairosfocus
October 25, 2013
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F/N: Am I the only one to notice the irony in how RDF nipped from my repeated comment in 834, in his 836, then has continued to duck and dodge aside to continue strawman caricatures until we have now reached 846?
KF, 834: So far, no serious grappling from RDF. RDF, 836: Sorry, won’t have a chance to get the keyboard for awhile. More grappling later tonight
Let's clip and carry forward what he has so studiously ignored: ++++++ 834 kairosfocus October 24, 2013 at 4:43 pm F/N: let us bring forward the studiously ignored from 818, RDF having done as predicted: _________ >> 818 kairosfocusOctober 24, 2013 at 3:52 am F/N: re RDF to SA, 804: until we obtain specific evidence of some intelligent entity that designed life here, ID will not be an empirically supported result. Classic selective hyperskepticism. As in, I know we do not directly access the remote past, so for what I don’t like I effectively demand to ignore the evidence and logic we do have in favour of demanding what I know we do not have. Where, all along, I am (probably) perfectly willing to go along with any number of claims from the dominant school of thought that do not pass the vera causa test of actually showing that proposed mechanisms can actually cause observed effects. Ironically, it appears just after my repeating at 803 of a skeletonised laying out of the way in which empirically warranted signs of design ground the reasonable evidence-based inference that entities with such features were designed. Design, for good reason, being habitually associated with designers and serving as evidence that they exist. Morris Cargill used to talk about logic with a swivel . . . Okay, let us look at that skeletonised case again — knowing that on track record RDF is likely to studiously ignore it. (As in, if you really want to get out of a hole you have fallen into, you should stop digging in deeper and deeper.) Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more: 803 kairosfocus October 23, 2013 at 4:53 pm F/N: It is worth drawing attention again to an outline argument last presented at 762 a few hours ago and (predictably) ignored by RDF: __________ >>762 kairosfocus October 23, 2013 at 11:14 am F/N 5: let us apply the logic now, by making substitution instances: a: The actual past (or some other unobserved event, entity or phenomenon . . . ) A leaves traces t [= FSCO/I where we did not directly observe the causal process, say in the DNA of the cell], which we observe. b: We observe a cause C [= design, or purposefully directed contingency] that produces consequence s [= directly observed cases of creation of FSCO/I, say digital code in software, etc] which is materially similar to t [= the DNA of the cell] c: We identify that on empirical investigation and repeated observation, s [= FSCO/I] reliably results from C [= design, or purposefully directed contingency]. d: C [= design, or purposefully directed contingency] is ALSO the only empirically warranted source of s [= FSCO/I] . _____________________________ e: C [= design, or purposefully directed contingency] is the best explanation for t [= FSCO/I where we did not directly observe the causal process, say in the DNA of the cell], viewed here as an instance of s [= FSCO/I]. The chain of reasoning should be clear enough. Notice, at no point does the question as to whether designers, the generally observed source of FSCO/I are embodied or depend on brains to carry out design functions. So long as an entity can create directed contingent outcomes, it is capable of design. We do commonly observe embodied designers, literally from the inside out. Namely our selves. We observe similar creatures and for good reason accept they are minded too, not zombies. However there is no credible basis of observations for showing that the phenomena of conscious, self-aware, insightful thought, deciding, and the like, can and do emerge from the mechanical action of organised components and associated processing of software sequences, loops cases etc, whether using fluidic or electronic logic gates or neurons and ion flows, or relays or shafts and cogs such as in a mill (or an analogue computer) etc. That is there is no good observational basis for equating brain to mind or asserting that mind is an empiphenomenon or emergent effect of brain. This is commonly believed by those wedded to implicit or explicit a priori materialism, but that is a very different thing. Similarly, we do have the evidence of a fine tuned, contingent cosmos that points on the logic of best explanation to root source in a necessary being — by direct implication immaterial as matter as we observe it is contingent — with the power, skill, knowledge and intent to form such a cosmos. Thus, there is observationally grounded reason to accept at lest the possibility of an immaterial mind. Once such a possibility is at the table as of right not sufferance, no one can properly assert that our uniform experience supports that an intelligent, minded entity must be embodied or have or use a physical brain or the substantially equivalent. The soul, manifested through mind, is still very much in business. >> __________ Let us see if RDF will actually prove my expectation — studious ignoring of well-merited correction — wrong. For his sake, I hope so. >> _____ So far, no serious grappling from RDF. ++++++ It is always interesting to note what a clever rhetor studiously ignores, isn't it. KFkairosfocus
October 25, 2013
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PS: One more thing from that review, on Nagel's rejection of design theory and his alternative. Nicholson:
[Nagel] asks what reason there can be for the existence of consciousness. He rules out intelligent design and God, and even evolution. Nagel concludes, in a vein similar to the German idealist philosophers of the late 18th and early 19th century, that the nature of reality is such that there is a natural progression towards consciousness . . . . What sort of explanations are there for human consciousness? One is that there is some God or supernatural entity out there who endowed us with consciousness. But this explanation comes with its own vast set of problems. What is the explanation for God’s existence? Is he a part of nature? If not how can he cause things? Is he omnipotent? Can he create a boulder so big he can’t move it, and so on. Another explanation looks to the theory of evolution. Darwin’s account of evolution, broadly speaking, says that animals’ traits will largely be determined by the environment they have existed in—namely the traits that allow one organism to survive and reproduce rather than another. Thicker furs in colder climates and sharper teeth for carnivores are good examples of adaptive traits. Consciousness could be like teeth or fur; a trait that allowed our ancestors to survive and reproduce. However, the principle of sufficient reason resurfaces. What does being conscious add, in terms of pure adaptability, over and above having really good adaptive behavioural patters? Why aren’t we unconscious primates who unreflectively go about our business? Seeing these problems Nagel concludes that the Darwinian answer is irreparably flawed. Ruling out divine intervention or design, evolution, and inexplicability, what reason is there left to explain consciousness? The only remaining answer, Nagel argues, is that on a fundamental level there is an end towards which the cosmos is naturally inclined: a natural teleology. Part of this natural teleology is a tendency for there to be creatures that are conscious. The universe, in a way of speaking, wants to become conscious. This conclusion may look no less strange or absurd than when I first introduced it, but it is at least clear that Nagel did
It is ironic to see that neither Nagel nor the reviewer were evidently aware that they inadvertently spoke to design and fine tuning of the world by a sort of front-loading. In short, design is not so easily got rid of. Nor is God. Can God build a boulder so large that he cannot move it? No, as he creates the whole world in which rocks and space to move such are possible. Does that mean that God is not omnipotent (after all this is intended as a dilemma, with either fork unacceptable)? No, as properly understood, divine omnipotence only means that God can do anything he wills consistent with his nature and character. For instance, an inherently good God cannot lie as that is inconsistent with his character, even as the Judaeo-Christian scriptures both say and imply. Likewise, he cannot create a square circle or the like, as such would be impossible beings, they cannot exist. The question is -- ironically -- ill formed and not sufficiently reflective. And so forth.kairosfocus
October 25, 2013
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SB: There are many reasons to believe that life on earth was designed, just as there are many good reasons to believe that the conditions that made life possible were designed. RDF:
Whatever “reasons” you may have, none of them consist of empirical evidence.
All my reasons are based on empirical evidence. Your faith in ET ancestor theory, on the other hand, is based on rationalization, wishful thinking, and anti-ID ideology.StephenB
October 25, 2013
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RDF:
Stop playing around with the words and either find an actual argument here or just give up.
I am not the one who prefers ET-ancestor theory, for which there is no evidence, over intelligent design, for which there is much evidence. I am not the one who, gullibly and enthusiastically, thinks that computers can reflect on themselves and practice introspection.StephenB
October 25, 2013
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RDF:
Is it the case, or is it NOT the case, that every intelligent agent in our uniform and repeated experience relies in part on CSI-rich systems in order to produce other CSI-rich systems? (where “intelligent agent” is defined as “that which causes CSI”)?
Usually this seems to be the case, but there are exceptions, including the testimony of seers, saints, mystics, and resuscitated patients who have touched the next world in near-death experiences. Is it the case, or is it not the case, that every intelligent agent in our uniform and repeated experience relies, in part, on an immaterial mind in order to produce CSI-rich systems?
And you still haven’t actually addressed why ET-ancestor theory is not better than either ET-engineer theory or Non-living-engineer theory.
What is it about the words "there is considerable evidence for a designing mind and no evidence whatsoever for ET-ancestor theory" that you do not understand?StephenB
October 25, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
RDF: Contrary to the claim of ID, I claim that the best explanation of the origin of the information in the first living thing on Earth is that it came from another planet. It is a very poor explanation, but it is still the best one we have, because it is the simplest and most consistent with our experience. SB: It is a poor explanation because there is no reason to believe that it is true.
Well, yes. We certainly have no evidence of extra-terrestrial life forms.
There are many reasons to believe that life on earth was designed, just as there are many good reasons to believe that the conditions that made life possible were designed.
Whatever "reasons" you may have, none of them consist of empirical evidence. You have no evidence of extra-terrestrial life forms, nor of extra-terrestrial life forms that are intelligent enough to design other living things, nor of things that are intelligent enough to design life forms but are not life forms themselves. Those are the possibilities, and you have no evidence for any of them. Here they are, along with undeniable facts that make it clear ET-ancestor is actually the least-worst theory we have. 1) ET-ancestor theory: Terrestrial life is descendent from life on another planet. On the plus side, we know that all life does indeed reproduce and adapt, and we know that there are lots of other planets in the galaxy/universe similar to Earth. On the negative side, we have no evidence that ET life has ever existed, and this theory also leaves the existence of ET life unexplained, which makes this a BAD THEORY. 2) ET-engineer theory: Terrestrial life was engineered by life forms on another planet. On the plus side, we know that life forms can be intelligent and design things. On the negative side, we have no evidence that ET life has ever existed, and this theory leaves the existence of ET life unexplained, and we must make yet another unsupported assumption compared to ET-ancestor theory, which is that ET’s not only have to exist, but they also have to be more advanced at bio-engineering than human beings, which makes this theory even less probable than (1). WORSE THEORY 3) Non-living-thing-engineer theory: Terrestrial life was engineered by something that was not in fact a life form at all. This is just a terrible theory, having all the problems of (2), but adding to that we have to believe that, contrary to our experience, something that was non-living could perform tasks like living things do (for which there is no evidence), and manage to produce novel life forms from scratch. WORST THEORY
RDF: Is it the case, or is it NOT the case, that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity? SB: No, it is not the case. When you say it “IS” a CSI-rich physical entity (as opposed to an intelligent agent) you are defining its essence as something physical, as opposed to merely describing one its physical attribute(s).
Are you still playing word games? It stil won't help you I'm afraid. I will reword this too and it won't change a thing: Is it the case, or is it NOT the case, that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is an entity whose intelligence relies in part on CSI-rich physical systems? Happy?
In your case, you seek (perhaps unconsciously) to stack the deck with a materialist monist bias. What would happen to your argument is we defined the source of intelligent action as a composite of body and soul. That would be a dualist definition (also a more accurate definition, I believe, since it accounts for both mind and brain) but it would also be stacking the deck against you, assuring your rapid defeat if you were foolish enough to accept those conditions.
Huh? This wouldn't change my argument at all course... unless maybe you decide to define "soul" as "Something created by the same thing that created the universe and first life and all CSI" or something. If you define soul as immaterial mind - res cogitans if you'd like - then my argument is completely unaffected.
Even so, you hope we are foolish enough to accept your biased definitions,
Huh? What definition of anything am I being biased about? You really are just blathering here, Stephen! Tell me what definition I'm using is biased. All I do is ask you for any definition you'd like to use, and I instantly adopt all of your definitions! Then you call my definitions biased? Wow!!
In fact, the only neutral definition for the cause of CSI is an intelligent agent. That language speaks neither of body or soul, mind or spirit. That is precisely why you don’t like it. It can’t be manipulated.
Huh? You want to use the term "intelligent agent", defined as "the cause of CSI"? Fine, no problem: Is it the case, or is it NOT the case, that every intelligent agent in our experience relies in part on CSI-rich systems in order to produce other CSI-rich systems? What other words would you like to change or redefine, Stephen? :-)
On the other hand, if you say that the source of intelligent action IS a CSI-rich physical entity, you are saying, implicitly, that the source is NOT a spiritual entity.
We've already dropped that part! No problem!
You are also intruding monistic metaphysics into what ought to be a scientific discussion and trying to guarantee a favorable outcome for your argument even before you enter the arena. You do this at every level and with every strategically driven phrase, though you do not seem to realize it.
Utter nonsense! Here is a form of the proposition that addresses all of your complaints: Is it the case, or is it NOT the case, that every intelligent agent in our uniform and repeated experience relies in part on CSI-rich systems in order to produce other CSI-rich systems? (where "intelligent agent" is defined as "that which causes CSI") All that dancing around and juggling words, and my argument hasn't changed a bit. And you still haven't actually addressed why ET-ancestor theory is not better than either ET-engineer theory or Non-living-engineer theory. Stop playing around with the words and either find an actual argument here or just give up. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 25, 2013
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RDFish:
Contrary to the claim of ID, I claim that the best explanation of the origin of the information in the first living thing on Earth is that it came from another planet. It is a very poor explanation, but it is still the best one we have, because it is the simplest and most consistent with our experience.
It is a poor explanation because there is no reason to believe that it is true. There are many reasons to believe that life on earth was designed, just as there are many good reasons to believe that the conditions that made life possible were designed.
Is it the case, or is it NOT the case, that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity?
No, it is not the case. When you say it "IS" a CSI-rich physical entity (as opposed to an intelligent agent) you are defining its essence as something physical, as opposed to merely describing one its physical attribute(s). Indeed, it is a materialist monist definition. We cannot DEFINE the source as a CSI-rich physical entity because definitions logically negate what they do not affirm. To define man as a rational animal, for example, or to say that he IS a rational animal, is to negate the possibility that he is innately irrational or the possibility that he could be an angel. Yes, man possess attributes such as a heart and a spleen, but he IS neither a heart nor a spleen, and if he is defined that way, all rational discourse about the subject will end. Yes, intelligent agents possess CSI-rich mechanisms, but if we define them that way, rationality comes to an end. In your case, you seek (perhaps unconsciously) to stack the deck with a materialist monist bias. What would happen to your argument is we defined the source of intelligent action as a composite of body and soul. That would be a dualist definition (also a more accurate definition, I believe, since it accounts for both mind and brain) but it would also be stacking the deck against you, assuring your rapid defeat if you were foolish enough to accept those conditions. Even so, you hope we are foolish enough to accept your biased definitions, and one way to snare a fool is to deny the definitional aspects of a definitional statement. In fact, the only neutral definition for the cause of CSI is an intelligent agent. That language speaks neither of body or soul, mind or spirit. That is precisely why you don't like it. It can't be manipulated. On the other hand, if you say that the source of intelligent action IS a CSI-rich physical entity, you are saying, implicitly, that the source is NOT a spiritual entity. You are also intruding monistic metaphysics into what ought to be a scientific discussion and trying to guarantee a favorable outcome for your argument even before you enter the arena. You do this at every level and with every strategically driven phrase, though you do not seem to realize it.StephenB
October 24, 2013
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F/N: Underlying much of the above is the basic notion that we are merely bodies in motion with an organ that carries out computation, the brain. We are colloidal intelligences, and in this context RDF/AIG asserts confidently that our universal and repeated experience of the causing of FSCO/I embeds that embodiment. To see what is fundamentally flawed about such a view, as I have pointed out above but again need to summarise, I think we have to start from the issue of mindedness, and from our actual experience of mindedness. For it simply does not fit the materialist model, which lacks an empirically warranted causal dynamic demonstrated to be able to do the job -- ironically for reasons connected to the inductive evidence rooted grounds of the design inference. (No wonder RDF/AIG is so eager to be rid of that inconvenient induction.) The mind, in this view is the software of the brain which, in effect by sufficiently sophisticated looping has become reflexive and self aware. This draws on the institutional dominance of the a priori evolutionary materialist paradigm in our day, but that means as well, that it collapses into the inescapable self-referential incoherence of that view. It also fails to meet the tests of factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. Why do I say such? First, let us observe a sobering point made ever so long ago by Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
In essence, without responsible freedom (the very opposite of what would be implied by mechanical processing and chance) there is no basis for rationality, responsibility and capacity to think beyond the determination of the accidents of our programming. No tot mention, ther eis no empirically based demonstration of the capability of blind chance and mechanical necessity to incrementally write teh required complex software through incremental chance variations and differential reproductive success. All that is simply assumed, explicitly or implicitly in a frame of thought controlled by evolutionary materialism as an a priori. So, we have a lack of demonstrated causal adequacy problem right at the outset. (Not that that will be more than a speed-bump for those determined to proceed under the materialist reigning orthodoxy. But we should note that the vera causa principle has been violated, we do not have empirically demonstrated causal adequacy here. By contrast such brain software as is doubtless there, is blatantly chock full of FSCO/I, and the hardware involved is likewise chock full of the same. The only empirically warranted cause adequate to create such -- whether or not RDF likes to bury it in irrelevancies -- is design. We must not forget that inconvenient fact. [And we will in due course again speak to the issue as to whether empirical evidence warrants the conclusion that designing minds must be based on or require brains.]) A good second point is a clip from Malcolm Nicholson's review of the eminent philospher Nagel's recent Mind and Cosmos:
If we’re to believe [materialism dominated] science, we’re made of organs and cells. These cells are made up of organic matter. Organic matter is made up chemicals. This goes all the way down to strange entities like quarks and Higgs bosons. We’re also conscious, thinking things. You’re reading these words and making sense of them. We have the capacity to reason abstractly and grapple with various desires and values. It is the fact that we’re conscious and rational that led us to believe in things like Higgs bosons in the first place. But what if [materialism-dominated] science is fundamentally incapable of explaining our own existence as thinking things? What if it proves impossible to fit human beings neatly into the world of subatomic particles and laws of motion that [materialism-dominated] science describes? In Mind and Cosmos (Oxford University Press), the prominent philosopher Thomas Nagel’s latest book, he argues that science alone will never be able to explain a reality that includes human beings. What is needed is a new way of looking at and explaining reality; one which makes mind and value as fundamental as atoms and evolution . . . . [I]t really does feel as if there is something “it-is-like” to be conscious. Besides their strange account of consciousness, Nagel’s opponents also face the classic problem of how something physical like a brain can produce something like a mind. Take perception: photons bounce off objects and hit the eye, cones and rods translate this into a chemical reaction, this reaction moves into the neurons in our brain, some more reactions take place and then…you see something. Everything up until seeing something is subject to scientific laws, but, somewhere between neurons and experience, scientific explanation ends. There is no fact of the matter about how you see a chair as opposed to how I see it, or a colour-blind person sees it. The same goes for desires or emotions. We can look at all the pieces leading up to experience under a microscope, but there’s no way to look at your experience itself or subject it to proper scientific scrutiny. Of course philosophers sympathetic to [materialism-dominated] science have many ways to make this seem like a non-problem. But in the end Nagel argues that simply “the mind-body problem is difficult enough that we should be suspicious of attempts to solve it with the concepts and methods developed to account for very different kinds of things.”
In short, it is not just a bunch of dismissible IDiots off in some blog somewhere, here is a serious issue, one that cannot be so easily brushed aside and answered with the usual promissory notes on the inevitable progress of materialism-dominated science. It is worth noting also, that Nagel rests his case on the issue of sufficiency, i.e. if something A is, why -- can we not seek and expect a reasonable and adequate answer? That is a very subtly powerful self-evident first principle of right reasoning indeed [cf. here on, again] and one that many objectors to say cosmological design on fine tuning would be wise to pay heed to. Indeed, down that road lies the issue of contingency vs necessity of being, linked to the power of cause. With the astonishing results that necessary beings are possible -- start with the truth in the expression: 2 + 3 = 5 -- and by virtue of not depending on on/off enabling causal factors, they are immaterial [matter, post E = m*c^2 etc, is blatantly contingent . . . ] and without beginning or end, they could not not-exist, on pain of absurdity. (If you doubt this, try ask yourself when did 2 + 3 = 5 begin to be true, can it cease from being so, and what would follow from denying it to be true. [Brace for the shock of what lurked behind your first lessons in Arithmetic!]) And, we live in a cosmos that is -- post big bang, and post E = m*c^2 etc -- credibly contingent, so we are looking at a deep causal root of the cosmos that is a necessary being. Multiply by fine tuning [another significant little link with onward materials that has been studiously ignored above . . . ] and even through a multiverse speculation, we are looking at purpose, mind, immateriality, being without beginning or end, with knowledge, skill and power that are manifest in a fine tuned cosmos set up to facilitate C-chemistry aqueous medium cell based life. That is -- regardless of RDF's confident manner, drumbeat declarations -- it is by no means a universal, experience based conclusion that mind requires or is inevitably based on brains or some equivalent material substrate. (Yet another matter RDF seems to have studiously ignored.) Nor are we finished with that review:
In addition to all the problems surrounding consciousness, Nagel argues that things like the laws of mathematics and moral values are real (as real, that is, as cars and cats and chairs) and that they present even more problems for science. It is harder to explain these chapters largely because they followed less travelled paths of inquiry. Often Nagel’s argument rests on the assumption that it is absurd to deny the objective reality, or mind-independence, of certain basic moral values (that extreme and deliberate cruelty to children is wrong, for instance) or the laws of logic. Whether this is convincing or not, depends on what you think is absurd and what is explainable. Regardless, this gives a sense of the framework of Nagel’s argument and his general approach.
of course, the root premises here are not only true but self-evident: one denies them only at peril of absurdity. A strictly materialistic world -- whether explicit or implicit lurking in hidden assumptions and premises -- cannot ground morals [there is no matter-energy, space-time IS that can bear the wright of OUGHT, only an inherently good Creator God can do that . . . ]. Similarly, such a world runs into a basic problem with the credibility of mind, as already seen. Why, then should we even think this a serious option, given the inability to match reality, the self referential incoherence that has come out, and the want of empirically grounded explanatory and causal power to account for the phenomena we know from the inside out: we are conscious, self-aware, minded, reasoning, knowing, imagining, creative, designing creatures who find ourselves inescapably morally governed. Well, when --as we may read in Acts 17 -- Paul started on Mars Hill c AD 50 by exposing the fatally cracked root of the classical pagan and philosophical view [its publicly admitted and inescapable ignorance of the very root of being, the very first and most vital point of knowledge . . . ], he was literally laughed out of court. But, the verdict of history is in: the apostle built the future. It is time to recognise the fatal cracks in the evolutionary materialist reigning orthodoxy and its fellow travellers, whether or not they are duly dressed up in lab coats. Even, fancy ones. Time to start afresh. KFkairosfocus
October 24, 2013
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Hi StephenB,
STEPHENB’S COUNTER-ARGUMENT: Even if intelligence depends on CSI for its operation, it does not depend on CSI for its existence. Actually, you equivocate on the meaning of the word “depends on” at several levels.
Nope, I don't. It very simply means "requires" - that if you don't have any complex functional mechanism, then in our uniform and repeated experience, you don't see any intelligent behaviors. Nothing complicated about this, sorry.
It is one thing to say that intelligence depends wholly on CSI for its operation, and quite another to say that is depends partly on CSI for its operation.
I have been utterly clear about this! I have never said our experience shows that mechanism is sufficient for mind!!!!!!! I have always said that it shows the mechanism is necessary for mind!!!!!! In other words, intelligence depends either partly or wholly on CSI-rich physical mechanisms. If you'd like to insist that mind relies only partly on mechanism - be my guest! It doesn't change my argument one iota.
Again, it is one thing to say that intelligence depends on CSI for its operation and quite another thing to say that it depends on CSI for its existence.
Sorry but I don't even understand what this one means. But it doesn't matter - if it would make you happy, pick either one. No matter how you try to play with these words it doesn't matter - you still lose the argument!!! Here, watch: Experience shows intelligence depends partly on CSI-rich mechanism for its operation, but not its existence. Happy? This still implies that intelligence cannot operate without CSI-rich mechanism, which implies that intelligence cannot have caused the first CSI-rich mechanisms. Next?
Most people use language to clarify; you use it to obfuscate.
HAhahahahahaha. I'm using language very simply, and you are looking very hard for multiple meanings and arcane defintions! I used the dictionary definition for "intelligence" and you cried that I had redefined it in a bizarre way! I use the term "depends on" in the most ordinary and consistent sense, and you complain that I am equivocating! You are diving for cover underneath these semantic dodges... Come on out, Stephen, and face the music! You have stopped even trying to answer my arguments! Ok, how about just this one: RDFish: Contrary to the claim of ID, I claim that the best explanation of the origin of the information in the first living thing on Earth is that it came from another planet. It is a very poor explanation, but it is still the best one we have, because it is the simplest and most consistent with our experience. Are you even willing to argue against that simple statement? Or are you going to do one of those annoying "I'm tired of your stupidity and refuse to subject myself to this waste of time..." sort of maneuvers now? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 24, 2013
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Hi Phinehas,
RDF is basically saying it is OK for him to continue beating his wife. We’ll just have to agree to disagree about that!
Actually no. You asked me "Have you stopped beating your wife?" and I answered "No, I have not stopped beating my wife", because I wanted to answer your question directly and honestly. However, your particular restatement of my response was incorrect; My response did not mean that is OK to continue to beat my wife, and she will gladly confirm that I have never beat her. This was your misinterpretation of my response, and now I have corrected you. You could save a lot of confusion if you simply did the same thing and answered my question honestly: Is it the case, or is it NOT the case, that for every intelligent action in our experience, when we know the source, the source is a CSI-rich physical entity. If you simply refuse to answer the question, then I guess I'll just have to be happy to leave it at that: You refuse to answer that question.
Your argument is a non-sequitur. It is irrelevant to ID. It might become relevant if you could offer proof that intelligence must depend on physical CSI-rich systems, but you cannot.
Scientific theories are not "proofs". They are provisional explanations that best match the empirical evidence at hand. I've pointed out that our shared experience invariably demonstates the reliance of thought on mechanism; you refuse to confirm this, but you then refuse to deny it either. You would be a lot better off if you did what scientists did, and what I did in your wife-beating example. Simply tell the truth about our experience, and then look at the implications, and if there is a misconstrual of your answer, simply correct it.
Your resort to an empirical argument...
Hahaha. If you would like to agree that ID is not based on empirical evidence, I'll be happy to accept that too!
Even if you had a stronger empirical case, following the evidence to its logical conclusion only gets you to an infinite regress that cannot be resolved without resorting to answers outside the very evidence you’ve used to get there.
Sorry, but this really is utter nonsense. Nothing about my argument suffers from regress of course - I simply point out that ID's hypothesis either fails to explain the ultimate origin of CSI for the first cell and fails to best explain life on Earth (if ID posits an embodied designer), or it contradicts our experience (if it posits disembodied intelligence). That is my argument.
And if you do step outside the evidence-based approach,...
My argument is purely about empirical evidence; I have no interest in debating theology or philosophy here.
The intellectually honest response in these cases is “I DO NOT KNOW”. I understand that most people are uncomfortable admitting ignorance, but I believe it is a very important thing to be able to do.
YES! This is the correct answer when it comes to explaining the origin of life. Do you agree? Listen Phinehas: You don't want to answer my question because if you take the question literally and at face value and you answer honestly, you think I will try to make it look like you agreed that mind without mechanism is impossible. But that is NOT what I would do - that would be stupid of me, and you could simply call me on it. Rather, all I want to establish is that as far as our experience goes, we don't ever see mind without mechanism. That in no way precludes that when we begin to take various other arguments into account, a rational case for immaterial minds acting without mechanism might well be possible. Again: You will not be conceding that there can be no afterlife, or that God doesn't exist, or anything of the sort. Rather, you will be conceding that intelligent action absent physical mechanism does not occur in our uniform and repeated experience. No more, no less.
But you seem to prefer being selective in your skepticism.
No, I'm really not. Did I mention that I don't think abiogenesis or evolution is a successful, empirically supported theory of origins either? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 24, 2013
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Hi SirHamster,
Sorry for not making it clear, but I was following the absurd logic of claiming that both intelligent and non-intelligent causes of life are unlikely due to human “experience”.
There is nothing absurd about being unable to explain some phenomenon based on our experience. You are just wrong about that. Here is an example: Before physicists understood nuclear reactions, nobody had any idea how the Sun could generate so much light and heat without exhausting its fuel. Nothing in their experience could account for it, since everything in their experience (such as chemical oxidation reactions) was inconsistent with their observations of the Sun. In the 19th century, the correct answer was "WE DO NOT KNOW what powers the Sun!" Only when nuclear fusion finally came to be understood was there an empirically supported explanation. Likewise, there is currently nothing in our experience that successfully accounts for the origin of life. The correct answer at this juncture, then, is "WE DO NOT KNOW". Someday, perhaps, we will discover something that is not currently in our uniform and repeated experience, and then we will have an empirically supported theory. But until, of course, we can simply rely on other epistemic modes - for example, religious faith - in order to justify our belief in one answer or another.
I agree that ID is the best explanation .
ID is not an empirically supported theory at this time. Here are three alternative hypotheses, along with their strengths and weaknesses. As you can see, ID is the conjunction of the second and third hypotheses, called "ET-engineer" and "Non-living engineer", respectively. These two hypotheses are the worst of the three. The least bad hypothesis is "ET-Ancestor" theory, but that does not qualify as an empirically supported theory of origins either. 1) ET-ancestor theory: Terrestrial life is descendent from life on another planet. On the plus side, we know that all life does indeed reproduce and adapt, and we know that there are lots of other planets in the galaxy/universe similar to Earth. On the negative side, we have no evidence that ET life has ever existed, and this theory also leaves the existence of ET life unexplained, which makes this a BAD THEORY. 2) ET-engineer theory: Terrestrial life was engineered by life forms on another planet. On the plus side, we know that life forms can be intelligent and design things. On the negative side, we have no evidence that ET life has ever existed, and this theory leaves the existence of ET life unexplained, and we must make yet another unsupported assumption compared to ET-ancestor theory, which is that ET’s not only have to exist, but they also have to be more advanced at bio-engineering than human beings, which makes this theory even less probable than (1). WORSE THEORY 3) Non-living-thing-engineer theory: Terrestrial life was engineered by something that was not in fact a life form at all. This is just a terrible theory, having all the problems of (2), but adding to that we have to believe that, contrary to our experience, something that was non-living could perform tasks like living things do (for which there is no evidence), and manage to produce novel life forms from scratch. WORST THEORY Cheers, RDFishRDFish
October 24, 2013
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So far, no serious grappling from RDF.
Sorry, won't have a chance to get the keyboard for awhile. More grappling later tonight :-)RDFish
October 24, 2013
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F/N: Let us not forget the simple infographic referenced in the original post, here. (It is far more apt than its detractors, BTW.) KFkairosfocus
October 24, 2013
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F/N: let us bring forward the studiously ignored from 818, RDF having done as predicted: _________ >> 818 kairosfocusOctober 24, 2013 at 3:52 am F/N: re RDF to SA, 804: until we obtain specific evidence of some intelligent entity that designed life here, ID will not be an empirically supported result. Classic selective hyperskepticism. As in, I know we do not directly access the remote past, so for what I don’t like I effectively demand to ignore the evidence and logic we do have in favour of demanding what I know we do not have. Where, all along, I am (probably) perfectly willing to go along with any number of claims from the dominant school of thought that do not pass the vera causa test of actually showing that proposed mechanisms can actually cause observed effects. Ironically, it appears just after my repeating at 803 of a skeletonised laying out of the way in which empirically warranted signs of design ground the reasonable evidence-based inference that entities with such features were designed. Design, for good reason, being habitually associated with designers and serving as evidence that they exist. Morris Cargill used to talk about logic with a swivel . . . Okay, let us look at that skeletonised case again — knowing that on track record RDF is likely to studiously ignore it. (As in, if you really want to get out of a hole you have fallen into, you should stop digging in deeper and deeper.) Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more: 803 kairosfocus October 23, 2013 at 4:53 pm F/N: It is worth drawing attention again to an outline argument last presented at 762 a few hours ago and (predictably) ignored by RDF: __________ >>762 kairosfocus October 23, 2013 at 11:14 am F/N 5: let us apply the logic now, by making substitution instances: a: The actual past (or some other unobserved event, entity or phenomenon . . . ) A leaves traces t [= FSCO/I where we did not directly observe the causal process, say in the DNA of the cell], which we observe. b: We observe a cause C [= design, or purposefully directed contingency] that produces consequence s [= directly observed cases of creation of FSCO/I, say digital code in software, etc] which is materially similar to t [= the DNA of the cell] c: We identify that on empirical investigation and repeated observation, s [= FSCO/I] reliably results from C [= design, or purposefully directed contingency]. d: C [= design, or purposefully directed contingency] is ALSO the only empirically warranted source of s [= FSCO/I] . _____________________________ e: C [= design, or purposefully directed contingency] is the best explanation for t [= FSCO/I where we did not directly observe the causal process, say in the DNA of the cell], viewed here as an instance of s [= FSCO/I]. The chain of reasoning should be clear enough. Notice, at no point does the question as to whether designers, the generally observed source of FSCO/I are embodied or depend on brains to carry out design functions. So long as an entity can create directed contingent outcomes, it is capable of design. We do commonly observe embodied designers, literally from the inside out. Namely our selves. We observe similar creatures and for good reason accept they are minded too, not zombies. However there is no credible basis of observations for showing that the phenomena of conscious, self-aware, insightful thought, deciding, and the like, can and do emerge from the mechanical action of organised components and associated processing of software sequences, loops cases etc, whether using fluidic or electronic logic gates or neurons and ion flows, or relays or shafts and cogs such as in a mill (or an analogue computer) etc. That is there is no good observational basis for equating brain to mind or asserting that mind is an empiphenomenon or emergent effect of brain. This is commonly believed by those wedded to implicit or explicit a priori materialism, but that is a very different thing. Similarly, we do have the evidence of a fine tuned, contingent cosmos that points on the logic of best explanation to root source in a necessary being — by direct implication immaterial as matter as we observe it is contingent — with the power, skill, knowledge and intent to form such a cosmos. Thus, there is observationally grounded reason to accept at lest the possibility of an immaterial mind. Once such a possibility is at the table as of right not sufferance, no one can properly assert that our uniform experience supports that an intelligent, minded entity must be embodied or have or use a physical brain or the substantially equivalent. The soul, manifested through mind, is still very much in business. >> __________ Let us see if RDF will actually prove my expectation — studious ignoring of well-merited correction — wrong. For his sake, I hope so. >> _____ So far, no serious grappling from RDF. KF PS: SA some good stuff.kairosfocus
October 24, 2013
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What’s the difference between this and ID? You claim this organism that arrived from elsewhere was non-intelligent? So the best explanation for the origin of information in the cell is a non-intelligent organism from space? How so?
I think he's referring to the term "intelligent design" and not just something like "intelligent origin", or "indications of purposeful intelligence" If ID's claim is that CSI in the first cell on earth proves that it was "designed". Then the argument of an ET being bringing first life to earth would refute that, unless the ET or someone else "designed" the first cell. I pointed out that "design" more correctly refers to "purpose" and not "built" or "crafted". A better argument is that it's not about the first cell on earth -- but any complex functional organism anywhere. All materialists have to do is show how it can be built through accident and chemistry.Silver Asiatic
October 24, 2013
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Your argument is a non-sequitur. It is irrelevant to ID. It might become relevant if you could offer proof that intelligence must depend on physical CSI-rich systems, but you cannot. Your resort to an empirical argument does further damage to your cause, since (provided you do not assume materialism) contrary evidence prevents you from being able to make anything but a very weak appeal to uniform and repeated experience (as in, not really uniform at all).
Exactly. RDFish's argument falls apart right there. I also agree that additional proof of that fact is the twisting and re-framing of what people actually said when claiming to state the counter-argument. I will give RDF credit for recognizing the ineptness of materialism, chemial OOL theories and evolution. He's a rare thinker (from his metaphysical perspective) on all of these issues. That is great. But there's a blind spot. The design-from-intelligence argument is both empirically based, and logically irrefutable. A complex functional mechanism operates for an end - a purpose, with precisely coordinated dependencies. And all of that requires intelligence. The argument doesn't even need empirical proof because it's virtually true by definition. But for the skeptics out there, we could do an empirical observation of every complex mechanism where we know the origin and prove the argument. It's both logically and empirically certain. It's our "uniform and repeated experience". That's what Meyer is talking about. Comparing the unchallenged certainty of the design argument (evolution has no evidence to challenge it) with speculations based on statistical correlations about unobservable mental phenomena -- and calling them both "our uniform and repeated experience" is absurd. It takes a lot of rhetorical trickery to avoid that problem. But that's the argument. There's a huge investment in the mind-dependent-on-physical -- which lacks direct empirical evidence and has counter-evidence that serious scientists admit. But following that, there's a complete denial that there is any empirical evidence at all of intelligence in the origin of the mathematically precise fine-tuning of the universe. It's simply not a reasonable position. Einstein saw the connection -- so there's really no problem here.
selective in your skepticism
That's it.Silver Asiatic
October 24, 2013
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RDFish @ 813/815:
The most probable explanation for the origin of the information in the first living cell on Earth is that it came from some other organism elsewhere.
What's the difference between this and ID? You claim this organism that arrived from elsewhere was non-intelligent? So the best explanation for the origin of information in the cell is a non-intelligent organism from space? How so?Mung
October 24, 2013
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RDF: This is very bad form.
RDF: Your final rebuttal to my argument is...[RDF re-frames to something other than what I said]. I am very happy to agree to disagree about this!
You do this quite often, as I've tried to point out more humorously, but it isn't really a nice thing to do. This is no different than me stating: RDF is basically saying it is OK for him to continue beating his wife. We'll just have to agree to disagree about that! When stating what someone's rebuttal is, I'd encourage you to use their words and not your own. When you feel the need to re-frame what someone else has argued, it may well be an indication that you are not at all happy to agree to disagree with what they've actually said. Still, if you are looking for final rebuttals, here you go. Your argument is a non-sequitur. It is irrelevant to ID. It might become relevant if you could offer proof that intelligence must depend on physical CSI-rich systems, but you cannot. Your resort to an empirical argument does further damage to your cause, since (provided you do not assume materialism) contrary evidence prevents you from being able to make anything but a very weak appeal to uniform and repeated experience (as in, not really uniform at all). Even if you had a stronger empirical case, following the evidence to its logical conclusion only gets you to an infinite regress that cannot be resolved without resorting to answers outside the very evidence you've used to get there. And if you do step outside the evidence-based approach, your argument gets absolutely crushed by rational debate. At this point, it would be very appropriate to admit concerning your claim that intelligence depends upon physical CSI-rich systems:
The intellectually honest response in these cases is “I DO NOT KNOW”. I understand that most people are uncomfortable admitting ignorance, but I believe it is a very important thing to be able to do.
But you seem to prefer being selective in your skepticism.Phinehas
October 24, 2013
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But such a cell would have to be disembodied and not made of matter at all and we have no uniform and repeated experience of disembodied cells. Therefore ID IS the better explanation.
Sorry for not making it clear, but I was following the absurd logic of claiming that both intelligent and non-intelligent causes of life are unlikely due to human "experience". Leads directly to a conclusion that contradicts the "human experience shows disembodied intelligence unlikely" premise. I agree that ID is the best explanation .SirHamster
October 24, 2013
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f/n: because ID does not depend on disembodied cells giving rise to CSI-rich mechanized embodied cells.Mung
October 24, 2013
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RDF:
Ok, StephenB… is this your final answer???
It depends on which of your errors we are talking about. Please don't expect me to refute all of them with a single answer or hit moving targets while standing still.
RDF: STEPHENB’S COUNTER-ARGUMENT: Even if intelligence depends on CSI for its operation, it does not depend on CSI for its existence.
Actually, you equivocate on the meaning of the word "depends on" at several levels. It is one thing to say that intelligence depends wholly on CSI for its operation, and quite another to say that is depends partly on CSI for its operation. Again, it is one thing to say that intelligence depends on CSI for its operation and quite another thing to say that it depends on CSI for its existence. Most people use language to clarify; you use it to obfuscate. Remember, you are the same person who argued that computers can "reflect on themselves," until we discovered that your use of the word reflect doesn't really mean reflect. Remember, you are the same person who failed to make the distinction between humans HAVING CSI, which is factual, and BEING CSI, which is simply an anti-ID fantasy that you dreamed up. And so it goes.StephenB
October 24, 2013
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