Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

On the non-evolution of Irreducible Complexity – How Arthur Hunt Fails To Refute Behe

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

I do enjoy reading ID’s most vehement critics, both in formal publications (such as books and papers) and on the, somewhat less formal, Internet blogosphere. Part of the reason for this is that it gives one something of a re-assurance to observe the vacuous nature of many of the critics’ attempted rebuttals to the challenge offered to neo-Darwinism by ID, and the attempted compensation of its sheer lack of explicative power by the religious ferocity of the associated rhetoric (to paraphrase Lynn Margulis). The prevalent pretense that the causal sufficiency of neo-Darwinism is an open-and-shut case (when no such open-and-shut case for the affirmative exists) never ceases to amuse me.

One such forum where esteemed critics lurk is the Panda’s Thumb blog. A website devoted to holding the Darwinian fort, and one endorsed by the National Center for Selling Evolution Science Education (NCSE). Since many of the Darwinian heavy guns blog for this website, we can conclude that, if consistently demonstrably faulty arguments are common play, the front-line Darwinism defense lobby is in deep water.

Recently, someone referred me to two articles (one, two) on the Panda’s Thumb website (from back in 2007), by Arthur Hunt (professor in Department of Plant and Soil Sciences at the University of Kentucky). The first is entitled “On the evolution of Irreducible Complexity”; the second, “Reality 1, Behe 0” (the latter posted shortly following the publication of Behe’s second book, The Edge of Evolution).

The articles purport to refute Michael Behe’s notion of irreducible complexity. But, as I intend to show here, they do nothing of the kind!

In his first article, Hunt begins,

There has been a spate of interest in the blogosphere recently in the matter of protein evolution, and in particular the proposition that new protein function can evolve. Nick Matzke summarized a review (reference 1) on the subject here. Briefly, the various mechanisms discussed in the review include exon shuffling, gene duplication, retroposition, recruitment of mobile element sequences, lateral gene transfer, gene fusion, and de novo origination. Of all of these, the mechanism that received the least attention was the last – the de novo appearance of new protein-coding genes basically “from scratch”. A few examples are mentioned (such as antifreeze proteins, or AFGPs), and long-time followers of ev/cre discussions will recognize the players. However, what I would argue is the most impressive of such examples is not mentioned by Long et al. (1).

There is no need to discuss the cited Long et al. (2003) paper in any great detail here, as this has already been done by Casey Luskin here (see also Luskin’s further discussion of Anti-Freeze evolution here), and I wish to concern myself with the central element of Hunt’s argument.

Hunt continues,

Below the fold, I will describe an example of de novo appearance of a new protein-coding gene that should open one’s eyes as to the reach of evolutionary processes. To get readers to actually read below the fold, I’ll summarize – what we will learn of is a protein that is not merely a “simple” binding protein, or one with some novel physicochemical properties (like the AFGPs), but rather a gated ion channel. Specifically, a multimeric complex that: 1. permits passage of ions through membranes; 2. and binds a “trigger” that causes the gate to open (from what is otherwise a “closed” state). Recalling that Behe, in Darwin’s Black Box, explicitly calls gated ion channels IC systems, what the following amounts to is an example of the de novo appearance of a multifunctional, IC system.

Hunt is making big promises. But does he deliver? Let me briefly summarise the jist of Hunt’s argument, and then briefly weigh in on it.

The cornerstone of Hunt’s argument is principally concerned with the gene, T-urf13, which, contra Behe’s delineated ‘edge’ of evolution, is supposedly a de novo mitochondrial gene that very quickly evolved from other genes which specified rRNA, in addition to some non-coding DNA elements. The gene specifies a transmembrane protein, which aids in facilitating the passage of hydrophilic molecules across the mitochondrial membrane in maize – opening only when bound on the exterior by particular molecules.

The protein is specific to the mitochondria of maize with Texas male-sterile cytoplasm, and has also been implicated in causing male sterility and sensitivity to T-cytoplasm-specific fungal diseases. Two parts of the T-urf13 gene are homologous to other parts in the maize genome, with a further component being of unknown origin. Hunt maintains that this proves that this gene evolved by Darwinian-like means.

Hunt further maintains that the T-urf13 consists of at least three “CCCs” (recall Behe’s argument advanced in The Edge of Evolution that a double “CCC” is unlikely to be feasible by a Darwinian pathway). Two of these “CCCs”, Hunt argues, come from the binding of each subunit to at minimum two other subunits in order to form the heteromeric complex in the membrane. This entails that each respective subunit have at minimum two protein-binding sites.

Hunt argues for the presence of yet another “CCC”:

[T]he ion channel is gated. It binds a polyketide toxin, and the consequence is an opening of the channel. This is a third binding site. This is not another protein binding site, and I rather suppose that Behe would argue that this isn’t relevant to the Edge of Evolution. But the notion of a “CCC” derives from consideration of changes in a transporter (PfCRT) that alter the interaction with chloroquine; toxin binding by T-urf13 is quite analogous to the interaction between PfCRT and chloroquine. Thus, this third function of T-urf13 is akin to yet another “CCC”.

He also notes that,

It turns out that T-urf13 is a membrane protein, and in membranes it forms oligomeric structures (I am not sure if the stoichiometries have been firmly established, but that it is oligomeric is not in question). This is the first biochemical trait I would ask readers to file away – this protein is capable of protein-protein interactions, between like subunits. This means that the T-urf13 polypeptide must possess interfaces that mediate protein-protein interactions. (Readers may recall Behe and Snokes, who argued that such interfaces are very unlikely to occur by chance.)

[Note: The Behe & Snoke (2004) paper is available here, and their response (2005) to Michael Lynch’s critique is available here.]

Hunt tells us that “the protein dubbed T-urf13 had evolved, in one fell swoop by random shuffling of the maize mitochondrial genome.” If three CCC’s really evolved in “one fell swoop” by specific but random mutations, then Behe’s argument is in trouble. But does any of the research described by Hunt make any progress with regards to demonstrating that this is even plausible? Short answer: no.

Hunt does have a go of guesstimating the probabilistic plausibility of such an event of neo-functionalisation taking place. He tells us, “The bottom line – T-urf13 consists of at least three ‘CCCs’. Running some numbers, we can guesstimate that T-urf13 would need about 10^60 events of some sort in order to occur.”

Look at what Hunt concludes:

Now, recall that we are talking about, not one, but a minimum of three CCC’s. Behe says 1 in 10^60, what actually happened occurred in a total event size of less that 10^30. Obviously, Behe has badly mis-estimated the “Edge of Evolution”. Briefly stated, his “Edge of Evolution” is wrong. [Emphasis in original]

Readers trained in basic logic will take quick note of the circularity involved in this argumentation. Does Hunt offer any evidence that T-urf13 could have plausibly evolved by a Darwinian-type mechanism? No, he doesn’t. In fact, he casually dismisses the mathematics which refutes his whole argument. Here we have a system with a minimum of three CCCs, and since he presupposes as an a priori principle that it must have a Darwinian explanation, this apparently refutes Behe’s argument! This is truly astonishing argumentation. Yes, certain parts of the gene have known homologous counterparts. But, at most, that demonstrates common descent (and even that conclusion is dubious). But a demonstration of homology, or common ancestral derivation, or a progression of forms is not, in and of itself, a causal explanation. Behe himself noted in Darwin’s Black Box, “Although useful for determining lines of descent … comparing sequences cannot show how a complex biochemical system achieved its function—the question that most concerns us in this book.” Since Behe already maintains that all life is derivative of a common ancestor, a demonstration of biochemical or molecular homology is not likely to impress him greatly.

How, then, might Hunt and others successfully show Behe to be wrong about evolution? It’s very simple: show that adequate probabilistic resources existed to facilitate the plausible origin of these types of multi-component-dependent systems. If, indeed, it is the case that each fitness peak lies separated by more than a few specific mutations, it remains difficult to envision how the Darwinian mechanism might adequately facilitate the transition from one peak to another within any reasonable time frame. Douglas Axe, of the biologic institute, showed in one recent paper in the journal Bio-complexity that the model of gene duplication and recruitment only works if very few changes are required to acquire novel selectable utility or neo-functionalisation. If a duplicated gene is neutral (in terms of its cost to the organism), then the  maximum number of mutations that a novel innovation in a bacterial population can require is up to six. If the duplicated gene has a slightly negative fitness cost, the maximum number drops to two or fewer (not inclusive of the duplication itself). One other study, published in Nature in 2001 by Keefe & Szostak, documented that more than a million million random sequences were required in order to stumble upon a functioning ATP-binding protein, a protein substantially smaller than the transmembrane protein specified by the gene, T-urf13. Douglas Axe has also documented (2004), in the Journal of Molecular Biology, the prohibitive rarity of functional enzymatic binding domains with respect to the vast sea of combinatorial sequence space in a 150 amino-acid long residue (Beta-Lactamase).

What, then, can we conclude? Contrary to his claims, Hunt has failed to provide a detailed and rigorous account of the origin of T-urf13. Hunt also supplies no mathematical demonstration that the de novo origin of such genes is sufficiently probable that it might be justifiably attributed to an unguided or random process, nor does he provide a demonstration that a step-wise pathway exists where novel utility is conferred at every step (being separated by not more than one or two mutations) along the way prior to the emergence of the T-urf13 gene.

The Panda’s Thumb are really going to have to do better than this if they hope to refute Behe!

Comments
MathGrrl you state; 'The shroud of Turin has been clearly and repeatedly demonstrated to be of 14th century, human origin.' Repeatedly??? Really MathGrrl?? The ONLY solid piece of evidence that ever suggested that the Shroud could have been of medieval origin was the Carbon dating!!! But the carbon dating has now been overturned, by Los Alamos National Laboratory no less!!! “Analytical Results on Thread Samples Taken from the Raes Sampling Area (Corner) of the Shroud Cloth” (Aug 2008) Excerpt: The age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case....... LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. Robert Villarreal http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193 further note; New Evidence Overturns Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating - Joseph G. Marino and M. Sue Benford - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4222339 The following is the main peer reviewed paper which has refuted the 1989 Carbon Dating: Why The Carbon 14 Samples Are Invalid, Raymond Rogers per: Thermochimica Acta (Volume 425 pages 189-194, Los Alamos National Laboratory, University of California) Excerpt: Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud. The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years. http://www.ntskeptics.org/issues/shroud/shroudold.htm Rogers passed away shortly after publishing this paper, but his work was ultimately verified by the Los Alamos National Laboratory: Carbon Dating Of The Turin Shroud Completely Overturned by Scientific Peer Review Rogers also asked John Brown, a materials forensic expert from Georgia Tech to confirm his finding using different methods. Brown did so. He also concluded that the shroud had been mended with newer material. Since then, a team of nine scientists at Los Alamos has also confirmed Rogers work, also with different methods and procedures. Much of this new information has been recently published in Chemistry Today. http://shroudofturin.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/the-custodians-of-time/ MathGrrl you state 'REPEATEDLY shown to be of medieval origin' and yet I can think of no solid evidence to support your position now that the carbon dating fiasco has been overturned, whereas I can provide several pieces of evidence for ancient origination in first century Jerusalem; THE SHROUD AS AN ANCIENT TEXTILE - Evidence of Authenticity http://www.newgeology.us/presentation24.html Shroud Of Turin - Sewn From Two Pieces - 2000 Years Old - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4109101 The Sudarium of Oviedo http://www.shroudstory.com/sudarium.htm ,, it should be noted that one of the primary reasons that Mathgrrl argues for a medieval origin in the first place is because of the inexplicable photographic negative/3-Dimensional properties of the image,, shroud skeptics think that perhaps a 'mad genius' could have forged the image :) ,,, The Turin Shroud - Comparing Image And Photographic Negative - interactive webpage (Of note: The finding of a photographic negative image on the Shroud is still as much a mystery today as when it was first discovered by Secondo Pia in 1898.) http://www.shroud.com/shrdface.htm Shroud Of Turin's Unique 3 Dimensionality - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041182 Shroud Of Turin - Photographic Negative - 3D Hologram - The Lamb - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5664213/ etc.. etc... How Did The Image Form On The Shroud? - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045581bornagain77
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
07:23 AM
7
07
23
AM
PDT
PS: MG, the questions that you have no direct answers to are the ones that you have selectively hypersksptically begged the question on. Do you accept that where we can do direct empirical testing, dFSCI in particular turns out to be a very reliable sign of design, as with say posts on this thread? Can you show one exception where through a truly chance and necessity only, unintelligently directed process -- ev etc do not count, as has been explained ad nauseum -- dFSCI of at least 1,000 bits has been credibly observed? 25 or so bytes [200 bits] of info HAS been observed through the infinite monkeys tests done -- spaces of 10^50 or so -- but a space of 10^300 or bigger is simply beyond the capacity of our observed cosmos. The uniformity principle, we must use to probe the remote unobservable past. That is, based on processes and causal factors and forces active in the present and their reliable signs, we may explain traces of the past and seek to reconstruct key aspects scientifically. But such knowledge is even more provisional and tentative in warrant than operations scientific work where we may make direct observations today. The common pretence and projection of utter confidence in results is completely without warrant. When we look at dFSCI in DNA, and when we see that DNA is in the heart of core life processes for the cell, we see that it was credibly present form the very beginnings of cell based life. DNA, of course, is chock full of dFSCI, a reliable sign of design. As to methods, we have pointed out -- you just willfully ignored it -- that anything from a sufficiently advanced version of Dr Craig Venter's lab on up could reasonably have been involved, as a candidate designing agent. But, on the sign of DNA as dFSCI, we do not have a basis for inferring to a specific designer on empirical data. When -- as was again pointed out earlier this morning -- we lift our eyes to the heavens and see the credible origin of a fine tuned cosmos that is set up at a knife's edge point that facilitates C-chemistry cell based life, we see a wider oicture,a nd one that points to a powerful intelligence beyond rthe cosmos. Given the number of things that had to be pretty exactly set to lead to such life, that in turn points to a purpose to create life, as we know from direct experience that intelligences often have purposes. Join such power, capacity and purpose together and you see that the candidate to beat is a necessary -- thus beyond matter-based -- being, with knowledge skill and capacity to found a cosmos friendly to life, who could then have proceeded to create life within that cosmos. Once life is formed, it will reproduce itself by its inbuilt mechanisms, and ultimately will probably colonise the cosmos. Other candidates as creators of life are of course possible, but this is the best explanation by far. Such an intelligence sounds rather familiar, but that is just how the scientific and common sense reasoning cookies crumble, when we reflect on evidence with an open mind. Do you have he courage to boldly face a Big truth, one that may be threatening because of what it may entail? If you don't then you should not ask questions that lead in such directions. And if you see such answers and have no cogent replies if you don't like their import, it seems then that you may need to ask yourself if you are being evasive on motives irrelevant to the weight of the evidence. Good day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
07:14 AM
7
07
14
AM
PDT
MG: You have been more than answered, more than I can repeat again. As tothe calculations on Ev and the like, it is plain that these "evolved" organisms are intelligently directed products of an intelligently designed process, so from the outset your attempt to estimate the scale of dFSCI involved is pointless. What is the file size of Ev or Avida? Is it beyond 125 bytes? If so, the programs are beyond the credible reach of chance and blind mechanical necessity, on the gamut of our observed cosmos. Thus the presence of dFSCI in the programs already warns us what we know by more direct means: they are intelligently designed. dFSCI, AGAIN, SHOWS ITS RELIABILITY AS AN INDEX OF DESIGN. As to the outputs that we are invited to pretend were not placed on a stage and put though their paces for us, for a purpose, by designers -- in a context where they have neatly set up "fitness landscapes" that are already in or on islands of function, when the real issue is to get to shores of such islands -- these outputs simply show that within an island of function, hill climbing is possible. Something that not even young earth creationists dispute. MG, please, wake up and face up to the big truths that are so overbearing in significance that you find them hard to accept. And, please eschew the big lies just exposed on the likes of ev that are so blatant that it is hard to think that they could be put forward if they were not true. You've been rooked . . . Please, think again. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
06:52 AM
6
06
52
AM
PDT
Upright BiPed,
Despite repeated requests by both myself and DrBot, there has still been no empirical evidence that addresses the who, what, when, where, and how questions that immediately arise from the claim that intelligent agency was involved in biological evolution.
You’ve been answered, you just refuse the answer. Refusing an answer is not the same as not getting one – it simply demonstrates gamesmanship.
That is simply not true. In fact, some respondents have explicitly said that such answers cannot be provided. To be fair, though, I may have missed the answers you claim have been provided. Please provide references to the empirical evidence for the existence of an intelligent agent that has intervened in biological evolution, the empirical evidence that shows exactly what this agent did, the empirical evidence that shows when this intervention took place, the empirical evidence that shows where this intervention happened, and the empirical evidence that shows how the intervention was accomplished.MathGrrl
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
06:46 AM
6
06
46
AM
PDT
Despite repeated requests by both myself and DrBot, there has still been no empirical evidence that addresses the who, what, when, where, and how questions that immediately arise from the claim that intelligent agency was involved in biological evolution.
You've been answered, you just refuse the answer. Refusing an answer is not the same as not getting one - it simply demonstrates gamesmanship.Upright BiPed
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
06:09 AM
6
06
09
AM
PDT
Despite repeated requests by both myself and DrBot, there has still been no empirical evidence that addresses the who, what, when, where, and how questions that immediately arise from the claim that intelligent agency was involved in biological evolution. A few commenters have claimed to have provided such evidence in the past, but no references have been forthcoming. The closest any ID proponent has come to providing empirical evidence, that I have seen, is gpuccio in the this series of threads hosted by Mark Frank. The pertinent parts of that discussion revolved around how to calculate CSI and its various derivatives. Since CSI has been raised in this thread as well, we might be able to make some more progress. I'm very interested in testing the claim that CSI can only be the result of intelligent agency. In order to do so, I need the help of ID proponents to rigorously define CSI and demonstrate how to objectively measure it. That will allow me, hopefully, to use an evolutionary simulation to determine whether or not known evolutionary mechanisms are capable of generating CSI. In Mark's threads we discussed both Tom Schneider's ev and Tom Ray's Tierra. Apropos of a recent thread here on UD, I'll also toss into the pot the various GA solutions to the Steiner problem. What I would like to understand from the ID proponents here is exactly how to calculate CSI, or one of its variants, for the digital organisms that evolve in these simulations. In the interests of time, it would help if anyone willing to respond would read the thread on Mark Frank's blog so that we can avoid going over issues that were already discussed. Thank you in advance for your assistance.MathGrrl
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
05:52 AM
5
05
52
AM
PDT
bornagain77, The shroud of Turin has been clearly and repeatedly demonstrated to be of 14th century, human origin. See here for an overview and links to additional research. I'm going to bow out of the religious artifacts sub-thread now, since it's a distraction from the core topic of positive evidence for ID. There are sufficient online resources for anyone interested in learning how these have been debunked.MathGrrl
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
05:42 AM
5
05
42
AM
PDT
DrBot, among the many things I take exception to in your post this particular one struck a more disharmonious cord than the rest; 'When it comes to the earth and ecology being tightly fitted for life, well we would expect evolution to produce the same,' No we would not,,, Because of this basic chemical requirement of complex photosynthetic bacterial life establishing and helping maintain the proper oxygen levels necessary for higher life forms on any earth-like planet (oxygen is essential for increased metabolism), this gives us further reason to strongly believe the earth is extremely unique in its ability to support intelligent life in this universe. What is more remarkable is that the balance for the atmosphere,,, Composition Of Atmosphere - Pie Chart and Percentages: http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/FIG01_010.JPG http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/TBL01_0T2.JPG which just so happens to be nearly optimal for humans to exist (Denton; Nature's Destiny), is maintained through complex symbiotic relationships with other bacteria, all of which are intertwined in very complex geochemical processes. All of the studies of early life, and processes, on early earth fall directly in line with the anthropic hypothesis and have no rational explanation, from any materialistic theory based on blind chance, as to why all the first types of bacterial life found in the fossil record would suddenly, from the very start of their appearance on earth, start working in precise harmony with each other, and with geology, to prepare the earth for future life to appear. Nor can materialism explain why, once these complex bacterial-geological processes had helped prepare the earth for higher life forms, they continue to work in precise harmony with each other to help maintain the proper balanced conditions that are of primary benefit for the complex life that is above them: Microbial life can easily live without us; we, however, cannot survive without the global catalysis and environmental transformations it provides. - Paul G. Falkowski - Professor Geological Sciences - Rutgers http://www.bioinf.uni-leipzig.de/~ilozada/SOMA_astrobiology/taller_astrobiologia/material_cds/pdfs_bibliografia/Biogeochemical_cycles_Delong_2008.pdf In fact even if evolution were able to generate any 'non-trivial' functional information whatsoever, which I firmly believe it can't, the world would 'naturally' be expected to be far less hospitable to higher life forms than the 'luxury' currently enjoyed,,, notes; Michael Behe defends the one 'overlooked' protein/protein binding site generated by the HIV virus, that Abbie Smith and Ian Musgrave had found, by pointing out it is well within the 2 binding site limit he set in "The Edge Of Evolution" on this following site: Response to Ian Musgrave's "Open Letter to Dr. Michael Behe," Part 4 "Yes, one overlooked protein-protein interaction developed, leading to a leaky cell membrane --- not something to crow about after 10^20 replications and a greatly enhanced mutation rate." http://behe.uncommondescent.com/page/4/ An information-gaining mutation in HIV? NO! http://creation.com/an-information-gaining-mutation-in-hiv In fact, I followed this debate very closely and it turns out the trivial gain of just one protein-protein binding site being generated for the non-living HIV virus, that the evolutionists were 'crowing' about, came at a staggering loss of complexity for the living host it invaded (People) with just that one trivial gain of a 'leaky cell membrane' in binding site complexity. Thus the 'evolution' of the virus clearly stayed within the principle of Genetic Entropy since far more functional complexity was lost by the living human cells it invaded than was ever gained by the non-living HIV virus. A non-living virus which depends on those human cells to replicate in the first place. Moreover, while learning HIV is a 'mutational powerhouse' which greatly outclasses the 'mutational firepower' of the entire spectrum of higher life-forms combined for millions of years, and about the devastating effect HIV has on humans with just that one trivial binding site being generated, I realized if evolution were actually the truth about how life came to be on Earth then the only 'life' that would be around would be extremely small organisms with the highest replication rate, and with the most mutational firepower, since only they would be the fittest to survive in the dog eat dog world where blind pitiless evolution rules and only the 'fittest' are allowed to survive. further notes; Engineering and Science Magazine - Caltech - March 2010 Excerpt: “Without these microbes, the planet would run out of biologically available nitrogen in less than a month,” Realizations like this are stimulating a flourishing field of “geobiology” – the study of relationships between life and the earth. One member of the Caltech team commented, “If all bacteria and archaea just stopped functioning, life on Earth would come to an abrupt halt.” Microbes are key players in earth’s nutrient cycles. Dr. Orphan added, “...every fifth breath you take, thank a microbe.” http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201003.htm#20100316a Planet's Nitrogen Cycle Overturned - Oct. 2009 Excerpt: "Ammonia is a waste product that can be toxic to animals.,,, archaea can scavenge nitrogen-containing ammonia in the most barren environments of the deep sea, solving a long-running mystery of how the microorganisms can survive in that environment. Archaea therefore not only play a role, but are central to the planetary nitrogen cycles on which all life depends.,,,the organism can survive on a mere whiff of ammonia – 10 nanomolar concentration, equivalent to a teaspoon of ammonia salt in 10 million gallons of water." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090930132656.htm The Paradox of the "Ancient" Bacterium Which Contains "Modern" Protein-Coding Genes: “Almost without exception, bacteria isolated from ancient material have proven to closely resemble modern bacteria at both morphological and molecular levels.” Heather Maughan*, C. William Birky Jr., Wayne L. Nicholson, William D. Rosenzweig§ and Russell H. Vreeland ; http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/9/1637 etc.. etc..bornagain77
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
04:58 AM
4
04
58
AM
PDT
Pedant:
So, it seems that the ID squad here is promoting the proposition that miracles (events that run counter to the usual course of observation) occur.
Your whole position is based on "events that run counter to the usual course of observation". So what is your point?Joseph
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
04:55 AM
4
04
55
AM
PDT
F/n 2: Dr Bot, if this time around, you will look here, you will see that the fine tuning implied by the well-known, deeply studied, life enabling properties of water and the circumstances that make H, He, O and C the most abundant elements, are not based on what we do not know, but what we know very well. The "we don't know enough to know the cosmos is fine tuned enough to be improbable on chance" dodge is not good enough.kairosfocus
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
02:51 AM
2
02
51
AM
PDT
F/N: In fact it was commonly held by leading darwinist advocates for decades, that the vast majority of the gene complement of the cells in our and other bodies was "junk" as an expectation of the chance plus fit a niche or perish view of a cobbled together plan for living organisms. It was design thinkers who said otherwise, and it is they who are being vindicated.kairosfocus
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
02:42 AM
2
02
42
AM
PDT
Dr Bot: The key facets of the big bang are that it points tot he radical contingency of our observed cosmos, and its circumstances point to the multiple ways in which the physics, parameters and boundary conditions more broadly of our cosmos are fine tuned in ways that make C-chemistry, cell based intelligent life possible. The first -- even through multiverse speculations -- points to a necessary and powerful being as the underlying cause of such a contingent cosmos. Such a being has no external necessary [switch on to enable] causal factors, and as such is eternal, and necessarily non-material; as matter is contingent cf. E = m*c^2 for one way that is so. In the old days, it had been often held that the necessary being was the cosmos as a whole, but the discovery of the Hubble Red shift and its implications on General Relativity, put reluctant cosmologists into the corner of acknowledging a beginning to our cosmos. The second defines that necessary being in interesting ways: capability to configure and initiate the existence of a cosmos with physics fine-tuned like we observe. Even on a multiverse, that requires a cosmos bakery that is as much fine tuned as our cosmos, i.e. we need to scan the local point in the phase space of possible cosmi, very closely indeed. Ability to set up such a cosmos implies not only power, but intelligence, knowledge and skill, as well as strongly pointing to intent. We are looking at a necessary, eternal, awesomely powerful, mon-material, self-sustaining, intelligent, knowledgeable, skilled, credibly purposeful creator. That, on evidence from physics and in light of basic principles of being and cause: contingency vs necessity. In short, we have here a serious candidate for a cause beyond the physical cosmos. One who sounds fairly familiar: "Fiat lux!" When we turn to our own minds, and look seriously at the properties of mindedness, we see again that we need a cause that transcends the physical cause-effect chain that our bodies and brains are locked into, something that can move beyond mere negative feedback to governing, by providing a steering path input. Something self-moved, that serves as higher order supervisory controller in the loop. Something, that sounds a lot like well, err, mind, or even soul; in -- err, ahh, ehm -- the image of the greater Mind that created the cosmos. Otherwise, our experienced reality of ourselves as reasonable, responsible conscious, deciding creatures, collapses. Especially, we see that evolutionary materialist accounts of mind end in self-referentially incoherent absurdity. So, from the beginnings of the cosmos to the beginnings of our own conscious mindedness, there are signs everywhere that point strongly beyond the mechanical and/or chaotic world of chance and necessity. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
02:37 AM
2
02
37
AM
PDT
Collin I'm not a physicist but from my understanding the Big bang theory was developed from redshift observations that suggested galaxies were all travelling away from a point of origin. When you trace matter back to a point like this you can study, based on what we know about matter, what early conditions in the universe might be like, and then from this predict phenomena that we should be able to observe today - for example the cosmic microwave background - The origional conjuecture leads to a theoretical analysis which then allows experiments to be designed, and observations made, which in turn can either confirm, refine or destroy the theory. Big bang theory survives because many experiments and observations derived from the theory have either confirmed an aspect of the theory, or provided new information which allows the theory to be refined (and new experiments to be derived) - although the picture is still incomplete. One of the reasons for experiments with particle accelerators is to understand these hypothesised early conditions better, so that this and other theories can be better tested. The problem with the ID prediction that junk DNA should have function is that it assumes a particular design methodology - that the designer wouldn't include junk - and this goes against observations of design by humans. For example many consumer products that use embedded computers contain junk code that fills up spare memory - this is done to make attempts at back engineering by competitors harder. Human designers also copy from earlier designs and sometimes copy features because they are there, not always because they are still of value, or because they ever served a function. Sometimes they are copied because the designer just assumes they are functional. The observation from what we know about observed designers is that they can and do include junk, but not always, so we can't predict what a non human designer would do without having to say something about the methods or motivations of this designer. When it comes to the earth and ecology being tightly fitted for life, well we would expect evolution to produce the same, as far as life and ecologies go, and we wouldn't expect to see life arise and evolve in an environment unsuitable for life. When it comes to predictions about design, if we don't know the constraints or motivations of a designer (who could have unlimited power) then how can we determine that they would have designed life and our planet this way - they don't have to tightly fit earth and its ecology if they have enough power. There is always the argument from improbability - that it is improbable that a world suitable for life could exist - I would say we don't know nearly enough about the universe or complex chemistry, e.g. how common are planets that could support life? As a theist though I beleve in God, I'm just not committed to any ideology that suggests God couldn't have designed a universe which generated life, and which could then evolve.DrBot
March 1, 2011
March
03
Mar
1
01
2011
01:56 AM
1
01
56
AM
PDT
DrBot, I would like to clarify. I don't think you can test the Big Bang but you can make predictions and find confirming (or disconfirming) evidence. I think we can do that for ID and for Big Bang. For example, a prediction of ID might be that more and more of junk DNA will be found to have function. We might also predict that earth and its ecology is tightly fitted for life. I think that bornagain can expound on that.Collin
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
08:05 PM
8
08
05
PM
PDT
DrBot, I do not know how one would test ID. But I also don't know how astronomers test the Big Bang. Could you explain?Collin
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
08:00 PM
8
08
00
PM
PDT
Pendant as to; 'So, it seems that the ID squad here is promoting the proposition that miracles (events that run counter to the usual course of observation) occur.' Though it could be forcefully argued that the quantum events which form the foundation of our reality are 'miraculous' in nature, since they blatantly defy our concepts of time and space in the first place, to back up the claim that 'extraordinary/miraculous' events extend into our 'macroscopic' world (ignoring quantum wave collapse to each unique point of observation in the universe), I found this article yesterday; Medical Miracles Really Do Happen Excerpt: No one knows exactly how often such cases occur. Approximately 3,500 medically documented cases of seeming miracles -- based on reports from doctors in America and around the world dating to 1967 -- have appeared in 800 peer-reviewed medical journals and cover all major illnesses, including cancer, heart disease, diabetes and arthritis.*,,, Have any of your patients ever experienced this type of healing? Early in my career, I had an elderly patient with cancer in both lungs that had spread throughout his body. We had no medical therapies for this type of cancer, but during visiting hours, people from his church stood near his bed, praying and singing gospel music. I expected him to die within days, and when he asked to go home, I respected his wishes and discharged him. About a year later, this patient was back in the hospital -- this time with a bad case of the flu. I went to the radiology department to look at his current chest X-ray, and it was completely normal. I thought that in the past year he must have had a dramatic response to additional therapy of some kind, but he hadn’t undergone any therapy. To me, this was a true miracle cure. http://www.bottomlinesecrets.com/article.html?article_id=42254bornagain77
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
07:10 PM
7
07
10
PM
PDT
Pedant,
So, it seems that the ID squad here is promoting the proposition that miracles (events that run counter to the usual course of observation) occur. Do all (of the ID persons) agree with that proposition?
I can't speak for all, but I certainly do.Clive Hayden
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
06:08 PM
6
06
08
PM
PDT
Mathgrrl, Do you think something existed before the beginning of the universe? If you do, then on what grounds do you think so?Upright BiPed
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
05:03 PM
5
05
03
PM
PDT
So, it seems that the ID squad here is promoting the proposition that miracles (events that run counter to the usual course of observation) occur. Do all (of the ID persons) agree with that proposition?Pedant
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
02:12 PM
2
02
12
PM
PDT
PaV: That said, I think the Shroud of Turin, because it has been more thoroughly studied, makes the same point, and in a stronger, less ambiguous way. Same argument. Different miracle. Argument it is. Convincing case it is not.Pedant
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
02:07 PM
2
02
07
PM
PDT
MathGrrl: Rosales used a "stereo microscope". Here's what Wikipedia has to say: The stereo or dissecting microscope is an optical microscope variant designed for low magnification observation or a sample using incident light illumination rather than transillumination. It uses two separate optical paths with two objectives and two eyepieces to provide slightly different viewing angles to the left and right eyes. In this way it produces a three-dimensional visualization of the sample being examined. This instrument can only tell us about surface phenomena. Callahan, OTOH, used infrared photograpy, which can penetrate the layering. Here's what he found:
In 1979, Dr. Philip Serna Callahan, a biophysicist affiliated with the University of Florida, conducted an infrared photographic investigation into the composition of the image in the Basilica. His preliminary findings have interesting implications for t h e indigenista exegeses. Callahan (1981) has described numerous overlays of pigments upon a primitive (original) image, without an underdrawing, and has suggested the composition of the colorants. Among the "retouches" he finds are the moon, sun rays, sash, all gold ornamentation (including the stars and the Nahui Ollin figure), to mention a few. Dr. Callahan's research has already been translated into Spanish in Mexico and published with the support of the Archdiocese of Mexico (Callahan and Smith 1981). Callahan contends, like art critics before him, that the additions he identifies are simply (and rather obviously, to him) International Gothic ornaments typical of fifteenth- and sixteenth-century Spanish paintings of the Virgin Mary (Callahan 1981:8).
Did I mention that a bomb was placed upon the altar in front of the image in the early 1900's. When the bomb went off, the thick brass crucifix on top of the altar was bent over with the top of the crucifix pointing straight down; yet the image was unscathed. That said, I think the Shroud of Turin, because it has been more thoroughly studied, makes the same point, and in a stronger, less ambiguous way. Same argument. Different miracle.PaV
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
further note: All attempts to reproduce the Shroud fail: Experts Question Scientist’s Claim of Reproducing Shroud of Turin - Oct 6, 2009 http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=98037# The Shroud of Turin has NOT been reproduced ! - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjxZFfHVtsE PROOF SHROUD OF TURIN CANNOT BE A FAKE - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfDdbxMKZRw ,,,,,,,,,,, Even with the advantage of all our advanced space-age technology at their fingertips, all scientists can guess is that it was some type of electro-magnetic radiation (light) which is not natural to this world. Kevin Moran, a scientist working on the mysterious '3D' nature of the Shroud image, states the 'supernatural' explanation this way: "It is not a continuum or spherical-front radiation that made the image, as visible or UV light. It is not the X-ray radiation that obeys the one over R squared law that we are so accustomed to in medicine. It is more unique. It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discontinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed. The fact that the pixels don’t fluoresce suggests that the conversion to their now brittle dehydrated state occurred instantly and completely so no partial products remain to be activated by the ultraviolet light. This suggests a quantum event where a finite amount of energy transferred abruptly. The fact that there are images front and back suggests the radiating particles were released along the gravity vector. The radiation pressure may also help explain why the blood was "lifted cleanly" from the body as it transformed to a resurrected state." http://www.shroudstory.com/natural.htm If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light' while having a deep NDE have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth. In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560bornagain77
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
12:43 PM
12
12
43
PM
PDT
MathGrrl, I do not know anything of that image, and have never even heard of it, but perhaps you would like to explain how this image formed; Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg Turin Shroud 3-D Hologram - Face And Body - Dr. Petrus Soons - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5889891/ Shroud Of Turin Carbon Dating Overturned By Scientific Peer Review - Robert Villarreal - Press Release video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041193 Now that the flawed carbon dating is finally brought into line, all major lines of evidence now converge and establish the Shroud as authentic. This rigidly tested, and scrutinized, artifact establishes the uniqueness of the Shroud among all ancient artifacts of man found on earth. I know of no other ancient artifact, from any other culture, which has withstood such intense scrutiny and still remained standing in its claim of divine origin. It is apparent God thought this event so important for us to remember that He took a “photograph” of the resurrection of Jesus Christ using the Shroud itself as a medium. After years of painstaking research, searching through every materialistic possibility, scientists still cannot tell us exactly how the image of the man on the Shroud was imprinted. How Did The Image Form On The Shroud? - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045581 "The shroud image is made from tiny fibres that are (each) 1/10th of a human hair. The picture elements are actually randomly distributed like the dots in your newspaper, photograph or magazine photograph. To do this you would need an incredibly accurate atomic laser. This technology does NOT exist (even to this day)." Kevin Moran - Optical Engineer "the closest science can come to explaining how the image of the Man in the Shroud got there is by comparing the situation to a controlled burst of high-intensity radiation similar to the Hiroshima bomb explosion which "printed" images of incinerated people on building walls." Frank Tribbe - Leading Scholar And Author On Shroud Research ,,, Actually there is a 'theory' for how the image formed; I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. The expansion of every 3D point in the universe, and the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe to each point of conscious observation in the universe, is obviously a very interesting congruence in science between the very large (relativity) and the very small (quantum mechanics). A congruence that Physicists, and Mathematicians, seem to be having a extremely difficult time 'unifying' into a 'theory of everything'.(Einstein, Penrose). Quantum Mechanics Not In Jeopardy: Physicists Confirm Decades-Old Key Principle Experimentally - July 2010 Excerpt: the research group led by Prof. Gregor Weihs from the University of Innsbruck and the University of Waterloo has confirmed the accuracy of Born’s law in a triple-slit experiment (as opposed to the double slit experiment). "The existence of third-order interference terms would have tremendous theoretical repercussions - it would shake quantum mechanics to the core," says Weihs. The impetus for this experiment was the suggestion made by physicists to generalize either quantum mechanics or gravitation - the two pillars of modern physics - to achieve unification, thereby arriving at a one all-encompassing theory. "Our experiment thwarts these efforts once again," explains Gregor Weihs. (of note: Born's Law is an axiom that dictates that quantum interference can only occur between pairs of probabilities, not triplet or higher order probabilities. If they would have detected higher order interference patterns this would have potentially allowed a reformulation of quantum mechanics that is compatible with, or even incorporates, gravitation.) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100722142640.htm The conflict of reconciling General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics appears to arise from the inability of either theory to successfully deal with the Zero/Infinity problem that crops up in different places of each theory: THE MYSTERIOUS ZERO/INFINITY Excerpt: The biggest challenge to todays physicists is how to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics.,,, What the two theories have in common -- and what they clash over -- is zero. http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/edit01_02/edit6_mar02.htm The following Physicist offers a very interesting insight into this issue of 'reconciling' the mental universe of Quantum Mechanics with the space-time of General Relativity: How the Power of Intention Alters Matter - Dr. William A. Tiller Excerpt: Quantum mechanics and relativity theory are the two prime theoretical constructs of modern physics, and for quantum mechanics and relativity theory to be internally self-consistent, their calculations require that the vacuum must contain an energy density 10^94 grams per cubic centimeter. How much energy is that? To find out you simply use Einstein's equation: E=MC2. Here's how this comes out in practical terms. You could take the volume of, say, a single hydrogen atom (which is incredibly small, an infinitesimally small fraction of a cubic centimeter), and multiply that by the average mass density of the cosmos, a number which is known to astronomers. And what you find out is that within the amount of vacuum contained in this hydrogen atom there is, according to this calculation, "almost a trillion times as much energy as in all of the stars and all of the planets out to a radius of 20 billion light years!" If human consciousness can interact with that even a little bit, it can change things in matter. Because the ground state energies of all particles have that energy level due to their interaction with this stuff of the vacuum. So if you can shift that stuff of the vacuum, change its degree of order or coherence even a little bit, you can change the ground state energies of particles, atoms, molecules, and chemical equations.,,,, In conclusion Tiller states, "despite our attachment to it and our feeling of its solidity and persistence, what we think of as the physical universe is an almost incomprehensibly minuscule part of the immensity of All That Is." "Matter as we know it," Tiller concludes poetically, "is hardly a fragrance of a whisper." http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/mar2/tiller.htm Yet, the unification, into a 'theory of everything', between what is in essence the 'infinite world of Quantum Mechanics' and the 'finite world of the space-time of General Relativity' seems to be directly related to what Jesus apparently joined together with His resurrection, i.e. related to the unification of infinite God with finite man. Dr. William Dembski in this following comment, though not directly addressing the Zero/Infinity conflict in General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, offers insight into this 'unification' of the infinite and the finite: The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - Pg.31 William Dembski PhD. Mathematics Excerpt: "In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity." http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf Moreover there actually is physical evidence that lends strong support to the position that the 'Zero/Infinity conflict', we find between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, was successfully dealt with by Christ: The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355bornagain77
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
12:13 PM
12
12
13
PM
PDT
PaV, You are ignoring the rest of the assessment:
Rosales examined the cloth with a stereomicroscope and observed that the canvas appeared to be a mixture of linen and hemp or cactus fiber. It had been prepared with a brush coat of white primer (calcium sulfate), and the image was then rendered in distemper (i.e., paint consisting of pigment, water, and a binding medium). The artist used a “very limited palette,” the expert stated, consisting of black (from pine soot), white, blue, green, various earth colors ("tierras”), reds (including carmine), and gold. Rosales concluded that the image did not originate supernaturally but was instead the work of an artist who used the materials and methods of the sixteenth century (El Vaticano 2002).
It's just a painting.MathGrrl
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
11:57 AM
11
11
57
AM
PDT
MathGrrl: As to your citation, here's a portion:
Actually, infrared photographs show that the hands have been modified, and close-up photography shows that pigment has been applied to the highlight areas of the face sufficiently heavily so as to obscure the texture of the cloth.
What does a close reading of this indicate? If the author writes: "close-up photography shows that pigment has been applied to the highlight areas of the face sufficiently heavily so as to obscure the texture of the cloth. . . .", then, obviously, there are large portions of the image where the "texture of the cloth" can be seen---and, yet, the image is there, but there is NO paint! It is preposterous to assume that because an Indian added flourishes to the original image to make it correspond with a more "Spanish" type art, that this therefore establishes the agency for the original image as human. It does not. Indeed, it clearly shows just the opposite. IOW, there are parts of the image that clearly can be shown to have human agency as their cause (as has been documented historically), which only goes to show that the other parts of the image DON'T have human agency as their cause. I It is easy to delude ourselves. But facts are facts. And you have to deal with them. And if you can't deal with them, then maybe you should question what is really underlying your opposition to outside agency.PaV
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
11:47 AM
11
11
47
AM
PDT
Dr Bot:
So when we don’t know if something is possible we should conclude that some unobserved entity did it – a priori theism perhaps?
No theism required, just knowledge of cause andeffect relationships.
– does this mean we should stop investigating?
Do archaeologists sop investigating once they determine they are holding an artifact? Do police stop investigating once forensics say a homicide took place?
Not me, I prefer “We don’t know” when I’m doing science.
Except people like you really sa "We don't know but we know it wasn't design", then you hand out promissory notes.
Mathgrrl is asking for evidence in support of the hypothesis that an intelligent entity intervened to create life, or to alter life.
And it has been provided and ignored, time and again. So here's the deal- you guys present a tstable hypothesis along with positive (supporting) evidence for your position- that way we can compare and you can't keep running round with the goalposts. Are you up to the task? Or are you just another evo propaganda mouth-piece?Joseph
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
11:45 AM
11
11
45
AM
PDT
I believe one of the objections of MathGrrl was that there is no evidence for an intelligent agent existing before humans,, yet as Dr. Craig illustrates here,, The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914 ,, the origin of the universe itself requires an Intelligent agent acting according to His own free will. Moreover, far from being a Deistic Entity which created this universe and then did nothing else, This Transcendent Entity is shown to be fully Theistic in Its characteristics in that the universe is shown not to be self sustaining, but requires a 'first mover' to account for each moment of the universe,,, ,,,In conjunction with the mathematical, and logical, necessity of an 'Uncaused Cause' to explain the beginning of the universe, in philosophy it has been shown that,,, "The 'First Mover' is necessary for change occurring at each moment." Michael Egnor - Aquinas’ First Way http://www.evolutionnews.org/2009/09/jerry_coyne_and_aquinas_first.html I find this centuries old philosophical argument, for the necessity of a 'First Mover' accounting for change occurring at each moment, to be validated by quantum mechanics. This is since the possibility for the universe to be considered a self-sustaining 'closed loop' of cause and effect is removed with the refutation of the 'hidden variable' argument, as first postulated by Einstein, in entanglement experiments. As well, there also must be a sufficient transcendent cause (God/First Mover) to explain quantum wave collapse for 'each moment' of the universe. Dr. Quantum - Double Slit Experiment & Entanglement - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4096579 BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ notes,, It is interesting to note that some materialists seem to have a very hard time grasping the simple point of the double slit experiments, but to try to put it more clearly; To explain an event which defies time and space, as the quantum erasure experiment clearly does, you cannot appeal to any material entity in the experiment like the detector, or any other 3D physical part of the experiment, which is itself constrained by the limits of time and space. To give an adequate explanation for defying time and space one is forced to appeal to a transcendent entity which is itself not confined by time or space. But then again I guess I can see why forcing someone who claims to be a atheistic materialist to appeal to a non-material transcendent entity, to give an adequate explanation, would invoke such utter confusion on their part. Yet to try to put it in even more 'shocking' terms, the 'shocking' conclusion of the experiment is that a transcendent Mind, with a capital M, must precede the collapse of quantum waves to 3-Dimensional particles. Moreover, it is impossible for a human mind to ever 'emerge' from any 3-D material particle which is itself semi-dependent on our 'observation' for its own collapse to a 3D reality in the first place. This is more than a slight problem for the atheistic-evolutionary materialist who insists that our minds 'emerged', or evolved, from 3D matter. In the following article Professor Henry puts it more clearly than I can: The Mental Universe - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke "decoherence" - the notion that "the physical environment" is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in "Renninger-type" experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf Astrophysicist John Gribbin comments on the Renninger experiment here: Solving the quantum mysteries - John Gribbin Excerpt: From a 50:50 probability of the flash occurring either on the hemisphere or on the outer sphere, the quantum wave function has collapsed into a 100 per cent certainty that the flash will occur on the outer sphere. But this has happened without the observer actually "observing" anything at all! It is purely a result of a change in the observer's knowledge about what is going on in the experiment. http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/quantum.htm#Solving i.e. The detector is completely removed as to being the primary cause of quantum wave collapse in the experiment. As Richard Conn Henry clearly implied previously, in the experiment it is found that 'The physical environment' IS NOT sufficient within itself to 'create reality', i.e. 'The physical environment' IS NOT sufficient to explain quantum wave collapse to a 'uncertain' 3D particle. Why, who makes much of a miracle? As to me, I know of nothing else but miracles, Whether I walk the streets of Manhattan, Or dart my sight over the roofs of houses toward the sky,,, Walt Whitman - Miracles That the mind of a individual observer would play such an integral, yet not complete 'closed loop' role, in instantaneous quantum wave collapse to uncertain 3-D particles, gives us clear evidence that our mind is a unique entity. A unique entity with a superior quality of existence when compared to the uncertain 3D particles of the material universe. This is clear evidence for the existence of the 'higher dimensional soul' of man that supersedes any material basis that the soul/mind has been purported to emerge from by materialists. I would also like to point out that the 'effect', of universal quantum wave collapse to each 'central 3D observer', gives us clear evidence of the extremely special importance that the 'cause' of the 'Infinite Mind of God' places on each of our own individual souls/minds. Psalm 139:17-18 How precious concerning me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you.bornagain77
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
11:44 AM
11
11
44
AM
PDT
About a year ago, I discussed T-urf 13 on Arthur Hunt's blog. You can find it there. I spent more time than I cared to, then, and I have avoided any discussion now. That said, I have re-visited the issue, nevertheless. I will point these things out: (1) The method of inheritance of mitochondria is not the same as that of nuclear DNA---the benchmark of neo-Darwinism. (2) The idea of three CCC's is hypothetical, and not more. The "third" CCC that Hunt proposes---a binding site between a toxin and the gated ion-channel---can just as easily, and more plausibly, be explained by the toxin 'evolving' a binding site for the ion-channel. (3) The kind of "recombination" that takes place in (plant) mitochondria is not your normal Mendelian recombination. Hunt eludes to this when he says at [40]: "Jonathan, are you suggesting that the mechanisms known to be involved in homologous and/or non-homologous recombination (the processes that pretty clearly gave rise to the T-urf13 gene) do not obey the rules of chemistry?" Notice his use of "rules of chemistry" and not, e.g., the "rules of biology". This is because in plant mitochondria, 'sub-circles' of mitochondrial DNA can accumulate through 'intra-molecular' recombination. There apparently is some kind of machinery that allows portions of the original 'circular' genome of the mitochondria to take parts of the original mitochondrial genome and fashion other circles. This machinery (notice that this terms presupposes some kind of inter-purposiveness) obeys not genetic, but chemical rules, with the result that a huge diversity of "recombinations" can be cobbled together. As someone pointed out in Hunt's blog back when T-urf 13 was being discussed, there are great similarities between the diversity bought about in anti-body production and that of plant mitochondrial recombination. This, quite obviously, falls outside of normal "Darwinian" mechanisms. It seems a little bit disingenious that Art is now correctly referring to this quite different type of recombination as following chemical rules, yet insist that the CCC's he finds here dispute Behe's claims that "Darwinian" mechanisms can't produce much more than 2 CCC's of complexity. (4) Let's just be aware that Behe uses White's number of 1 in 10^20 in EoE, a number that represents not theoretical figures of probability, but actual in vivo probabilites; i.e., this is what is found in the lab. As to 'theoretical figures', the number should be 1 in 10^16, and, hence, 3 CCC's would represent, theoretically, 1 in 10^48 improbability, under the UPB used by most scientists. I add this simply for the sake of clarity. (5) In a recent paper, a "de novo" gene was being touted. Guess what? It turns out that a portion of a "non-coding" gene and its flanking element was involved in the manufacturing of this "de novo" gene. This is exactly what we find in T-urf 13. Hence, when I used the term "machinery" in (3) above, indeed, this seems to be a maneuver that living cells have at their disposal, thus warranting a search for this new mechanism and not the false claim of truly "de novo" genes. As in the case with T-urf-13, the "new" gene is nothing more than the demolishing of another gene: i.e., the critical portion of the "de novo" gene represented no more than a portion of another gene. (The transcribed portion of T-urf 13 that provides this 'amazing' gated ion-channel, is only a very small part of the "de novo" gene.) Again, this is consistent with Behe's latest article. (6) There are two "nuclear restorers" that can restore the plant to 'male fertility' from the sterile condition found in the Texas maize from which T-urf 13 is derived. Interestingly, and provocatively, when the "nuclear restorers" work their magic, guess what? T-urf 13 is no longer found: evidence, again, that a "mechanism", and "machinery" is at play. Getting back to the original post here, Jonathan quite correctly demonstrates that Darwinian mechanisms are being assumed to be at work with the manufacture of URF-13 protein, and, yet, from all indications, whatever is happening to the maize, has very little to do with true Darwinian mechanisms. I would hope Arthur Hunt might acknowledge this. Let's just finish here by pointing out again that T-urf 13 involves a kind of degradation of maize. In the case of the Texas maize--hence the T---the T-urf 13 was located by researchers because it was there that the toxin that decimated the corn grown in Texas in the late 60's attached itself. So the "manufacturing" of this "de novo" gene proved to make the maize less fit. This is in keeping with Behe's latest findings.PaV
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
11:35 AM
11
11
35
AM
PDT
PaV,
The image of the Virgin cannot be explained by scientists.
There are scientists who disagree with your statement. There are also many historians who make a good case that Juan Diego never existed.MathGrrl
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
11:25 AM
11
11
25
AM
PDT
F/N 2: in light of the above, actually, Dr Bot: Mathgrrl is asking for [sadly, evading] evidence in support of the ID hypothesis. I repeat: we know that intelligence is causally sufficient for dFSCI; indeed we ourselves routinely show that by posting in this blog. The ONLY empirically known sufficient cause fro dFSCI is intelligence, and the implications of our whole cosmos being unable to scratch search spaces for 1,000 bits or more make the other possible causes, chance and/or necessity, maximally unlikely to create dFSCI. For, such are simply utterly unlikely to ever get to the shores of an island of function. This is backed up by the fact that after a lot of trying, in fact, chance and/or necessity are consistently unable to produce dFSCI; spaces of order 10^50 configs are searchable, but those of order 10^300 or more are not. Just as the analysis predicts. So, I am not surprised to see MG trying to dismiss the positive evidence of what can and does produce dFSCI, what does not, and the warrant provided for inferring that dFSCI is a reliable sign pointing to intelligence as its cause. All that tells us is that the inference from dFSCI as reliable sign to design as credible, well warranted cause, is unwelcome in some circles. Not, that it is unwarranted or lacks evidence, but that the evidence and the warrant are unwelcome. So much so, that we saw above a set of assertions that would instantly demolish the possibility of scientific study of origins, if it were applied consistently. But of course, that is exactly what is not likely to happen: we have logic with a swivel here -- the hyperskeptical objection is being trotted out to dismiss what is ideologically unacceptable, instead of being examined to see if it is a sound criterion of scientific knowledge. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 28, 2011
February
02
Feb
28
28
2011
11:05 AM
11
11
05
AM
PDT
1 8 9 10 11 12 14

Leave a Reply