Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

[Off Topic] Two Things I Don’t Understand

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From time to time on this site we discuss the theodicy — how is it possible to reconcile the existence of a good God with the existence of evil in the world.  It is a difficult problem, and anyone (in either camp) who says it is not plainly hasn’t thought about it enough.  Pain.  Suffering.  Misery.  Like a cruel and irresistible tsunami, the problem of evil threatens to engulf and overwhelm our minds.  Yes, there have been many excellent efforts at theodicy, and they are often helpful, but none is completely satisfactory.  The solution to the problem of evil is one of those things we see “through a glass darkly,” and we are not conceding defeat when we admit our solutions are tentative and our understanding far from complete.   

There is another thing I don’t understand, and I was thinking about it this morning during communion.  Why, in all of the vast universe, would God even take notice of me, far less love me enough to set aside the attributes of his deity and become a man and suffer and die for me.  The very thought is absurd.  Yet there is clear and convincing evidence that he did just that.  I have no right to share in the vast riches of God’s love and grace and mercy, but, astonishingly, he freely gives them to me anyway.  I have spent decades studying apologetics, and on an intellectual basis I am satisfied of the truth of Christ’s claims for himself.  However, my faith does not rest on mere dry intellectual assent.  Sometimes I sense his presence so strongly that, like the disciples on the road to Emmaus, my heart burns within me, and at those times I experience the indescribably wonderful lightness of a spirit infused with hope.   

The title of this post is misleading.  There are a lot more than two things I don’t understand.  But I have hope and for me that makes all the difference.  I will leave you with a meditation from David B. Hart: 

[When confronted with enormous evil we must not attempt to] console ourselves with vacuous cant about the mysterious course taken by God’s goodness in this world, or to assure others that some ultimate meaning or purpose resides in so much misery. Ours is, after all, a religion of salvation; our faith is in a God who has come to rescue His creation from the absurdity of sin and the emptiness of death, and so we are permitted to hate these things with a perfect hatred. For while Christ takes the suffering of his creatures up into his own, it is not because he or they had need of suffering, but because he would not abandon his creatures to the grave. And while we know that the victory over evil and death has been won, we know also that it is a victory yet to come, and that creation therefore, as Paul says, groans in expectation of the glory that will one day be revealed. Until then, the world remains a place of struggle between light and darkness, truth and falsehood, life and death; and, in such a world, our portion is charity. As for comfort, when we seek it, I can imagine none greater than the happy knowledge that when I see the death of a child I do not see the face of God, but the face of His enemy. It is not a faith that would necessarily satisfy Ivan Karamazov, but neither is it one that his arguments can defeat: for it has set us free from optimism, and taught us hope instead. We can rejoice that we are saved not through the immanent mechanisms of history and nature, but by grace; that God will not unite all of history’s many strands in one great synthesis, but will judge much of history false and damnable; that He will not simply reveal the sublime logic of fallen nature, but will strike off the fetters in which creation languishes; and that, rather than showing us how the tears of a small girl suffering in the dark were necessary for the building of the Kingdom, He will instead raise her up and wipe away all tears from her eyes—and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain, for the former things will have passed away, and He that sits upon the throne will say, “Behold, I make all things new.”

Comments
bornagin77, I know exactly what you mean about human experiments, and I, too have applied that method, which, in my judgment, can served a useful purpose. I once advanced a series of arguments using my adversary's world view (unannounced by me and unrecognized by him). He became so frustrated at the prospect of having his own tactics used on him that he called me "Judas." He didn't realize what had happened until another ID proponent interpreted the sequence of events for him. The point being that, in my opinion, you need not feel guilty for giving people a taste of their own medicine from time to time. To me, we cross the line only when we judge the goodness or badness or worth of another person in a global sense--as if we could look inside their soul and know their deepest intentions or as if we had the moral right to assume that they are totally responsible for their present mental state, which, of course, would be inordinately presumptuous for a Christian, even for a Christian warrior. For those who don't feel the need to fight the good fight, or enter into the fray of a culture war, these kinds of dilemmas don't come up so much. Because the middle-of-the-roaders are not emotionally involved, they are not so vulnerable to excess. Their sin is apathy and lukewarmness, which, from the vantage point of our savior, is the worst fault of all. The real heroes are those who know how to love and fight at the same time. Most lovers don't have the guts to fight, and most fighters don't have the heart to love. The greatest souls are those who integrate all the virtues. Christ could be a Lion or He could be a Lamb. A soldier can have courage but also be a barbarian, or he can be kind and also be a coward. But imagine the great war saint who has the courage to fight his enemies to the death, but also has the meekness to mend the wounds of those he has conquered and minister to their every need with heavenly tenderness.StephenB
November 26, 2012
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StephenB, very wise words as usual from you. And, although I have been guilty of letting my emotions drive my words on numerous times in dealing with neo-Darwinists, and seek to stick strictly to the facts of science because of that tendency on my part(which is much easier to do in my favorite field of science) on this particular thread of philosophy (a subject I'm very much handicapped in), towards the end of this thread, I had a specific point in mind by my brute words towards Bruce. I wished specifically to induce Bruce David's natural disdain for evil (a natural disdain we all have that is very hard, if not completely impossible, for someone to mask) all the while knowing Bruce would try to maintain that he did not believe evil is real.,,, He may have said that logically, in his mind, that he does not believe evil is real, but I'm absolutely positive that he can't possibly live that way consistently,,, and sure enough his actions soon revealed that natural disdain for evil and the inadequacy of his worldview to account for that disdain,,,,, thus, with that one trick pony lined up in my repertoire (a trick that got old real quick), I set out to expose that fatal flaw. And succeed I did(at least as far as conducting an experiment to elicit a response towards perceived evil would be concerned), though Bruce, in his pride or whatever, will most likely disagree, the fact is that his reactions towards me for the perceived injustice imposed on him reveal that he has a natural disdain for evil whatever his words to the contrary would say otherwise. ,,, But alas, I also realized, very belatedly, especially in your last post on love outweighing logic and reason, that dealing with humans is far different than dealing with experiments of science,,, thus though I succeeded in the experiment, I failed in the much weightier matter of caring that I was dealing with human not with a brute fact of science. And in that my 'experiment' failed miserably!bornagain77
November 26, 2012
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Bornagain77, I appreciate your kind words very much. To me, the famous 80/20 rule is essential. I try to identify and emphasize the “vital few” factors (the 20%) that truly define the subject matter and de-emphasize the numerous yet peripheral issues (the 80%) that count for much less. Of course the intellectual component is one thing and the emotional component is something else. I try very hard not to launch personal attacks, but I do fail occasionally (well, maybe rarely)—but it never happens in the beginning. Usually, I stay with the subject matter, and, when necessary, identify what I perceive to be inappropriate behavior patterns. I call attention to my adversaries’ “evasions” and “obfuscations” only to clarify the point that such tactics violate the principle of good-faith dialogue and to telegraph the fact that I am starting to get irked at the prospect of having to administer, perhaps for the tenth time, the same kind of corrective that should have been long since attended and responded to. I do, however, regret those few times that I have made the leap from writing comments about personal behavior to writing comments about personal character. To say “that was an irrational statement” or “that is a gross misrepresentation” is not the same thing as saying, “you are an irrational person” or “you are a dishonest person.” While I seldom make that leap, it has happened. When I become convinced that I am dealing with a person with a serious character flaw, I am often tempted to characterize his behavior in those terms. When I fail in this way, my conscience, that still small voice that tells me that I have done the wrong thing, tugs away at me and reminds me that I am communicating with someone who will live forever. That realization prompts me to reflect on the fact that I need to look inside my own soul and root out the impulses that prompted my fall.StephenB
November 26, 2012
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Stephen: Thanks for the kind words. In return I will say that your commitment to finding the truth and living by it---even though I disagree with your conclusions regarding what that truth is---does you credit. Peace to you, too.Bruce David
November 26, 2012
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Bruce @172, I will end on a positive note. I think there is much positive potential in your ethic for asking what love would do. Though you leave the key word undefined, I believe that much good can come from that attitude and I do, therefore encourage it. No one believes that reason or logic can substitute for love. Still, reason's rules have a role in helping us to understand the difference between when we are really loving and when we are simply doing as we please in the name of love. Beyond that, you will hear no more criticisms from me on this thread. Peace.StephenB
November 26, 2012
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Like, for instance, for comparison sake, this song:bornagain77
November 26, 2012
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StephenB, though BD probably does not, I appreciate the clarity that you brought to this thread, and admire the seeming ease and grace with which you cut through BD's sophistry (i.e. cut through B.D.'s B.S.),,, I'm truly like a bull in a china shop on these matters of philosophy many times, and I am not nearly as careful in many of these philosophy things as I ought be, and thus I can appreciate that subtle touch in others, and you, when I see it. Like, for instance, this song: Evanescence - My Heart Is Broken - music http://www.vevo.com/watch/evanescence/my-heart-is-broken/USWV41100052bornagain77
November 26, 2012
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Stephen, Well, so it's come down to flinging accusations of non-understanding at each other. I guess it's time to quit. Let the onlookers judge for themselves.Bruce David
November 26, 2012
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Better yet, find someone who is capable of rational thought and get his assessment.StephenB
November 26, 2012
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"I can’t find anything in them to attack, so I have to call them irrational and evasive rather than actually admit that either 1) I don’t understand them, or 2) I can’t find any logical error in them." On the contrary, your irrational nonsense is quite easy to understand and you have, indeed, been refuted every which way but Sunday. You have created an alternate reality that protects you from the truth of what happened to you on this thread. If you don't believe me, find someone who is capable of rational thought and get their assessment.StephenB
November 26, 2012
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Yeah StephenB, You OUGHT to actually admit that either 1) you don’t understand them, or 2) you can’t find any logical error in them. That's what a moral person would do.Mung
November 26, 2012
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Stephen: re 167
Bruce @161, you comment is so irrational and evasive that it doesn’t deserve a response.
Translation: I can't find anything in them to attack, so I have to call them irrational and evasive rather than actually admit that either 1) I don't understand them, or 2) I can't find any logical error in them.Bruce David
November 26, 2012
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Bruce @161, you comment is so irrational and evasive that it doesn't deserve a response.StephenB
November 26, 2012
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It will be nice to see you on that thread BD. I look forward to paitently refining your errant feelings that are deceiving you that moral evil exists. Of course, if you want, I'm sure we can work it out so that we can have a more 'feelings intensive' session to deal with these errant feelings of yours that seem to be deceiving you that evil exists, and thus get you the experience you cherish: Cruel Logic – video Description; A brilliant serial killer videotapes his debates with college faculty victims. The topic of his debate with his victim: His moral right to kill them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qd1LPRJLnI :)bornagain77
November 26, 2012
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Ahh but BD a new thread awaits: Libby Anne (part 3): A reply to her article, “How I lost faith in the pro-life movement” - November 26, 2012 https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/libby-anne-part-3-a-reply-to-her-article-how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement/bornagain77
November 26, 2012
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Stephen: re 159 I do believe you and I have already exhausted our relative positions on the topic of abortion. You know what my beliefs are on that subject. I'm not willing to rehash that one yet again.Bruce David
November 26, 2012
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BD you state: "I really don’t care what you think." At last, finally you are trying to live consistently in your moral free worldview. Now why did you have to go on and on pretending that you were morally offended by being called a New Age Quack? Were your feelings deceiving you that evil really does exist?? Better go back get more experrinece for your feelings fruitcake! :)bornagain77
November 26, 2012
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BA
“Well, I don’t notice BA getting back up and trying to clean himself up. He seems to be quite content to wallow.” to which BA asks BD: “What moral filth am I dirty with? I thought you said there are no morals to get dirty with?” You really need to stop being a moral bigot you New Age fruitcake!
I was just continuing with the metaphor that Stephen began. Don't read more into it than is actually there. Now I know that you will accuse me of lying or twisting or some such. But you know what, BA, I really don't care what you think. Your attempts to discredit me are so transparently lacking in integrity that you have forfeited all credibility.Bruce David
November 26, 2012
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Stephen:
You are confusing the responsibility of the believer to find the right authority with the teaching authority of the one who claims to have the truth. The authority of a revealed truth claim comes from the claimant, not the person who receives the teaching.
I disagree. You assent to the authority of scripture on your own authority. No one else does that for you. If you should decide to withdraw that assent at some point (as many do), you will do that on your own authority as well. If I decide to accept God's words as recorded in Conversations with God as valid, I do that on my own authority also. Each of us decides on our own authority whom or what, if anything, to accept as a source of truth. Each person is the ultimate authority for what he or she accepts as truth, and what he or she accepts as authority. There is no avoiding this.
If feelings can be misinterpreted, then they can be misleading, or, if they require extra experience to interpret, then that experience can be lacking. So, the answer to my question is “Yes,” feelings can mislead.” Why do I always have to do the thinking for both of us?
No, you are wrong. Feelings do not mislead. Inexperience misleads. I'll give you an example: A friend tells me that there is a Walmart in the suburb of Sierra Hills on Grand Ave. Unfortunately, I don't find it because I think I am in Sierra Hills, but I am actually in Sierra River. I cannot in fairness accuse my friend of misleading me; it was my inexperience with the suburbs that misled me. It is a subtle distinction, I know, but thinking requires the ability to make subtle distinctions. And the distinction is important. The conclusions that can be drawn from the statement that feelings can mislead one are very different from the conclusions that can be drawn from the statement that feelings are always accurate, but they can be misinterpreted because of inexperience.
God did not set up this game with pat answers. Living on this planet is a continual process of discovery and deepening understanding, leading eventually to wisdom, joy, love, and truth. What is your authority for making that claim? Why should anyone believe you?
I make the claim based on experience and years of study and contemplation. One should believe me if and only if the statement rings true for them. If it seems possible or plausible, then one should accept it provisionally and then seek to confirm or disconfirm it through their own experience, study, and contemplation. I do not expect anyone just to take my word for it.Bruce David
November 26, 2012
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Stephen states: "The reasoning goes something like this: “You sometimes fail to meet the demanding standards of Biblical morality or some equivalent of the natural moral law, so you are a hypocrite. You stand up, fall down in the mud, get back up and try to clean yourself up. I, on the other hand, never fail to meet my own convenient and easy standards, designed for the sole purpose of making my life as easy and demand-free as possible. I may be wallowing in a moral pig stye, but I feel no need to clean myself up because I have found a new name for dirt, and that becomes reality for me.” to which BD states: "Well, I don’t notice BA getting back up and trying to clean himself up. He seems to be quite content to wallow." to which BA asks BD: "What moral filth am I dirty with? I thought you said there are no morals to get dirty with?" You really need to stop being a moral bigot you New Age fruitcake!bornagain77
November 26, 2012
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Bruce
To the extent that your second paragraph applies to me, do you imagine that it is easy to live always according to the imperative “What would Love do now?”
. Such a framework has definite possibilities, unless, of course, love is defined in convenient and self-serving ways. Let's put it to the test. A young woman is about to abort her 5-week old fetus. Planned Parenthood has just told her that it is just a blob of tissue, but Human Life International explains its many human features, including a brain and a beating heart. What would love do now for the mother? What would love do now for the baby?StephenB
November 26, 2012
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Bruce
So ultimately, each of us is unavoidably his or her own authority, and thus has the responsibility to discover truth in our own way.
You are confusing the responsibility of the believer to find the right authority with the teaching authority of the one who claims to have the truth. The authority of a revealed truth claim comes from the claimant, not the person who receives the teaching. The authority of Scriptural teachings is based on the authority of the Church’s claim that they are inerrant and inspired, which in turn, is based on the authority of Christ to empower the Church to make that claim, which in turn, is based on Christ’s Divinity, which is turn, is confirmed by the prophecies that prefigured his arrival and his subsequent claims to Divinity associated with his supernatural miracles, including his supernatural resurrection. The authority of Neal Donald Walsch’s teachings, on the other hand, is based solely on his claim to have communicated with God. On the strength of his claims alone, he says, “trust me.” Unlike Christ, he was not foretold. Unlike Christ, he did not claim to be God himself. Unlike Christ, he did not live a perfect life. Unlike Christ, he did not rise from the dead. In any case, these claims to authority are different matters entirely from the responsibility of the believer or the receiver of the teaching to discern which claims to authority are justified and, consequently, which teachings should be believed. I realize that the words "justify" and "should" don't often find their way into your vocabulary, but I don't abandon rational terms and phrases simply because you don't entertain them yourself.
What’s the problem? That happens to be part of the wholeness of truth—morality is relative because in God’s eyes there is no right and wrong (in the moral sense of those words).
That makes no sense. If truth is absolute, then every aspect of truth is absolute, including the aspect of moral truth. [That brings us back to the question of feelings. Can they mislead us about which sources are trustworthy? By the way, that question calls for a yes or no answer.]
Well, the answer is more complex than a simple “yes” or “no” can encompass.
No, it isn’t. The question can be answered very easily with a yes or no.
Feelings are always an accurate guide to truth, but like any source of information (including scripture), they can be misinterpreted
If feelings can be misinterpreted, then they can be misleading, or, if they require extra experience to interpret, then that experience can be lacking. So, the answer to my question is “Yes,” feelings can mislead.” Why do I always have to do the thinking for both of us?
God did not set up this game with pat answers. Living on this planet is a continual process of discovery and deepening understanding, leading eventually to wisdom, joy, love, and truth.
What is your authority for making that claim? Why should anyone believe you?StephenB
November 26, 2012
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Stephen:
The reasoning goes something like this: “You sometimes fail to meet the demanding standards of Biblical morality or some equivalent of the natural moral law, so you are a hypocrite. You stand up, fall down in the mud, get back up and try to clean yourself up. I, on the other hand, never fail to meet my own convenient and easy standards, designed for the sole purpose of making my life as easy and demand-free as possible. I may be wallowing in a moral pig stye, but I feel no need to clean myself up because I have found a new name for dirt, and that becomes reality for me.”
1. Well, I don't notice BA getting back up and trying to clean himself up. He seems to be quite content to wallow. In fact he appears to be sinking ever deeper into the muck, near as I can tell. I call BA a hypocrite because he is apparently totally unwilling to make any effort to reconcile his actions and his professed belief once the discrepancy has been pointed out to him. He isn't even willing to acknowledge that he is failing to live up to his own standards. 2. Your second paragraph is hugely unfair to the majority of people who are moral relativists. Most people, whether they are relativists or not, have moral standards that they try to live by, and your description that "You stand up, fall down in the mud, get back up and try to clean yourself up." applies equally well to them as to any moral absolutist. I could not help but admire Christopher Hitchens' steadfast refusal to surrender his principles even in the face of his impending death from cancer, for instance. 3. To the extent that your second paragraph applies to me, do you imagine that it is easy to live always according to the imperative "What would Love do now?" Do you imagine that I don't also fail from time to time? My sister and I joke about it---laughing at how difficult it is for us to love certain people unconditionally, like Rush Limbaugh, for example (we're both confirmed liberals, in case you were wondering).Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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Bruce to BA: "No, I don’t believe hypocrisy is wrong. I just point out that the description fits you quite well, in case you want to reconsider how you interact with people you disagree with." This is a boilerplate comment conceived by moral relativists aimed at proponents of objective morality. I have heard it hundreds of times and I always marvel at how cheap and empty it is. The reasoning goes something like this: "You sometimes fail to meet the demanding standards of Biblical morality or some equivalent of the natural moral law, so you are a hypocrite. You stand up, fall down in the mud, get back up and try to clean yourself up. I, on the other hand, never fail to meet my own convenient and easy standards, designed for the sole purpose of making my life as easy and demand-free as possible. I may be wallowing in a moral pig stye, but I feel no need to clean myself up because I have found a new name for dirt, and that becomes reality for me."StephenB
November 25, 2012
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Stephen:
Recall that you didn’t say that we must all DISCOVER truth in our own way, you said that every individual is his own authority about what that one truth IS.
I intended them to have the same meaning. When I say that every individual is his own authority, I mean that there is no clear and unquestionable source outside ourselves to which we can turn for the answer. If we pick an outside source to trust as an authority, such as scripture or a charismatic figure, it is each of us who must make the choice to trust that source, and if we choose later to withdraw that trust, each of us must also make that choice. So ultimately, each of us is unavoidably his or her own authority, and thus has the responsibility to discover truth in our own way.
We also have that nagging problem that persists. How do you reconcile your claim that the wholeness of truth is absolute while moral truth is relative?
What's the problem? That happens to be part of the wholeness of truth---morality is relative because in God's eyes there is no right and wrong (in the moral sense of those words).
That brings us back to the question of feelings. Can they mislead us about which sources are trustworthy? By the way, that question calls for a yes or no answer.
Well, the answer is more complex than a simple "yes" or "no" can encompass. Feelings are always an accurate guide to truth, but like any source of information (including scripture), they can be misinterpreted. The trick is to learn to read one's feelings and the message they are sending at any particular point in time accurately. This takes time and experience, like learning any skill. God did not set up this game with pat answers. Living on this planet is a continual process of discovery and deepening understanding, leading eventually to wisdom, joy, love, and truth.Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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Bruce
The fact that each of us must discover it on our own in no way negates the fact that there is one Truth.
You have shifted the ground again. Recall that you didn't say that we must all DISCOVER truth in our own way, you said that every individual is his own authority about what that one truth IS. The former claim is not nearly the same as the latter. We also have that nagging problem that persists. How do you reconcile your claim that the wholeness of truth is absolute while moral truth is relative?
There is plenty of help, of course, but part of the problem is to discover which such source or sources to trust.
That brings us back to the question of feelings. Can they mislead us about which sources are trustworthy? By the way, that question calls for a yes or no answer.StephenB
November 25, 2012
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"Your words are definitely disrespectful, and also quite wrong, but not morally wrong" No my words, "You are a insane New Age Fruitcake" are what I find to be true, and my truth is just as valid as your truth according to you, thus what I say is not 'quite wrong' according to you, it is just that you have failed to take the path to the enlightened truth I have about you :) . Moreover why are you disrespecting my right to tell my truth to you and follow my spiritual path to enlighten you on your fruitcakedness???bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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BA:
ridicule and insult? Surely you jest Bruce Davidian, according to you there is no such thing as evil in the world, just different versions of good, why are you objecting to what I say? You act as if there was some moral implication to what I said. For crying out loud man up and walk your talk and quit crying about what I say since it is just what it is
Well, I'll say one thing for you---you have a real talent for making stuff up about me and then attacking me for it. I merely asked you if your strategy of saving souls by the use of ridicule and insult was effective. It seems to me that you probably know that it isn't, which makes you doubly hypocritical, doesn't it? Do you enjoy hanging your hypocrisy out for all the world to see? I'm just asking... So I'll answer your next question before you ask it: No, I don't believe hypocrisy is wrong. I just point out that the description fits you quite well, in case you want to reconsider how you interact with people you disagree with.Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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BA re 148: Do you really not know the answer? Your words are definitely disrespectful, and also quite wrong, but not morally wrong (since there is no such thing as objective morality). And by the way, in violation of the Golden Rule, which you just affirmed in 147. You really are quite the hypocrite, aren't you?Bruce David
November 25, 2012
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ridicule and insult? Surely you jest Bruce Davidian, according to you there is no such thing as evil in the world, just different versions of good, why are you objecting to what I say? You act as if there was some moral implication to what I said. For crying out loud man up and walk your talk and quit crying about what I say since it is just what it is!bornagain77
November 25, 2012
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07:31 PM
7
07
31
PM
PDT
1 2 3 6

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