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On the nature and detection of intelligence: A reply to RDFish

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In a series of recent posts, RDFish has made several penetrating criticisms of the Intelligent Design project, which can be summarized as follows:

(i) the ID project does not currently possess an operational definition of “intelligence” which is genuinely informative and at the same time, suitable for use in scientific research;

(ii) the explanatory filter used by the Intelligent Design community assumes that intelligence is something distinct from law and/or chance – in other words, it commits itself in advance to a belief in contra-casual libertarian free will (the view that when intelligent agents make a decision, they are always capable of acting otherwise), a view which is appealing to “common sense,” but which is highly controversial on both scientific and philosophical grounds;

(iii) the inference to Intelligent Design as an explanation is tantamount to an argument from ignorance: if something cannot be explained by either chance or necessity, it is automatically assumed to be the result of intelligence – a questionable assumption, as there are alternative teleological explanations for the specified complexity that we find in living things, which do not require intelligence;

(iv) any attempt to infer the existence of an Intelligent Designer of the specified complexity that we observe in Nature can be nullified by an equally valid counter-inference: since all of the intelligent designers that we have ever encountered are physical agents which are incapable of thinking in the absence of complex, highly specified, functional interactions between their body parts, we may legitimately conclude that Intelligence can never serve as an Ultimate Explanation for all of the functional specified complexity that we find in Nature. Any Intelligent Designer would have to be a complex, embodied being.

(i) On the definition of “intelligence”

The New Caledonian crow is capable of making hooks with its beak, in order to obtain food. Does that make it intelligent? Image courtesy of John Gerrard Keulemans (Catalogue of the Birds in the British Museum) and Wikipedia.

Why it’s not enough to define intelligence in terms of its effects

I put forward a definition of “intelligence” in the final part of my recent post, On not doing one’s homework: A reply to Professor Edward Feser. In that post, I argued that the attempt to define intelligence in terms of the ability to pursue long-term goals, or even to direct suitable means towards those long-term goals, fails to account for one vital feature of intelligence – namely, the fact that it necessarily involves grasping the form, or essential “whatness,” of a thing:

What does it mean for a being to be intelligent? At first, we might attempt to define “intelligence” in terms of one’s ability to pursue goals – especially long-term goals, which require foresight. But the mere ability to pursue goals does not make a being intelligent: even inanimate objects can be said to do that, insofar as they act in certain determinate ways, yet we say that they act blindly and not intelligently. Nor will it do to define “intelligence” as the ability to pursue long-term goals, as such a definition sheds no light on that whereby a being is capable of attaining these goals. One still wants to know: why are some beings capable of pursuing long-term goals, while others are not?

Could we perhaps define intelligence in terms of the ability to direct means towards certain ends? This sounds more promising. In their book, “The Design of Life” (2008, Foundation for Thought and Ethics, Dallas), Professor William Dembski and Dr. Jonathan Wells define “intelligence” as “any cause, agent, or process that achieves and end or goal by employing suitable means or instruments“(page 3), and on page 315, Dembski and Wells define intelligence in more detail, as “A type of cause, process or principle that is able to find, select, adapt, and implement the means needed to effectively bring about ends (or achieve goals or realize purposes). Because intelligence is about matching means to ends, it is inherently teleological.” …

While the attempt to define “intelligence” in terms of means and ends is genuinely illuminating, it still suffers from one defect: it overlooks form… [For example,] a knife is for cutting, but this definition does not tell us whether a knife has only a single handle, or a blade connected to a handle at both ends. Nor does it tell us whether a knife has only a single blade or multiple blades, as a Swiss army knife does. Finally, the cutting function of a knife cannot tell us whether the blade is straight, L-shaped or even D-shaped, as blades with any of these shapes could still cut well enough. The end alone, then, does not determine the form.

Since a thing’s ends do not determine its form, which makes it the kind of thing it is, we must conclude that the ability to grasp a thing’s ends, and even to direct it through various means towards those ends, does not constitute the nature of intelligence as such. For whatever else “intelligence” means, it surely refers to the ability to grasp a thing’s form or its essential “whatness.”

The same criticisms apply to attempts to define “intelligence” as “whatever it is that generates large amounts of functional, complex, specified information.” This definition is at least minimally informative, in that it tells us that something generates the information. But it is, nevertheless, a flawed definition. Defining an activity or process in terms of its effects tells us nothing about what that activity or process is. All it tells us it what the activity or process generates, which isn’t the same thing at all.

Why intelligence cannot be defined in terms of its ability to grasp the forms of natural objects

Accordingly, some philosophers have attempted to define “intelligence” in terms of the mind’s ability to receive or grasp the forms which characterize different kinds of natural objects – a definition which I find unsatisfactory, for reasons that I explained in my recent post:

For the act of understanding a concept cannot simply be defined as the “receiving” of a form – even a universal one. A key feature of concepts is that they are inherently normative. To entertain a concept of a certain kind of thing is to follow a rule which defines how we should think about that kind of thing. For instance, when I refer to a particle as having a positive electric charge, I thereby acknowledge that it has a disposition to attract negatively charged objects and to repel positively charged ones. Those are the rules that define the way we think about positive electric charges, and we agree to follow those rules whenever we talk about electricity. None of the commonly used spatial metaphors for intelligence can capture the act of following a rule.

Thus we cannot define intelligence in terms of an ability to “receive” abstract, universal forms, or to “contain” these forms, or to be in “immediate contact”with these forms, or to “extract” these forms, or to “grasp” these forms. Receiving, containing, touching, extracting and grasping are not rule-following activities as such. They are spatial metaphors for intelligence, but they do not capture its very essence.

Why language is integral to the definition of intelligence

I then argued that any proper definition of “intelligence” has to include the ability to express one’s thoughts in language:

Thirteen years ago, while I was training to be a mathematics teacher, I overheard a teacher explaining to a colleague of hers why she insisted that her students should show their workings when solving a mathematical problem. She remarked: “If they really understand how to solve the problem, then they should be able to explain why they solved the problem in that particular way. If they can’t, then they don’t really understand.” The teacher’s remark struck me as an insightful one. It encapsulates my reasons for being skeptical regarding claims that the much-vaunted tool-making abilities of crows, whose jaw-dropping feats have been in the news lately, demonstrate a capacity for reasoning on their part. It also illustrates that the definition of intelligence is necessarily bound up with the ability to express one’s thoughts in language.

The crucial point here is that the crows are unable to explain the basis of their judgments, as a rational agent should be able to do. The tool-making feats of Betty the crow look impressive, but we cannot ask her: “Why did you make it that way?” as she is incapable of justifying her actions…

What I am proposing in this post is that the act of understanding a natural object can only be characterized by the ability to specify the concept of that object, and the rules that define its form or essence, in language. This specification has to include a complete description of its “whatness” (or substantial form), as well as its built-in “ends” (finality). Not for nothing do we say: “In the beginning was the Word” (John 1:1).

An objection from RDFish: how could we ever be sure that an Intelligent Designer possesses a capacity for language?

A diagram illustrating the genetic code, according to the “central dogma”, where DNA ic copied to RNA, which is used to make proteins. Shown here are the first few amino acids for the alpha subunit of hemoglobin. The sixth amino acid (glutamic acid, depicted by the symbol “E”) is mutated in sickle cell anemia versions of the hemoglobin molecule. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

At this point, RDFish raises a very reasonable objection. What scientific evidence could we ever have, he asks, that the Intelligent Designer of life possesses the ability to explain His reasons for acting as he did, using language? The answer, as I wrote in my earlier post, is that we can already find evidence of the Designer’s linguistic abilities within living things themselves: they not only contain a digital code, but programs as well:

If each cell in an organism can be accurately described as running a set of programs, written in various programming languages, then since language is a “signature trait” of intelligent beings, it follows that these phenomena obviously require an Intelligent Being to produce them.

Dr. Stephen Meyer has written extensively about the digital code that we find in living things, in his highly acclaimed book, Signature in the Cell. The existence of digital code in living things points to their having had a Designer Who is capable of using language to describe their essential characteristics. But there’s more.

On April 8, 2010, Dr. Don Johnson, who has both a Ph.D. in chemistry and a Ph.D. in computer and information sciences, gave a presentation entitled Bioinformatics: The Information in Life for the University of North Carolina Wilmington chapter of the Association for Computer Machinery. Dr. Johnson’s presentation is now on-line here. Both the talk and accompanying handout notes can be accessed from Dr. Johnson’s Web page. Dr. Johnson spent 20 years teaching in universities in Wisconsin, Minnesota, California, and Europe. Here’s an excerpt from his presentation blurb:

Each cell of an organism has millions of interacting computers reading and processing digital information using algorithmic digital programs and digital codes to communicate and translate information.

On a slide entitled “Information Systems In Life,” Dr. Johnson points out that:

  • the genetic system is a pre-existing operating system;
  • the specific genetic program (genome) is an application;
  • the native language has a codon-based encryption system;
  • the codes are read by enzyme computers with their own operating system;
  • each enzyme’s output is to another operating system in a ribosome;
  • codes are decrypted and output to tRNA computers;
  • each codon-specified amino acid is transported to a protein construction site; and
  • in each cell, there are multiple operating systems, multiple programming languages, encoding/decoding hardware and software, specialized communications systems, error detection/correction systems, specialized input/output for organelle control and feedback, and a variety of specialized “devices” to accomplish the tasks of life.

To sum up: the use of the word “program” to describe the workings of the cell is scientifically respectable. It is not just a figure of speech. It is literal.

Intelligent Design theory, then, demonstrates in a striking way how it is possible to speak of the Designer of life and the cosmos as being truly intelligent, in a meaningful sense of the word. Such a Designer can legitimately be described as an Intelligent Being.

Since it is certainly possible for scientists to examine an object and look for evidence that it contains a digital code or a program, I would argue that the foregoing definition of “intelligence” is scientifically workable as well.

Too strong a definition?

Chaos Computer Club used a model of the 2001 monolith at the Hackers at Large camp site. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

It might be objected that the definition of “intelligence” which I am proposing is too restrictive, since we can easily identify an object as designed, even in cases when we possess neither a blueprint nor a recipe for the production of that object – which suggests that a demonstration of the Designer’s capacity to use language is not essential to warrant an imputation of design. For example, we can tell that a knife is designed for cutting, just by observing its sharp blade and straight edge, and the oft-cited example of the “monolith on the Moon” in the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey shows that we can confidently identify an object as designed, without knowing anything about the reasons, purposes and intentions of its maker.

In reply, I would point out that the design attribution in the fictional case of the lunar monolith was warranted by virtue of the fact that its dimensions were in the precise ratio of 1 : 4 : 9 (the squares of the first three integers) – an astronomically unlikely outcome for any unguided process. To explain the significance of this ratio, we need to employ the language of mathematics.

As regards the example of the knife: there are mathematical features of a knife blade (e.g. its straightness) which also suggest design. We can then Professor Dembski’s explanatory filter to these features, in order to rule out alternative explanations for these features (law and/or chance). In the case of a knife, the imputation of design is less certain than in the case of the lunar monolith, as there are natural processes which are capable of generating straight edges and sharp blades, whereas there are no known processes which are capable of generating the squares of the first three integers in the dimensions of a block of stone.

“But,” it may be objected, “wouldn’t we still be warranted in ascribing a highly complex arrangement of functional parts to a process of intelligent design, even if we were unable to describe the function of these parts in mathematical terms? Surely we don’t have to know the mathematics behind the optical functioning of the eye, in order to see that it was designed?”

The answer to this objection is that it is the specification that describes the function of the complex system which warrants our imputation of design in instances like these. Because the system possesses specified complexity, its function can be described succinctly, in relatively few words. This linguistic description, when combined with the successful application of Professor Dembski’s explanatory filter, gives us confidence that the system in question was indeed designed. What I would add, however, is that not only the function of the system but also its form (in this case, the arrangement of the parts) must be specifiable in human language, before we can be truly certain that the system was designed. I would also suggest that on some level, the form of an object must be capable of being concisely described, if the object in question is genuinely a designed object.

We can see, then, that the additional “language” requirement which I am proposing is hardly an onerous one, and that systems exhibiting functional specified complexity should be able to satisfy this requirement. A fortiori, we can be all the more certain that an object such as a living cell, whose form can not only be specified in language, but also described in terms of a digital code (encoded in the DNA of all living things) as well as a genetic program (which governs that cell’s development into a mature organism), is indeed a designed object.

(ii) Does Intelligent Design theory commit itself at the outset to a belief in contra-causal libertarian free will?

The International Space Station on 23 May 2010, as seen from the departing Space Shuttle Atlantis during space shuttle mission flight STS-132. Barry Arrington has argued, in a post titled, Put Up or Shut Up!, that regardless of whether or not intelligence is reducible to law plus chance, it still possesses certain hallmarks, which enable us to identify it and distinguish it from other processes. He then cited the space station as an example of an object which possesses abundant indicators of having been designed. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

RDFish objects that the explanatory filter used by the Intelligent Design community assumes that intelligence is something distinct from law and/or chance – in other words, it commits itself in advance to a belief in contra-casual libertarian free will. If RDFish had read my 2011 post, The four tiers of Intelligent Design – an ecumenical proposal, he would have seen the solution to his difficulties. In that post, I quoted from an earlier post by Barry Arrington, titled, Put Up or Shut Up!, in which Mr. Arrington argued as follows:

Let us assume for the sake of argument that intelligent agents do NOT have free will, i.e., that the tertium quid does not exist. Let us assume instead, for the sake of argument, that the cause of all activity of all intelligent agents can be reduced to physical causes.

Mr. Arrington contended that even if we make this assumption, for the sake of argument, we can still make legitimate design inferences. As he put it in an earlier post, titled, ID Does Not Posit Supernatural Causes:

For those, such as Aristotle, who believe free will exists, “agency” is a tertium quid (a third thing) beyond chance and necessity. The metaphysical materialist on the other hand must deny the existence of free will. For the materialist, what we perceive as free will or agency is an illusion, the complex interplay of the electro-chemical processes of our brain, which are in turn caused by chance and necessity only.

But the discussion needn’t break down here, because everyone should agree that whether intelligent agents have free will or not, they do in fact leave distinctive indicia of their activities. Did the engineers who designed the space station have free will or where they compelled to design the space station by purely electro-chemical reactions in their brain that can be reduced to the interplay of chance and necessity? For our purposes here it does not matter how one answers this question, because however one answers the question, it is certainly the case that the space station was designed by an intelligent agent. And it is certainly the case that the intelligent agents who designed the space station left indicia of their design by which an observer can distinguish it from asteroids and other satellites of the Earth that were not designed by intelligent agents.

The point is that for our purposes here, we need not argue about whether intelligent agents such as humans have an immaterial free will. Whether free will exists or not, it cannot be reasonably disputed that intelligent agents leave discernible indicia of their activity.

The foregoing passage should suffice to answer RDFish’s objection. Even if one views intelligence as being ultimately the product of law and chance (as materialists do), it still remains the case that intelligent agency has certain distinguishing marks (or indicia) which enable scientists to identify it as such.

In my 2011 post, The four tiers of Intelligent Design – an ecumenical proposal, I also elucidated the role of Professor Dembski’s explanatory filter, by drawing a distinction between proximate and ultimate causes:

At this point, we need to distinguish between proximate and indirect causes, and among indirect causes, we finally need to go back to the ultimate cause. The explanatory filter applies to proximate causes. It can tell us that whatever produced an alien artifact, for instance, must have been an intelligent agent. Likewise, it can tell us that the Being who produced the first living cell in the observable universe must have been intelligent. However, the explanatory filter says nothing about ultimate causes. The explanatory filter alone cannot tell us whether the ultimate cause of a pattern manifesting complex specified information is intelligent or not.

I might observe in passing that as a matter of strict logic, even if “intelligence” were proved to be something distinct from both law and chance, it would not necessarily follow that any entity possessing intelligence would also possess contra-causal free will. For instance, one might view intelligence as some kind of top-down causation, whose activity was determined, but not law-governed. I would like to stress that this is not a view which I take, although I think that animal minds might work in this way. The reason why I mention this possibility is simply to show that the Intelligent Design project does not commit itself at the outset to a particular view of free will – namely, the libertarian view, in which intelligent agents always the possess the power to do otherwise, when they make a choice.

Finally, RDFish may be wondering how one could possibly argue to the existence of a disembodied Intelligence, if Intelligent Design is compatible with materialism. I addressed this objection in my 2011 post, The four tiers of Intelligent Design – an ecumenical proposal:

The claim I am putting forward here is that there are four levels of inquiry in Intelligent Design:

(1) Which patterns in Nature can be identified, through a process of scientific investigation, as the work of intelligent agents? That is, which patterns in Nature can be shown to have intelligent agents as their proximate causes?
(2) Which of the patterns identified in (1) can be shown to have been caused by intelligent agents outside the observable universe?
(3) For which of the patterns identified in (2) as the work of intelligent agents from beyond our universe can scientists rule out chance and/or necessity as the ultimate cause?
(4) Which of the patterns identified in (3) would require an intelligence with an infinite information-generating capacity, and what kind of infinity are we talking about here (aleph-one or higher)?

… Now, I would certainly agree … that the laws of physics themselves require an Intelligent Designer, and I have several times argued for [this] view on Uncommon Descent (see here, here and here). This applies to the laws of the multiverse, just as much as it does to the laws of our observable universe. The Designer of these laws would therefore not be constrained by them, and would be able to contravene them if He saw fit to do so. But this is a Level 3 Intelligent Design argument. And it should be clear by now to readers that Barry Arrington’s recent Put Up or Shut Up! post was about Level 1 of Intelligent Design, not Level 2 or 3.

In short: it is only by appealing to the cosmological version of Intelligent Design (i.e. the fine-tuning argument) that we can establish the existence of a disembodied Designer, Who transcends the physical realm, and thereby refute materialism on strictly scientific grounds. I will have more to say below about the legitimacy of the cosmological argument in part (iv) below, where I address RDFish’s argument that any designer must be an embodied agent.

(iii) Are there alternative teleological explanations for the specified complexity we find in living things, apart from intelligent design?

The bacterium Proteus mirabilis on an XLD agar plate. Professor James Shapiro, an expert in bacterial genetics who champions a non-Darwinian version of evolution via “natural genetic engineering,” discovered that the gut bacterium Proteus mirabilis forms complex terraced rings, an emergent property of simple rules that the bacterium uses to avoid neighboring cells. Professor Shapiro has also shown that bacteria cooperate in communities which exhibit complex behavior such as hunting, building protective structures and spreading spores, and in which individual bacteria may sacrifice themselves for the benefit of the larger community. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

To his credit, RDFish is no fan of Charles Darwin. Nevertheless, he correctly points out that discrediting Darwin does not suffice to establish the reality of Intelligent Design. Other explanations for the functional specified complexity that we find in living things have also been proposed, and RDFish is particularly impressed with the recent work done by Professor James Shapiro, author of Evolution: A View from the 21st Century (paperback, FT press, 2013). Professor Shapiro summarizes his views in a recent article titled, What Natural Genetic Engineering Does and Does Not Mean (Huffington Post, February 28, 2013):

For me, NGE [Natural Genetic Engineering] is shorthand to summarize all the biochemical mechanisms cells have to cut, splice, copy, polymerize and otherwise manipulate the structure of internal DNA molecules, transport DNA from one cell to another, or acquire DNA from the environment. Totally novel sequences can result from de novo untemplated polymerization or reverse transcription of processed RNA molecules.

NGE describes a toolbox of cell processes capable of generating a virtually endless set of DNA sequence structures in a way that can be compared to erector sets, LEGOs, carpentry, architecture or computer programming…

In summary, NGE encompasses a set of empirically demonstrated cell functions for generating novel DNA structures. These functions operate repeatedly during normal organism life cycles and also in generating evolutionary novelties, as abundantly documented in the genome sequence record.

However, Professor Shapiro was candid enough to admit that the origin of major evolutionary innovations (such as radically new functional arrangements of parts) remains an unsolved problem:

While NGE can help in understanding the molecular details of rapid and widespread genome change, it does not tell us what makes genomic novelties come out to be useful. How natural genetic engineering leads to major new inventions of adaptive use remains a central problem in evolution science.

To address this problem experimentally, we need to do more ambitious laboratory evolution research looking for complex coordinated changes in the genome.

If we are able to observe cells coordinating NGE functions to make useful complex inventions in real time, major questions arise. How do they perceive what may be useful?… We need to figure out how to do experiments on this.

If experiments show that cells can make distinct appropriate NGE responses to different adaptive challenges, we need to figure out how they do so. This almost certainly would prove to be more than a strictly mechanical process… If such investigations take evolution science into areas that are more than strictly material, so be it. As long as we stay within the realm of natural processes, there are no boundaries on what science can address.

The protein hexokinase, as shown in a conventional ball-and-stick molecular model. In its simplest form, which is found in bacteria, this enzyme consists of hundreds of amino acids, which belong to a single domain. The proportion of amino-acid chains with a length of more than 100 units which fold up into a protein that can perform a useful biological function is so low that the odds of finding such a protein via an unguided process, even over billions of years, would be less than the odds of finding a needle in a haystack. To scale in the top right-hand corner are two of the protein’s substrates, ATP and glucose. Image courtesy of Tim Vickers and Wikipedia.

But as Professor William Dembski points out in a critical post titled, Is James Shapiro a Darwinist After All? (Evolution News and Views, January 25, 2012), Shapiro doesn’t go far enough in his questioning of Darwinism. He maintains that non-foresighted processes are sufficient to generate evolutionary novelty. The problem with this view is that non-foresighted processes are by definition incapable of searching for a “needle in a haystack,” which, as Dembski points out, is precisely the kind of search we require, in order to account for the origin of the highly complex proteins which we find in living things, each of which has its own specific function:

Neo-Darwinism essentially localizes the creative potential of evolution in genetic mutations. Shapiro rightly sees that this can’t be the main source of evolutionary variation. So he expands it to include “horizontal DNA transfer, interspecific hybridization, genome doubling and symbiogenesis.” Fine, now you’ve got a richer source of variation. But what is coordinating these variations to bring about the increasing complexity we find in biological systems? Shapiro’s answer is “natural genetic engineering.” Cells, according to Shapiro, are intelligent in that they do their own natural genetic engineering, taking existing structures through horizontal DNA transfer or symbiogenesis, say, and reworking them in new contexts for new uses.

But in making such a claim, has Shapiro really solved anything? Has he truly understood the evolution of any complex biological structures? …

Natural genetic engineering would actually mean something, providing genuine understanding of and solutions for the origin of novel biological structures, if Shapiro could point to actual, identifiable mechanisms and show how they take existing structures and then refashion them into new ones. But Shapiro doesn’t do this…

Shapiro doesn’t know the first thing about how natural genetic engineering itself works. What Shapiro knows is the inputs to evolution. Those inputs are richer than the impoverished inputs of Neo-Darwinism, whose main input is genetic mutation. So Shapiro adds symbiogenesis, lateral gene transfer, etc. We are supposed to be impressed. Okay, it’s great that scientists like Shapiro have been able to discover this enriched set of inputs. And Shapiro claims to have discovered a richer transformative principle for these inputs. Darwin gives us natural selection. Again, this is too impoverished for Shapiro. In its place (or, perhaps, supplementing it), Shapiro gives us natural genetic engineering.

But in fact, natural genetic engineering, in the way Shapiro uses it, is no more enlightening than natural selection, which Shapiro to his credit at least admits is bankrupt. But they’re both magic phrases, mantras that claim to provide insight into how evolutionary transformations occur, but in fact offer no real understanding, nor real solutions. We can see this in Shapiro’s latest reply to Gauger and Axe: “well-documented natural processes are more than adequate to explain how protein evolution for new functionalities can occur in a purely natural and combinatorial fashion.”

Come again? “More than adequate”? Such overblown rhetoric ought immediately to set off warning bells. My colleagues and I would be happy with mere adequacy. The problem is that the natural processes Shapiro cites don’t even rise to that level. To explain protein evolution, it’s not enough to point to some known antecedents (genetic shuffling of one form or another) and then merely invoke the label “natural genetic engineering,” as though this explained anything. Far from explaining what needs to be explained, it sidesteps and misdirects from the real question. This becomes evident when Shapiro cites getting new functionalities in a purely “combinatorial fashion.”

As a probabilist, I’ve had to do my share of combinatorics, a branch of mathematics concerned with counting possibilities. The problem is that in genetics and proteomics, the possible gene and protein products are immense, and so the challenge, always, is to find some biologically meaningful path through these combinatorial spaces. So, when Shapiro invokes natural processes that operate in combinatorial fashion, he is in fact explaining nothing about protein evolution but merely restating the problem.

Intelligent Design: not an argument from ignorance

The problem highlighted by Professor Dembski is not unique to James Shapiro’s theory of natural genetic engineering. It is a problem which besets any account of the origin of astronomically improbable structures with a specified function of their own (such as proteins). Foresight, coupled with an ability to visualize and express to oneself the form of the solution to the problem one is trying to solve, is the only kind of process that is capable of generating structures like these.

Finally, as Dr. Stephen Meyer has pointed out, the argument for an Intelligent Designer is not an argument from ignorance, as RDFish contends, but rather an abductive inference, or an inference to the best explanation. The argument is that we discover certain features in some systems (functional specified complexity) which we know that intelligent beings are capable of generating, by virtue of their ability to conceptualize. By contrast, the unguided processes known to us are extremely unlikely to generate these features within the time available. Given what we know, then, the inference that these features were produced by an intelligent agent is a rational one.

(iv) Is Intelligent Design incapable in principle of taking us to a disembodied Designer?

RDFish’s final objection to ID is that even if Intelligent Design inferences were sometimes warranted, they could never take us to an Intelligent Designer of the cosmos. The reason is that since all of the intelligent designers that we have ever encountered are physical agents which are incapable of thinking in the absence of complex, highly specified, functional interactions between their body parts, it is rational to infer, on the basis of known evidence, that any designer would possess a body instantiating the property of specified complexity. Since this designer would be unable to account for the complexity of its own body, we may conclude that there can, in principle, be no global explanation for functional specified complexity, on the basis of intelligent design. Any Intelligent Design project, then, can, at best, explain only some of the functional specified complexity we find in Nature; there will always be a residue that remains unexplained.

RDFish’s point is that the evidence we have for the proposition that any intelligent designer must be a complex, embodied being is just as powerful as the evidence for the proposition that the functional specified complexity we find in Nature was generated by an intelligent designer. Both propositions are amply confirmed by experience, which teaches us that (i) only intelligent agents are capable of generating highly complex systems which perform a specific function, and that (ii) intelligent agents are incapable of doing anything at all without bodies which function in a complex way. I would like to point out that RDFish is not espousing materialism here: his aim is not to show that mind and body are equivalent, but merely that they are inseparable, in our experience. We have no experience of disembodied minds, just as we have no experience of unguided processes generating highly complex functional systems.

However, I believe that RDFish overlooks a vital point. The evidence that we have for all intelligent agents being embodied is inductive: it is based on a sample of all the intelligent agents known to science – namely, living and dead members of the species Homo sapiens, plus a few species of mammals and birds, if one wishes to be very generous in defining “intelligence.”

By contrast, as I pointed out above, the evidence for Intelligent Design is abductive: it consists in identifying the best explanation for a set of observations which are confirmed by experience and careful testing.

To counter this distinction I have drawn, RDFish would need to formulate an argument, showing that a functioning, complex body constitutes the best possible explanation for an intelligent agent’s ability to think, and to design specified complex systems. That would amount to abductive evidence for RDFish’s claim that intelligent agents require functioning bodies, consisting of multiple parts, in order to be able to think.

The only argument I have seen from RDFish on this point is that many concepts – such as the concept of a protein, or for that matter, the concept of a particular body plan characterizing a certain phylum of complex animals – are inherently complex, and that these concepts require a physical medium of some sort, in order to store the information required to express them.

However, the notion that concepts need to be stored makes sense only for a time-bound designer. A Designer Who is outside space and time would have no need to store His concepts in the first place – and hence, no need to encode them in a physical medium.

In addition, I believe RDFish’s argument makes an illicit slide from the formal complexity of the concepts required by an Intelligent Designer to solve design problems, to the material complexity of the bodily parts possessed by all designers known to us. The formal concepts used by a designer to solve problems are by their nature integral to the design process, whereas the material structures used to represent these concepts are not. There is no reason in principle why a designer would need a complex body in order to solve problems. What a designer really needs are complex concepts. The evidence that all intelligent designers are embodied entities is therefore inductive, rather than abductive.

Nevertheless, RDFish might object that nothing could possibly warrant the claim that the cosmos itself was designed. Put simply, we have no experience of anything outside the cosmos: all of our concepts are derived from objects within the cosmos. If we step outside the very framework which supplies us with our concepts, what hope can we possibly have of reasoning soundly? We should therefore stick to what we do well, and confine ourselves to searching for explanations lying within our own cosmos, rather than beyond it.

The flaw in this argument lies in its Humean assumption that all of our mental concepts are derived from experience. There are, however, certain concepts which the mind constructs and then applies to the objects in our experience – concepts such as “agent,” “explanation,” “cause,” “effect,” “control,” “rule,” “nature,” “capacity” and “goal,” to name just a few. There is nothing illicit in applying these concepts to the cosmos as a whole. For instance, we can meaningfully ask whether the cosmos-as-a-whole had a cause, or whether it requires an explanation. We can also identify rules (laws of Nature) which characterize the cosmos-as-a-whole.

I have argued that we can legitimately infer the existence of a Designer of the cosmos on philosophical grounds from the existence of laws of Nature, in my two posts, Does scientific knowledge presuppose God? A reply to Carroll, Coyne, Dawkins and Loftus and Is God a good theory? A response to Sean Carroll (Part One).

In my post, Is God a good theory? A response to Sean Carroll (Part Two), I explain how the existence of an Intelligent Designer of the cosmos-as-a-whole can be defended on scientific grounds, by appealing to the fine-tuning argument, and why invoking the multiverse fails to undermine this argument. If RDFish wishes to peruse these articles and comment on them, he is welcome to do so.

Finally, I defend the intellectual coherence of a bodiless Designer in my 2011 post, Two pretty good arguments for atheism (courtesy of Dave Mullenix).

I hope this post of mine answers RDFish’s questions, and I would now like to throw the discussion open to readers.

Comments
RDFish:
Rather, what the lightning analogy demonstrates is that it is unjustified to conclude that whatever we find to be improbable under natural law as we understand it must therefore be due to “intelligent agency”.
Hey, we agree on that. The explanatory filter requires more than just eliminating necessity and chance before we can infer design. And we realize that not everything can be explained given our current knowledge. Sometimes the best we can do is say "yes it is highly improbable but yet we can't rule out chance and we can't yet justify a design inference". That is when we go back to the beginning to find out why we are investigating this object/ structure/ event in the first place and go from there given all we have uncovered to get back there.Joe
June 24, 2014
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In the last post, I left something out. In the case of 'language,' the 'efficient' cause is, of course, the human larynx when it comes to spoken language, and the 'hand' when it comes to written language. And the 'final' cause varies, but is dependent on human subjects--in the plural since language is meaningless in the singular. So, the 'final' cause of my speaking to you is to find something out, or to inform you of something, or to fool you, or simply to 'chit-chat'. While these 'causes' are obvious when it comes to humans--or even 'birds' [consider that birds use sounds fashioned by their pharyngeal apparati and for a 'purpose', i.e., to let other birds something, or someone, is coming: IOW, "look out"!] all of this is disputed when IDist invoke a Designer. I suspect that the 'science' of ID involves a better and better understanding of 'efficient' causes. Or, put another way, signaling how the ID point of view opens up to science a way of better understanding "how" various forms (species) came to be. Again, got to really run now!PaV
June 24, 2014
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Permit me to throw my "two-cents" worth here. In harmony with what you said above, vjt, . . .
In that post, I argued that the attempt to define intelligence in terms of the ability to pursue long-term goals, or even to direct suitable means towards those long-term goals, fails to account for one vital feature of intelligence – namely, the fact that it necessarily involves grasping the form, or essential “whatness,” of a thing:
. . . I'd like to frame the issue of "linguistics" within the framework of Aristotelian philosophy and his "four causes." I think this helps delineate where arguments come in, and might aid us in developing a working definition of ID. This said, let's first list the "four causes": (from Wiki) 1.) A change or movement's material cause is the aspect of the change or movement which is determined by the material which the moving or changing things are made of. For a table, that might be wood; for a statue, that might be bronze or marble. 2.) A change or movement's formal cause is a change or movement caused by the arrangement, shape or appearance of the thing changing or moving. Aristotle says for example that the ratio 2:1, and number in general, is the cause of the octave. 3.) A change or movement's efficient or moving cause consists of things apart from the thing being changed or moved, which interact so as to be an agency of the change or movement. For example, the efficient cause of a table is a carpenter, or a person working as one, and according to Aristotle the efficient cause of a boy is a father. 4.) An event's final cause is the aim or purpose being served by it. That for the sake of which a thing is what it is. For a seed, it might be an adult plant. For a sailboat, it might be sailing. For a ball at the top of a ramp, it might be coming to rest at the bottom. What we here at ID propound is that teleology is apparent in living organisms. We see this in the genetic code and all of the machinery of the cell which is involved in the 'translation' of this code, and in the construction of needed structures and in their ability to cooperate synergistically. This notion of teleology--which suffuses Aristotle's thinking--is a part of what we, as humans, call 'language.' I would submit that what we know as language embraces all four of these causes, but that language essentially involves the human mind's ability to connect 'formal causes' with 'material causes.' Let me give an example. If I call something a 'chair,' then I mean something that has a level surface about two feet above its base, a base consisting of, generally, four pole-like objects we call 'legs', and which may, or may not, have some other level surface, or restraining surface, that projects up almost vertically from the level surface. The basic idea is that we perceive some kind of "form", which I have tried to describe, present in some MATERIAL object, and this 'linkage' of 'form' and 'matter' forms the basis of what we know as 'language.' {Of course, it is the shape, or form, that matters, and not the size. So, e.g., a 'chair' in a Doll House and a 'chair' which Abraham Lincoln sits in the Lincoln Memorial, both constitute "chair-ness.") Interestingly, when we turn to the two remaining 'causes,' this is exactly where all the criticism of ID springs up. So, e.g., if we invoke a 'supernatural' or some kind of non-human Designer, then we're told that there's no way we can know "how the Designer Designed these things." IOW, how did they come about? IOW, what, EXACTLY, is the "efficient cause." Then, we're told that the "Design" is BAD. I.e., all kinds of parasites, and horrible things that happen in the animal kingdom are paraded before us, and then we're asked: "How could a God="Good" Designer do such a thing? IOW, if the Designer is the author of an object/s "final cause," it's 'purpose,' then what kind of 'purpos-ing' is this? Within the picture I paint, then, what does remain clear is (1) that we locate the principal criticisms of ID with the 'efficient' and 'final' causes, which leaves us (2) the essential notion of ID, which is tantamount to language, and that is the identification of "formal" and "material" causes, an identification that takes place in the mind. From this I think we can conclude, generalizing from the function of language, that ID involves the recognition within living organisms of structures which are related to one another much like that of 'formal' and 'material' causes, i.e., one can be 'translated' into the other. [The whole notion of the "translation" of mRNA is but a direct example of this] ID is concerned with determining whether there is a one-to-one correspondence of 'formal' causes (DNA) with 'material' causes (proteins or ncRNA). As a formal mechanism of making this determination, probabilities--more specifically, improbabilities, based on known laws of nature (including, of course, rules of chemistry)--are used to identify what we term CSI. Got to run now.PaV
June 24, 2014
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vjtorley @342: the fact that natural language is formally capable of describing any kind of CSI we find in the real world.
This is a deep and ponderous statement that deserves serious contemplation by any seeker of Reality.Vishnu
June 23, 2014
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Axel:
Weren’t you right the first time, mung? Have you lost your satellite-navigation thinggy?
I'm always right the first time! :) But I just got my very first sat-nav thingy, so allowances should be made.Mung
June 22, 2014
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Weren't you right the first time, mung? Have you lost your satellite-navigation thinggy?Axel
June 22, 2014
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Thinking of VJT's spirit of 'noblesse oblige' towards RDF, which evidently prompted him to soft-soap him somewhat in that gracious manner he has, when introducing his posts; and that VJT might now find himself in the position of feeling obligated to continue these exchanges with RDF into the far distant future, I was put in mind of the very, very true saying - American, as far as I'm aware: 'No good deed goes unpunished...'Axel
June 22, 2014
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The Fallacy of Assumed Merit RDFish is confused by the fact that VJ Torley created an OP to address his arguments. It's a fallacy to infer that there is no merit in any argument not addressed in an OP authored by VJ Torley.Mung
June 21, 2014
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The Fallacy of Assumed Merit RDFish is confused by the fact that VJ Torley created an OP to address his arguments. It's a fallacy to infer that there is any merit to those arguments.Mung
June 21, 2014
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Perhaps it's time for a poll: Does anyone here who supports ID agree with RDFish that ID holds that events found under natural law are improbable? Is there anyone here who supports ID who doesn't find the very idea of "improbable under natural law" preposterous, perhaps even self-contradictory? Indeed, RDFish, how do we ascertain that which is "improbable under natural law?" The very phrase appears on it's face to be an oxymoron. Surely natural law establishes that which is certain. You can, of course, supply us with numerous examples of violations of the certainties of natural laws.Mung
June 21, 2014
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RDFish:
I’m afraid you’ve missed the point of the analogy entirely. The point has nothing at all to do with CSI. Rather, what the lightning analogy demonstrates is that it is unjustified to conclude that whatever we find to be improbable under natural law as we understand it must therefore be due to “intelligent agency”.
Please don't confuse your ignorance of ID with knowledge about ID. RDFish:
...it is unjustified to conclude that whatever we find to be improbable under natural law as we understand it must therefore be due to “intelligent agency”.
So?Mung
June 21, 2014
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Hi VJTorley,
I agree with your framing of the research project. That sounds like the way forward, for me.
That's great!
Since, by your own admission, language is in fact chock-full of CSI, the observational consequence that will follow if you find something intelligent is that it outputs CSI (whenever it talks).
Yes. A lingual being, in my view, (1) outputs CSI in the form of grammatical utterances, and (2) displays the sort of behavior that we tend call "intelligent" in common usage.
How do we know it’s natural language that enables us to produce CSI in general? That’s a good question. I would say it’s because the CSI we observe in nature is invariably describable in terms of the CSI in natural language. The latter is always broad enough to encompass the former. Language is a tool we can use to describe anything in the cosmos, including the CSI embedded in intelligently designed structures.
Natural language describes a great deal (but it's interesting to note that we cannot articulate everything that we feel and think; some things 'cannot be put into words', such as qualia).
The definition of intelligence which I am proposing is a formal definition. It attempts to explain what it is that intelligence consists in, and also what it is that enables us to produce CSI in the material world. The working hypothesis I am proposing here is that natural language is a universal tool which enables us to generate CSI of any kind. This hypothesis is confirmed by the fact that natural language is formally capable of describing any kind of CSI we find in the real world.
I think this is a little off track: You first define "intelligence" as "the ability to use natural language". We agree that this is a step forward. But then you hypothesize that natural language is what enables us to produce CSI. There's nothing wrong with that hypothesis in terms of clarity, but I personally find it doubtful that it's true (partially because of evidence I've presented regarding non-linguistic intelligence, and partly because of my introspection during creative acts). In any event, this is a new hypothesis and would require research to substantiate. But again, it is this kind of research that could take ID from a pre-scientific status into an actual scientific discipline.
Let’s consider the generalization that all intelligent beings are complex, embodied entities. Since the terms “complex” and “embodied” are themselves defined with reference to entities in our observable universe, this generalization cannot meaningfully apply outside our observable universe.
I would say we have no conceptual tools or language to talk meaningfully about things that do not exist in spacetime. Even the concept of "creating the universe" implies a temporal relation between the time where the universe does not exist and the time when it does.
On the other hand, the formal definition of “intelligence” in terms of the ability to use natural language is not restricted to this or any other universe, or even to the multiverse: it’s an open definition.
I would agree if by "universe" you mean something with spacetime as we understand and experience it.
So it is perfectly meaningful to ask whether our own universe, or for that matter, the multiverse, was intelligently designed.
Yes, that is meaningful, using your definition of "intelligent" (lingual).
Should it be that case that we discover indications that they were designed,
What this sentence means with your definition is "...we discover indications that they were created by entities that could converse in natural language". I can't imagine what sort of indications would lead us to that conclusion, short of discovering a corpus of text or audio recordings of the entities responsible.
...the inductive generalization that all intelligent beings are complex and embodied would no longer apply at these levels, since as I explained above, the terms “complex” and “embodied” are only defined with respect to objects in our own universe.
Why wouldn't those concepts apply in other universes? Again, if you're talking about something outside of spacetime, then I think we are entirely unable to conceptualize anything like that. But if you are talking about other universes like ourse, then I don't see why "complex" and "embodied" don't apply. In short, I think you've constructed an elaborate argument to avoid the conclusion that designers are known to be embodied and complex - one that invokes other universes, multiverses, or entities that exist outside of spacetime. I think this leaves science far behind and puts you well into either theological arguments or science fiction.
That’s why I’m not worried about the complexity of the designer of the cosmos.
I didn't want you to worry about it; my point was that if we rely on our empirical data, we validly conclude that anything that can store and process information and generate CSI-rich artifacts are themselves CSI-rich physical beings.
The basis for my imputing natural language abilities to the the cause of the universe, life, and everything isn’t “analogies to human mentality,” as you allege. Rather, it’s a formal theory of what it means to be intelligent. To be sure, this theory has been developed from observations of human beings, who are the only intelligent beings that we’re personally acquainted with. But I’m not drawing an analogy between the Creator’s intelligence and our own; I’m proposing that on a formal level, the two are of the same kind: both are intimately bound up with natural language.
Fair enough. But I've never encountered this theory before. Have you any reference to a theory of intelligence that claims the use of natural language is what enables humans to produce CSI? Do you have any evidence that this is in fact true? Does that mean that beavers do not create CSI when they build dams? Anyway, I think this is an interesting hypothesis but I'm not aware of any research that lends any credence to it.
At most, discoveries in the cognitive sciences can lend only inductive support to the proposition that anything that uses natural language must be highly encephalized. But as I’ve explained above, since the concept “encephalized” applies only within our universe, there is no need to worry about whether the designer of the universe we live in has a brain or not.
I'm actually surprised that you would rely on other universes or multiverses or things outside of spacetime to support your conclusions, given that none of these things have a shred of scientific evidence.
The claim I’m making here is that anything that exists and that’s generated by an intelligent being must be describable in terms of some natural language.
The first exception that comes to mind is the fundamental nature of reality: We cannot, in fact, fully describe what quantum physics describes by using natural language; we only have a mathematical description. Perhaps you'd like to argue that quantum physics is not intelligently designed?
It seems that our own universe can be described within the framework of natural language: physicists have done a pretty good job of doing so, especially within the last 100 years, and there are grounds to suppose that they will be able to come up with a theory that explains the cosmos as a whole, in the future. Garrett Lisi’s “very simple theory of everything” may prove to be just such a theory.
1) Again, we have no conceptual understanding of what happens at the quantum level, and so we cannot really describe things like photons in natural language; we can use metaphorical language (it is both a wave and a particle) but that doesn't capture what the mathematics actually describe. There are lots of quotes I know you've seen from physicists explaining that "nobody knows what an electron is" and so on. 2) Unified theories (including Lisi's) are highly speculative. And even if one finally succeeds at mathematically describing and predicting all of our experiments, we may still not have a natural language description of what is actually going on.
One corollary of my proposal is that since we human beings are obviously created,
I think you've begun to assume your conclusion here.
... everything that can be said about us must be sayable within some natural language – although I don’t think there could be a human natural language that can encompass everything that can possibly be said about us, as that would get us into all sorts of logical paradoxes. Presumably, then, God’s language is much broader than ours.
And again you've launched into a domain which is as far beyond science as I can imagine. I've made clear many times that I am not interested in challenging people's religious or philosophical views here; I am only interested in discussing what can be claimed as a scientific result. Talking about beings from other universes, or that exist outside of spacetime, or natural languages that God speaks that explain more than our languages.... these things are simply outside of what we can evaluate against the empirical evidence available to our uniform and repeated experience.
I would reply that the bias within Nature that explains why lightning strikes church steeples can be described relatively simply, in just a few words. Hence the specificity of this bias is relatively low and the CSI associated with it is small. By contrast, any hypothetical bias existing within the laws of chemistry which somehow favored the production of amino acid chains that could fold up in a way that allowed them to perform a useful biological task would have to be extraordinarily long and quite difficult to specify, in words. Hence the CSI in question would have to be large, which points to there being an intelligence behind it.
I'm afraid you've missed the point of the analogy entirely. The point has nothing at all to do with CSI. Rather, what the lightning analogy demonstrates is that it is unjustified to conclude that whatever we find to be improbable under natural law as we understand it must therefore be due to "intelligent agency". Thanks again for the exchange. Good luck developing a theory of CSI production based on natural language - I would be very interested to review your progress. Until then, I think it's clear that my criticisms of ID still stand: ID has no scientific warrant to conclude that whatever caused the CSI we observe in biological systems can be attributed to something that has conscious beliefs, desires, and intentions, nor can we conclude that it could explain what it was doing in natural language. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
June 21, 2014
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RDFish@339 - Thank you for your effort in articulating your objections to ID. While I strongly disagree on many points, I want to acknowledge that your reasoned views that are a significant cut above the usual fare. kairosfocus@341 - Wow, what an amazing rebuttal, assemblage, and analysis! It truly sets a standard for a cogent discussion and fair exchange of viewpoints. I saved your post to my hard drive. I would like to reiterate my perspective that both ID and materialistic evolutionary approaches are paradigms, and that the only way to evaluate them is pragmatically---how they benefit or hinder scientific progress. I'm not suggesting that scientific progress is preeminent in our human endeavors, but that it is an intellectual and observational discipline with acknowledged and self-imposed limitations. -QQuerius
June 21, 2014
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By continuing to engage RDFish, UD gives people the mistaken impression that he is actually saying something worth responding to. And seeing that RDFish has already conceded that I have refuted his "argument" what else is there to do but sweep up?Joe
June 21, 2014
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Hi RDFish, Thank you for your post. You write:
In other words, if we adopt your definition, then when we encounter something that understands natural language, that thing is intelligent by definition, and that term does not imply that anything else is particularly true about this thing (it does not necessarily have a physical brain or body, it does not necessarily have the ability to design complex machinery, and so on).
Yes, that's right, although I would add that having a capacity for natural language at least gives you the ability (in theory) to learn how to design machinery.
Essentially, natural languages require thinking about the world at large in order to decode, both to resolve ambiguities at the syntactic level and to interpret the semantics. Formal languages have unambiguous syntax, and have semantics that are limited to an enumerable set of concepts.
Thanks very much for clarifying the distinction between natural and formal languages, RDFish. That's very helpful.
Yes: According to your definition, intelligent things can converse in natural languages, while unintelligent things cannot.
I'm glad you agree that my definition makes a clear distinction between intelligent and unintelligent processes.
The central claim of ID would become “Certain features of the world are best explained by a lingual cause”. I like your definition, and I like calling it “lingual” to eliminate implicit claims and connotations. NEW ID DEFINITION: ID claims that the universe and living things are best explained by a lingual entity. The evidence is…
I agree with your framing of the research project. That sounds like the way forward, for me.
Clearly you are finding this definition too restrictive. So again, the topic at hand is whether or not this distinction you find “very real” can be made clear enough so that calling something “intelligent” will have actual observational consequences. For example, if I tell you that I have something “intelligent” in my office here, you will be able to tell me something that I can observe to be true about this thing... ID would first need to publish some convincing science that shows it is in fact natural language that enables us to produce CSI, rather than, say, some other faculty that enables both natural language and CSI production independently.... ...language is in fact chock-full of CSI. So we know that whatever can use language can produce CSI (at least the kind we see in language). What we do not know is whether we use language to produce other forms CSI, rather than, say, having some more general faculties that enable us to produce both language CSI and other CSI.
Since, by your own admission, language is in fact chock-full of CSI, the observational consequence that will follow if you find something intelligent is that it outputs CSI (whenever it talks). How do we know it's natural language that enables us to produce CSI in general? That's a good question. I would say it's because the CSI we observe in nature is invariably describable in terms of the CSI in natural language. The latter is always broad enough to encompass the former. Language is a tool we can use to describe anything in the cosmos, including the CSI embedded in intelligently designed structures.
That’s true, but it’s also true that all things in our experience that can use language are also complex physical beings – human beings in particular. You want to selectively relax these inductive generalizations, but you lack the justification to do so rationally. Again, if you wish to go the route where we attribute the characteristics of known lingual beings (humans) to all possible lingual beings, then ID runs aground trying to explain how the designer of the first brain used His brains to do so.
The definition of intelligence which I am proposing is a formal definition. It attempts to explain what it is that intelligence consists in, and also what it is that enables us to produce CSI in the material world. The working hypothesis I am proposing here is that natural language is a universal tool which enables us to generate CSI of any kind. This hypothesis is confirmed by the fact that natural language is formally capable of describing any kind of CSI we find in the real world. Inductive generalizations, on the other hand, are not formal definitions but merely material universalizations that hold true for all intelligent agents that we know. Consequently, they are not so tightly bound to the beings they apply to: they could conceivably fail to hold for some being instantiating the concept in question (in this case, the concept "intelligent"). There is another limitation on the applicability of inductive generalizations: at the very most, they can only hold true for beings existing in the domain that the terms in these generalizations apply to. Let's consider the generalization that all intelligent beings are complex, embodied entities. Since the terms "complex" and "embodied" are themselves defined with reference to entities in our observable universe, this generalization cannot meaningfully apply outside our observable universe. On the other hand, the formal definition of "intelligence" in terms of the ability to use natural language is not restricted to this or any other universe, or even to the multiverse: it's an open definition. So it is perfectly meaningful to ask whether our own universe, or for that matter, the multiverse, was intelligently designed. Should it be that case that we discover indications that they were designed, the inductive generalization that all intelligent beings are complex and embodied would no longer apply at these levels, since as I explained above, the terms "complex" and "embodied" are only defined with respect to objects in our own universe. That's why I'm not worried about the complexity of the designer of the cosmos.
In any event, I maintain that your definition of “intelligent” as able to use natural language is a step forward, both because it is operational and because it comports with our intuitive, anthropocentric understanding of “intelligence”. The task for ID is to find a way to scientifically ascertain that the cause of the universe, life, and everything was in fact a lingual being. Since we have no empirical access to the Designer, your strategy is necessarily to infer this by making analogies to human mentality. I've already pointed out that you can't validly inductively generalize across intelligent agents to support your claim that the cause of biological CSI must be conscious, lingual, or anything else, since you aren't willing to infer other attributes such as physical, encephalized, and so on. Your remaining strategy is to turn to cognitive science to demonstrate that anything that produces CSI must in fact utilize natural language in order to do so. But what I think you'll find from cognitive science is that it is already much more clear that anything that uses natural language must be highly encephalized.
The basis for my imputing natural language abilities to the the cause of the universe, life, and everything isn't "analogies to human mentality," as you allege. Rather, it's a formal theory of what it means to be intelligent. To be sure, this theory has been developed from observations of human beings, who are the only intelligent beings that we're personally acquainted with. But I'm not drawing an analogy between the Creator's intelligence and our own; I'm proposing that on a formal level, the two are of the same kind: both are intimately bound up with natural language. At most, discoveries in the cognitive sciences can lend only inductive support to the proposition that anything that uses natural language must be highly encephalized. But as I've explained above, since the concept "encephalized" applies only within our universe, there is no need to worry about whether the designer of the universe we live in has a brain or not.
Why would something that created universes be necessarily able to use natural language? This is way past any science – well into theology.
The claim I'm making here is that anything that exists and that's generated by an intelligent being must be describable in terms of some natural language. It seems that our own universe can be described within the framework of natural language: physicists have done a pretty good job of doing so, especially within the last 100 years, and there are grounds to suppose that they will be able to come up with a theory that explains the cosmos as a whole, in the future. Garrett Lisi's "very simple theory of everything" may prove to be just such a theory. One corollary of my proposal is that since we human beings are obviously created, everything that can be said about us must be sayable within some natural language - although I don't think there could be a human natural language that can encompass everything that can possibly be said about us, as that would get us into all sorts of logical paradoxes. Presumably, then, God's language is much broader than ours. Finally, you write:
My point was that if you assumed an unbiased distribution of lightning strikes, you would expect church steeples to be struck with the same frequency as every other building. When you observed that churches are struck far more often, you would (following ID methodology) say that the theoretical probability of this unbiased system is very low. This would convince you that some “intelligence” was at work. Likewise, when ID assumes that amino acid sequences are unbiased, ID concludes that the theoretical probability of functional proteins is very low, and concludes intelligence was involved. I think it’s a good analogy.
I would reply that the bias within Nature that explains why lightning strikes church steeples can be described relatively simply, in just a few words. Hence the specificity of this bias is relatively low and the CSI associated with it is small. By contrast, any hypothetical bias existing within the laws of chemistry which somehow favored the production of amino acid chains that could fold up in a way that allowed them to perform a useful biological task would have to be extraordinarily long and quite difficult to specify, in words. Hence the CSI in question would have to be large, which points to there being an intelligence behind it. I hope that helps clarify the issues, RDFish. It has been a very fruitful exchange. Thank you.vjtorley
June 21, 2014
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Onlookers (attn, RDF): The rhetorical pattern I am concerned about has just been exemplified by RDF, who after years of exposure has no excuse for strawman caricatures. Let me snip his summary post above, and comment on a few points amounting to a slice of the cake that has in it all the unfortunately fallacious ingredients that decisively undermine his frame of argument: RDF, 339: >> No current theory of evolutionary biology can account for the complex form and function of living organisms.>> 1 --> Actually, the pivotal issue addressed is complexities involved in body plans that involve functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I] . . . including codes and algorithms. As Stephen Meyer noted in reply to an objector to Signature in the Cell:
. . . intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . . In order to [scientifically refute this inductive conclusion] Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk, nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . . .
2 --> Also, the correct reference is to no school of a priori materialist, evolutionism that locks out the possibility that FSCO/I just might have its root in design. Let us remind ourselves of what the leading evolutionary thinker Lewontin said:
the problem is to get [the ordinary people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations [--> notice the loaded, prejudicial language and contempt towards those who dare differ with the lab coat clad atheistical elites . . . the attitude that underlies the slanders and strawman tactics I have objected to], and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting and inherently irrational]. . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [ “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. In case you have swallowed the accusatory dismissal, that this is "quote-mined" please see the wider citation and notes here.]
3 --> I have here emphasised OOL, as this is the root of the tree of life and most clearly focuses the origin of FSCO/I as the usual out of pretending that "natural selection" has wonderful design powers is not presnt at OOL. But in fact for OOL we are looking at for genomes 100 - 1,000 kbits or so of genetic info, for novel body plans -- here on earth not in the observed cosmos -- we need 10 - 100+ mn bits of new DNA dozens of times over, and on the usual timeline within 10 MY or so for the Cambrian revo [not that 80 mn or even 10^17 y would make a dime's worth of difference to the substantial point"]. 4 --> Any blind mechanism dependent on chance to generate high contingency -- the only serious alternative to design for generating contingency required for information to exist . . . mechanical necessity is the opposite of a contingency generating mechanism, it causes reliable lawlike predictable low contingency patterns such as dropping a heavy object near earth leads to initial accelleration at 9.8 N/kg -- will then run into the problem of sampling the configuration space. 5 --> This I outlined in 99 above, which has of course been ducked consistently. Namely, for just 500 bits of FSCO/I, we see that the atomic resources of a solar system of 10^57 atoms, for 10^17 s, and giving each atom 500 coins to toss every 10^-14s, will be able to pull up a fraction of the 3.27 * 10^150 possibilities comparable to a single straw compared to a cubical haystack 1,000 LY across, about as thick as our galactic centre. So, if superposed on our neighbourhood and blindly searched tot hat degree of sampling, we have a confident, all but absolutely certain result: we will pick up a straw, as straw is the overwhelming bulk. This is the needle in haystack principle. 6 --> Extend to 1,000 bits, and we see that he atomic resources of the observed cosmos would be swamped to even greater degrees. The observable cosmos, all 90-odd bn LY of it, would be simply lost in the thought exercise haystack. 7 --> So, once we pass 500 - 1,000 bits, of FSCO/I (which will naturally come in deeply isolated islands of function), the only needle in haystack principle sampling challenge plausible causal source is design. Which is why it is unsurprising that in every case where we see such being caused, the source is a designer. 8 --> This then brings up the next side-tracking irrelevancy: RDF, 339: >>This sort of complex form and function (let’s call it “CSI”) is, in our experience, produced only by human beings.>> 8 --> RDF, in the teeth of being informed otherwise, of course cannot resist redefining CSI to suit his rhetorical purposes. So, let us again pause and give Dembski's longstanding definition on the record in NFL:
p. 148: “The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology. I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity, or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . . Biological specification always refers to function . . . In virtue of their function [a living organism's subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole] . . .” p. 144: [Specified complexity can be defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”
9 --> Likewise, despite repeated corrections on this point at UD for a long time now, RDF cannot resist trying to redefine intelligent agency as human agency. 10 --> But while human beings are intelligent agents, say beavers that build dams adapted to the circumstances of a stream, are also of limited intelligence. So, we have no good reason to confine intelligent agency to human agency. 11 --> Likewise, we deal with possible worlds as well: so long as there are possible states of affairs in which intelligence is exhibited by non-human agents, we have no good warrant to artificially confine our inference from observed agency to require an inference regarding HUMAN agency. 12 --> For that matter, we have no good grounds for locking out the possibility of mind without embodiment as agent. We may not understand how that is possible but it is a serious possibility that should not be locked out by begging questions. 13 --> Where, for instance, we see -- as I just had occasion to note in a different thread:
Value of G [the subject of that thread] is not strongly tied to the sort of resonances that lead to H, He, O and C as most abundant elements in the observed cosmos, with N nearby (& IIRC, 5th for our galaxy). That gives us, stars and galaxies, the gateway to the rest of the periodic table, water with its astonishing properties, organic chemistry’s connector-block element and proteins. Sir Fred Hoyle was right to point to this pattern as a first pivotal manifestation of fine tuning. Even, though the values involved do not run to huge numbers of decimals. This looks like a put-up job on the physics behind our cosmos, and points to there being no blind forces of consequence in physics, chemistry or biology. In plain words — independent of whether we ever get to some prebiotic soup that is reasonable and does somehow throw up living cells, or whether we show that lucky noise driven variation can feed body plan level origination by successive survival based culling out — we have evidence that points to a cosmos set up to facilitate the existence of C-Chemistry, aqueous medium cell based life in terrestrial planets in galactic habitable zones orbiting the right sort of Pop I second generation stars with high metallicity. And, in my view, that is where design theory should first point . . . it decisively undercuts the 150 years of indoctrination on the world of life. Then, with that in hand, we are in a position to ask pointed and politely but firmly insist on sound and prudent answers to questions on the sampling of config spaces given planetary, solar system and observed cosmos scale resources, regarding the plausibility of the origin of codes, algorithms and supportive complex functional organisation by blind chance and mechanical necessity.
14 --> In other words, we have reason to at least be open tot he possibility of intelligent design by minded agent beyond the observed cosmos, indeed, an agent with the skill, power and intent to design and build a cosmos set up for C-Chemistry aqueous medium cell-based life. 15 --> This then raises the focal issue of intelligence, and we should observe the significance of the scare quotes immediately following, on the term INTELLIGENCE . . . as that normally means that the writer -- here, RDF -- dismisses the concept of intelligence as a dubious notion (not to mention, that of a designer): RDF, 339: >>ID argues that the best explanation (let’s call it the “Designer”) for biological complexity can therefore be inferred to be similar to human beings in that both human beings and the Designer have “intelligence”. >> 16 --> Design theory argues that on the vera causa principle and inference to best, empirically and analytically grounded explanation the best explanation for FSCO/I is intelligent design. For reasons that have been outlined above, and which neither RDF not other objectors at UD have had a cogent on the merits answer to for years. 17 --> On Intelligence, let me clip 236 above, which was of course studiously ignored and/or brushed aside by RDF et al without cogently addressing the issues:
So, just what is intelligence, then? (Laying aside selective hyperskepticism.) We may not currently be able to define it any better than we are to define life, or time, or energy etc, but these concepts are reasonable and useful. As a working definition, we may build on Wikipedia’s admission against interest cited in the UD glossary:
INTELLIGENCE: capacities [and so also, the underlying faculties and potentials that give abilities]
a: to reason, b: to plan, c: to solve problems [especially those requiring fresh creative or inventive insight and/or judgement in the face of uncertainties and weighing of subtle pros and cons], d: to think abstractly, e: to comprehend ideas, f: to use language, and g: to learn [i.e. acquire and use knowledge and skills to resolve challenges or attain goals or consciously held purposes,]
. . . [as may empirically indicated by appropriate behaviours that show purposeful creative conceptual activity, often resulting in thermodynamic counter-flow that creatively yields instances of functionally specific and purposeful, complex organisation and/or associated information in code or reducible to such code]
I would suggest that humans fit this and something like a beaver fits a good slice of it. I further suggest that anything that is an actual or possible being — I here advert to possible worlds — fulfills these criteria would be instantly recognised as intelligent, and something that meets a substantial proportion would be seen as at least limitedly intelligent. Such as, a beaver.
18 --> On the meaning of design (we are after all dealing with definition derby games), let me clip from Wikipedia speaking against known ideological bent:
design has been defined as follows. (noun) a specification of an object, manifested by an agent, intended to accomplish goals, in a particular environment, using a set of primitive components, satisfying a set of requirements, subject to constraints [--> which would include acting forces, materials and configurational requisites for function]; (verb, transitive) to create a design, in an environment (where the designer operates)[
19 --> Patently, an entity capable of creating a design and giving it effect would be a designer -- notice the common-d (I am very aware of the loaded insinuation and hoped for invidious association in RDF's scare-quotes capital-D "Designer) -- and would meet the definition of being intelligent as was also just presented. 20 --> Where, in fact, it has been quite plain all along that intelligence, functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, design and designer have reasonable working understandings rooted in a vast body of experience in an information technology saturated high tech world. 21 --> And while we are at it, let us note from the UD glossary, in light of how William Dembski long since defined Intelligent Design as a scientific project, the basis for the view that is under discussion here at UD:
Intelligent design [ID] – Dr William A Dembski, a leading design theorist, has defined ID as “the science that studies signs of intelligence.” That is, as we ourselves instantiate [thus exemplify as opposed to “exhaust”], intelligent designers act into the world, and create artifacts. When such agents act, there are certain characteristics that commonly appear, and that – per massive experience — reliably mark such artifacts. It it therefore a reasonable and useful scientific project to study such signs and identify how we may credibly reliably infer from empirical sign to the signified causal factor: purposefully directed contingency or intelligent design.
22 --> Where, again, we must note what Sir Fred Hoyle so boldly put on the table thirty and more years ago:
From 1953 onward, Willy Fowler and I have always been intrigued by the remarkable relation of the 7.65 MeV energy level in the nucleus of 12 C to the 7.12 MeV level in 16 O. If you wanted to produce carbon and oxygen in roughly equal quantities by stellar nucleosynthesis, these are the two levels you would have to fix, and your fixing would have to be just where these levels are actually found to be. Another put-up job? . . . I am inclined to think so. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has "monkeyed" with the physics as well as the chemistry and biology, and there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. [F. Hoyle, Annual Review of Astronomy and Astrophysics, 20 (1982): 16.]
23 --> And again, in his famous Caltech talk:
The big problem in biology, as I see it, is to understand the origin of the information carried by the explicit structures of biomolecules. The issue isn't so much the rather crude fact that a protein consists of a chain of amino acids linked together in a certain way, but that the explicit ordering of the amino acids endows the chain with remarkable properties, which other orderings wouldn't give. The case of the enzymes is well known . . . If amino acids were linked at random, there would be a vast number of arrange-ments that would be useless in serving the pur-poses of a living cell. When you consider that a typical enzyme has a chain of perhaps 200 links and that there are 20 possibilities for each link,it's easy to see that the number of useless arrangements is enormous, more than the number of atoms in all the galaxies visible in the largest telescopes. [--> ~ 10^80] This is for one enzyme, and there are upwards of 2000 of them, mainly serving very different purposes. So how did the situation get to where we find it to be? This is, as I see it, the biological problem - the information problem . . . . I was constantly plagued by the thought that the number of ways in which even a single enzyme could be wrongly constructed was greater than the number of all the atoms in the universe. So try as I would, I couldn't convince myself that even the whole universe would be sufficient to find life by random processes - by what are called the blind forces of nature . . . . By far the simplest way to arrive at the correct sequences of amino acids in the enzymes would be by thought, not by random processes . . . . Now imagine yourself as a superintellect [--> this shows a clear and widely understood concept of intelligence] working through possibilities in polymer chemistry. Would you not be astonished that polymers based on the carbon atom turned out in your calculations to have the remarkable properties of the enzymes and other biomolecules? Would you not be bowled over in surprise to find that a living cell was a feasible construct? Would you not say to yourself, in whatever language supercalculating intellects use: Some supercalculating intellect must have designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly minuscule. Of course you would, and if you were a sensible superintellect you would conclude that the carbon atom is a fix.
24 --> Noting also:
I do not believe that any physicist who examined the evidence could fail to draw the inference that the laws of nuclear physics have been deliberately designed with regard to the consequences they produce within stars. ["The Universe: Past and Present Reflections." Engineering and Science, November, 1981. pp. 8–12]
25 --> All of this has been on longstanding, easily accessible record. In the case of these three clips, from a lifelong agnostic astrophysicist and holder of a Nobel-equivalent prize. 26 --> I therefore, in light of such evidence -- much of it long since adverted to in the course of the discussions at UD in recent days -- find it very hard to escape the conclusion that we have been dealing with distractions form what is pivotal via red herrings, led away to strawmen duly soaked in ad hominems [the snide insinuations about ignoramus Creationists beg to be openly pointed out . . . ], and set alight with clever talking points in order to cloud, choke, confuse and poison the atmosphere of discussion. 27 --> the answer to such, is simple: go back to the pivotal basics, and clear the air, exposing the fallacies involved along the way. ________________ This, I have done. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 21, 2014
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Onlookers, observe the shoot the messenger rhetorical stratagem being used to distract from the fact of slander of design theories as a whole. Red herrings >> strawman caricatures >> ad hominem laced dismissive arguments. Meanwhile, the false accusations are left standing to do their fell work of well poisoning. Just a FYI on drearily familiar tactics. KF PS: If you are interested in clearing the air of the smoke from burning ad hominem soaked strawmen, and getting back to central issues, you may find here on useful.kairosfocus
June 21, 2014
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My thanks to both VJTorley and Stephen for a stimulating discussion that has helped articulate of the argument more clearly. Intelligent Design Theory 1) No current theory of evolutionary biology can account for the complex form and function of living organisms. 2) This sort of complex form and function (let's call it "CSI") is, in our experience, produced only by human beings. 3) ID argues that the best explanation (let's call it the "Designer") for biological complexity can therefore be inferred to be similar to human beings in that both human beings and the Designer have "intelligence". 4) Most people interpret "intelligence" in this context to encompass the same general range of mental attributes and abilities that human beings have. This would typically include the experience of conscious beliefs, desires, and intentions, as well as the ability to communicate these thoughts in natural language, and of course the ability to produce CSI-rich artifacts. Often times, "intelligence" is also taken to imply libertarian free will. 5) Since ID is being proposed as a scientific theory rather than a theological or philosophical argument, the question I raise is this: Which attributes can be ascribed to the Designer in a way that can be empirically tested? 6) My answer to that question is that there are none. The Designer is defined here simply as whatever (entity, force, system, etc) produced the CSI we observe in biological systems, and so by definition the Designer must be able to produce that CSI. But in my view, ID cannot support any claim about the Designer with empirical evidence - not that it was consciously aware of what it was doing, nor that it could explain what it was doing, nor that it could have done otherwise. 7) The result is that the central claim of ID is vacuous: ID cannot empirically infer one single fact to explain biological complexity. Rationale The argument for this view focuses on three issues. First, ID's inductive generalization over the class of "intelligent agents" is fallacious. Second, ID assumes that conscious thought can proceed independently of brain function, an assertion that is at odds with normal experience and lacks solid evidence. Third, we do not know enough about minds to conclude that some radically different sort of entity would have recognizably similar mental attributes. i. ID as Hasty Generalization Imagining that the Designer had a conscious, human-like mind simply because human beings do amounts to a hasty generalization: We have only one type of CSI-producer in our experience, and we cannot form an inductive inference from that single data point to all other things (entities, forces, systems, or whatever) that produce CSI. It is already clear that the Designer does not share all human attributes (ID does not, for example, conclude that the Designer had a brain or human-like sense organs). But ID has no scientific rationale for attributing some characteristics of humans to the Designer while denying others. So ID has no empirical basis for claiming, for example, that the cause of biological CSI was able to converse in natural language, or that is consciously knew what it was doing. ii. Encephalization Quotients In addition to a lack of evidence regarding the Designer's specific mental attributes, there is some reason to suspect a priori that no conscious, lingual mind could have been responsible for creating life. It is abundantly clear from the evidence of neuroscience that human beings use their brains when they design things, and in our vast experience of human design, there are no instances of anyone designing anything without a functioning brain. Astrobiologists focus on estimating encephalization quotients to gauge the likelihood that alien life forms would reach a point where they could design telecommunications equipment. Even in principle it is impossible to imagine how anything could design something without a complex physical state machine for storing and processing information. Thus, unless ID stipulates that the Designer was actually embodied and highly encephalized, it becomes even less likely the Designer would share mental attributes with human beings, whose brains are involved in every aspect of mentality studied to date. iii. Lack of a Theory of Intelligence There are no theories of intelligence or results from cognitive psychology or neuroscience that suggest any reason why the production of the type of CSI we observe in biological systems would be necessarily associated with other specific mental abilities or characteristics. The only way that ID can make headway toward being a scientific program is to provide findings that support the assumptions that ID makes regarding mental abilities: ID must provide evidence supporting the conjecture that design ability can function independently of brains, that producing the sorts of complex systems we observe in biology necessarily requires natural language abilities and other aspects characteristic of human intelligence, and so on. The most visible proponents of ID to date (William Dembski, Stephen Meyer, Michael Behe, etc.) do not even broach the topic. Objections Here are some objections to this argument, and why I believe they fail: 1) Digital encoding and signalling in the cell constitutes a language, which suggests the Designer was able to use language. But the type of language used in the cell is qualitatively different from natural languages, and insufficient to express arbitrary concepts. The Designer could not explain His choices using DNA sequences. 2) You have no proof that materialism is true This argument has nothing to do with materialism or evolution. 3) There is scientific evidence for dualism and libertarian free will The only scientific evidence for these phenomena would come from paranormal research, include Near Death Experiences. To date the evidence for paranormal phenomena is inconclusive and highly controversial, and ID has not even suggested that such research should be part of the ID program (many ID proponents deny that paranormal phenomena have anything to do with ID). In the end, I think this represents a good argument that demonstrates ID cannot support the claim that whatever caused biological complexity had the mental attributes of a human being. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
June 20, 2014
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RDFish:
I would say that generating and comprehending natural language is a clear operational definition.
Great! So cells are intelligent! Or are you contradicting yourself? The language of cells is a formal language not a natural language. Really?Mung
June 20, 2014
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JWTruthinlove: "Here’s my advice: Read RDF’s comment (272) and follow his example." You may be right, but where would be the fun in that? And now, he is threatening to give RDfish a similar tongue-lashing. That should be entertaining. Not educational, rational or intelligent. But certainly entertaining.Acartia_bogart
June 20, 2014
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Ab, on your nylon-digestion case, Nylon is closely related to proteins. The mods to enzymes to digest same seem well within the FSCO/I limit. We also know that the immune system uses targetted, controlled random variations to pick up on new infections and give rise to effective antibodies. All of that points to a subject that is well within the zone where body plan level systems origin begins, and/or is within a zone where front loaded systems will easily account. Within islands of function. So, side track, of little value. By contrast, we have thousands of protein fold domains which are structurally isolated in AA sequence space, so deeply so that the intervening fields of non-function make incremental origin dubious. Many protein groups have only a few members too. That is an example of an island of function challenge that makes nonsense of the implicit grand incremental extrapolation from Nylonase or the like that you have been trying to put up. RDF and the like have been around UD sufficiently long that they know about such things or pretty well should know. The consistent side tracking, strawman tactics and the like become drearily familiar after a while and give the general impression of ideologies propped up by lab coat clad talking points, not serious engagement. When you come up with cases where blind chance and mechanical necessity start being actually observed giving rise to novel functionally specific bio info beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of increment, then that would be interesting. Remember, design theory does not deny the possibility of micro evo by chance plus necessity, e.g. circumpolar species or insecticide resistance etc. The issue pivots at the FSCO/I threshold. Which has been given quantitative values and supporting rationale since the mid-late 90s. 500 bits should ring a bell. KFkairosfocus
June 20, 2014
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RDF, re 272: I spoke sharply to Ab because he lied, specifically, slandered. Until we move beyond that crude level of agitprop inspired by NCSE etc, no genuine progress will be possible. As to the main issue in this thread, I have addressed it long since. So, I think you too are drifting off from respect for duty to truth. Please, don't. KFkairosfocus
June 20, 2014
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@Acartia_bogart: Here's my advice: Read RDF's comment (272) and follow his example.JWTruthInLove
June 20, 2014
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F/N: Have a read of Chs 5 - 7, esp ch 6 in Darwin's Descent of Man, then come back to us on whether or no he had racist influences. As a clue, Irish and Scottish are close cousins, and the "Saxons" are the English upper classes, he dares not say Anglo-Normans . . . i.e. descendants of settled Norse pirates who first seized a good slice of France then attacked England in 1066. His comparisons about wiping out apes and inferior human races in Ch 6 say a lot also. As reasonable comment any prominent Englishman in late C19 would almost certainly have struggled with racism. H G Wells' War of the Worlds was in part a response, as can be seen in the opening words of Ch 1 which echo Ch 6 of Descent of Man with a twist that puts the shoe on the other foot. But again that is a loaded red herring tangent, I simply note on a needed correction, and will now heed the point don't feed da trollz. KFkairosfocus
June 20, 2014
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Ab: You have not made broad brush statements, you have slandered people by speaking with utter disregard to truth and innocent reputation. If you do not know that your statements are false, defamatory and irresponsible or bigoted, you SHOULD know. In short, you continue down the same road. This underscores the problem. KF PS: Onlookers, go to 99 above to see examples at 101 level that decisively undercut any claims on Ab's part that he is making fair, responsible comment. I just note that comments 98 and 99 are by coincidence both by graduate trained physicists. And, I hardly need to say that you don't pass first year undergrad physics if you are as Ab has tried to portray in his strawman caricatures. Indeed, you likely won't get into such a class if you are like that, and will bomb out fast if you do somehow get in. That is, the caricature bears zero resemblance to reality. If you scroll up to the OP, you are dealing with a graduate trained philosopher, and I assure you, you don't get that far in any scientifically linked field of phil if you are as Ab caricatured. This pattern I am red-flagging, of course is all too common and it seems to be an example of today's parallel to willfully blind racist bigotry . . . something I also know a tad about. But the bottomline is, this is a sidetrack. We now know what we are yet again dealing with in yet again another drearily familiar case of a priori ideologies imposed on science and their influences over even those who are not formally materialists. Sad, but not surprising. Ab joins the list of those unresponsive to duty and evidence. PPS: The main issue in the thread is detection and definition of intelligence in the context of signs that point to intelligent cause. And for that it is fairly clear that we routinely observe such, starting with the FSCO/I in text in posts in this thread. There is simply no credible basis for suggesting lucky noise and/or mechanical necessity as source of complex, sense-making natural language text. We routinely, habitually infer to design on such, and that is a first index of design. As to intelligence, it is in the first instance an attribute that allows one to compose and comprehend such language, and to use it in solving problems requiring reasoned insight and inference. We can go on from there.kairosfocus
June 20, 2014
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Kairofocus, Just a little evidence of the dissembling that ID proponents use when presented with evidence of a new function arising from random mutation and being fixed in the population by natural selection. "Nylon is a man made design. Would nylon eaters be considered unguided random Natural Selection or guided nonrandom Artificial Selection?" One of my statements that got your shorts in a knot was that ID arguments are largely based on science's inability to demonstrate the naturalistic origin of complex function through direct observation or experimentation (eg, origin of life or the origin of new function). I then said that if science was able to do any of this, ID would simply spin this and say that this was evidence of ID because it was the result of human intelligence. I rest my case.Acartia_bogart
June 20, 2014
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Andre, I think that you would be hard pressed to find an evolutionary biologist who thinks that Darwin got everything right. We know he didn't. I don't have evidence to support this but I would be willing to bet that Darwin is mentioned far more often in the ID crowd than he is in the evolution crowd. Darwin gets the same respect as Newton and Einstein simply because he was the first to formalize a theory that still stands up fairly well after a century of research, observations and experiments. And, as with Newton and Einstein, he wasn't right about everything.Acartia_bogart
June 20, 2014
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Bogart I may not speak for all here, but the issue is not evolutionary theory the issue is Darwinian evolutionary theory. Darwinian evolution is poppycock, perhaps also read and lookup Alfred Russel Wallace and Jean Baptiste Lamarck? Perhaps then you may realise that what the angry old coot Darwin is wrong about almost everything, but because it allows you to be a intellectually fulfilled atheist people cling to it anyway, Just imagine if we give chance a chance in time anything can happen.....Andre
June 20, 2014
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Hi Stephen,
I think that you are being a bit unfair by calling the vast and varied experience of human design a single data point.
The vast and varied experience of humans has enabled us to make the strong inference that all human beings are capable of producing CSI. You haven't actually tested every human being, but we agree this is not a hasty generalization, but rather a well-supported inference. (There are statistical tests to tell us how large a sample size we need, but we agree that our experience with humans leaves no doubt that we can conclude that humans invariably produce can CSI, have brains, and so on). But when generalizing over different types of CSI-producers, this is only one single data point, and inferring that other types of CSI-producers would indeed be a hasty generalization.
That aside, does this mean that you consider that my argument would be valid if I had more data? I’m curious to know how many data points I should have. Is there some rule that makes inductive logic valid once it has a certain number of data points?
Inductive inferences become stronger with more observations, yes, but there is no cutoff that indicates absolute certainty.
The answer of course is that no amount of supporting data will turn an inductive argument into a proof.
We've had this discussion before, yes. "Proofs" are found only in mathematics and logic.
No matter how many white swans I produce it will never conclusively prove that there are no black swans. That is the nature of science.
Of course. That is why statistics were invented, to assess the likelihood that one is correct. Usually a 95% certain result is accepted, sometimes scientists use a 99% criterion. But we needn't worry about that, because nobody believes that one can perform a useful inductive inference based on a single data point.
You may not be impressed by my ‘single data point’ but that is not a contrary piece of evidence or a valid counter argument. It is simply an expression of your personal dissatisfaction with the evidence provided.
No, it is a hasty generalization, which is a fallacy (look it up). Again, your strategy here has two failings: 1) Your conclusion that all different types of CSI-producers share all attributes is a hasty generalization, based on a single type of CSI-producer 2) Your immediately concede that your generalization does not in fact hold for all CSI-producers, since the creator of the universe could not have had a brain, eyes, any sort of physical body at all, and so on. Cheers, RDFish/AIGuyRDFish
June 20, 2014
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Kairos focus, Yes, I have made some broad stroke statements about the motivations and tactics of ID as a movement. And I have not seen anything to suggest that I may be in error. There are many who comment on UD that don't fall into this mold but there are many more that do. Since you seem to be so upset by my statements, I can only assume that they hit close to home for you. And, again, I will not apologize for that. The majority of articles and comments on UD have the sole purpose of painting evolutionary theory with broad strokes, many of them based on questionable conclusions from research (eg, ENCODE) or misrepresenting and quote mining (eg, the subtitle of Origin of Species is proof that Darwin was a racist) or dissembling when research has shown that non-guided evolution can do things that ID claims that it can't (eg, random mutation creating new function that becomes fixed in a population due to natural selection). Yet, I have not seen anyone, not even evolutionists, demand an apology on UD for these false claims, statements and accusations. When you start wearing big boy pants, I might start taking your criticisms seriously. But until then I will simply draw amusement from them.Acartia_bogart
June 20, 2014
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