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On Invoking Non-Physical Mental States to “Solve the Problem” of Consciousness

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A. Reciprocating Bill asks a question

In a comment to a recent post Reciprocating Bill asked why I believe invoking non-physical mental states “solves the problems of consciousness.” It is an interesting question, but not for the reason Bill intended. It is interesting because it betrays Bill’s fundamental misunderstanding of the argument he purports to be critiquing (I am not picking on Bill in particular; I am merely using his error as a platform to discuss the same error that materialists always make when discussing this issue). In this post I will show how Bill’s misunderstanding stems from his inability to view the world outside of the box of materialist metaphysics in which he has allowed himself to become trapped. I will also show that if Bill were ever able to climb out of that box and open his mind to a different, wider (and for that reason superior) ontological perspective, he would realize that consciousness is not a “problem” to be solved but a datum that must be accounted for in any robust ontology.

Here is Bill’s question in its entirety:

In Reference and Reality Hilary Putnam parenthetically remarked, “As Wittgenstein often pointed out, a philosophical problem is typically generated in this way: certain assumptions are made which are taken for granted by all sides in the subsequent discussion.”

I’ve often genuinely wondered why anyone believes that invoking dualism, and in particular an ontology that includes something like nonphysical mental states, solves the problems of consciousness, intentionality and so forth. It’s a fair question to ask how physical systems (like brains and their states) can be “about” other states, can be conscious, etc. But to respond to this difficulty by invoking a dualist ontology, and then assigning intentionality (and or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency) to the nonphysical side of one’s dualistic coin is to my ear an absolutely empty response.

That is because no one has the slightest notion of how a nonphysical mentality might instantiate intentional states (or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency), or how one might go about investigating those questions. How is a nonphysical mentality “about” something else? At least brain states offer many intriguing hooks vis the complex nature of sensory consciousness and representation that may or may not yield insights into this question as cognitive neuroscience progresses.

There is no science of non-physical mentality, nor do i see how there could be one. Ultimately, I suspect that the sequestering of phenomena such as intentionality, consciousness and agency within nonphysical mentality works for many simply because such qualities are smuggled in as the immaterial mind (or soul, or intelligence, or agency, or consciousness, or whatever) is defined as that which nonphysically bears intentionality, consciousness, agency, etc. independent of material states, To then “explain” those phenomena in nonphysical terms becomes essentially a exercise in tautology. But how or why that might be the case, or how to make that notion do any work, no one has clue.

B. The mind is immaterial

While a human is alive his mind and his brain are connected. No one doubts that. Just as assuredly, no one doubts that their own immaterial mind exists. And when I say no one doubts that, I include people like Sam Harris who say they do. Harris does not really doubt that his own mind exists. How do I know? Well, I am fairly sure Harris is not insane, and only an insane person asserts as false that which he must know to be true. It is an odd thing though. If Harris were to say “I’m a poached egg” they would put him in a padded room. But if he says the ontologically equivalent “I’m a meat robot,” they give him a book contract.

Denying that one’s own immaterial mind exists is nuts on the order of “I deny that the pronoun ‘I’ in this sentence has any antecedent.” And Sam Harris, like everyone else, knows for a certain fact that there is indeed an antecedent to that pronoun. Because the existence of one’s immaterial mind is self-evident, its existence can be denied only on pain of descending into patent absurdity. But that is not the only reason we can know with absolute certainty that our own immaterial mind exists. (Yes, I said “absolute” for that knowledge is not corrigible). Here are five more:

1. Thoughts are immaterial.

Think about a horse. Is the thought in your head about a horse an actual horse? Of course not. Is the thought in your head a material thing at all? Obviously not. Think about the number four. I don’t mean count four things. I mean think of the concept of “four.” Is the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No. Is your thought about the abstract concept of “four” a material thing? No. It follows that thoughts are immaterial, and this is especially obvious when we are thinking about immaterial things such as abstract concepts.

Any attempt to deny this founders immediately on the shoals of the interface problem – how can an immaterial concept interface with a material object? On materialism, consciousness must be reducible to a configuration of physical things (whether we call those physical things “atoms” or “molecules” or “neurons” does not matter; the point is they are physical things). Consider any abstract concept; 2+2=4 will do. Merely saying 2+2=4 is represented somehow in the brain by a configuration of firing synapses does not get you there. 2+2=4 is represented in the pixels of the computer screen in front of you right now. Is your computer screen conscious? Obviously, an immaterial mind has no problem interfacing with an abstract immaterial concept. The burden is on the materialist who asserts that material things can interface with immaterial things to show how that can possibly be true.

2. Material objects cannot exhibit intentionality.

As the Wiki article states, “intentionality” is “the power of minds to be about, to represent, or to stand for things, properties and states of affairs.” Rocks do not exhibit intentionality. A rock does not, for example, have the capacity to assert a belief such as “Washington was the first president.” Similarly, the sentence “The group of oxygen atoms believed that Washington was the first president” is absurd. What is true for oxygen is also true for the atoms of the other elements of the body, i.e., carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, etc.

Suppose one gathers together all of the various elements that compose a human body (i.e., oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, etc.) and mixes those chemicals up in exactly the same quantities and proportions that are found in a human body and puts it all in a bag. That bag of chemicals does not have any more capacity to assert a belief than a rock. Intentionality obviously exists; any attempt to deny its existence would be incoherent. It would be like saying “I believe there are no beliefs.” It follows, therefore, that intentionality exists and that it is not a property of a physical thing. Hence, it is a property of an immaterial mind.

In order to rebut this assertion the materialist would have to explain what is special about a bag of chemicals configured as the human body that it should all of a sudden acquire the capacity for intentionality when the same a different bag of the exact same chemicals does not. The usual response of “it’s all emergent and stuff” is a non-starter. Unless you show how the physical gives rise to the mental, “it’s emergent” is the equivalent of saying “it’s magic!”

3. Qualia are immaterial.

Suppose a person, let’s call her Mary, has a brain disease that makes her see everything in black and white. Mary watches the sun set every night and reads books on sunsets and has spectrometers that tell her all of the pertinent information about the colors of every sunset she watches such that she has complete information about the physical properties of sunsets. Suppose further that one day Mary is cured of the disease and that evening for the first time she sees the colors of the sunset in all the fullness of their glory.

Does Mary now know something about sunsets that she did not know before she was cured? Of course she does. She now has knowledge about her subjective experience of the various colors of the sunset that she did not have before. But Mary did not have any more information whatsoever about the physical properties of sunsets. It follows that her subjective experience of the sunset (e.g., how she might describe the reds as “warm”) cannot be reduced to the physical properties of the sunset which she already knew. Hence, qualia such as this cannot be reduced to physical properties and are therefore immaterial.

4. Subjective self-awareness is immaterial.

As I type this I am looking at an orange bottle on my desk. When I look at the bottle I experience subject-object duality. I experience myself as a subject and the bottle as an object perceived by the subject. Not only do bags of chemicals not have the capacity for intentionality, but also they do not have the capacity for perceiving subject-object duality or any other quality of subjective self-awareness. It follows that subjective self-awareness is the quality of an immaterial thing (i.e., the immaterial mind).

5. The unified consciousness is immaterial.

Here is a “problem” that neuroscience can never hope to address, much less solve. How can the unity of our consciousness be explained by discrete brain events? Do you perceive your own consciousness as this state followed by this state followed by this state followed by this state, ad infinitum? Of course not. Like everyone else you experience your own consciousness as a unified seamless whole. This is not surprising. In fact, it is necessary, because the “self” of which we are subjectively self-aware would not be much of a “self” unless it were a unified self. Thus, intentionality, subject-object duality, and all other aspects of consciousness depend on the existence of this unity.

Neuroscience cannot, in principle, account for this unity for a very simple reason – science operates at the level of composites. We are just a “pack of neurons” Crick says. But how can a pack (i.e., a composite) of individual physical pieces be aware of itself as a unified whole? The question is unanswerable. It follows that the unity of consciousness that every one of us experiences is not a property of a pack of neurons. It is a quality of an immaterial mind.

6. Summary

I will allow David Bentley Hart to summarize for us.

[The] intuitions of folk psychology are in fact perfectly accurate; they are not merely some theory about the mind that is either corrigible or dispensable. They constitute nothing less than a full and coherent phenomenological description of the life of the mind, and they are absolutely “primordial data,” which cannot be abandoned in favor of some alternative description without producing logical nonsense. Simply said, consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is quite real (as all of us, apart from a few cognitive scientists and philosophers, already know— and they know it too, really). And this presents a problem for materialism, because consciousness as we commonly conceive of it is also almost certainly irreconcilable with a materialist view of reality.

David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God

The material mind is a datum. As Hart says, it is the primordial datum. It is a datum that is known by everyone, because it cannot not be known. Thus, when I assert that the mind is immaterial I am not making an argument. I not advancing an “explanation.” I am not trying to “solve a problem.” I am merely stating a fact, a self-evident fact at that.

C. Answering Bill’s Questions.

With all of that as preface, let us turn to Bill’s questions.

1. I’ve often genuinely wondered why anyone believes that invoking dualism, and in particular an ontology that includes something like nonphysical mental states, solves the problems of consciousness, intentionality and so forth.

As I said, I am not attempting to solve the problem of consciousness. Further, I deny that such a thing as the “problem of consciousness” exists, if by “problem” one means a conundrum posed for a solution concerning whether the mind exists. I invoke an ontology that includes nonphysical mental states not to solve a problem but merely to account for the data. To do otherwise would be manifest error. It is an indubitable fact that nonphysical mental states exist, and therefore any ontology that has no room for nonphysical mental states is, by definition, erroneous, incomplete or both.

Facts are stubborn things as John Adams famously said. Denying facts does not make them go away. I readily admit that the fact of the existence of the immaterial mind is not anodyne to those who insist on a materialist metaphysics. But I would point out that if one’s metaphysics conflict with the facts, that is not a problem with the facts. It is a problem with one’s metaphysics.

2. It’s a fair question to ask how physical systems (like brains and their states) can be “about” other states, can be conscious, etc.

It was not intended to be a fair question Bill. It is a rhetorical question, asked only to emphasize that the only coherent answer is “they can’t be.”

3. But to respond to this difficulty by invoking a dualist ontology, and then assigning intentionality (and or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency) to the nonphysical side of one’s dualistic coin is to my ear an absolutely empty response.

What difficulty? There is no difficulty unless you’ve set out to do the impossible by ascribing the attributes of consciousness (intentionality, qualia, unity, etc.) to objects such as atoms or rocks or amalgamations of chemicals. No one “assigns” consciousness to immaterial minds any more than anyone assigns “seeing” to eyes. And that an immaterial mind is the locus of your consciousness is as evident as your eyes are the locus of your capacity to see (perhaps even more evident; blind people think after all). If acknowledging self-evident facts seems somehow “empty” to you, the problem is assuredly with your perception and not with the facts.

4. That is because no one has the slightest notion of how a nonphysical mentality might instantiate intentional states (or consciousness, or selfhood, or agency), or how one might go about investigating those questions. How is a nonphysical mentality “about” something else?

The “interaction” problem is a function of blinkered metaphysics. Adopt a more robust metaphysics and the problem vanishes. Hart again:

In Western philosophical tradition, for instance, neither Platonists, nor Aristotelians, nor Stoics, nor any of the Christian metaphysicians of late antiquity or the Middle Ages could have conceived of matter as something independent of “spirit,” or of spirit as something simply superadded to matter in living beings. Certainly none of them thought of either the body or the cosmos as a machine merely organized by a rational force from beyond itself. Rather, they saw matter as being always already informed by indwelling rational causes, and thus open to— and in fact directed toward— mind. Nor did Platonists or Aristotelians or Christians conceive of spirit as being immaterial in a purely privative sense, in the way that a vacuum is not aerial or a vapor is not a solid. If anything, they understood spirit as being more substantial, more actual, more “supereminently” real than matter, and as in fact being the pervasive reality in which matter had to participate in order to be anything at all. The quandary produced by early modern dualism— the notorious “interaction problem” of how an immaterial reality could have an effect upon a purely material thing —was no quandary at all, because no school conceived of the interaction between soul and body as a purely extrinsic physical alliance between two disparate kinds of substance.

David Bentley Hart, The Experience of God

5. At least brain states offer many intriguing hooks vis the complex nature of sensory consciousness and representation that may or may not yield insights into this question as cognitive neuroscience progresses.

If by “intriguing hooks” you mean facile speculations about how the unbridgeable ontological gulf between the physical and mental is not so unbridgeable after all, I might agree. But if you are actually holding out hope that the gulf will be bridged, you are bound to be disappointed, because the mind is not the brain.  Materialists are addicted to debt.  The constantly issue epistemic promissory notes that a moment of ontological reflection would reveal they cannot possibly pay.  Bill, the bottom line is this:  Neuroscience will continue to progress, but it will never progress to the point where it do the impossible — collapse the distinction between the ontological categories “physical” and “mental.”

6. There is no science of non-physical mentality, nor do i see how there could be one.

That is kind of funny, because you appear to be saying in all earnestness that if a fact cannot be investigated through the methods of science, it is a problem with the fact (and not merely evidence of the limitations of science). Let’s unpack this. You seem to be advancing an argument that can be broken down as follows:

There are no facts except those revealed to us by science
Science has not revealed to us the existence of an immaterial mind
Therefore, immaterial minds do not exist.

Surely you know that the major premise cannot possibly be correct as a matter of simple and indubitable logic – because that premise itself has not been revealed to us by science. Therefore, if it is true it must as a result be false. For another thing, as we have already seen, the existence of the immaterial mind is an undeniable fact. Therefore, any argument that leads to the conclusion that it is not a fact must, by definition, be faulty.

7. Ultimately, I suspect that the sequestering of phenomena such as intentionality, consciousness and agency within nonphysical mentality works for many simply because such qualities are smuggled in as the immaterial mind (or soul, or intelligence, or agency, or consciousness, or whatever) is defined as that which nonphysically bears intentionality, consciousness, agency, etc. independent of material states, To then “explain” those phenomena in nonphysical terms becomes essentially a exercise in tautology. But how or why that might be the case, or how to make that notion do any work, no one has clue.

The only reason you suspect that is because of the poverty of your metaphysics. Free yourself. Allow yourself to think beyond the comfortable contours of your metaphysical box, and you will see possibilities you were never able to see before. I promise.

Comments
@Tim,
Correcting something that I did not write! I did not say it was a utm, but a physical embodiment of one. Based on eigenstate’s own description of what a brain is, i.e. an electrical circuit, my description is not even controversial.
The brain is not a physical instance of a UTM, and not just because it has finite storage. A Turing Machine has an interpreted (computer) language that is read off the tape, and which is "Turing Complete" in terms of its language features -- see here, for example. Modern computing languages are generally Turing Complete, but of course, the brain is not a computer like that, and you can't submit a program to your brain to execute as provided from a Turing machine. The brain is not a Turing Machine, but if you were right about that, you'd have only undermined your point further. If you recall the history of Turing the man, Turing machines, and the Turing Test, both intentionality and intentions were part of the plan. That is, to pass the Turing Test, any successful computing platform would have to satisfy the interrogator that the machine was a human -- a human with both intentions and intentional stances (again, different concepts, which I'm not convinced your clear on, but both are implicated, here). So a Turing's project was to build a computer that would have "about-ness" -- and not just intentionality at a basic level such as a thermometer might have, but "meta-intentionality", the state of "about-ness" targeted at its own "about-ness". As a practical matter, the machine would have to be able to discuss with the interrogator it "what it was thinking about", for example. All of which to say, anyone familiar with Turing, or the strong AI project he founded, will understand this as incorrect: "And as we all know UTM’s cannot, even in principle, have intentions". That is not something "we all know", not hardly. The strong AI thesis directly contradicts this claim.
He then mentions plasticity and reconnecting, but so what? the brain remains but a complex electrical circuit. Oh, and the fact that its “memory” (read “tape” for utms) is finite is but a further limitation, and yet only a distinction that makes no difference. I do note his cheery reference to strong AI; I won’t pick on him here beyond filing it under well, how about science fantasy?
Yes, like rockets to the moon, and wireless phones (!) and a "world wide web"!
I am certainly not confused about intentionality. eigenstate writes that his mac intends to do things . . .
In the first sentence here you claim you are not confused about intentionality. Then in the very next sentences, you demonstrate that you still do not understand the distinction between "intention" and "intentionality". Please read this. Note this bit near the top:
Why is intentionality so-called? For reasons soon to be explained, in its philosophical usage, the meaning of the word ‘intentionality’ <b<should not be confused with the ordinary meaning of the word ‘intention.’
(emphasis mine)
. . .just my Mac, here — “intends” to find a qualified target — some string in my source code. I, as the programmer, intend to find the string, and do so by manipulating the machine such that it takes on this goal, This is either a blatant example of smuggling, or an obvious example of losing track of the active and passive form of the verb “to intend”. The mac intends nothing; it is superintended by you.
It is designed to take on any number of intentions, intentions given to it by a human user, or by other computers is it is connected to. There's nothing to "smuggle"; the utility of the system obtains from being able to perform tasks on our behalf, or on the behalf of other machines. It's a basic design goal for platform. The fact that I "superintend", or just give it a search target for a file name to search for on my drive in no way negates the goal-orientation of the process running on the computer. In AI implementations, these targets and tasks just become more and more autonomous and internal to the system, deriving from a smaller, higher-level set of general goals than the small task I assign to my mac in looking for a particular file.
I will offer you a couple ways out: 1) If, on materialism, a human brain is not a physical embodiment of a UTM, tell why. (Here, I believe you have a problem as you have already described it as a circuit, but that’s just me.)
UTM != circuit. See above on your confusion about UTMs. The brain has electrical circuitry (syntactical circuits), but it's not circuitry like you'd find in a computer. This claim is wrong and confused on several levels. Worse, even if the brain was a Turing Machine, that would only undermine your claim that "we all know" it can't have intentionality or intentions (different but relevant capabilities).
or, 2) If, on materialism, a human brain is a physical embodiment of a utm, but utm’s have intentions, explain how this could be. ( . . . a tough row to hoe, as all you have is a set of directions, a reader, and a tape, again that’s just me.)
This is the strong AI thesis. Maybe read up a bit on it! What did you suppose strong AI was planning to use for any implementations it worked on? "Tape" is an obsolete term that was current in Turing's day -- it's just persistent storage now -- an SSD drive fulfills that role in my Mac. But the computing architecture remains.
or, 3) On materialism, we don’t actually have intentions, but it’s nice to think we do. (uuuuuhhhhh . . . you can have this one.)
Well, on materialism, you don't have intentions the way you think you do -- some supernatural agency attached (!??!) to your brain comes up with a goal or a target plan. There's no need or support for that in the model, nor any evidence for it as actual. So in that sense you are right: on materialism, your understandings about how "intending" happens would be incorrect, and would need significant revision to be correct (and mine would too, to the extent I indulged those supernaturalist intuitions). But that is not to negate "intending" as a real and causal aspect of the mind in humans (and other animals), or machines (although we would not likely ascribe any such intentions to its "mind", unless and until such time as the become sufficiently human-like for the term to be useful).eigenstate
May 14, 2015
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goodusername
Move a Word doc from one part of the hard drive to another, or even to a different drive, and we’d say it’s the same file.
If it's an analogy of the self, then no - it's not the same file. We can determine the difference between the original and the copy also (date stamped). The pattern of molecules cannot be what distinguishes the self in human beings. If it was, then the sense of self would change as the molecular patterns change (and they do change over the course of a human-lifetime). The patterns change, but the same-self persists.Silver Asiatic
May 14, 2015
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I wrote:
AND HERE WE GO AGAIN!!! If the brain is ONLY an electrical circuit, even the most complex set of circuitry we’ll see for a long time, then it CANNOT be anything more than a physical embodiment of a universal Turing machine. And as we all know UTM’s cannot, even in principle, have intentions. UTM respond, and ONLY respond. They intend nothing. It is not nor will it ever be a matter of complexity of the computer in question.
to which eigenstate responded:
First, the brain/mind is not a UTM, and can’t be.
Correcting something that I did not write! I did not say it was a utm, but a physical embodiment of one. Based on eigenstate's own description of what a brain is, i.e. an electrical circuit, my description is not even controversial. He then mentions plasticity and reconnecting, but so what? the brain remains but a complex electrical circuit. Oh, and the fact that its "memory" (read "tape" for utms) is finite is but a further limitation, and yet only a distinction that makes no difference. I do note his cheery reference to strong AI; I won't pick on him here beyond filing it under well, how about science fantasy? I am certainly not confused about intentionality. eigenstate writes that his mac intends to do things . . .
. . .just my Mac, here — “intends” to find a qualified target — some string in my source code. I, as the programmer, intend to find the string, and do so by manipulating the machine such that it takes on this goal,
This is either a blatant example of smuggling, or an obvious example of losing track of the active and passive form of the verb "to intend". The mac intends nothing; it is superintended by you. I will offer you a couple ways out: 1) If, on materialism, a human brain is not a physical embodiment of a UTM, tell why. (Here, I believe you have a problem as you have already described it as a circuit, but that's just me.) or, 2) If, on materialism, a human brain is a physical embodiment of a utm, but utm's have intentions, explain how this could be. ( . . . a tough row to hoe, as all you have is a set of directions, a reader, and a tape, again that's just me.) or, 3) On materialism, we don't actually have intentions, but it's nice to think we do. (uuuuuhhhhh . . . you can have this one.)Tim
May 13, 2015
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eigenstate @ 100 "The brain’s neuronal array is very large in terms of the “bits” it can store (never mind for now that it’s not “bits-oriented” in how it stores information)" from http://www.quora.com/How-much-information-does-a-human-brain-neuron-store "Theories of connectionism and work on neural networks attempt to explain and model how complex behaviors and rules can be represented in networks of otherwise mostly identical units (in the case of the brain, neurons), but as yet there are no generally accepted theories of how a purely syntactic network (defined entirely by the connections between "meaningless" units) can encode semantic content (informations about meaning)." Neither you or I know how the brain works, stop bluffing. CheersCross
May 13, 2015
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Silver Asiatic,
If you replace every molecule in your brain with an identical molecule in the same place and “your self” still exists, then your conscious self cannot be the molecules. Because even though “identical” they are a different set of molecules than the original.
As I argued, I believe it's the pattern that's important to maintain the self. Molecules are required to maintain the pattern, but it doesn't need to be any particular set of molecules. If the molecules are replaced by identical molecules and the pattern is maintained, then the self is maintained. If the pattern is sufficiently disrupted, then the self is lost. This is different than with a ship or broom, where if every part is replaced - even with identical parts in the same configuration - we'd say it's a different ship or broom. With the "self", it's more analogous a computer program or a Word document in this regard. Move a Word doc from one part of the hard drive to another, or even to a different drive, and we'd say it's the same file.goodusername
May 13, 2015
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eigenstate:
@Mapou So knower and known are both opposites and the same?
I have no idea what “opposites” would mean in this context.
I know. You're lost in a lost world but you don't know it. You just know that you're right. See ya.Mapou
May 13, 2015
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bornagain77:
Carp, if you are going to defend the reductive materialist position that consciousness can ’emerge’ from a matter-energy basis, would it not behoove you to at least first prove that reductive materialism, instead of Theism, was true?
It's not a case of "instead of Theism". If it were true that there is a God who created the universe, this would in no way lead to the conclusion that biological life was designed immediately and as needed with hands-on guidance. God as described is certainly capable of designing an initial life-form that then evolved into us. The frustrating conclusion I derive from the ID side is that it's not possible. Understand that not all theists take their holy books as being literally true.Carpathian
May 13, 2015
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Are you saying that the memories are in the brain or that the brain is used as the interface to external immaterial memories?
Nobody knows the nature of memories yet, if someone tells you the opposite he is lying at you. My grandmother had Alzheimer, she didn't remember anything but when people that she loved visited her she smiled and she was peaceful, she knew without memories that these people are close to her heart. Are memories material? First of all matter doesn't exist, when you reduce matter you get probabilistic waves not subatomic particles, that fact makes the answer even more complicated. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C5pq7W5yRMJimFit
May 13, 2015
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Carp, if you are going to defend the reductive materialist position that consciousness can 'emerge' from a matter-energy basis, would it not behoove you to at least first prove that reductive materialism, instead of Theism, was true?
"[while a number of philosophical ideas] may be logically consistent with present quantum mechanics, ...materialism is not." Eugene Wigner Quantum Physics Debunks Materialism - video playlist https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL1mr9ZTZb3TViAqtowpvZy5PZpn-MoSK_&v=4C5pq7W5yRM Why Quantum Theory Does Not Support Materialism By Bruce L Gordon, Ph.D Excerpt: The underlying problem is this: there are correlations in nature that require a causal explanation but for which no physical explanation is in principle possible. Furthermore, the nonlocalizability of field quanta entails that these entities, whatever they are, fail the criterion of material individuality. So, paradoxically and ironically, the most fundamental constituents and relations of the material world cannot, in principle, be understood in terms of material substances. Since there must be some explanation for these things, the correct explanation will have to be one which is non-physical – and this is plainly incompatible with any and all varieties of materialism. http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbscience.aspx?pageid=8589952939 the argument for God from consciousness can now be framed like this: 1. Consciousness either preceded all of material reality or is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality. 2. If consciousness is a ‘epi-phenomena’ of material reality then consciousness will be found to have no special position within material reality. Whereas conversely, if consciousness precedes material reality then consciousness will be found to have a special position within material reality. 3. Consciousness is found to have a special, even central, position within material reality. 4. Therefore, consciousness is found to precede material reality. Four intersecting lines of experimental evidence from quantum mechanics that shows that consciousness precedes material reality (Wigner’s Quantum Symmetries, Wheeler’s Delayed Choice, Leggett’s Inequalities, Quantum Zeno effect) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uLcJUgLm1vwFyjwcbwuYP0bK6k8mXy-of990HudzduI/edit
bornagain77
May 13, 2015
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bornagain77, No problem. Understand though that I believe that the brain is the source of what we call mind and it's a position I'm trying to defend by at least getting some common understanding of what seems logical. In a nutshell, your side seems to be saying the brain is an interface and our side says it is the source. If we keep working on it we may at least get some common ground on what our positions really mean.Carpathian
May 13, 2015
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Well Carp, if you are sincere I am sorry for being short with you. It gets a bit old dealing with atheistic dogma after a while. I hope Jim helped. He answered better, more succinctly, than I could have anyway.bornagain77
May 13, 2015
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JimFit:
It doesn’t remove/delete the memories, it removes the access to these memories, that’s why some patients retrieve their memory.
Are you saying that the memories are in the brain or that the brain is used as the interface to external immaterial memories?Carpathian
May 13, 2015
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bornagain77:
read the paper Carp and stop imposing your materialistic dogma onto the evidence:
I have asked some very simple questions.Carpathian
May 13, 2015
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Carpathian
1) If I am wrong and memories are not stored in the brain but reside in the mind, why would brain damage remove memory?
It doesn't remove/delete the memories, it removes the access to these memories, that's why some patients retrieve their memory.
)If a person suddenly dies and memories are located in the brain, how does the mind retrieve them after death?
That doesn't make sense if you are talking about an afterlife with an Omniscience God which by definition knows everything. Lets say that in your hard disc you have a collection of stamps, the hard disc breaks down (dies) and you loose everything, you get a new hard disc which is connected to the internet and has access to a digital base that has every stamp that was ever published. You won't care anymore about your lost collection (your memories).JimFit
May 13, 2015
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read the paper Carp and stop imposing your materialistic dogma onto the evidence:
A Reply To Shermer - Lommel excerpt: There is also a theory that consciousness can be experienced independently from the normal body-linked waking consciousness. The current concept in medical science states that consciousness is the product of the brain. This concept, however, has never been scientifically proven. Research on NDE pushes us at the limits of our medical concepts of the range of human consciousness and the relationship between consciousness and memories with the brain. For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories inside the brain, so far without success. In connection with the hypothesis that consciousness and memories are stored inside the brain the question also arises how a non-material activity such as concentrated attention or thinking can correspond with a visible (material) reaction in the form of a measurable electrical, magnetic and chemical activity at a certain place in the brain. Different mental activities give rise to changing patterns of activity in different parts of the brain. This has been shown in neurophysiology through EEG, magneto-encephalogram (MEG) and at present also through magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and positron emission tomography (PET-scan). (9-11) Also an increase in cerebral blood flow is observed during such a non-material activity like thinking (12). It is also not well understood how it is to be explained that in a sensory experiment following a physical sensation the person involved in the test stated that he was aware (conscious) of the sensation a few thousands of a second following the stimulation, while the subject’s brain showed that neuronal adequacy wasn’t achieved until after a full 500 msec. following the sensation. This experiment has led to the so-called delay-and-antedating hypothesis (13). Most body cells, and especially all neurons, show an electrical potential across cell membranes, formed by the presence of a metabolic Na/K pump. Transportation of information along neurons happens by means of action potentials, differences in membrane potential caused by synaptic depolarisation (excitatory) and hyperpolarisation (inhibitory). The sum total of changes along neurons causes transient electric fields, and therefore also transient magnetic fields, along the synchronously activated dendrites. Not the number of neurons, the precise shape of the dendrites (dendritic tree), nor the accurate position of synapses, neither the firing of individual neurons is crucial, but the derivative, the fleeting electric and/or magnetic fields generated along the dendrites. These should be shaped as optimally as possible into short-lasting meaningful patterns, constantly changing in four-dimensional shape and intensity (self-organization), and constantly mutually interacting between all neurons. This process can be considered as a biological quantum coherence phenomenon. The influence of external localized magnetic and electric fields on these constant changing electric and/or magnetic fields during normal function of the brain should now be mentioned. Neurophysiological research is being performed using transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), in the course of which a localized magnetic field (photons) is produced. TMS can excite or inhibit different parts of the brain, depending of the amount of energy given, allowing functional mapping of cortical regions, and creation of transient functional lesions. It allows assessing the function in focal brain regions on a millisecond scale, and it can study the contribution of cortical networks to specific cognitive functions. TMS is a non-invasive research tool to study aspects of human brain physiology including motor function, vision, language, and the pathophysiology of brain disorders as well as mood disorders like depression, and it even may be useful for therapy. In studies TMS can interfere with visual and motion perception, it gives an interruption of cortical processing with an interval of 80-100 milliseconds. Intracortical inhibition and facilitation are obtained by paired-pulse studies with TMS, and reflect the activity of interneurons in the cortex. Also TMS can alter the functioning of the brain beyond the time of stimulation, but it does not appear to leave any lasting effect. (14). Interrupting the electrical fields of local neuronal networks in parts of the cortex also disturbs the normal function of the brain, because by localized electrical stimulation of the temporal and parietal lobe during surgery for epilepsy the neurosurgeon and Nobel prize winner W. Penfield could sometimes induce flashes of recollection of the past (never a complete life review), experiences of light, sound or music, and rarely a kind of out-of-body experience. These experiences did not produce any transformation.(15-16) After many years of research he finally reached the conclusion that it is not possible to localize memories inside the brain. Olaf Blanke also recently described in Nature a patient with induced OBE by inhibition of cortical activity caused by more intense external electrical stimulation of the gyrus angularis in a patient with epilepsy (17). The effect of the external magnetic or electrical stimulation is dependent of the amount of energy given. There may be no clinical effect or sometimes stimulation is seen when only a small amount of energy is given, for instance during stimulation of the motoric cortex. But during “stimulation” with higher energy inhibition of local cortical functions occurs by extinction of the electrical and magnetic fields resulting in inhibition of local neuronal networks (personal communication Blanke). Also in the patient described by Blanke in Nature stimulation with higher electric energy was given, resulting in inhibition of the function of the local neuronal networks in the gyrus angularis. And when for instance the occipital visual cortex is stimulated by TMS, this results not in a better sight, but instead it causes temporary blindness by inhibition of this part of the cortex. We have to conclude that localized artificial stimulation with real photons (electrical or magnetic energy) disturb and also inhibit the constant changing electrical and magnetic fields of our neuronal networks, and so influence and inhibit the normal function of our brain. In trying to understand this concept of mutual interaction between the “invisible and not measurable” consciousness, with its enormous amount of information, and our visible, material body it seems wise to compare it with modern worldwide communication. There is a continuous exchange of objective information by means of electromagnetic fields (real photons) for radio, TV, mobile telephone, or laptop computer. We are unaware of the innumerable amounts of electromagnetic fields that constantly, day and night, exist around us and through us as well as through structures like walls and buildings. We only become aware of these electromagnetic informational fields the moment we use our mobile telephone or by switching on our radio, TV or laptop. What we receive is not inside the instrument, nor in the components, but thanks to the receiver the information from the electromagnetic fields becomes observable to our senses and hence perception occurs in our consciousness. The voice we hear in our telephone is not inside the telephone. The concert we hear in our radio is transmitted to our radio. The images and music we hear and see on TV is transmitted to our TV set. The internet is not located inside our laptop. We can receive at about the same time what is transmitted with the speed of light from a distance of some hundreds or thousands of miles. And if we switch off the TV set, the reception disappears, but the transmission continues. The information transmitted remains present within the electromagnetic fields. The connection has been interrupted, but it has not vanished and can still be received elsewhere by using another TV set. Again, we do not realize us the thousands of telephone calls, the hundreds of radio and TV transmissions, as well as the internet, coded as electromagnetic fields, that exist around us and through us. Could our brain be compared with the TV set that electromagnetic waves (photons) receives and transforms into image and sound, as well as with the TV camera that image and sound transforms into electromagnetic waves (photons)? This electromagnetic radiation holds the essence of all information, but is only conceivable to our senses by suited instruments like camera and TV set. The informational fields of our consciousness and of our memories, both evaluating by our experiences and by the informational imput from our sense organs during our lifetime, are present around us as electrical and/or magnetic fields [possible virtual photons? (18)], and these fields only become available to our waking consciousness through our functioning brain and other cells of our body. So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. etc.. etc..,,, http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm
bornagain77
May 13, 2015
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bornagain77, This does not explain why memories are stored in the brain and not in the mind since it is the mind that uses them. 1) If I am wrong and memories are not stored in the brain but reside in the mind, why would brain damage remove memory? 2)If a person suddenly dies and memories are located in the brain, how does the mind retrieve them after death?Carpathian
May 13, 2015
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Carp, the material body is noticeably impaired with hemispherectomy, while the whole 'person' stays intact. That is not, contrary to your blinder view of the evidence, NOT expected on materialistic premises. As to your specific questions, I suggest looking up Dr. Pim van Lommel's research on the subject. I believe he addresses all those points 'scientifically': Nonlocal Consciousness: An Explanatory Model for the Near-Death Experience - Pim van Lommel, M.D. - video http://www.btci.org/consciousness/archive/2012/videos2012/vid1.html also see Lommel's paper 'A reply to Shermer' http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htmbornagain77
May 13, 2015
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bornagain77:
The point you missed is that the whole person stays intact even though an entire hemisphere was removed.
I expect the person to be virtually the same. If I remove an organ that has a duplicate, such as a lung or kidney, I expect the person to not change too much and we see that. We also see that with a hemisphere but don't see the same effect if we remove equal parts on both side.
Although it is blatantly obvious if you removed both frontal lobes, and thus severely compromised the ability of consciousness to be received in the brain, that would cause severe impairment.
If we "receive" consciousness in the brain, are our memories also external to the brain? If the memories are external, why do we permanently lose memories due to brain damage? If memories are internal, how does the mind/soul retrieve them from the brain when the brain dies? If the memories are immaterial as the brain is, why do we need to store them in the brain at all?Carpathian
May 13, 2015
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@wallstreeter43
Actually Eigenstate , you are the one that failed here as every nde researcher disagrees with you as the evidence itself says that the mind is not caused by the brain. How do they know ? Well because some Nde’s are happening during a time when the brain is non functional .
I'm no expert on NDEs, but am aware that there's a lot of fast and loose terminology used around "brain dead" and "non-functional" and "shut down". A patient in a near death or dying crisis maybe unconscious or unresponsive, this does not mean the brain is not functioning. It's a bit off topic, but I'd be interested in a link or two if you have such handy that discussed cases where the brain had ceased all electrical activity and yet we observed NDE experiences to be happening at that time. One problem I do remember reading about was the "self-reporting" problem. Patients may vividly recall their exeriences (and I don't doubt they do experience something, whether a pure hallucination or no), and place their experiences in a timeline, but they aren't able to connect those experiences to that timeline just as a matter or recounting the experience.
Veridical Nde’s are also happening . How can a person see without their eyes and also a very damaged or non functional ?
That seems a major problem for the claim, doesn't it? Like Uri Geller bending spoons, it appears more likely that the "veridicality" does not obtain than that is some discovery of a major violation of physical law. But
Eigenstate you simply aren’t up to date with all the information. It is you that has failed sir
I thought the study this article discusses was interesting: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130814-near-death-brain-life-after-death-bright-light/ The subject of the study was mice, and not humans (for obvious ethical reasons if you read the methods of the experiment), but the findings of a burst of activity in the 30 seconds of cardiac arrest suggest a view that identifies these experiences as hallucinations. There's nothing conclusive about the study, but as opposed to a competing hypothesis that says that perception and vision are not constrained by physical laws and processes, this strikes me as a much more likely path toward an eventually solid answer than... "spooky stuff".eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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E’s argument: concepts don’t exist, just brain states representing concepts. Some part of your brain is tricked into thinking those other parts of your brain are concepts. Translation: one configuration of matter is “tricking” another configuration of matter.
Neuroscience doesn't support the intuition that we "think in English" (in the case of native English speakers) or that our internal thoughts are managed in "syntactical language" formats. I don't know how prevalent that intuition is, but it certainly is one I've had, that I seem to be having an "inner discussion" in English. I do imagine things I might say out loud, and in those cases, my idea gets rendered into English, even if I don't actually say anything out loud. But the idea that my internal concept structures are like some spoken or written discourse is not at all borne out by the evidence we have. So in that sense, we may realize that "concepts don't exist in the way we often intuit they do". But this just speaks to the intuitions we have about our thinking, and doesn't deny the reality or efficacy of brain activity patterns that do correspond to "concepts" and "conceptual thinking".
The problem is that it’s a regress. A configuration of matter can’t be tricked, only a mind can be tricked.
That's problematic as you've expressed it. If mind is a particular configuration of matter, and this is the position of the materialist, then indeed "matter can be tricked", where that matter occurs in the form of a mind.
So you are left trying to explain mind arising from brain by presupposing that a subset of the brain itself is a mind. You then have to recursively explain that all the way down to the level of chemistry. Good luck!
Mind doesn't arise from brain, brain does not "give rise" to mind, as another common usage puts it. The brain is the mind, in the same sense that the "walking" is the body. The body doesn't "give rise" to walking -- that attaches the semantics of a discrete entity apart from the body to "walking". Walking is not a "thing" in that sense, it's a description of the activity of a body. Mind does not "arise" from the brain -- that commits to the same misconception. "Mind" is a description of the activity of the brain, as opposed to being a "thing" apart from the brain, "generated" by the brain. There's no presupposing, here. If I am to presuppose, my intuitions often suggest to me that I am an disembodied, immaterial mind, floating in the ether, but somehow integrally attached to my brain and body. That would be my starting point. My view, based on the evidence and knowledge available, is an after-the-facts conclusion that these intuitions and presuppositions are mistaken, and that while I can't "feel myself think" in the way I might feel my fingers touching the keyboard, my consciousness is the direct experience of the neural activity of my brain. If this were a matter of just going with presuppositions, I'd be taking positions much close to Barry's reflexive pronouncements. Instead, this is a case of thinking and evaluation succeeding in supplanting my own intuitions as the best explanation for what is happening when I think, what consciousness is as real phenomenon. ETA: blockquotes, as per usualeigenstate
May 13, 2015
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@Mapou
So knower and known are both opposites and the same?
I have no idea what "opposites" would mean in this context. In this example, the subject and the object were the same -- me. This is self-reference, or introspection. To read your reaction, you seem to have some problem with the concept or reality of self-reference?
That makes sense to you?
Well, how would you identify the knower and knower for the example I gave? Who is the knower and who/what is the known in that case? Not only does my answer seem trivially sensible, I can't think of alternative answers for knower and known that *do* make sense. Who would the knower be in that case but "me"? Who/what would be the known, other than my internal state or my sensations? And you people think you have a leg to stand on? You are all pathetic ignoramuses in the very subjects that you pretend to know so much about. How would you identifier knower and known for apprehending the state of one's "feeling hunger"?eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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@Tim,
AND HERE WE GO AGAIN!!! If the brain is ONLY an electrical circuit, even the most complex set of circuitry we’ll see for a long time, then it CANNOT be anything more than a physical embodiment of a universal Turing machine. And as we all know UTM’s cannot, even in principle, have intentions. UTM respond, and ONLY respond. They intend nothing. It is not nor will it ever be a matter of complexity of the computer in question.
First, the brain/mind is not a UTM, and can't be. A UTM is an idealization, with one of its requirements being "infinite external storage". The brain's neuronal array is very large in terms of the "bits" it can store (never mind for now that it's not "bits-oriented" in how it stores information), but like your computer, it has a finite capacity for storage. Also, a UTM requires a language with an interpreter sufficient for self-reference: able to rewrite its own programs. Brains have something analogous, I'd say, in their neuroplasticity and re-connective capacities, but a UTM is a formal specification that a brain doesn't conform to. Not sure that's a problem for your basic point or mine, but the brain is not and cannot be a UTM. More importantly, though, it is not true that "we all know UTM’s cannot, even in principle, have intentions". The strong AI thesis hold exactly that. Strong AI may never be realized (or perhaps it will be), but either way, there are a great many what do not "know" or accept that as a limitation, and hold that intentionality (remember that "intend" and "Intentionality" here are not the same concept) is in principle practical for computing machinery (to cite just one feature commonly held as "human only"). You seem to be confusing "intend" and "intentionality" again, but if we are talking about intentions, the pursuit of a goal, I don't think that's a difficult challenge at all. A search algorithm running on my computer -- never mind strong AI, just my Mac, here -- "intends" to find a qualified target -- some string in my source code. I, as the programmer, intend to find the string, and do so by manipulating the machine such that it takes on this goal, and actively seeks the target string I've provided. Under a strong AI model, the intentions are much more human like. Rather than just be a "slave machine" that intends on targets given it, it would also have higher level processes that sort through high level goals and options, and chooses targets as its high-level intentions like a human does.
All the sound and fury concerning the effect of brain on mind (see numerous posts on brain injury) as well as the curious definition of mind as not more than an activity analogous to walking is smoke and mirrors. In the first case, nobody denies that losing brain function will effect the mind any more than I might argue that eating a plate of cookies (with milk!) might change my attitude and thus change who I am.
Many dualists/immaterialists do not deny such, but also do not recognize or address the implications of that. Why would structural damage to parts of brain result in temper control problems if my "free will" and agency are immaterial, a spiritual self that supervenes on the matter of the brain?
In the second case, calling the “I” which we all call ourselves nothing more than activity, simply secretes the materialist denial of the “person” into a “doing” (we often notice that doing is accompanied by persons, so it seems a logical connection, but it is not. It is a leap that makes no sense upon reflection. After all, I neither cease nor become myself by walking, so how can it be by the activities of the mind, unless only on strictly materialist understanding? Impossible.)
Walking isn't consciousness, of course. The isomorphism in that analogy was between a high-level description of patterns of activity, where both walking and thinking are natural processes (constituted by physical stuff, atoms, etc.). So I wasn't suggesting that walking instantiated one's consciousness or anything like that. Rather, "consciousness" is a label we assign to the active functioning of the brain. The brain doesn't "create consciousness", or "create the self" -- that kind of formulation slips into dualist modes of thinking, of a dichotomy between brain activity and mind. The activity of the brain *is* consciousness, and the self *is* the active of the brain. Walking is a much more mundane activity, I'll readily grant, but the analogy was apt for the connection I was making -- "molecules in motion" takes on different meaning for different kinds of high-level structures and patterns of organization.eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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M @ 98:
Don’t bother replying, dude. I’m no longer interested in your views.
I suspect you will get a reply nevertheless. E wants you to know -- insists on you knowing -- that the only reason why you don't accept his incoherent spewings is because you are too stupid or lazy to understand why he is so much smarter than you.Barry Arrington
May 13, 2015
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eigenstate:
So I am the knower, and I am the known.
So knower and known are both opposites and the same? That makes sense to you? And you people think you have a leg to stand on? You are all pathetic ignoramuses in the very subjects that you pretend to know so much about. PS. Don't bother replying, dude. I'm no longer interested in your views.Mapou
May 13, 2015
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@Mapou
1. Do you agree that ‘to know something’ requires two opposite and complementary entities: a knower and a known?
Yes, but only as a matter of tautology. That is how we define "to know".
2. If the answer is yes, please identify/define knower and known.
I know that I'm hungry at the moment. So I am the knower, and I am the known. I know something about myself regarding a physical urge to eat that I can sense. I know that I am experiencing "the sensation of hunger". 3. If the answer to #1 is no, please explain your position. eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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@ppolish,
Is consciousness energy or matter? Neither?
It's a form of computation, a complex form of computation. Is computation, whether in a very simple circuit, or as a the product of an enormous set of interactions of the nodes of neural network energy or matter? The answer would be that it includes both matter and energy. The brain is an energy-hungry machine. It generates a lot of waste heat, and requires lots of calories on a sustained basis to keep it functioning. So consciousness, as a function of the brain, is an energy-consuming process. Given the brain's physical structure, it subsists as a configuration of matter -- atoms, or fermions and bosons, if you want to really go all reductionist.
“Energy is not matter, so by definition it is not material. Energy can be converted to matter, and matter to energy. The conversion factor is the square of the speed of light.
That's not how "material" is used with respect to "materialism". Think about everything implicated by STEM as identified by physics -- space, time, energy, matter. Gravitional fields are not "matter", but are an integral part of STEM.
The ‘true nature of energy’ defies simple explanation. Thermodynamics says that the amount of energy in a closed system is conserved. Picture a hydrogen atom with its electron orbiting at a higher energy level (quantum number). The energy of this system is best represented by the potential energy of the electron in the electric field surrounding the proton in the nucleus, plus the kinetic energy of the electon’s orbital motion. Quantum mechanics tells us that electron can’t just decay into a slightly lower orbit like a satellite orbiting earth. Instead, it can only drop into an orbit at the next lower quantum number. That means the length of the electron orbit decreases by exactly one wavelength of the electron’s wavefunction. The electron then has less potential energy and less kinetic energy. The only way for this orbit change to happen is for the atom to emit a photon whose energy is exactly the difference between the energies of the two orbits. Do you call this photon energy or do you call it matter? A scientist who is careful with his words probably won’t call it either. It is a ‘particle’ which mediates the electromagnetic force. It has some properties of a particle and some properties of a wave. It has no rest mass and always travels at the speed of light. If it’s moving, it’s moving at the speed of light. If it’s not moving, it doesn’t exist. A photon can be thought of as a quantum or a packet of energy. We don’t speak of energy as governing the way material things interact. We think in terms of forces. Physical chemistry is the study of properties and interactions of atoms based on the structure of the atoms themselves. As two hydrogen atoms approach, they begin to repel because of the electrostatic repulsion between the two protons. However, once the electrons begin orbiting both nucleii instead of just one, the complete assembly has a lower total energy than the two independent atoms. This is why the H2 molecule forms. As you study physics, matter, and energy, keep your question in mind. You gradually gain a better understanding of how they work. As you do, you realize more and more that we really don’t know what matter and energy are.”
OK, not sure where this attaches to anything I've said here, but see above on "materialism" and STEM. Particle/wave duality, electromagnetic fields, thermodynamics, it's all "material" on "materialism".eigenstate
May 13, 2015
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goodusername
Replace every molecule in my brain with an identical molecule in the same position and I believe I would still exist.
But as you mention, CharlieM's reference was to Theseus’s ship. So, it's not a question whether you survive, but whether "your self" exists. If you replace every molecule in your brain with an identical molecule in the same place and "your self" still exists, then your conscious self cannot be the molecules. Because even though "identical" they are a different set of molecules than the original.Silver Asiatic
May 13, 2015
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Good username said in 61 ""In fact, you probably believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that a human body with consciousness could be deconstructed, and then reconstructed, over and over again, and that consciousness and mind would be attained – every time – that the body is reconstructed, and yet, you still believe that consciousness/mind are not the result of that configuration… but of… something else?"" The same analogy could equally be applied to a Television. Reconstruct a TV set ,take it apart and put it back again and it will still broadcast the same tv stations .in fact most of the nde evidence is pointing towards the brain being the receiver for consciousness and you will be hard pressed to find one that doesnt. Nde point powerfully beyond the mind equals brain belief if materialists .wallstreeter43
May 13, 2015
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Eigenstate says ""“The brain and the mind are connected”. This represents a category error. The mind is the brain, “mind” just being a handy term to focus on the *activity* of the brain, and “brain” useful in pointing at the structural aspects of the brain. Brain and mind are not “connected” as distinct entities. They are only connected in the sense that “walking” is an activity of the body. “Walking” is not a distinct entity apart from body, but rather a high level description of a body in action. “Mind” is not a distinct entity apart from the brain, but rather a high level description of brain activity. Fail on the first step, Barry."" Actually Eigenstate , you are the one that failed here as every nde researcher disagrees with you as the evidence itself says that the mind is not caused by the brain. How do they know ? Well because some Nde's are happening during a time when the brain is non functional . Veridical Nde's are also happening . How can a person see without their eyes and also a very damaged or non functional ? Eigenstate you simply aren't up to date with all the information. It is you that has failed sirwallstreeter43
May 13, 2015
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CharlieM,
The self is not the material body. The self persists but the material of the body is constantly changing.
Replace every molecule in my brain with an identical molecule in the same position and I believe I would still exist. But open my skull and stir my brain with a spoon and I believe I would cease to exist. In the first example, all the matter has been replaced. In the second, all the same matter remains. So why is the second lethal and not the first? Because it's the pattern of matter, i.e. information, that's important to our identity. So we might be in agreement.
For those who are aquainted with the UK comedy, ‘Only Fools and Horses’ the materialists here are in a similar position to Trigger, the road sweeper. He was given an award from the council for looking after his broom over the years. The fact that it had been given several new heads and several new handles was lost on him. He still believed that he was holding the same broom that he always held.
I'm not familiar with the show, but that's an interesting reference to Theseus's ship.goodusername
May 12, 2015
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