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On Being Slimed by Nick Matzke

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After interacting with Nick Matzke on several different topics over the last few days, I feel like I know how Peter Venkman felt here (starting at 0:40). 

Let me explain: 

1.  In this post Matzke accused of me of being “incompetent or dishonest” and “ignorantly, uncomprehendingly” quote mining Niles Eldredge for the proposition that “change in the manner Darwin expected is just not found in the fossil record.”   

I proceeded to show that I quoted Eldredge accurately and in context exactly for the proposition I was advancing and requested Matzke to apologize for his boorish accusations.  Instead of doing the right thing, Nick went into full Darwinist spin mode.  He evaded and tried to change the subject.  He never owned up to, much less apologized for, his false accusation. 

2.  In this post I quoted Matzke himself for the proposition that “phylogenetic methods as they exist now can only rigorously detect sister-group relationships, not direct ancestry.” 

I then noted David Berlinski had shown as a matter of pure logic that calling species “sisters” is meaningless if cladistic analysis cannot show they were related through a common ancestor.  Therefore, according to Berlinski, “to the extent that the theory of evolution relies on phylogenetic systematics, the disciplines resemble two biologists dropped from a great height and clutching at one another in mid-air.  Tight fit, major fail.” 

Almost immediately Nick jumped in with one of his famous literature bluffs and asked why Berlinski had failed to refute the papers he cited.  I responded by pointing out to Nick that he did not seem to understand the argument Berlinski was making that followed logically from Matzke’s own statement, which was this: 

Major Premise: In order to support common descent, a method of investigation would need to be capable of detecting direct ancestry. 

Minor Premise: The minor premise is Nick’s own assertion:  “Phylogenetic methods as they exist now can only rigorously detect sister-group relationships, not direct ancestry.”  

Conclusion: Phylogenetic methods as they exist now do not support common descent in any rigorous way.  

Then I asked Nick this question:  “Do any of those papers purport to suspend the basic laws of logic? If so, please give me a summary of how they do that.” 

Once again, Matzke went into full Darwinist spin mode.  He tried to change the subject and, tellingly, said that he would refuse to respond further unless I engaged with him on the new subject instead of the one posed in the OP. 

3.  Finally, in this post I took TSK and antievolution.org to task for their false accusation that I had fabricated the Eldredge quote discussed above.  Of course I did not fabricate the quote as even they were later forced to admit. 

Incredibly, Matzke gratuitously jumped in and tried to defend their antics.  So I asked Nick this question:  If, as you say, what was done to me was OK, does that mean it is OK for me to go around the Internet doing it to you?  If the answer is “yes” I will proceed to do so.  If the answer is “no” then why the hell are you trying to defend it boy? 

I asked a form of this question for the first time on Friday evening and I have asked it again and again since then.  Since Friday evening Nick has posted eight more comments in the combox, but he has steadfastly refused to answer my simple question.  Once again, he has gone into full Darwinist spin mode and tried to change the subject. 

In summary, on three separate occasions in the last several days I have beaten Matzke like a rented mule.  And each time Nick has responded by trying to be slippery, but instead of slippery he has come off as merely slimy. 

Why do I highlight Matzke’s antics?  For this reason.  Nick takes great delight in lording his expertise in the nuts and bolts of biology over the rest of us, and I will be the first to admit that Nick’s expertise in that field far exceeds my lay understanding.  I am not a biologist.  I am, however, a lawyer, and when it comes to argument that has its advantages.  As Phillip Johnson has noted, a lawyer is trained to detect logical fallacies, bad arguments, empty rhetoric disguised as evidence and other “spin” tactics and expose them for what they are.

I can expose Matzke when he uses circular reasoning.  I can expose Matzke when he makes appeals to irrelevant authority (i.e., the “literature bluff,” perhaps Nick’s favorite tactic).  I can expose Matzke when he evades, spins, distracts and distorts.  

Why is it important to expose Matzke’s tactics on issues that are arguably beside the point with respect to the Darwinism/ID debate?  Because a leopard does not, we are reliably informed, change his spots.  And if Matzke engages in these tactics on these side issues, you can be sure he does so on the main issues as well.  

If Matzke is among the best and brightest on the other side, I am going to sleep well tonight.

Comments
I'm addicted to quote mining ....
“We are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus—full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin’s depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations.”
Jeffrey H. Schwartz, Sudden Origins, p.3, 1999.Box
December 21, 2013
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=> Querius, Interesting question. So what is the sex ratio?- because that will determine the next generation of species, but I am not sure what you are getting at. I have noticed a lot of questions seems to be addressed to specific individuals - may be there is some history that I have to check out in the UD archives :-)coldcoffee
December 19, 2013
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NickMatzke_UD finally responded
. . . and Querius’s badgering me about some poorly-specified science fiction scenario.
Yay! Professor Matzke has acknowledged my challenge to his imagination and his knowledge of evolution! While he accused my scenario of being "science fiction" and "poorly specified," this is still an important first step! Ok, the cleaned-up scenario is as follows: Some time in the future, a small blue planet that's identical to Earth---except devoid of any life---is ***seeded*** with a wide spectrum of human-designed organisms. The number of human-designed species is incredibly large due to the fact that college classes frequently design new species under the supervision of a qualified professor, such as professor Matzke, to observe and analyze the results. These species are left to adapt, migrate, or die. What would the result look like, after thousands, and then millions of years, and how would it differ from our own small blue planet? Professor Matzke, the floor is yours. -QQuerius
December 18, 2013
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Shader observed
You can’t take an old fossil and prove that it is related to anything else, prove that it’s transitional, or prove that it evolved from or into anything else. It is simply a fossil that may or may not look like another fossil. That’s not science. It’s guesswork.
Yes, very nicely stated as were your other observations. -QQuerius
December 18, 2013
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JLA, Similarity is similarity. It doesn't mean evolution is true, or false. "Why would this be if evolution wasn’t true?" There are plenty of reasons. Would you expect a designer to make every single creature completely different from the other ones? That's completely illogical.shader
December 18, 2013
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JLAfan2001 reveals his true hidden agenda:
Sorry to say but some of your writings are just out there. You should start your own religion called Mapouism cause it sure ain’t christianity.
And all this time I thought it was about the science. But now I see it has always been always about religion. Mapouism, eh? Hmm. I like that.Mapou
December 17, 2013
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Shader "Fossils have similarities to others because all animals have some level of similarities to other animals." Why would this be if evolution wasn't true? None of that other stuff can be scientifically tested. Darwin made a prediction and it passed with flying colors. Mapou Sorry to say but some of your writings are just out there. You should start your own religion called Mapouism cause it sure ain't christianity. Box Here is a comment from vjtorley from that OP you linked. "I don’t know if Archaeopteryx was ancestral to modern birds or not. But even if it was ‘secondarily flightless’, that wouldn’t account for the fact that like reptiles, it has 20 bones in its tail, compared with six for modern birds. I don’t know of any secondarily flightless modern bird which has regained those extra bones. As far as I know, they all have six. See this paper: From Fond to Fan: Archaeopteryx and the Evolution of Short-Tailed Birds by Stephen Gatesy and Kenneth Dial (Evolution 50(5), 1996, pp. 2037-2048 – see especially pp. 2046-2047)." Even though this fossil proved to be flightless, it still doesn't mean it wasn't transitional. Also, why would the designer cause things to devolve if the design is so intelligent? Ya got any articles that aren't from creationists cause I don't trust them?JLAfan2001
December 17, 2013
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Shader, JLAfan2001, Archaeopteryx, Icon of devolution not evolution. And here: "For one thing, birds are found earlier in the fossil record than the dinosaurs they are supposed to have descended from," Ruben said. "That's a pretty serious problem, and there are other inconsistencies with the bird-from-dinosaur theories.”Box
December 17, 2013
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JLAfan2001, Give it a rest, man. What is wrong with you? Why do you feel the need to act like a mindless jackass?
How do you explain simple to complex lifeforms from the lowest rocks on up in the geological column?
Intelligent design over time always go from the simple to the complex. This is why an iPad is orders of magnitude more complex than an Apple II. That is the explanation. If you don't like it, go jump up and down and foam at the mouth somewhere else.Mapou
December 17, 2013
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Fossils have similarities to others because all animals have some level of similarities to other animals. What would you expect to see if an intelligent designer created things? Take a look at cellphones, cars, clothes, houses, etc. Designed by different people, yet similarities abound all throughout these designed creations. Why would the physical world be any different? Do you really want to go down the "how do you explain" avenue, when there are literally hundreds of things I could list that you absolutely CANNOT explain? The fact that simple lifeforms are the oldest can easily be explained by design. DNA similarities in all lifeforms says nothing as to evolution or intelligent design. Would you expect a designer to use completely different DNA for all creatures? Why? How do YOU explain the sudden appearance of, say, hominid fossils when evolution is supposed to take millions of years? Oh you can't.shader
December 17, 2013
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Shader Mapou's insanity aside, how would you explain why these fossils have similarities to others? How would you explain that the gene sequences seem to line up with the fossil transitions in the right order? If common ancestry never happened, how would you explain the sudden appearance of, say, hominid fossils if they didn't evolve from the lower fossils? How do you explain simple to complex lifeforms from the lowest rocks on up in the geological column? How do you explain DNA similarities in all lifeforms? How do you explain ERV's and the chromosome 2 fusion? If "macro evolution" never happened then how do you explain all this? "God went poof" is not very scientific so don't try using that. Oh, that's right, evolution is not incompatible with ID. Nothing is.JLAfan2001
December 17, 2013
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Shader @36, You are correct. No fossil is transitional in the Darwinian sense. But it is transitional in the intelligent design sense. It was just one of the many designs that the intelligent designers decided either as unsatisfactory or experimental. Or maybe they just abandoned the old design in favor of a newer one. We see this sort of things happen all the time when human designers design classes of objects over time, e.g., in vehicles, computers, televisions, architectural design, software design, etc. The problem with the word "transitional" is that is has already been tainted by the brain-dead Darwinists. ID promoters need a word of their own to describe design evolution.Mapou
December 17, 2013
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The label "transitional fossil" is just a complete guess. Archaeopteryx is a fossil of an ancient creature. Proving that it evolved from or into another animal is impossible.shader
December 17, 2013
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Shader What leads you to believe that Archaeopteryx isn't a transitional fossil? Is it creationism? If I'm not mistaken, even UD's very own vjtorley believes it's transitional. He mentioned that the number of bones are similar to a lizard's tail and yet the skeleton resemble a bird.JLAfan2001
December 17, 2013
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"rampant, albeit gradual, change affecting all lineages through time" Nick, maybe I'm just really slow....but how on earth can you take the above quote and then say "Eldredge was talking about small transitions between very similar species". I honestly don't get it. The burden of proof is on you on this one. The man said what the man said. Personally, I think it's kind of silly to worry so much about what one man said in 1982, but if you are going to go there, and if you are going to make a claim such as the one you made above, you need to either post the evidence proving your claim or admit you were wrong.shader
December 17, 2013
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Nick, You can't take an old fossil and prove that it is related to anything else, prove that it's transitional, or prove that it evolved from or into anything else. It is simply a fossil that may or may not look like another fossil. That's not science. It's guesswork. I'm not saying you are wrong, just understand that Prothero can diagram and discuss fossils until the cows come home, but that doesn't make the fossils in question transitional. The sad thing is that I've followed the evolution/creation debates online for 15+ years and it's funny to me that Archaeopteryx is still used as evidence for evolution. That in itself is proof that there are just a paltry amount of fossils that can be described as transitional, which lends credence to the quote from Eldridge.shader
December 17, 2013
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shader, By all means read the threads. You will see that I quoted Eldredge in context and for the proposition that he was advancing. Nick has gone around the bend on this one. He insists I was quote mining because I used the quote to support a completely different proposition. This is risible. That he continues to insist on his narrative long after he has been shown conclusively to be wrong is more proof (if any more were necessary) of how slimy he is.Barry Arrington
December 17, 2013
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25 AndreDecember 16, 2013 at 2:13 pm Nick one point, what transitional fossils? I hope your not talking about Tiktaalik and Archaeopteryx because they are not the transitional’s you hope them to be. I just have to wonder are you honestly going to keep on bluffing yourself and I guess the last question is why do you keep fooling yourself?
You don't know what you're talking about. Read Prothero's book, "Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters." Archy, Tiktaalik, and hundreds of other transitional fossils are discussed and diagrammed. He also carefully explains what a transitional fossil is.NickMatzke_UD
December 17, 2013
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shader December 16, 2013 at 10:35 pm Well if yhe quote is there you pretty much have to take it at face value. How can you not?
Read the threads, that's what they are about. Eldredge was talking about small transitions between very similar species. The quote can't be used to argue that the fossil record fails to confirm common ancestry or stepwise evolution of large differences.NickMatzke_UD
December 17, 2013
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Well if yhe quote is there you pretty much have to take it at face value. How can you not?shader
December 16, 2013
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Everyone agrees the quote is from the book, but it's on page 48, not 45-46. It's the appropriateness of using it out of context that was being debated. I have the book BTW, but I'm not going to type out huge chunks of it.NickMatzke_UD
December 16, 2013
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Nick, I got some beautiful music (endless spam) for you: Angels We Have Heard On High - Pentatonix - A Capella https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAMzAIH12yc Merry Christmas dude!bornagain77
December 16, 2013
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Is it possible for someone to post the chapter of the book in question so this silly argument can end? This is 2013, how is it possible that we are arguing about whether the quote occurred? It did or it didn't.shader
December 16, 2013
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Nick one point, what transitional fossils? I hope your not talking about Tiktaalik and Archaeopteryx because they are not the transitional's you hope them to be. I just have to wonder are you honestly going to keep on bluffing yourself and I guess the last question is why do you keep fooling yourself?Andre
December 16, 2013
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In summary, on three separate occasions in the last several days I have beaten Matzke like a rented mule. And each time Nick has responded by trying to be slippery, but instead of slippery he has come off as merely slimy.
Note to world: don't rent mules to Barry Arrington.
Why do I highlight Matzke’s antics? For this reason. Nick takes great delight in lording his expertise in the nuts and bolts of biology over the rest of us, and I will be the first to admit that Nick’s expertise in that field far exceeds my lay understanding. I am not a biologist. I am, however, a lawyer, and when it comes to argument that has its advantages. As Phillip Johnson has noted, a lawyer is trained to detect logical fallacies, bad arguments, empty rhetoric disguised as evidence and other “spin” tactics and expose them for what they are.
Some of them are also trained to pound the table when they haven't got anything else to go on. That's what you are doing here. One other point, re: "changing the subject" -- I have been accused of this several times in these threads, when all I have done is bring in evidence about (a) the fossil record of transitional fossils and (b) Eldredge's views on the same. These are relevant for understanding what Eldredge was actually talking about in Barry's quote-mine of him. As for "changing the subject", that is just about the favorite activity of most of the commentators on UD! Just for starters, bornagain77's endless spamming on anything under the sun, and Querius's badgering me about some poorly-specified science fiction scenario. P.S.: Re: Tom Gilson's post at #16 -- oh yes, that was where he banned me from his blog for having the temerity to inject a little balance into his discussion of Seattle sex columnist Dan Savage speaking to a high-school journalism conference in Seattle, and the subsequent Breibart-website-inspired freakout about it. P.P.S: TSErik -- criticizing Breitbart.com does not make someone a "left-wing Marxist". Get a grip dude!NickMatzke_UD
December 16, 2013
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Incredibly, Matzke gratuitously jumped in and tried to defend their antics. So I asked Nick this question: If, as you say, what was done to me was OK, does that mean it is OK for me to go around the Internet doing it to you? If the answer is “yes” I will proceed to do so. If the answer is “no” then why the hell are you trying to defend it boy? I asked a form of this question for the first time on Friday evening and I have asked it again and again since then. Since Friday evening Nick has posted eight more comments in the combox, but he has steadfastly refused to answer my simple question. Once again, he has gone into full Darwinist spin mode and tried to change the subject.
If, on any issue, I copied a quote from some propagandist website's collection of quotes, and I did so without checking the original source, and the quote's reference was wrong in two ways (the title and the page number), and then I used the quote to argue something that the original quote didn't mean -- and you did all of these things -- then, yes, it would be highly appropriate for someone to make the charge of quote-mining (in the usual sense, not in RationalWiki's particularly extreme definition). And, until the actual true reference is found, it is also appropriate to raise the question of whether or not the quote was fabricated. Which is different than saying you personally fabricated it, not that you seem to care about careful distinctions.NickMatzke_UD
December 16, 2013
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3. Finally, in this post I took TSK and antievolution.org to task for their false accusation that I had fabricated the Eldredge quote discussed above. Of course I did not fabricate the quote as even they were later forced to admit.
By "later", you apparently mean "in the very same post, a few sentences later." Also, even if that post had contained a clear accusation of quote fabrication, which it didn't, "the quote was fabricated" is different than "Barry fabricated the quote." Just because you can't make careful distinctions, doesn't mean the rest of us have to bow down to your routine blurring of meanings.NickMatzke_UD
December 16, 2013
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2. In this post I quoted Matzke himself for the proposition that “phylogenetic methods as they exist now can only rigorously detect sister-group relationships, not direct ancestry.” I then noted David Berlinski had shown as a matter of pure logic that calling species “sisters” is meaningless if cladistic analysis cannot show they were related through a common ancestor. Therefore, according to Berlinski, “to the extent that the theory of evolution relies on phylogenetic systematics, the disciplines resemble two biologists dropped from a great height and clutching at one another in mid-air. Tight fit, major fail.” Almost immediately Nick jumped in with one of his famous literature bluffs and asked why Berlinski had failed to refute the papers he cited. I responded by pointing out to Nick that he did not seem to understand the argument Berlinski was making that followed logically from Matzke’s own statement, which was this: Major Premise: In order to support common descent, a method of investigation would need to be capable of detecting direct ancestry. Minor Premise: The minor premise is Nick’s own assertion: “Phylogenetic methods as they exist now can only rigorously detect sister-group relationships, not direct ancestry.” Conclusion: Phylogenetic methods as they exist now do not support common descent in any rigorous way. Then I asked Nick this question: “Do any of those papers purport to suspend the basic laws of logic? If so, please give me a summary of how they do that.” Once again, Matzke went into full Darwinist spin mode. He tried to change the subject and, tellingly, said that he would refuse to respond further unless I engaged with him on the new subject instead of the one posed in the OP.
Detecting statistically significant support for common ancestry -- a family tree -- is different than determining that a particular fossil is a direct ancestor.* The former question is easier to resolve, is much more important, and is what most of the methods do. You don't need to be able to determine direct ancestors to test common ancestry. This can be seen in all kinds of ways, e.g.: 1. DNA testing has the same issue. The Y-chromosome in the black relatives of Thomas Jefferson -- did it come from Jefferson or a male relative? Relationship is clear even if direct ancestry is not. 2. Phylogenetic methods are actually mostly used just on DNA of living organisms. They are all modern, living right now, so none are direct ancestors to each other. Yet the methods work nonetheless. Yes, the methods themselves have been tested in numerous ways; google Theobald's common ancestry article. Heck, I bet even David Berlinski accepts common ancestry and accepts this evidence for it. Refusing to acknowledge careful distinctions like this is part of why you won't get taken seriously by anyone who does know about these distinctions. It's not logical to run roughshod over careful distinctions. (* What "direct ancestry" even means becomes a complex question when you actually think carefully about it. Is the 5,000-year old ice-man "Otzi", discovered in a glacier in the Alps, a "direct ancestor" of modern humans? In the sense of being a member of the ancestral population, yes. In the sense of being the actual great-great...grandparent of someone living today, calculations indicate that it is extremely unlikely.)NickMatzke_UD
December 16, 2013
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Barry seems to think if he keeps posting on this he will eventually change reality to match his views, through sheer repetition.
1. In this post Matzke accused of me of being “incompetent or dishonest” and “ignorantly, uncomprehendingly” quote mining Niles Eldredge for the proposition that “change in the manner Darwin expected is just not found in the fossil record.” I proceeded to show that I quoted Eldredge accurately and in context exactly for the proposition I was advancing and requested Matzke to apologize for his boorish accusations. Instead of doing the right thing, Nick went into full Darwinist spin mode. He evaded and tried to change the subject. He never owned up to, much less apologized for, his false accusation.
No, you've been taking the Eldredge quote out of context from the beginning of this episode, up until right now. You first raised it to me in the context of transitional fossils between the Cambrian phyla. You refuse to affirm that Eldredge was talking about transitions between very similar species, and instead just keep repeating the quote, sans this crucial context. This is, well, quote-mining.NickMatzke_UD
December 16, 2013
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Yet another Barry thread on this? Wow. Long ago I addressed all of the basic issues surrounding the Eldredge quote and Barry's misuse of it, in a post that Barry banned from UD. What's the problem, afraid of informed review of your claims, Barry? http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/?p=3612&cpage=1#comment-35015 There is not much point in re-typing it all yet again.NickMatzke_UD
December 16, 2013
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