Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Oh, you mean, there really is a bias in academe against common sense and rational thought?

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Jonathan Haidt decided, for some reason, to point out the obvious to a group of American academics recently, that they are overwhelmingly modern materialist statists (liberals).

He polled his audience at the San Antonio Convention Center, starting by asking how many considered themselves politically liberal. A sea of hands appeared, and Dr. Haidt estimated that liberals made up 80 percent of the 1,000 psychologists in the ballroom. When he asked for centrists and libertarians, he spotted fewer than three dozen hands. And then, when he asked for conservatives, he counted a grand total of three.

“This is a statistically impossible lack of diversity,” Dr. Haidt concluded, noting polls showing that 40 percent of Americans are conservative and 20 percent are liberal. In his speech and in an interview, Dr. Haidt argued that social psychologists are a “tribal-moral community” united by “sacred values” that hinder research and damage their credibility — and blind them to the hostile climate they’ve created for non-liberals.

Why anyone would bother pointing that out, I don’t know. It’s not a bias against conservatives, anyway; it’s a bias against rationality, which they don’t believe in. Our brains, remember, are shaped for fitness, not for truth. Indeed, these are the very people who channel Barney Rubble and Fred Flintstone for insights into human psychology, and anyone who doubts the validity of such “research” should just shut up and pay their taxes, right?

Well, his talk had attracted  John Tierney’s attention at the New York Times (February 7, 2007), who drew exactly the right conclusion (for modern statists and Darwinists):

“If a group circles around sacred values, they will evolve into a tribal-moral community,” he said. “They’ll embrace science whenever it supports their sacred values, but they’ll ditch it or distort it as soon as it threatens a sacred value.” It’s easy for social scientists to observe this process in other communities, like the fundamentalist Christians who embrace “intelligent design” while rejecting Darwinism.

[ … ]

For a tribal-moral community, the social psychologists in Dr. Haidt’s audience seemed refreshingly receptive to his argument. Some said he overstated how liberal the field is, but many agreed it should welcome more ideological diversity. A few even endorsed his call for a new affirmative-action goal: a membership that’s 10 percent conservative by 2020. The society’s executive committee didn’t endorse Dr. Haidt’s numerical goal, but it did vote to put a statement on the group’s home page welcoming psychologists with “diverse perspectives.” It also made a change on the “Diversity Initiatives” page — a two-letter correction of what it called a grammatical glitch, although others might see it as more of a Freudian slip.

I have friends here in Canada who make bets on when the Times will finally, mercifully shut down.

Meanwhile, Megan McArdle weighs in at Atlantic Monthly, driving home the shame:

It is just my impression, but I think what conservatives want most of all is simply recognition that they are being shut out. It is a double indignity to be discriminated against, and then be told unctuously that your group’s underrepresentation is proof that almost none of you are as good as “us”. Haidt notes that his correspondence with conservative students (anonymously) “reminded him of closeted gay students in the 1980s”:

He quoted — anonymously — from their e-mails describing how they hid their feelings when colleagues made political small talk and jokes predicated on the assumption that everyone was a liberal. “I consider myself very middle-of-the-road politically: a social liberal but fiscal conservative. Nonetheless, I avoid the topic of politics around work,” one student wrote. “Given what I’ve read of the literature, I am certain any research I conducted in political psychology would provide contrary findings and, therefore, go unpublished. Although I think I could make a substantial contribution to the knowledge base, and would be excited to do so, I will not.”
Beyond that, mostly they would like academics to be conscious of the bias, and try to counter it where possible. As the quote above suggests, this isn’t just for the benefit of conservatives, either.

All together now, class, spell W-I-M-P.

Someone else writes

I have a good friend–I won’t name out him here though–who is a tenured faculty member in a premier humanities department at a leading east coast university, and he’s . . . a conservative! How did he slip by the PC police? Simple: he kept his head down in graduate school and as a junior faculty member, practicing self-censorship and publishing boring journal articles that said little or nothing. When he finally got tenure review, he told his closest friend on the faculty, sotto voce, that “Actually I’m a Republican.” His faculty friend, similarly sotto voce, said, “Really? I’m a Republican, too!”

That’s the scandalous state of things in American universities today. Here and there–Hillsdale College, George Mason Law School, Ashland University come to mind–the administration is able to hire first rate conservative scholars at below market rates because they are actively discriminated against at probably 90 percent of American colleges and universities. Other universities will tolerate a token conservative, but having a second conservative in a department is beyond the pale.

All together now, class, spell the plural, W-I-M-P-S.

Oh, heck, let me be honest, not snarky: Nothing stops the Yanks from freeing themselves from this garbage unless my British  mentor is right, and I hope he isn’t: Americans are happy to be serfs, but they don’t like being portrayed in the media as hillbillies.

So whenever the zeroes they all gladly pay taxes for threaten to do just that, they promptly cave.

If I die tonight, I want this on the record: If I couldn’t be a Canuck and managed to bear the unbearable sorrow, I’d be a true Yankee hillbilly and proud of it. Do you think we Canucks have so far stood off the Sharia lawfare crowd, with all their money and threats, by worrying much what smarmy (and sometimes vicious) tax burdens think?

Comments
MathGrrl- Here is the paper: A Vivisection of the ev Computer Organism: Identifying Sources of Active Information
Abstract: ev is an evolutionary search algorithm proposed to simulate biological evolution. As such, researchers have claimed that it demonstrates that a blind, unguided search is able to generate new information. However, analysis shows that any non-trivial computer search needs to exploit one or more sources of knowledge to make the search successful. Search algorithms mine active information from these resources, with some search algorithms performing better than others. We illustrate these principles in the analysis of ev. The sources of knowledge in ev include a Hamming oracle and a perceptron structure that predisposes the search towards its target. The original ev uses these resources in an evolutionary algorithm. Although the evolutionary algorithm finds the target, we demonstrate a simple stochastic hill climbing algorithm uses the resources more efficiently.
How long do you think it will take you to get your refutation of that paper published?Joseph
February 16, 2011
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F/N: __________ >> symbol [?s?mb?l] n 1. something that represents or stands for something else, usually by convention or association, esp a material object used to represent something abstract 2. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) an object, person, idea, etc., used in a literary work, film, etc., to stand for or suggest something else with which it is associated either explicitly or in some more subtle way 3. (Mathematics) a letter, figure, or sign used in mathematics, science, music, etc. to represent a quantity, phenomenon, operation, function, etc. 4. (Psychoanalysis) Psychoanal the end product, in the form of an object or act, of a conflict in the unconscious between repression processes and the actions and thoughts being repressed the symbols of dreams 5. (Psychology) Psychol any mental process that represents some feature of external reality vb -bols, -bolling, -bolled US, -bols -boling, -boled (tr) another word for symbolize [from Church Latin symbolum, from Greek sumbolon sign, from sumballein to throw together, from syn- + ballein to throw] Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003 >> ____________kairosfocus
February 16, 2011
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Mathgrrl,
I also believe that symbols must be assigned meaning in order to function as symbols. Based on previous discussions that I’ve read here, this is one point where equivocation is likely to slip in.
We can certainly explore whatever equivocation "is likely to slip in", but first we should establish the observation regarding symbols, or else, we might not recognize equivocation from obfuscation. Discussing the observation itself seems to be what you wish to avoid, so lets go to it. Symbols and the things they are mapped to are discreet, are they not?Upright BiPed
February 16, 2011
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DrBot:
Joseph – we observe stochastic processes at work in living systems. stones erode stochastically – even the ones at stonehenge. I don’t understand why both of you seem to believe that we can’t determine if life is evolving – even by studying it directly – unless we can determine exactly how the first living things were created?
So much confusion; so little time. Yes we can determine living organisms are evolving without knowing how they originated. However we cannot know if that evolution is telic or stochastic. That said, what stochastic processes do we observe at work in living systems and how as it determined they are stochastic? Stones do erode but eroding stones do not account for Stonehenge, just its current condition. It wouldn't make any sense to study Stonehenge as anything other than an artifact.Joseph
February 16, 2011
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MathGrrl methinks you are much too easily impressed by appearance,,, As I believe kairosfocus said a few days ago, paraphrase,, 'Now show me a evolutionary algorithm that can program a computer better than the original computer itself is programmed and then I will indeed be impressed.' Here is the paper you requested, which I had listed previously; A Vivisection of the ev Computer Organism: Identifying Sources of Active Information George Montañez, Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II Abstract: ev is an evolutionary search algorithm proposed to simulate biological evolution. As such, researchers have claimed that it demonstrates that a blind, unguided search is able to generate new information. However, analysis shows that any non-trivial computer search needs to exploit one or more sources of knowledge to make the search successful. Search algorithms mine active information from these resources, with some search algorithms performing better than others. We illustrate these principles in the analysis of ev. The sources of knowledge in ev include a Hamming oracle and a perceptron structure that predisposes the search towards its target. The original ev uses these resources in an evolutionary algorithm. Although the evolutionary algorithm finds the target, we demonstrate a simple stochastic hill climbing algorithm uses the resources more efficiently. http://evoinfo.org/publications/a-vivisection-of-ev/bornagain77
February 16, 2011
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MG: 1: Kindly, do please address the civility-strawman matter at 139, which also seems to have been developing with UB. 2: Kindly, do please address the evidence that both the GA's addressed in 117 above, by the words of their creators, are in-island of function searches and crucially depend on a suitably friendly fitness landscape, instead of addressing he reality of far more complex config spaces with vast seas of non-function that deeply isolate islands of function. 3: Kindly, address the matter that it seems that a very high fraction of variations for ev et al will be favourable, when the evidence from living systems is that the overwhelming majority of variations in genes are adverse, but not sufficiently so to be immediately fatal, leading to a progressive malfunction burden, embrittlement/loss of relilience, and vulnerability to population collapse triggered by environmental crisis. 4: Kindly address the need to first create a metabolising entity with a vNSR facility, before the tree of life can have a root. 5: Kindly address the gap between the observation of islands of function for informational bio-molecules [e.g. protein fold domains, the implications of having a definite code for DNA linked to that, etc], and the implicitly assumed smooth path to transformation of body plans accessible by fine gradations. 6: Kindly, please apply said solution to explain origin of major body plans surrounding say the Cambrian, origin of vertebrates, of land animals, of birds, of bats and of men. 7: Kindly, please provide observational evidence on the ground that substantiates the claim that macroevolution by a graduallly branching tree of life pattern happened, and linked to that, that ev et al accurately model said pattern. 8: In that context, kindly explain remarks by Patterson et al and Gould et al on gaps in the fossil record. For the above, breif point form notes and links to substantiating evidence, perhaps at sites such as Wikipedia, Talk Origins, NCSE, NSTA, NAS, educational sites for college courses, etc, should be enough if there is to be found empirical, observational evidence there. Thanks GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 16, 2011
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bornagain77, The paper I was requesting is the one that you say shows that ev is "goal directed." I assure you, from personal review of both ev and Tierra, that neither of them can be so described.MathGrrl
February 16, 2011
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Upright BiPed,
I also believe that symbols must be assigned meaning in order to function as symbols.
Based on previous discussions that I've read here, this is one point where equivocation is likely to slip in. "Assigning meaning" is a human activity. The risk of equivocation arises when the word "symbol" is used in another context, for example the genetic code, and the baggage of "assigning meaning" is dragged in, thereby attempting to prove ID correct by definition. I'm not saying that you are attempting to do this, only that I've seen it before and so I'm wary of the rhetorical approach you are using. In my experience it leads to more confusion than resolution. If you have a position you'd like to discuss with me, just state it. There is no need for all the questions -- you know what you want to say, I don't. Make your point as clearly and succinctly as possible. I am interested in it.MathGrrl
February 16, 2011
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Hello Mathgrrl, Please allow me to show you what a “rhetorical device” is. This is my original question to you:
Do you know of any recorded information (information instantiated into matter) that came to exist by means of unguided processes?
The words I chose to use in that question (such as: any, came, exist, means, etc) are easily accessible to any English-speaking adult. The phrasing I used (such as: “do you know”) is also rather simple, and certainly not beyond the reach of even a typical child. This now leaves two objects in the sentence; the first object being “recorded information” and the second being “unguided processes”. In an information society, one would think that the general concept of “recorded information” is not too difficult to attain, yet even still, I added a parentheses with the additional clarification of “information instantiated into matter”. As for the second object, I added an entirely separate sentence in order to further clarify (by “unguided” I mean without the aid or input of a mind). So what we have is a rather simple and direct question: "Do you know of any recorded information that came to exist without the input of a mind?" Do you see? It’s all very simple. But what was your response?
Upright BiPed, I’m afraid I can’t make any sense out of your question
I am not afraid to admit it, Mathgrrl – I just don’t believe you. I don’t think there is a single word or phrase in that question that you don’t understand. I believe you use those words regularly and are familiar with each of them. Honestly, I think you understand the question, and quite frankly, I think you should have answered it. - - - - - - I then went on to ask you two other questions in that same post:
Do you know of any recorded information that doesn’t exist by means of an abstraction – symbolic representation?
and
Do you know of any symbols that were assigned meaning by means of unguided processes?
Here too we find very simple questions given in common English. Instead of addressing these questions you went on to insinuate that I was making assumptions, in fact, you suggested that these questions were actually “loaded” with assumptions. What are these assumptions Mathgrrl? From my questions you might gather that I obviously assume information can be recorded. Surely that is not what you are objecting to. You can also gather that I believe information is recorded by means of symbolic representation. I also believe that symbols must be assigned meaning in order to function as symbols. These are not terrible controversial assumptions. Are these the assumptions you wish to object to? I find that hard to believe. What is interesting Mathgrrl, is that I made no controversial assumptions. I simply asked you a couple of questions based upon the general observations that anyone can make. Suddenly, I get the distinct feeling that if these observations cannot be discussed without inserting your own assumptions in them from the start, then you would prefer to act as if you don’t understand the question.Upright BiPed
February 16, 2011
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MathGrrl here is the paper on PI, Prescriptive Information (PI) Excerpt: The informal adjective “prescriptive” has been used for decades, if not centuries, to describe functional information. But the formal term “Prescriptive Information (PI)” first appeared in scientific literature in 2004 (Trevors and Abel, 2004), although its unnamed uniqueness and importance was delineated earlier (Abel, 2000, 2002). The formal term of PI was further developed in “More than metaphor: Genomes are objective sign systems (Abel and Trevors, 2006a, 2007): "The “meaning” (significance) of Prescriptive Information (PI) is the function that information instructs or produces at its destintion." The definitive paper on prescriptive information, especially as it relates to genetic and epigenetic controls of living metabolism, was in press for nearly two and a half years. It finally appeared in peer-reviewed literature in April of 2009 (Abel, 2009a). A closely related and integral concept of prescriptive information is Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC) (Abel and Trevors, 2005) FSC addresses the unique ability of linear digital symbol systems to represent and provide integrative controls of physical systems. A major breakthrough in semantic and biosemiotic research was the development of a method to quantify FSC, including the FSC of nucleic acids and proteins (Durston, et al., 2007). Szostak et al have shared in emphasizing the need to further qualify the nature of functional information (Szostak, 2003). An alternative attempt to measure “functional information” has also been published (Hazen, et al., 2007). Important terms relating to PI include Choice Contingency, as opposed to mere Chance Contingency and law-like necessity (Abel and Trevors, 2006b, Abel, 2009c, Trevors and Abel, 2004). The Cybernetic Cut defines a seemingly infinitely deep ravine that divides mere physicodynamic constraints from formal controls (Abel, 2008a, b). The CS Bridge is the one-way bridge across The Cybernetic Cut made possible through instantiation of formal choices into physical configurable switch-settings (Abel, 2008a). No one has ever observed PI flow in reverse direction from inanimate physicodynamics to the formal side of the ravine—the land of bona fide formal pragmatic “control.” The GS Principle states that selection for potential function must occur at the molecular-genetic level of nucleotide selection and sequencing, prior to organismic existence (Abel, 2009b, d). Differential survival/reproduction of already-programmed living organisms (natural selection) is not sufficient to explain molecular evolution or life-origin (Abel, 2009b). Life must be organized into existence and managed by prescriptive information found in both genetic and epigenetic regulatory mechanisms. The environment possesses no ability to program linear digital folding instructions into the primary structure of biosequences and biomessages. The environment also provides no ability to generate Hamming block codes (e.g. triplet codons that preclude noise pollution through a 3-to-1 symbol representation of each amino acid) (Abel and Trevors, 2006a, 2007). The environment cannot decode or translate from one arbitrary language into another. The codon table is arbitrary and physicodynamically indeterminate. No physicochemical connection exists between resortable nucleotides, groups of nucleotides, and the amino acid that each triplet codon represents. Although instantiated into a material symbol system, the prescriptive information of genetic and epigenetic control is fundamentally formal, not physical. http://www.us.net/life/index.htm Dr. Don Johnson explains the difference between Shannon Information and Prescriptive Information, as well as explaining 'the cybernetic cut', in this following Podcast: Programming of Life - Dr. Donald Johnson interviewed by Casey Luskin - audio podcast http://www.idthefuture.com/2010/11/programming_of_life.html It is very easy MathGrrl, instead a very involved mathematics,all you, or any other neo-Darwinists, has to do to provide 'concrete' proof for material processes generating prescriptive information, is to show the origination of any novel 'code' by purely material processes: "A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor). It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required. ,,,there is no known law of nature and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter. Werner Gitt 1997 In The Beginning Was Information pp. 64-67, 79, 107." (The retired Dr Gitt was a director and professor at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology (Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt, Braunschweig), the Head of the Department of Information Technology.) Here is the challenge put to you MathGrrl, explained so simply that a child can understand it,,, The DNA Code - Solid Scientific Proof Of Intelligent Design - Perry Marshall - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4060532 further note; Biophysicist Hubert Yockey determined that natural selection would have to explore 1.40 x 10^70 different genetic codes to discover the optimal universal genetic code that is found in nature. The maximum amount of time available for it to originate is 6.3 x 10^15 seconds. Natural selection would have to evaluate roughly 10^55 codes per second to find the one that is optimal. Put simply, natural selection lacks the time necessary to find the optimal universal genetic code we find in nature. (Fazale Rana, -The Cell's Design - 2008 - page 177) Moreover the first DNA code in life had to be at least as complex as the current DNA code found universally in life: Shannon Information - Channel Capacity - Perry Marshall - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5457552/ “Because of Shannon channel capacity that previous (first) codon alphabet had to be at least as complex as the current codon alphabet (DNA code), otherwise transferring the information from the simpler alphabet into the current alphabet would have been mathematically impossible” Donald E. Johnson – Bioinformatics: The Information in Life "In the last ten years, at least 20 different natural information codes were discovered in life, each operating to arbitrary conventions (not determined by law or physicality). Examples include protein address codes [Ber08B], acetylation codes [Kni06], RNA codes [Fai07], metabolic codes [Bru07], cytoskeleton codes [Gim08], histone codes [Jen01], and alternative splicing codes [Bar10]. Donald E. Johnson – Programming of Life – pg.51 - 2010 further notes: Besides multiple layers of 'classical information' embedded in overlapping layers throughout the DNA, there has now been discovered another layer of 'quantum information' embedded throughout the DNA: Quantum Information In DNA & Protein Folding - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ The ‘Fourth Dimension’ Of Living Systems https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Y The relevance of continuous variable entanglement in DNA – June 21, 2010 Abstract: We consider a chain of harmonic oscillators with dipole-dipole interaction between nearest neighbours resulting in a van der Waals type bonding. The binding energies between entangled and classically correlated states are compared. We apply our model to DNA. By comparing our model with numerical simulations we conclude that entanglement may play a crucial role in explaining the stability of the DNA double helix. http://arxiv.org/abs/1006.4053v1 Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint Excerpt: “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/bornagain77
February 16, 2011
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bornagain77,
DRBot, by all means, please present a concrete example of life generating any functional prescriptive information whatsoever.
This requires a rigorous mathematical definition of "functional prescriptive information" and examples of how to calculate it. Is this another variant of CSI? gpuccio made an impressive, albeit ultimately unsuccessful, attempt to do so at the four part discussion set up by Mark Frank. I would be very interested if you could help us progress that effort.MathGrrl
February 16, 2011
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Joseph,
They are targeted searches.
Read the documentation at the links I provided. Your claim is incorrect.
While I’m happy to discuss those simulators in more detail, my core point above is that neither ev nor Tierra has an explicit goal.
There was just a peer-reviewed paper that exposed EV as a targeted search.
Please provide a link. If the paper made that claim, it is wrong.MathGrrl
February 16, 2011
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DRBot, by all means, please present a concrete example of life generating any functional prescriptive information whatsoever.bornagain77
February 16, 2011
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KF: we can observe life and study genetics to establish if or how life evolves from one species to the next. these observations are not contingent on knowing the OOL. We can study how water turns into ice without knowing the OOW. Lifes origin is not directly connected to how life works as we observe it today - we can study it directly! Joseph - we observe stochastic processes at work in living systems. stones erode stochastically - even the ones at stonehenge. I don't understand why both of you seem to believe that we can't determine if life is evolving - even by studying it directly - unless we can determine exactly how the first living things were created?DrBot
February 16, 2011
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Joseph, is this the paper? A Vivisection of the ev Computer Organism: Identifying Sources of Active Information George Montañez, Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, Robert J. Marks II Abstract: ev is an evolutionary search algorithm proposed to simulate biological evolution. As such, researchers have claimed that it demonstrates that a blind, unguided search is able to generate new information. However, analysis shows that any non-trivial computer search needs to exploit one or more sources of knowledge to make the search successful. Search algorithms mine active information from these resources, with some search algorithms performing better than others. We illustrate these principles in the analysis of ev. The sources of knowledge in ev include a Hamming oracle and a perceptron structure that predisposes the search towards its target. The original ev uses these resources in an evolutionary algorithm. Although the evolutionary algorithm finds the target, we demonstrate a simple stochastic hill climbing algorithm uses the resources more efficiently. http://evoinfo.org/publications/a-vivisection-of-ev/ further notes: Evolutionary Synthesis of Nand Logic: Dissecting a Digital Organism – Dembski – Marks – Dec. 2009 Excerpt: The effectiveness of a given algorithm can be measured by the active information introduced to the search. We illustrate this by identifying sources of active information in Avida, a software program designed to search for logic functions using nand gates. Avida uses stair step active information by rewarding logic functions using a smaller number of nands to construct functions requiring more. Removing stair steps deteriorates Avida’s performance while removing deleterious instructions improves it. http://evoinfo.org/publications/evolutionary-synthesis-of-nand-logic-avida/ Constraints vs. Controls – Abel – 2010 Excerpt: Classic examples of the above confusion are found in the faulty-inference conclusions drawn from many so-called “directed evolution,” “evolutionary algorithm,” and computer-programmed “computational evolutionary” experimentation. All of this research is a form of artificial selection, not natural selection. Choice for potential function at decision nodes, prior to the realization of that function, is always artificial, never natural. http://www.bentham.org/open/tocsj/articles/V004/14TOCSJ.pdf Yet MathGrrl and DrBot, does it not strike you in the least bit particular that you guys are squabbling over whether evolutionary algorithms generate any functional prescriptive information whatsoever, when the simplest life easily outclasses the best computer programs man has ever devised???? As well it strikes me as very peculiar that you guys are arguing so strenuously for 'proof of evolution' in the first place with what are clearly intelligently designed computer programs!?! Should not you guys, if you are truly trying to impress people with the overwhelming validity of neo-Darwinism, use concrete examples from life itself instead of using devised computer programs??? But then again perhaps you guys should stick with trying to fool people into believing in neo-Darwinism with devised computer programs instead of life since life itself offers you no relief from your poverty of evidence,,, The GS (genetic selection) Principle – David L. Abel – 2009 Excerpt: Stunningly, information has been shown not to increase in the coding regions of DNA with evolution. Mutations do not produce increased information. Mira et al (65) showed that the amount of coding in DNA actually decreases with evolution of bacterial genomes, not increases. This paper parallels Petrov’s papers starting with (66) showing a net DNA loss with Drosophila evolution (67). Konopka (68) found strong evidence against the contention of Subba Rao et al (69, 70) that information increases with mutations. The information content of the coding regions in DNA does not tend to increase with evolution as hypothesized. Konopka also found Shannon complexity not to be a suitable indicator of evolutionary progress over a wide range of evolving genes. Konopka’s work applies Shannon theory to known functional text. Kok et al. (71) also found that information does not increase in DNA with evolution. As with Konopka, this finding is in the context of the change in mere Shannon uncertainty. The latter is a far more forgiving definition of information than that required for prescriptive information (PI) (21, 22, 33, 72). It is all the more significant that mutations do not program increased PI. Prescriptive information either instructs or directly produces formal function. No increase in Shannon or Prescriptive information occurs in duplication. What the above papers show is that not even variation of the duplication produces new information, not even Shannon “information.” http://www.scitopics.com/The_GS_Principle_The_Genetic_Selection_Principle.html As well it bothers me that you guys are so eager to divorce evolution from the origin of life issue,,, One Million Dollar Origin Of Life Prize; http://www.us.net/life/index.htm For if purely material processes have such a extremely difficult time accounting for any functionally coded information whatsoever, as is shown by extensive origin of life research, then what in blue blazes makes you think that when replication is thrown on top of material processes you will suddenly overcome this universe wide chasm that separates functional information and material processes? Don't you guys see the disconnect in your logic??? The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity - David L. Abel - 2009 Excerpt: "A monstrous ravine runs through presumed objective reality. It is the great divide between physicality and formalism. On the one side of this Grand Canyon lies everything that can be explained by the chance and necessity of physicodynamics. On the other side lies those phenomena than can only be explained by formal choice contingency and decision theory—the ability to choose with intent what aspects of ontological being will be preferred, pursued, selected, rearranged, integrated, organized, preserved, and used. Physical dynamics includes spontaneous non linear phenomena, but not our formal applied-science called “non linear dynamics”(i.e. language,information). http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdfbornagain77
February 16, 2011
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Dr Bot: Your analogy breaks down. Water's origin is not inherently connected to how water is said to be evolving into something else. You are looking at a theory of origin of species that first begs the question of origin of the first species, on the same begged issue of functional info origins, that is begged on origin of novel body plans. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 16, 2011
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Wow DrBot- nice of you to ignore my explanation: Ya see if living organisms did ot arise from non-living matter via stochastic procsses then there would be no reason to infer stochastic processes are solely responsible for its subsequent diversity. Determining Stonehenge was designed was a huge factor into how it was investigated. True we don't know how it was designed and constructed, but we investigate differently from rock formations nature creates. Just about everything changes when the "how it came to be that way?" switches from nature, operating freely to intelligent design.Joseph
February 16, 2011
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Joseph: I think the more fundamental point is that hey are searches within already hit on target zones. You are right that the programs preload fitness funcitons and in effect start at a given point on the shoreline, then toss out a ring of ranom points. Then where the steep ascent is inferred from what most improves. This then leads to a hill-climbing. This builds in all sorts of targetting info, and leads to an implicit targetting that tracks functional peaks. What is not built in is the observed insensitivity that causes gradual degradation of function, then extinction into non-function through genetic degradation. If one good micro mut that may push up the hill a bit has to reckon with thousands of small degradations that reduce overall function gradually,the overwhelming trend will be sliding down the hill into the sea of non-function. That would especially happen if the functionality loses resilience as more and more sub-functions and flexibility are lost. Then, push in an environmental catastrophe and bingo, function vanishes. Extinction of the gradually less resilient that then become unfit. Yet another way in which big questions are being begged. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 16, 2011
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Yes, whenever you study how something works there is always a question of how it came to be. Studying water begs the question of the origin of water. The point, which you seem to have missed, is that you don't need to answer the question of OOW (Origin Of Water) in order to study how water works. Inferring a designer begs the same questions of course! Joseph:
You need to know HOW life came to b in order to figur out HOW it evolved.
No you don't - you only need to know how life came to be if you want to understand how it came to be.DrBot
February 16, 2011
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F/N: onlookers, in effect darwinian style theory, despite pretensions, is a theory of micro-adaptations or what could be called microevo; which is not even disputed by modern Young Earth Creationists. That is then without acknowledging the leap, simply extrapolated into the very different issue of macro evo, i.e getting to novel body plans [requiring upwards of 10 mn bits of dFSCI, unaccounted for on the undirected search capacity of the observed universe], and the root question of getting to metabolising, self replicating cell based life that implements a vNSR [100 + k bits of dFSCI] is simply begged quietly.kairosfocus
February 16, 2011
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G: Pardon, but a matter of greater moment is now on the table for you, as 130 above highlights: civility. Are you now willing to withdraw your accusation that I have misrepresented the authors of ev etc by claiming they have set explicit targets, since it should be plain that my point is their intelligence set up the whole exercise within the target zone, i.e the targetting exercise is already done by the time we see the programs? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 16, 2011
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Dr Bot: pardon, but that boils down to you accept the begging of t5he question. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 16, 2011
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MathGrrl:
Simulations like ev and Tierra are modeling evolution.
Thy don't modelevolution as according to the theory of evoluton. They are targeted searches.
While I’m happy to discuss those simulators in more detail, my core point above is that neither ev nor Tierra has an explicit goal.
There was just a peer-reviewed paper that exposed EV as a targeted search. Go figure...Joseph
February 16, 2011
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DrBot:
You don’t need to know how life came to be in order to discover if it can evolve – we can study life to see if it does.
You need to know HOW life came to b in order to figur out HOW it evolved. Ya see if living organisms did ot arise from non-living matter via stochasti procsses then there would be no reason to infer stochastic processes are solely responsible for its subsequent diversity.Joseph
February 16, 2011
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MathGrrl: Thanks ;)DrBot
February 16, 2011
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Upright BiPed,
Your characterization is your own; feel free to reject it. - – - – - What is necessary for a symbollic relationship to exist between two discreet objects?
Again with the rhetorical devices? If you have a position you think is strong, please just state it clearly so that we can discuss it. Thus far, the most I can glean from your posts in this thread, with the most generous interpretation I can manage, is: Humans use symbols. It seems like you're trying to get from that observation to some point about there being symbols in biological organisms, but that would be mere equivocation and word games. I can't see the argument from your statements to date in any case. Do you actually want to discuss your views or not?MathGrrl
February 16, 2011
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DrBot, Very well put. You have summarized my position succinctly and eloquently. Thanks.MathGrrl
February 16, 2011
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KF, Is the germ theory of disease similarly flawed - after all it only looks at microorganisms and how their behaviour affects disease, this begs the question of their origin, but the theory avoids answering it.
n –> FYI, MG, I have nowhere stated that ev or tiera have EXPLICIT target points that hey move towards, but instead that they beg the real question by setting up a strawman issue: moving around in an island of function.
They are set up to explore islands of functionality - this is what the experiments are about - they are not set up to study how self replicators could arise by natural means - this is NOT what the experiments are about. If I set up an experiment to study how replicating orginasm change from generation to generation when subject to selection pressures then this is what my experiment is set up to do - it is not a strawman to study this aspect of evolutionary theory but not explain how self replicators could arise naturally - they are two different questions. Of course the existence of life begs the question of its origins, but so does the existance of oxygen and water, of planets and moons. We can study life, moons, atoms, and understand how they work - what rules govern their lives - the freezing and boiling points of water will NOT change if we discover that water was designed, so we don't need to know if it was designed in order to understand how it is affected by temperature. Life could have been designed, but it could also be evolving because it was DESIGNED to evolve - we can determine if life evolves emperically without having an answer to the question of lifes origins. Your position that we can't study the evolution (or not) of life today because we don't know if it is the product of a mind can apply to all aspects of science so it would render science impossible:
Evolutionary theory is focused on what happens once replicators exist. e –> TRANSLATION: having no cogent answer on OOL, the question is quietly begged, leaving the whole darwinian tree of life without a viable root
Tectonic plate theory is focussed on what happens once a planet with a molten core has formed -> TRANSLATION: having no cogent answer on OOP (Origin Of Planets), the question is quietly begged, leaving the whole drifting of continents without a viable root. You don't need to know how life came to be in order to discover if it can evolve - we can study life to see if it does. You don't need to know how a planet formed in order to discover if continents can drift - we can study continents to see if they do.DrBot
February 16, 2011
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PS: I am sure you know that much of Darwin's theory was responding to Paley's watchmaker idea. What is significant to above is that Paley, in Ch 2, discussed the idea of a self-replicating watch, and what would be needed for that, and where it would point. That is, he implied or at least foreshadowed the question of OOL (where an already functional entity, a watch now has the added facility of self-replication), and of the vNSR. Darwin could not have been ignorant of this issue, he just ducked it with a few weasel words about a creator at the end of origin. 150 years later, that cannot continue. (Not to mention, HS and college texts routinely discuss OOL in connexion with evolution; typically in an a priori implicitly materialistic context. The question must now be un-begged, I am afraid.)kairosfocus
February 16, 2011
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MG: Following up, let's do a bit of noting on points, re your 125 in rebuttal to my now 117: __________________ >> Abiogenesis research is focused on how the first replicators arose. a --> The root of Darwin's tree of life is the first cluster of ancestral organisms. b --> without viable dynamics on this the whole macro evolutionary edifice is a tree cut off from its root. (And, from outset as the close off at ch 15 of origin shows, in the tangled bank remarks, Darwin's theory was about Macro evo from 1859; just he was following Wilson's manipulative dictum in Arte of Rhetorique, that if you have a weak point studiously pass over it in silence and shift the focus elsewhere. It worked.) c --> so macroevo is a massive begging of the question of getting first the metabolising self replicator. Hence the relevance of the von Neumann Self Replicator [vNSR] issue. d --> Without a vNSR cell empirically justified as spontaneously coming from chance plus necessity in the still little electrified pond or wherever, there is no root to evolutionary materialistic theories. So, do let us know how a code based self replicator was added as a facility to a metabolising entity . . . Evolutionary theory is focused on what happens once replicators exist. e --> TRANSLATION: having no cogent answer on OOL, the question is quietly begged, leaving the whole darwinian tree of life without a viable root Simulations like ev and Tierra are modeling evolution. f --> Begged questions 2 - 5:
BQ 2: It is assumed a priori a la Lewontin & Sagan et al, that materialistic eviolution is the only credible explanation of origins:
To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality . . . . we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [[From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997.]
BQ3: Tiera, Ev and kin are then trotted out as showing how twerdun, but this is begging the question of actual empirical warrant for that assumtion. BQ 4: Ev and Tiera [et al], as I showed at 117, IMPLICITLY work from the start-point of incremental improvements within an island of function, i.e. the issue of getting to the shores of an island of function in the midst of a vast sea of non-functional configs, is begged. (Put another way, you have no right to assume that a fitness landscape is so conveniently shaped. You need to be getting to the first set of islands of function at 100 - 1000 k bits of info, then onward to provide new body plans at 10 - 100 mn or more, before trying to play around within any such islands to get to peaks by incremental hill-climbing.) BQ 5: such GAs also provide a designed context that purposefully sets up a working software package, instead of providing the software ab initio from chance plus necessity, as I suggested at what is now 119 above.
While I’m happy to discuss those simulators in more detail, g --> First, kindly answer to the excerpts at 117, where I summarise from the sites how these GA's beg the question of getting to shores of an island of function. h --> Incremental hill climbing or niche specialisation within such an island was never a serious question, as we have had breeds of dogs and varieties of fruit trees for thousands of years. That is partly through breeding out to specialisms from general blended forms, and partly by small mutations that usually destroy bits and pieces of genetic info, e.g. to get the smashed mouth of the English Bulldog, or the muts that gave rise to blond and red haired humans. my core point above is that neither ev nor Tierra has an explicit goal. i --> And, where did I ever say they had an EXPLICIT goal built into their algors? j --> Have I not, as just again, rather objected that hey are set up on the target already, i.e within an island of function, through a process that is purposefully designed and constructed? k --> Do you not see that this is a red herring led out to a strawman, by putting words in my mouth that simply do not belong there? That is clear from their readily available documentation. l --> More on the strawman, now being set up with the ad hominem that I have falsely characterised what they did, i.e the oil of ad hominems -- in turnabout accusation form, is being poured on the strawman. Your claim otherwise is incorrect. m --> Ignition, so now I am ignorant, stupid, insane or an outright liar. See how Dawkins et al have utterly poisoned the atmosphere? Did it ever occur to you that I might instead be pointing out something you have evidently overlooked, including when I cited and highlighted the problem at 117? Let me clip from that post, assuming that you will take time to read the highlighted web clips:
[Re tiera] See the core problem? You START in an island of function when the problem is to get TO an island of function. That begs question no 1. So, what we have is an optimisation program that depends on preloaded information about peaks of performance, and preloaded prestested functional information produced by purposeful intelligent design, to do some hill climbing. And of course one of the biggest already solved problems is the origin of symbolic, meaningful, functional messages and the executing machinery that makes it work. Which, is what UB was getting at . . . . [Re ev] In short, Ev, too, is operating within an island of existing function, using a symbolic, meaningful, coded entity set up and developed by highly intelligent designers, and is set up to reward fine increments in function. Oops, again. The problem, is to get TO such islands of function, whether we are talking origin of metabolising self-replicating life or origin of embryologically, environmentally and reproductively feasible novel body plans. No one disputes that within an island of fucntion, some variations may be =rewarded artificially or naturally., including Young Earth Creationists. The problem that repeatedly keeps getting lost in the excited discussions of moving around within islands of function — and the denunciations of those who challenge the problem — is the root problem: getting TO the islands of function in a sea of non-function, on chance plus necessity WITHOUT intelligence.
n --> FYI, MG, I have nowhere stated that ev or tiera have EXPLICIT target points that hey move towards, but instead that they beg the real question by setting up a strawman issue: moving around in an island of function. (Weasel is worse, it rewards non-functional configs on increments in proximity to pre-loaded target. Ev Tiera avida et al are slightly more clever, without an explicit target, but they too are begging big questions loaded with the import that FSCI is the product of design, as only designers have the capacity per observations, to use insight, purpose and knowledge to put complex systems at or near islands of function in vast seas of non-function. Throwing out rings of random sample points on shores of an island of function, then climbing the steepest ascent or a steep ascent, does not answer the decisive issue of getting to the shores of such an island in the first place. Similarly crispifying performance in a fuzzy control system or moving to optimal antenna designs are based on oodles of built in knowledge.) o --> The real, and silently passed by issue, is to get to such islands of function in the midst of vast seas of non-function, where the infinite monkeys theorem applies. >> ___________________ I trust we can now start over, on a more reasonable basis, with the atmosphere cleared of the poisonous, polarising Dawkinsian framing. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 16, 2011
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