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On the non-evolution of Irreducible Complexity – How Arthur Hunt Fails To Refute Behe

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I do enjoy reading ID’s most vehement critics, both in formal publications (such as books and papers) and on the, somewhat less formal, Internet blogosphere. Part of the reason for this is that it gives one something of a re-assurance to observe the vacuous nature of many of the critics’ attempted rebuttals to the challenge offered to neo-Darwinism by ID, and the attempted compensation of its sheer lack of explicative power by the religious ferocity of the associated rhetoric (to paraphrase Lynn Margulis). The prevalent pretense that the causal sufficiency of neo-Darwinism is an open-and-shut case (when no such open-and-shut case for the affirmative exists) never ceases to amuse me.

One such forum where esteemed critics lurk is the Panda’s Thumb blog. A website devoted to holding the Darwinian fort, and one endorsed by the National Center for Selling Evolution Science Education (NCSE). Since many of the Darwinian heavy guns blog for this website, we can conclude that, if consistently demonstrably faulty arguments are common play, the front-line Darwinism defense lobby is in deep water.

Recently, someone referred me to two articles (one, two) on the Panda’s Thumb website (from back in 2007), by Arthur Hunt (professor in Department of Plant and Soil Sciences at the University of Kentucky). The first is entitled “On the evolution of Irreducible Complexity”; the second, “Reality 1, Behe 0” (the latter posted shortly following the publication of Behe’s second book, The Edge of Evolution).

The articles purport to refute Michael Behe’s notion of irreducible complexity. But, as I intend to show here, they do nothing of the kind!

In his first article, Hunt begins,

There has been a spate of interest in the blogosphere recently in the matter of protein evolution, and in particular the proposition that new protein function can evolve. Nick Matzke summarized a review (reference 1) on the subject here. Briefly, the various mechanisms discussed in the review include exon shuffling, gene duplication, retroposition, recruitment of mobile element sequences, lateral gene transfer, gene fusion, and de novo origination. Of all of these, the mechanism that received the least attention was the last – the de novo appearance of new protein-coding genes basically “from scratch”. A few examples are mentioned (such as antifreeze proteins, or AFGPs), and long-time followers of ev/cre discussions will recognize the players. However, what I would argue is the most impressive of such examples is not mentioned by Long et al. (1).

There is no need to discuss the cited Long et al. (2003) paper in any great detail here, as this has already been done by Casey Luskin here (see also Luskin’s further discussion of Anti-Freeze evolution here), and I wish to concern myself with the central element of Hunt’s argument.

Hunt continues,

Below the fold, I will describe an example of de novo appearance of a new protein-coding gene that should open one’s eyes as to the reach of evolutionary processes. To get readers to actually read below the fold, I’ll summarize – what we will learn of is a protein that is not merely a “simple” binding protein, or one with some novel physicochemical properties (like the AFGPs), but rather a gated ion channel. Specifically, a multimeric complex that: 1. permits passage of ions through membranes; 2. and binds a “trigger” that causes the gate to open (from what is otherwise a “closed” state). Recalling that Behe, in Darwin’s Black Box, explicitly calls gated ion channels IC systems, what the following amounts to is an example of the de novo appearance of a multifunctional, IC system.

Hunt is making big promises. But does he deliver? Let me briefly summarise the jist of Hunt’s argument, and then briefly weigh in on it.

The cornerstone of Hunt’s argument is principally concerned with the gene, T-urf13, which, contra Behe’s delineated ‘edge’ of evolution, is supposedly a de novo mitochondrial gene that very quickly evolved from other genes which specified rRNA, in addition to some non-coding DNA elements. The gene specifies a transmembrane protein, which aids in facilitating the passage of hydrophilic molecules across the mitochondrial membrane in maize – opening only when bound on the exterior by particular molecules.

The protein is specific to the mitochondria of maize with Texas male-sterile cytoplasm, and has also been implicated in causing male sterility and sensitivity to T-cytoplasm-specific fungal diseases. Two parts of the T-urf13 gene are homologous to other parts in the maize genome, with a further component being of unknown origin. Hunt maintains that this proves that this gene evolved by Darwinian-like means.

Hunt further maintains that the T-urf13 consists of at least three “CCCs” (recall Behe’s argument advanced in The Edge of Evolution that a double “CCC” is unlikely to be feasible by a Darwinian pathway). Two of these “CCCs”, Hunt argues, come from the binding of each subunit to at minimum two other subunits in order to form the heteromeric complex in the membrane. This entails that each respective subunit have at minimum two protein-binding sites.

Hunt argues for the presence of yet another “CCC”:

[T]he ion channel is gated. It binds a polyketide toxin, and the consequence is an opening of the channel. This is a third binding site. This is not another protein binding site, and I rather suppose that Behe would argue that this isn’t relevant to the Edge of Evolution. But the notion of a “CCC” derives from consideration of changes in a transporter (PfCRT) that alter the interaction with chloroquine; toxin binding by T-urf13 is quite analogous to the interaction between PfCRT and chloroquine. Thus, this third function of T-urf13 is akin to yet another “CCC”.

He also notes that,

It turns out that T-urf13 is a membrane protein, and in membranes it forms oligomeric structures (I am not sure if the stoichiometries have been firmly established, but that it is oligomeric is not in question). This is the first biochemical trait I would ask readers to file away – this protein is capable of protein-protein interactions, between like subunits. This means that the T-urf13 polypeptide must possess interfaces that mediate protein-protein interactions. (Readers may recall Behe and Snokes, who argued that such interfaces are very unlikely to occur by chance.)

[Note: The Behe & Snoke (2004) paper is available here, and their response (2005) to Michael Lynch’s critique is available here.]

Hunt tells us that “the protein dubbed T-urf13 had evolved, in one fell swoop by random shuffling of the maize mitochondrial genome.” If three CCC’s really evolved in “one fell swoop” by specific but random mutations, then Behe’s argument is in trouble. But does any of the research described by Hunt make any progress with regards to demonstrating that this is even plausible? Short answer: no.

Hunt does have a go of guesstimating the probabilistic plausibility of such an event of neo-functionalisation taking place. He tells us, “The bottom line – T-urf13 consists of at least three ‘CCCs’. Running some numbers, we can guesstimate that T-urf13 would need about 10^60 events of some sort in order to occur.”

Look at what Hunt concludes:

Now, recall that we are talking about, not one, but a minimum of three CCC’s. Behe says 1 in 10^60, what actually happened occurred in a total event size of less that 10^30. Obviously, Behe has badly mis-estimated the “Edge of Evolution”. Briefly stated, his “Edge of Evolution” is wrong. [Emphasis in original]

Readers trained in basic logic will take quick note of the circularity involved in this argumentation. Does Hunt offer any evidence that T-urf13 could have plausibly evolved by a Darwinian-type mechanism? No, he doesn’t. In fact, he casually dismisses the mathematics which refutes his whole argument. Here we have a system with a minimum of three CCCs, and since he presupposes as an a priori principle that it must have a Darwinian explanation, this apparently refutes Behe’s argument! This is truly astonishing argumentation. Yes, certain parts of the gene have known homologous counterparts. But, at most, that demonstrates common descent (and even that conclusion is dubious). But a demonstration of homology, or common ancestral derivation, or a progression of forms is not, in and of itself, a causal explanation. Behe himself noted in Darwin’s Black Box, “Although useful for determining lines of descent … comparing sequences cannot show how a complex biochemical system achieved its function—the question that most concerns us in this book.” Since Behe already maintains that all life is derivative of a common ancestor, a demonstration of biochemical or molecular homology is not likely to impress him greatly.

How, then, might Hunt and others successfully show Behe to be wrong about evolution? It’s very simple: show that adequate probabilistic resources existed to facilitate the plausible origin of these types of multi-component-dependent systems. If, indeed, it is the case that each fitness peak lies separated by more than a few specific mutations, it remains difficult to envision how the Darwinian mechanism might adequately facilitate the transition from one peak to another within any reasonable time frame. Douglas Axe, of the biologic institute, showed in one recent paper in the journal Bio-complexity that the model of gene duplication and recruitment only works if very few changes are required to acquire novel selectable utility or neo-functionalisation. If a duplicated gene is neutral (in terms of its cost to the organism), then the  maximum number of mutations that a novel innovation in a bacterial population can require is up to six. If the duplicated gene has a slightly negative fitness cost, the maximum number drops to two or fewer (not inclusive of the duplication itself). One other study, published in Nature in 2001 by Keefe & Szostak, documented that more than a million million random sequences were required in order to stumble upon a functioning ATP-binding protein, a protein substantially smaller than the transmembrane protein specified by the gene, T-urf13. Douglas Axe has also documented (2004), in the Journal of Molecular Biology, the prohibitive rarity of functional enzymatic binding domains with respect to the vast sea of combinatorial sequence space in a 150 amino-acid long residue (Beta-Lactamase).

What, then, can we conclude? Contrary to his claims, Hunt has failed to provide a detailed and rigorous account of the origin of T-urf13. Hunt also supplies no mathematical demonstration that the de novo origin of such genes is sufficiently probable that it might be justifiably attributed to an unguided or random process, nor does he provide a demonstration that a step-wise pathway exists where novel utility is conferred at every step (being separated by not more than one or two mutations) along the way prior to the emergence of the T-urf13 gene.

The Panda’s Thumb are really going to have to do better than this if they hope to refute Behe!

Comments
Surely the easiest thing to do would be for someone to exercise some charity, humor MathGrrl and provide the calculations for her examples. Refusing to do so makes ID look bad. I would have a go myself but I'm afraid my advanced math skills are rather too weak to do a good enough job.DrBot
March 9, 2011
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Upright BiPed, If you can't define your metric with mathematical rigor and can't demonstrate how to calculate it for a few simple scenarios, it is useless and any claims based on it are unfounded. I look forward to continuing the discussion with you when you have provided the necessary mathematical rigor and examples.MathGrrl
March 9, 2011
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vjtorley,
Which four scenarios are you talking about? You haven’t provided a reference to any post in this (already very long) thread.
The scenarios are described in post 177 which I referenced again in 232.
Your assertion that Abel’s functional sequence complexity is not equivalent to CSI is completely beside the point.
No, it is exactly the point. ID proponents in this thread and elsewhere make the claim that CSI is a reliable indicator of the involvement of intelligent agency. However, no ID proponent, to my knowledge, has provided a rigorous mathematical definition of CSI nor shown how to calculate it for any scenarios such as those I've described. Are you claiming that Abel's functional sequence complexity metric is a reliable indicator of the involvement of intelligent agency? Are you admitting that there is no rigorous mathematical definition of CSI?MathGrrl
March 9, 2011
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Mathgrrl, The "I" in CSI stands for information. If you want to understand CSI, then your personal dismissal of this fact is not a search for truth. It's a manuever.Upright BiPed
March 8, 2011
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MathGrrl (#243): (1) Which four scenarios are you talking about? You haven't provided a reference to any post in this (already very long) thread. If you think I'm going to read through it all to locate your needle in a haystack, think again. (2) Your assertion that Abel's functional sequence complexity is not equivalent to CSI is completely beside the point. I take it from your silence that Abel's definition is sufficiently rigorous to suit your requirements. Fine. If you don't like the term CSI, then let's dispense with it and simply talk about functional sequence complexity. This is a recurring feature of living organisms. Please provide an evolutionary mechanism that is able to account for the very high degree of functional sequence complexity we observe in even the simplest living thing. The ball's in your court. (3) In any case, functional sequence complexity is a subset of CSI. It is perfectly legitimate to use a general term whose definition is intuitively clear but not able to be captured in a single formula, if subsets of that term can be defined rigorously, and their over-arching similarity is obvious. I suggest that you engage the issues at hand.vjtorley
March 8, 2011
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vjtorley,
You keep using the term “FSCI” as if it has meaning, but you have yet to provide a mathematically rigorous definition for it
I have already directed you to a paper by David L. Abel, entitled The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity , which was on the ID page I recommended for your perusal.
I have read that paper and it does not discuss CSI. The explanation of "functional sequence complexity" is not equivalent to Dembski's CSI.
I am also unimpressed by Schneider’s attempted rebuttal to Professor Dembski’s “No Free Lunch”, which was written a decade ago. A lot has happened since then. Not once on his Web page does Schneider mention Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence by Professor Dembski, which is generally considered to be his finest paper on the subject.
I have also read that paper and it does not provide a rigorous mathematical definition of CSI. If you believe it does, please state that definition and apply it to the four scenarios I described above.MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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Upright BiPed,
So yet once again, you seemingly just refuse to acknowledge that the term you wished to have defined, is a subset of a larger phenomenon, and that it shares specific qualities with all other examples within that larger set.
Just start by rigorously defining CSI and we can progress from there. Claiming that an undefined term is "a subset of a larger phenomenon" is not particularly compelling. Show me how to compute CSI for the four scenarios I described and we can go from there.MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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MathGrrl You wrote (#231):
You keep using the term "FSCI" as if it has meaning, but you have yet to provide a mathematically rigorous definition for it...
I have already directed you to a paper by David L. Abel, entitled The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity , which was on the ID page I recommended for your perusal. In section 3, you will find a mathematically rigorous definition of Functional Sequence Complexity. And there's also this paper: "Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins" (at http://www.tbiomed.com/content/4/1/47 ) by Kirk K. Durston, David K.Y. Chiu, David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors. In Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling 2007, 4:47. doi:10.1186/1742-4682-4-47. I have to say that if these definitions are not rigorous enough for you, I don't know why you would swallow the hand-waving explanations provided by neo-Darwinists as to how functional information arose in living things. I am also unimpressed by Schneider's attempted rebuttal to Professor Dembski's "No Free Lunch", which was written a decade ago. A lot has happened since then. Not once on his Web page does Schneider mention Specification: The Pattern That Signifies Intelligence by Professor Dembski, which is generally considered to be his finest paper on the subject. The simple fact is that in the past few years, the ID movement has made a genuine and serious effort to provide a mathematically rigorous definition of CSI and FCSI. Sadly, you have failed to keep up with the current literature. Time to do some reading, I think.vjtorley
March 8, 2011
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So yet once again, you seemingly just refuse to acknowledge that the term you wished to have defined, is a subset of a larger phenomenon, and that it shares specific qualities with all other examples within that larger set. Unfortunately, I am left once again to forego your dismissal and repeat the question: Does CSI share certain qualities with all other examples of information, or not?Upright BiPed
March 8, 2011
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PaV said, "Go away little girl." I thought better of you.Pedant
March 8, 2011
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Upright BiPed, It's not a "desperate battle", it's just a bit frustrating. If I were talking to one of my colleagues and she said "I have an algorithm Foo that I can use to characterize my datasets as X and non-X." and I asked "Could you please define Foo in detail and show me how to calculate it for a few examples?", she'd be so eager to do so that I'd be lucky to get home before it was time to leave for work again. When I ask the same question here, I get non-responses like yours that ask questions using terms that I have already requested that you define. The difference is telling.MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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Mathgrrl, You claim to be in a desperate battle to understand what complex specified information is, yet by your non-response to my last post, I find that hard to believe. Are you indeed refusing to acknowledge that the term you want to understand is a subset of a larger phenomenon (information) and as such, it shares certain qualities with all other examples of information? Does CSI share certain qualities with all other examples of information, or not?Upright BiPed
March 8, 2011
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Haha! I actually read this entire thread...in one sitting. I'm convinced that this thread is now the best evidence we have of the lack of scientific merit of Intelligent Design. "That was designed". "How do you know". "Because it contains a lot of CSI" "What is CSI and how do you measure it" "Go away". Awesome. From now on, rather than linking to the Kitzmiller decision, I'm going to link straight here.lastyearon
March 8, 2011
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PaV,
First you answer my question about the Darwinian explanation for the Cambrian Explosion. Give me the when, where, what, and how.
I'm not going to play that game. I haven't made any claims about the Cambrian Explosion in this thread. In fact, aside from correcting some misconceptions about the ev GA, I have been very focused on trying to get an answer to what should be a very simple question for ID proponents: What is the mathematically rigorous definition of CSI? I've provided four very straightforward scenarios to allow an ID proponent to demonstrate how to calculate CSI so that I can understand it in sufficient detail to test the claim that CSI is a reliable indicator of intelligent agency. We're now over 200 posts into this thread and no one has provided this information about a core ID metric. What would be a reasonable conclusion to draw at this point?MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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MathGrrl: First you answer my question about the Darwinian explanation for the Cambrian Explosion. Give me the when, where, what, and how. When you do that, then I'll take you seriously. And, for the third time: read No Free Lunch. I've read it. I've digested it. I understand it. It is quite clear what CSI is. And Schneider and Shallit don't understand it. Neither do you, apparently. That's your problem. Not mine. So stop playing this little game of yours. For any onlookers, our wonderful "MathGrrl" is probably some graduate student for someone who thinks he knows something about CSI, NFL, and evolutionary algorithms, and he's sending his little protege off to the UD board to ask "discomfiting" questions. We try to be both accommodating and responsive. And this lets them play their little games, which is to point out what they consider to be a deficiency in the ID position, when all the while they're simply coming from, and commenting from, a place of ignorance. Go away little girl.PaV
March 8, 2011
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PaV,
I just can’t take your remarks seriously any longer. You might not realize it, but you’re far from being sincere in your effort at arriving at the truth.
I am absolutely sincere in my desire to understand CSI well enough to be able to test the claim that it is a reliable indicator of the involvement of an intelligent agent. However, I cannot get any ID proponent to provide a rigorous mathematical definition of the term nor to demonstrate how to calculate it for the four scenarios I provided. This is a major component of ID theory. Why won't you simply answer my questions about it?MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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Joseph,
CSI has more rigor behind it than anything your position has to offer.
In that case it should not be a problem for you to provide a mathematically rigorous definition of CSI and demonstrate how to calculate it for the four scenarios I describe in post 177 above.MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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Upright BiPed,
As I said earlier, FSCI is a subset of information, and all information requires symbols and rules in order to exist at all.
You keep using the term "FSCI" as if it has meaning, but you have yet to provide a mathematically rigorous definition for it and you have not shown how to calculate it for the four example scenarios I provided. Based on that, at the moment the term is literally meaningless. Could you please just provide a definition and examples of how to calculate it?MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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MathGrrl:
That completely ignores the known evolutionary mechanisms that lead to it.
The scream you hear is me pulling out my hair. What KNOWN evolutionary mechanisms?!!!!! Do you have any idea how incapable populations genetics is when it comes to explaining known changes in genomes? You simply presume that it explains everything, when, in fact, the only thing it can explain are found in Behe's Quarterly Review of Biology article and in his Edge of Evolution. Read Kimura's The Neutral Theory of Evolution and find out how little the neo-Darwinian "Synthesis" can explain. You've asked for what, when, where and how. I've asked you twice now to provide exactly that for Darwinian mechanisms; to which, you've twice demurred. You simply have religious belief in Darwinism. You haven't examined its claims; you've simply accepted them whole-hog. You simply accept that these putative evolutionary algorithms don't import information into them without first attempting to critique Dembski and Marks' work at all. (The information comes via the constraints that are applied to the program. It's as simple as that. And, just as inescapable. It's basically specifying a domain and a set of equations, and looking for some output.) I just can't take your remarks seriously any longer. You might not realize it, but you're far from being sincere in your effort at arriving at the truth.PaV
March 8, 2011
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MathGrrl:
If you refuse to even do a simple Pubmed search to investigate the claims you are making before you make them, there’s really no point in discussing the issue with you.
I have done the research. Your position doesn't have anything. If it did I would still be an evolutionist. If it did long-time atheist Anthony Flew would not have switched sides.
CSI as an indicator of intelligent agency is a significant claim by ID proponents.
Yup and to refute that claim just demonstrate that blind, undirected processes can account for what we claim to be CSI.
If you can’t define it, it can’t be tested and therefore ID proponents are not justified in using it to support their arguments.
CSI has more rigor behind it than anything your position has to offer. So according to you your position is not justified in anything it claims. As for errors- my bet is that computer people know more about computing than a biologist does.
I provided four scenarios for which I would like to measure CSI.
Must have missed them. But anyway I can provide plenty of examples your position can't explain. You want to go there?Joseph
March 8, 2011
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Mathgrrl at 216 I would hope to think you are not seriously questioning the importance of symbols to a system which requires symbols in order to function. As I said earlier, FSCI is a subset of information, and all information requires symbols and rules in order to exist at all. I would like to draw your attention to the wording “exist at all”. Take the symbol UCU. Within the conventions of the Genetic Code, UCU is the code for the amino acid Serine. We can make a single substitution and result in UAU, the symbol for Tyrosine. The information that exist here, only exist as a result of the mapping between the symbol (the triplets) and the object (the amino acid). You are concerned to say that the mechanism which flips the nucleotide from “C” to “A” has created information. This is a fundamental error. The mechanism did not create the mapping, and therefore cannot create the information. Until you can identify the source of the symbols and rules, you cannot make claims about mechanisms within the system in terms of being the originator of that information.Upright BiPed
March 8, 2011
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Joseph,
You link to information and binding sites? Are you serious? Do you think binding sites make an organism what it is?
I provided four scenarios for which I would like to measure CSI. Are you or are you not capable of demonstrating how to calculate CSI for those scenarios?MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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Joseph,
I’ll get to work on that just as soon as some ID proponent provides a mathematically rigorous definition of CSI so that I can objectively measure it.
You don’t need to know anything about CSI.
CSI as an indicator of intelligent agency is a significant claim by ID proponents. I am frankly astounded at how difficult it has been to get a rigorous mathematical definition of this essential metric. If you can't define it, it can't be tested and therefore ID proponents are not justified in using it to support their arguments. Can you or can you not provide a rigorous mathematical definition of CSI?MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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Joseph,
You are ignoring a vast amount of peer-reviewed research.
Nope.
If you refuse to even do a simple Pubmed search to investigate the claims you are making before you make them, there's really no point in discussing the issue with you. Whether you want to recognize it or not, observed evolutionary mechanisms are well enough understood to be modeled. CSI is not sufficiently well defined to do the same.
A Vivisection of the ev Computer Organism: Identifying Sources of Active Information
I do remember reading that paper. Within the first two pages I noted two significant problems (invalid claims about the applicability of the No Free Lunch theorems in the introduction and an incorrect statement about binding sites being fixed in the second section of the second page). To properly respond to you, I was going to do a full review of the paper, but a quick search turned up a response from Dr. Schneider himself, linked from the ev blog. He covers the two errors I noticed and found the far more fundamental problem that the authors fail to even mention one of the information measures that is essential to ev. It seems clear that the authors did not have a good understanding of what ev does or how it does it.MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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You link to information and binding sites? Are you serious? Do you think binding sites make an organism what it is? This is a joke- it has to be. Also it has yet to be demonstrated that all evolutionary mechanisms are blind watchmaker mechanisms. IOW MathGrrl it appears you don't understand the debate- so either you are a troll or yu are just here to flail about.Joseph
March 8, 2011
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MathGrrl:
You are ignoring a vast amount of peer-reviewed research.
Nope.
I just looked through this thread and didn’t see a reference. Could you please supply it again?
I provided it and so did bornagain 77. You ignored it- bad form on your part: A Vivisection of the ev Computer Organism: Identifying Sources of Active Information
ev is an evolutionary search algorithm proposed to simulate biological evolution. As such, researchers have claimed that it demonstrates that a blind, unguided search is able to generate new information. However, analysis shows that any non-trivial computer search needs to exploit one or more sources of knowledge to make the search successful. Search algorithms mine active information from these resources, with some search algorithms performing better than others. We illustrate these principles in the analysis of ev. The sources of knowledge in ev include a Hamming oracle and a perceptron structure that predisposes the search towards its target. The original ev uses these resources in an evolutionary algorithm. Although the evolutionary algorithm finds the target, we demonstrate a simple stochastic hill climbing algorithm uses the resources more efficiently.
Peer-review.
If it says that ev has an explicit target, it is wrong.
Doesn't need an explicit target.
I’ll get to work on that just as soon as some ID proponent provides a mathematically rigorous definition of CSI so that I can objectively measure it.
You don't need to know anything about CSI. Just start supporting teh claims of your position as oopsed to atacking ID. Attacking ID will not provide positive evidence for your position.
Joseph
March 8, 2011
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Joseph,
Evolutionary mechanisms are observed and documented. We understand them sufficiently to model them in simulations.
That is incorrect. Ya see we still don’t know what mutations cause what changes to body plans nor systems. Heck we don’t even know what makes an organism what it is.
You are ignoring a vast amount of peer-reviewed research. We don't know everything, obviously, but we do know enough to be able to model some known evolutionary mechanisms. Dr. Schneider's ev, for example, reflects his research on real world organisms.
I’m familiar with ev, to the extent that I’m working on a variant of it in my spare time. I assure you that there is no explicit target in the simulation. Where do you get the idea that there is?
I provided you a link to the peer-reviewed paper that says it is.
I just looked through this thread and didn't see a reference. Could you please supply it again? If it says that ev has an explicit target, it is wrong.
IOW to refute CSI just demonstrate that nature, operating freely can account for it.
I'll get to work on that just as soon as some ID proponent provides a mathematically rigorous definition of CSI so that I can objectively measure it.MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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MathGrrl:
Evolutionary mechanisms are observed and documented. We understand them sufficiently to model them in simulations.
That is incorrect. Ya see we still don't know what mutations cause what changes to body plans nor systems. Heck we don't even know what makes an organism what it is. So how can we simulte anything given that poor understanding?
I’m familiar with ev, to the extent that I’m working on a variant of it in my spare time. I assure you that there is no explicit target in the simulation. Where do you get the idea that there is?
I provided you a link to the peer-reviewed paper that says it is. Do you think that ignoring the paper makes it go away?
I would argue that the onus is on Dembski and other ID proponents to clearly articulate their arguments and provide detailed examples of how to calculate their metrics.
And yet all YOU have to do to refute ID is to actually step up and start producing positive evidence for your position. IOW it seems the onus is on you. And that is because according to the EF YOUR position gets the first cracks at solving the casal relationship(s) for the thing being investigated.
This ignores the provenance of the genome, essentially assuming that it came into existence de novo. That completely ignores the known evolutionary mechanisms that lead to it.
And that ignores the fact that there isn't any data to support DNA arising via blind, undirected chemical processes. IOW to refute CSI just demonstrate that nature, operating freely can account for it. Ya see even if ID didn't exist your position still wouldn't have anything.Joseph
March 8, 2011
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PaV,
You say you’re familiar with Dembski’s work, and, in particular, No Free Lunch. Yet anyone with a fleeting acquantince with Dembski’s work would know that, no matter how well something is ‘specified’, it does not constitute CSI unless its “complexity” is of the order 10^150. In terms of bits, that’s around 400. You say 22 bytes, and I’ll assume it’s 8 bits to the byte, or, 176 bits. This is well below the required 400 bits. You should just know this. Why don’t you?
This is the problem with the lack of rigor in the definition of CSI. You seem to be using a similar definition to that used by kairosfocus, namely the number of bits required to describe the genome under consideration. This ignores the provenance of the genome, essentially assuming that it came into existence de novo. That completely ignores the known evolutionary mechanisms that lead to it. If we ignore that issue and apply your definition to the other three scenarios I described, we find far more than 400 bits of CSI in each of those genomes. Do you therefore admit that known evolutionary mechanisms can generate CSI? If not, please clarify your definition so that I can understand your objection.MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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PaV,
The counter to Dr. Schneider’s assessment is twofold: (1) his understanding of what a pattern consists of is flawed; and (2) given his example, this flawed understanding is on display. How do I “prove” it is flawed? Well, I simply point to No Free Lunch and how Dembski defines and describes it there. The onus is for those scientists/mathematicians who want to disagree with Dembski to understand him correctly. Just read the book.
I would argue that the onus is on Dembski and other ID proponents to clearly articulate their arguments and provide detailed examples of how to calculate their metrics. In that vein, could you please explain, in your own words, exactly where in Schneider's CSI calculation he errs? It would also be very helpful if you could address the four scenarios I described above and show how to calculate CSI in each case. These kinds of worked examples are sorely lacking in the ID literature.MathGrrl
March 8, 2011
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