Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Now Materialists Are Trying to Turn Occam’s Razor On Its Head

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

 Give me a break will ya.  In their feverish efforts to prop up the teetering materialist paradigm, to justify the unjustifiable, our materialist friends have now resorted to saying, essentially, black is white.  In a recent post a commenter turns Occam’s Razor on its head when he states:

 

It is a common misconception among ID supporters that scientists deliberately defy Occam’s Razor and pursue multiverse theories simply because they are uncomfortable with the idea of a designer.  This is false.

 

The commenter cites physicist Aurélien Barrau in support.  In this article Barrau states:

 

In any case, it is important to underline that the multiverse is not a hypothesis invented to answer a specific question.  It is simply a consequence of a theory usually built for another purpose. Interestingly, this consequence also solves many complexity and naturalness problems.  In most cases, it even seems that the existence of many worlds is closer to Ockham’s razor (the principle of simplicity) than the ad hoc assumptions that would have to be added to models to avoid the existence of other universes.

 

The sheer presumption, the overweening fatuity, of these statements (both the commenter’s and Barrau’s) beggars belief.  One must conclude that either they simply have no idea what Occam’s Razor means or they are deliberately trying to distort its meaning to support their conclusion.  I suspect the latter.

 

So, to set things straight, we will discuss first, what the Razor means, and secondly how it applies to the multiverse.

 

What Does Occam’s Razor Say?

 

William of Ockham (or, commonly, “Occam”) was a Franciscan friar and scholastic philosopher from the village of Ockham in Surrey, England who lived from the late 1200’s to the mid-1300’s.  Today, he is best remembered for Occam’s Razor.  Ockham’s formulation of the Razor, like all learned texts of the time, was expressed in Latin.  He stated:  entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.”  This is usually translated: “entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.” 

 

What Does Occam’s Razor Mean?

 

Occam’s Razor is anothe way of statig the “principle of parsimony.”  Britannica Concise Encyclopedia states that Occam’s Razor is:

 

A rule in science and philosophy stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly.  This rule is interpreted to mean that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known.  Also called law of parsimony.

 

Karl Popper argued that a preference for a simpler theory over a complex theory, other things being equal, is justified by his falsifiability criterion, because a simpler theory applies to more empirical cases and therefore is more “testable” and may be falsified more easily. 

 

If Multiverse Theory Violates the Razor, Does that Mean it is False?

 

We concede at the outset that should we conclude multiverse theory violates the Razor that would not, in itself, be the death knell for the theory.  Occam’s Razor is not a scientific theory itself.  It is a heuristic maxim.  Thus, a theory could violate the Razor and still be true.

 

Nevertheless, the Razor has stood the test of time, and remains useful.  A theory that violates the Razor has less standing than a theory that does not.  That is the very reason our commenter and Barrau have tried so hard to fit multiverse theory within the confines of the Razor, which, as we shall see, is like trying to fit Andre the Giant’s foot into a ballerina’s slipper.  No matter how you stretch it, it ain’t gonna fit.

 

Does Multiverse Theory Violate the Razor?

 

Of course it does.  Let’s go back to the original formulation of the Razor:  “entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity.” 

 

The multiverse theory posits that there are an infinite number of universes, and we just happen to live in one where the conditions for the existance of life are just right.  In other words, if there are an infinite number of universes, every condition that is not logically impossible will somewhere be instantiated. 

 

Thus, multiverse theory clearly violates the Razor. because it does not keep entities to an absolute minimum.  Indeed, by definition, the multiverse theory multiplies entities to an infinite degree!  This is why our commenter’s and Barrau’s statements are so staggering.  Far from meeting the conditions of the Razor, multiverse theory is the exact opposite of a theory that would meet the conditions of the Razor.  In other words, if multiverse theory, which posits the existence of infinite entities, does not violate the Razor, no theory does.

 

Comments
I've seen a brain without a mind but I've never seen a mind without a brain. To be perfectly honest, the only type of "mind without a brain" I can think of are ghosts. Are you honestly saying here that people are ghosts who still have bodies? When a mind is observed to function without a brain let me know. I'll believe that minds and brains are two seperate things then. Until then, minds need physical brains to exist, full stop, and nobody has even come close to showing otherwise. Patrick:
This says nothing of the nature of the intelligence nor whether any other form of intelligence could evolve elsewhere in this universe based upon different parameters.
Are you saying that intelligence could evolve in the universe without the help of any type of "intelligent designer"? If so, how would that naturally evolved intelligence determine if an "intelligent designer" was present at their OOL or not? And why can't we apply the same to our OOL?Lydia_Lunch
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
02:28 PM
2
02
28
PM
PDT
----Sal Gal: "My perspective, as someone who has taught logic more than fifty times, is that everyone who believes in the rationality of his or her worldview is terribly irrational. Science and reason are of no use when one confronts questions of the ultimate nature of existence." If, as a starting point, you assume any one of the following five things, you can demonstrate a great many things with reason: [A] Existence is a fact, [B] Some things are in motion, [C] Causes are related to effects [D]Some things are contingent, or [E] Being, goodness, and truth exist. If one accepts all five of these conditions and follows the light of reason, much about the ultimate nature of existence will become evident. The problem is that some skeptics reject the conditions necessary for rational demonstration and then complain that reason can't demonstrate anything.StephenB
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
Patrick,
The claim is that CSI contained within OUR biological system cannot be generated by matter and energy operating according to KNOWN physical law.
Then it follows that the CSI we ASSIGN to events is generally decreasing in time. Loosely, the reason is that the probabilities we ASSIGN to events generally go up as our understanding of them increases, and CSI decreases as probability increases. IDists speak as though CSI inheres in material entities. But there is no direct observation or measure of CSI. In its latest form, CSI is defined relative to a probability distribution on events and an agent that labels events with strings of symbols. The distribution and the agent are chosen by the individual performing the CSI computation, not given by nature.Sal Gal
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
01:55 PM
1
01
55
PM
PDT
gpuccio,
Before putting words into Dembski’s mouth you should maybe first try to understand him. Dembski has never stated “that what he calls ‘complex specified information’, or ‘CSI’, cannot be generated by purely natural processes”. Do you mean that human deigners are not “natural”? Or that Dembski does not believe that human are the designers of human artifacts?
How far back does your reading go? From early on, Phillip Johnson opposed naturalistic explanations of human behavior, equating naturalism with materialism as just about everyone does. Dembski followed suit, and held that intelligence was a "non-natural" source of information. And, yes, this implied that human beings were not entirely natural. (Many religious and otherwise spiritual people are quite comfortable with the idea that they have an essence -- a spirit -- that sets them apart from nature, though they live within nature.) Dembski originally put a bound of 500 bits on the CSI a purely natural process could generate. The shift to regarding intelligence as natural, but not material, came after his statement of the Law of Conservation of Information in No Free Lunch. Branding the opposition as materialists, rather than naturalists, is a relatively new thing for IDists. When this blog was new, the epithet naturalism was far more common than materialism. The declaration that intelligence is natural has profound theological ramifications. Some Christians may be willing to regard the Holy Spirit as God-in-Nature, but there is no corresponding "attitude adjustment" for Jews and Muslims. That is, most people who believe that the God of Abraham is the Creator of the universe insist that the Creator's intelligence is supernatural.Sal Gal
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
01:26 PM
1
01
26
PM
PDT
Barry:
ID does not attibute any characteristics to the designer except the ability to design. It certainly does not posit God. Keep your categories straight.
So, to be 100% clear, you think that "the designer" might not be God but still has the power to create universes? Out of interest, what would "the designer" have to do before you would call it God?Lydia_Lunch
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
11:51 AM
11
11
51
AM
PDT
gpuccio and Patrick, Thanks for your responses. Here's just a hint of where I would go in a (necessarily a very long) discussion of cosmological ID: I think that order and design are operationally indistinguishable in the cosmos. Deciding whether to identify order as design is a personal matter. There's not a rational basis for going one way or the other (which is not to say that there is no experiential basis). It's absurd to say that the world is just the way it is. It's absurd to say that something -- even information -- came out of nothing. I believe that the secret love of anti-theists and IDists is founded on common idolatry of reason. Each camp believes that rational interpretation of scientific findings leads to the truth, and that the other camp exhibits flawed reasoning as a consequence of prior commitment to obtaining certain conclusions. My perspective, as someone who has taught logic more than fifty times, is that everyone who believes in the rationality of his or her worldview is terribly irrational. Science and reason are of no use when one confronts questions of the ultimate nature of existence. I'm not going to follow up with discussion of this. But now you know that what I object to in ID is what I object to in anti-theism -- irrational idolatry of reason. And I will end by saying that I believe irrationally in a created universe.Sal Gal
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
11:50 AM
11
11
50
AM
PDT
Getting back to Occam's razor... The key point that has emerged from this online discussion of Occam's razor and ID is that it isn't about the explanatory merits of God vs. the multiverse, but rather about the explanatory merits of a Cosmic Designer, as opposed to the physical theory (say, string theory) underlying the multiverse. Some contributors have argued that explaining the CSI we see in the world by invoking a complex Cosmic Designer is actually less parsimonious than doing so by invoking the elegant theory which gives rise to the multiverse; while invoking a simple Cosmic Designer instead of a complex one reeks of theological ad hoc-ery, as the only designers we know are complex ones. I'd like to make a few points in response. First, any attempt to explain the cosmos in terms of a theory of any sort is unavoidably ad hoc, no matter how elegant the theory may be. One can always ask: why is THIS theory right, and not some other one? Second, the explanatory entities invoked by any physical theory are always: (a) multiple, and (b) separable from one another, at least in our thought. A theory which didn't invoke multiple, separable entities to explain the cosmos would no longer be a physical one, in any meaningful sense of the word. This in turn implies that any physical theory has an element of intellectually unsatisfying arbitrariness about it, as we can always ask: why does the theory posit THESE entities, and why does it posit THESE relations between them? Third, the nature of intelligence (human or otherwise) is critical to the discussion of how Occam's razor should be used, in relation to explaining the cosmos. For if the word "intelligence" merely denotes a physical process or set of physical processes, then of necessity it will be unable to explain the laws underlying these processes. There are, however, sound reasons for believing that intelligence cannot be identified with any physical process, even for minds (such as our own) which cease to function unless certain physical processes (e.g. respiration) are occurring. Philosopher David Oderberg expresses this point with admirable clarity: "The reason for the proposition that the intellect is immaterial is that there is an essential ontological mismatch between the proper objects of intellectual activity ... and any kind of potential physical embodiment of them: we might call this the embodiment problem, but looked at in a slightly narrower way, in cognitive-scientific terms, it might be called the location or storage problem. Concepts, prepositions, and arguments are abstract; potential material loci for these items are concrete. The former are unextended; the latter are extended. The former are universals; the latter are particular. Nothing that is abstract, unextended, and universal - and it is perhaps hard to see how anything abstract could be other than unextended and universal - could be embodied, located, or stored in anything concrete, extended, and particular. Therefore, the proper objects of intellectual activity can have no material embodiment or locus." ('Hylemorphic Dualism', in E.F. Paul, F.D. Miller, and J. Paul (eds) Personal Identity (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005): 70-99. (Originally in Social Philosophy and Policy 22 (2005): 70-99.) Web address: http://www.rdg.ac.uk/AcaDepts/ld/Philos/dso/papers/Hylemorphic%20Dualism.pdf .) Fourth, if the foregoing argument is correct, then we have an interesting result: any physical theory of the cosmos implies some version of ID, as the mathematical concepts it employs can only exist in some sort of Super-Mind which generated the cosmos. To say that the concepts exist in some purely abstract, mathematical realm is nonsensical. It is absurd to suppose that concepts can float around free of minds, and in any case, such an "explanation" fails to account for the physical reality of the cosmos: mathematics alone cannot explain why the concepts invoked by one physical theory (say, string theory) are endowed with reality, while those of others are not. The only mathematical way to avoid this move is to say that the concepts invoked by all mathematical theories are equally real, each in their own separate realm - but them we really DO have a nightmare that would make Occam turn in his grave: all possible mathematical theories are true somewhere! Fifth, the disparate components of a physical theory CAN be unified on a non-physical level, if we view the theory itself as the embodiment of a "great thought" by a transcendent Super-Intellect. To discern the nature of that thought, we have to reason backwards: look at the salient features of the world (especially CSI) and ask what the Intelligence creating them was aiming to accomplish. Once we can figure that out, we can see how the entities and relations invoked by the theory underlying the cosmos "hang together."vjtorley
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
10:42 AM
10
10
42
AM
PDT
Winston Macchi: "Why should this be obvious? Seems like a rather large leap of faith to me." No, it's just an empirical fact. We can observe the design process (in humans) both subjectively (when we ourselves design something) and objectively (when others design). I am just using the terms that we use to describe such an experience. The subjective "I" (human consciousness) is the subject which perceives itself in the act of designing. Intelligence is the name usually given to the subjective faculty of consciousness which allows us to deal with meaning, both in input (cognition) and in output (design). "But, if we don’t know what properties of human consciousness allow us to generate CSI, and, as you state, intelligence is a property of human consciousness, we don’t know if intelligence is one of the properties needed to generate CSI. Therefore, is the I in ID unwarranted?" No, as I have already said intelligence is clearly subjectively perceived as the faculty of consciousness implied in the process of design. That's how the name, and the concept, originate. From subjective perception, and an association of that subjective perception with objective results (designed things, CSI). All of that is empirical. Intelligent is not observed through the senses: it is not an object. It is directly perceived in ourselves as a faculty, and is part of many inferences of our mind. We never observe a process of design in ourselves where the faculty which is called "intelligence" is not at work. "That is something that, if your earlier statements are correct, is conflicting with your current statements." I can't understand: what is conflicting with what? "IDers seem to transfer one of the properties of humans (intelligence) to a designer, but choose not to transfer other properties (complexity) and they have no basis for such a claim, as you make clear from your earlier statements" Intelligence "defines" a designer (together with consciousness), for the reasons above. "Complexity" is in no known necessary relationship with designers or with the design process. In other words, while I can easily accept that humans are complex, I don't accept that that's the reason why they are designers. Again, computers are complex, but they are not designers, because they are neither conscious nor intelligent. So, unless you can demonstrate a necessary relationship between compelxity and the capacity to design, your argument about complexity is not valid. "If, as you state above, we don’t know what it is about humans that allows us to design (and I would argue that your specifying consciousness is even a step too far, based on your statements) that how can you say that the designer is intelligent?" Let's put it that way: we know that the subjective events of consciousness and intelligence, as defined by direct subjective perception, are always associated to the process of design in humans. But we don't know how that process originates in consciousness and intelligence, and least of all how it succeeds in imparting a functional order to matter which could never be obtained through necessity and/or randomness. Is that clear? Many things are perceived, but not understood. That does not make them less real. The inferred designer of biological information is supposed to be conscious and intelligent for the same reasons. There is no reason, as previously stated, to suppose that it need be complex.gpuccio
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
10:19 AM
10
10
19
AM
PDT
ribczynski: we are maybe nearer to an understanding now, but there are still problems. Patrick has already underlined the main point, but I will add some comment. I will no more call Dembski into the discussion, but nothing will change, because I completely agree with his scientifical points. Let's speak of CSI in human artifacts, first of all. We have undeniable facts: human artifacts exhibit CSI, and nothing else in nature (with the only exception of biological information) seems to share that property. Humans have been "outputing" that CSI daily, for millennia. That's part of our experience, therefore part of observable reality. If it is part of the "universe" is again a question of term definition. Let's go to matter and energy and physical law. First of all Patrick hit the nail saying "KNOWN physical law". I understand that modern scientism has accustomed the general public with the bizarre idea that science understands and defines all, and you seem to share that strange conviction, but we have to remember that our science is only "our" science, a mixture of theories about reality which have certainly some interesting value, but which could be very different in, say, 100 years. Our science is not absolute truth, and it does not explain everything. Not even about matter. Especially about matter. QM is at present the real core of our physics. It is, no doubt, a remarkable achievement of human thought. And yet, if you look at Wikipedia, "Interpretation of quantum mechanics", you will find that there are at least 12 different theories about its possible meaning (there is a table summerizing them). So much for scientific theories being "facts". I don't accept that we know what matter is, any more than we know what consciousness is. I don't accept that we can arrogantly decide what is "inside" the universe and what is "outside". I think we should more humbly look at known facts, and see how we can build reasonable maps of reality through them, and through a creative use of our inner resources. You say: "Even if he accepted the possibility that it did, the original CSI of the universe still has to have come from somewhere outside the universe — a supernatural source." Did the original matter and energy of the universe come from outside? Was the singularity which supposedly existed before the Big Bang "outside"? Is Dark Matter, whatever it may be, "outside"? How can we say? We have no idea of its possible nature. And yet physicists spend much of their time discussing about it. Are they epistemologically confused? No, I think you are. All that exists can be discussed and investigated by a scientific approach, provided that science has awareness of its instruments and of their limitations, and does not posit itself as the only instrument of knowledge. So, I make very simple assumptions: that reality cannot be explained entirely by our present knowledge, not even at the level which we like to call "material"; that there are parts of reality, like consciousness, design, etc, which are at present completely outside the instruments of description, least of all understanding, of known physical laws; that these things are just the same observables, and therefore part of our empirical treasure; that no one can impose, at a scientific level, any arbitrary notion of what is material or immaterial, inside or outside the universe, natural or supernatural. For the nth time, we should be interested in what is real and exists, and in the quality of our maps of reality. What Dembski and ID state is that biological information (and therefore, if you want, life, but the object of ID is biological information, not life, so please be precise in your affirmations) cannot arise "only" by means of necessity (according to known physical laws), or as an effect of randomness, or as an effect of any known mixture of the two. It cannot, because it exhibits CSI. The same is true for human artifacts. We call "design" the process through which humans output CSI in the external world. We don't know how it happens, if it comes from inside or outside any concievable entity, if it will ever be understood in terms of laws, be they physical or not. We just don't know. Still, we see it happen all the time, and we, being humans, give a name to whar we see: "design" to the process, "designer" to the conscious intelligent being who originates it. For biological information, we infer a similar process, but as we suppose that humans were not around 3,5 billion years ago, we infer that some other conscious intelligent agent can be the origin of that set of CSI. Period. You can like it or not, but it is a scientific theory. Completely empirical, completely consistent. Is it true? You know my point, scientific theories are never "true". They are, when they are good, "best explanations", or at least "explanations". And ID is not only the best explanation. It is, at present, the only one we have.gpuccio
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
09:59 AM
9
09
59
AM
PDT
gpuccio Looking back, my post was rather poorly written. Allow me to try again. "Human consciousness is the subject of human intelligence and the cause of human design, obviously" Why should this be obvious? Seems like a rather large leap of faith to me. "I had stated that “we don’t know which properties of human consciousness allows us to generate new functional complexity” In other words, we (intelligent conscious beings) can generate new CSI, while machines can’t. ... Intelligence is a property of consciousness" But, if we don't know what properties of human consciousness allow us to generate CSI, and, as you state, intelligence is a property of human consciousness, we don't know if intelligence is one of the properties needed to generate CSI. Therefore, is the I in ID unwarranted? "Are you conflating intelligence with CSI? That’s a very strange thing to do. ... Is that clear?" No I'm not, and yes it is. "ID acknowledges human design as a causal fact (it is observable that human designers design things which exhibit the property of CSI) but does not give any judgment of how or why the human designer is capable of creating CSI." It certainly credits intelligence as a how and/or why. That is something that, if your earlier statements are correct, is conflicting with your current statements. "Since when ‘natural’ has come to signify ‘not human’? I have witnesses many abuses of the word “natural”, but this really surprises me." Indeed, it surprises me too. But it seems to be an idea in constant use on this site, hence my use of it here. But it is really beside the point. "That’s correct: if we could not observe the fact of human design, both objectively and subjectively, we would probably not be here to discuss. But that does not mean that it is easy to understand design, in other words to have a good theory of what it is, of its properties and laws, etc. That was exactly my point." And that is exactly me point. IDers seem to transfer one of the properties of humans (intelligence) to a designer, but choose not to transfer other properties (complexity) and they have no basis for such a claim, as you make clear from your earlier statements. It seems to me that the property of intelligence is given based on the human ability to design and the presumed association between the two. If, as you state above, we don't know what it is about humans that allows us to design (and I would argue that your specifying consciousness is even a step too far, based on your statements) that how can you say that the designer is intelligent?Winston Macchi
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
09:29 AM
9
09
29
AM
PDT
The claim is that CSI contained within OUR biological system cannot be generated by matter and energy operating according to KNOWN physical law. Nor does OUR biological system allow for instances of intermediate probability to produce macro-evolution based entirely upon none-foresighted mechanisms and no intelligence involved at the OOL. This says nothing of the nature of the intelligence nor whether any other form of intelligence could evolve elsewhere in this universe based upon different parameters. Seriously, show us exactly how you can take the results of the Explanatory Filter and then connect that to ANY source. If you could conceive a reliable method we'd be more than happy. But I know you cannot do that; other tools/methods outside of the EF are necessary. The only reason ID opponents like yourself make this assertion is so they can redefine ID at whim in order to make theological/philosophical arguments.Patrick
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
09:03 AM
9
09
03
AM
PDT
Patrick wrote:
Bill wears many hats: philosopher, scientist/mathematician, and theologian... And, yes, I have criticized Bill since in his books he sometimes switches hats without directly letting the reader he just did so, which can create confusion.
Patrick, This is not a case of hat-switching. Dembski makes the scientific claim that CSI cannot be generated by matter and energy operating according to physical law. If that's true then it follows, scientifically, that the CSI we now see in the universe was either present at the beginning or inserted over time. If we assume that the CSI was present at the beginning, then the origin of life by blind, physical processes is no longer ruled out. But Dembski clearly does make the claim that life cannot have originated that way. Even if he accepted the possibility that it did, the original CSI of the universe still has to have come from somewhere outside the universe -- a supernatural source. He takes the other approach and insists that his principle of CSI conservation precludes the origin of life by purely physical means. That means that insertions must be the source of CSI. But any insertions of CSI must originate from a non-physical source, according to Dembski's original scientific claim. (I originally wrote "Dembski's original scientific clam", which, if it existed, would surely be an Internet phenomenon by now.) One way or another, his idea as science demands a source of CSI outside of the universe.ribczynski
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
08:41 AM
8
08
41
AM
PDT
Dembski believes that CSI cannot be produced by matter and energy acting according to physical law. It comes from Beyond.
Dembski believes that as a philosopher/theologian. He cannot justify that as a mathematician, nor does he attempt to do so. Never mind that there are ID proponents who would disagree with some of Dembski's beliefs as a philosopher/theologian.Patrick
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
08:04 AM
8
08
04
AM
PDT
Sola Raison wrote:
gpuccio while I often admire your steadfast resistance to the men with empty chests...
Sola Raison, I think the phrase you're looking for is "men without chests". In any case, The Abolition of Man is way overrated. gpuccio, Substitute 'physical' for 'material' and 'natural' if you insist. My point remains the same: Dembski believes that CSI cannot be produced by matter and energy acting according to physical law. It comes from Beyond. Gravity is physical. The source of CSI, according to Dembski, is not. That is tantamount to saying that the ultimate source of CSI is supernatural, in the generally recognized sense of the word.ribczynski
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
07:57 AM
7
07
57
AM
PDT
Bill wears many hats: philosopher, scientist/mathematician, and theologian. While there is obviously some overlap I would think people should by now know how to separate statements made from those distinct disciplines. And, yes, I have criticized Bill since in his books he sometimes switches hats without directly letting the reader he just did so, which can create confusion.Patrick
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
07:42 AM
7
07
42
AM
PDT
ribczynski --If the multiverse provides evidence for heaven, . . . Are you conceding it might? :-)tribune7
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
07:37 AM
7
07
37
AM
PDT
Sola Raison: I had not yet read your post when I wrote my previous answers. I hope I have clarified enough how much I dislike the concept of "natural" and so on. It is so ambiguous that it seems only to be useful when one wants to increase the level of confusion. I just wanted to affirm that, if one does not restrict "nature" to a reductionist intepretation (materialism), and therefore does not start with a dogmatic assumption in the investigation of reality, there is no reason to consider human intellect as "less natural" than, say, a stone. Both things abound (I was writing "in nature", but I wiil write instead:) around us! :-) But I think we probably agree on most things. I just try to avoid being cornered by a wrong use of language made by others to support inconsistent views.gpuccio
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
07:33 AM
7
07
33
AM
PDT
ribczynski: Let's do ourselves a favor: let's try not to use the word "nature", or at least not to use it with ever new meanings. Now you are using "natural" as "material", and "supernatural" as "immaterial". It's impossible to discuss this way. Are energy, forces, gravity, "innatural", just because they are not "material"? I do you define "material"? Photons have no mass: are they "immaterial"? Are they "innatural" or "supernatural"? You say: "Dembski’s thesis depends on the idea that the human mind (or at the very least, any part of the human mind that is creative) is actually immaterial." Having never read in detail Dembski's theological work, I have to restrain myself here to his work about ID. I don't remember any discussion about "necessary immateriality" in it. If I am wrong, please correct me. Coming back to me, I have always affirmed that human consciousness is transcendental, but that's my philosophical view of it. It is not necessary for ID to believe such a thing. Indeed, as I have tried to affirm many times here, it is not necessary to suppose anything about the designer (both of biological beings and of human artifacts), out of its simple existence (which is an observed fact for humans, and an inference in the other case). ID just affirms an observed causal relationship between human artifacts exhibiting CSI and human designers, and infers a similar kind of causation for biological information, on the basis of the formal fact of the presence of CSI in both cases, and only in those two cases. If you want to define "nature" as anything which does not contain designers, then please yourself. For me, "nature", "natural" and "supernatural" are just useless, often dangerous words. We are interested in reality and in our maps of it: whatever exists is real, and should be considered in our maps.gpuccio
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
07:25 AM
7
07
25
AM
PDT
Winston Macchi: I can't understand well your last post (@33). You say: "Does that include intelligence? Is then the I in ID unwarranted?" What do you mean? For me it's simple. Human consciousness is the subject of human intelligence and the cause of human design, obviously. I had stated that "we don’t know which properties of human consciousness allows us to generate new functional complexity" In other words, we (intelligent conscious beings) can generate new CSI, while machines can't. Are you conflating intelligence with CSI? That's a very strange thing to do. Intelligence is a property of consciousness, while CSI is a property of objective information. Is that clear? You say: "But one of the basis of ID is judging human design, " Why do you say that? ID acknowledges human design as a causal fact (it is observable that human designers design things which exhibit the property of CSI) but does not give any judgment of how or why the human designer is capable of creating CSI. We just observe that happening. That does not mean we know how it happens. You say: "indeed, is judging that because ‘natural’ methods cannot make what humans make" Since when 'natural' has come to signify 'not human'? I have witnesses many abuses of the word "natural", but this really surprises me. You say: "meaning they only exist because they were designed" Who exists bevause was designed? Humans? What has that to do with ID? ID says that objects exhibiting CSI are designed: that is true of my computer, of a ant, of you. And it has nothing to do with "existence". It means that the special configuration of information we observe is a sign of design. You say: "we can infer that, because natural methods cannot make us (so say the ID proponents) that design must be the answer" Perhaps you can infer that. I would never make such a meaningless inference. You say: "The only reason design comes into the picture is because on human design" That's correct: if we could not observe the fact of human design, both objectively and subjectively, we would probably not be here to discuss. But that does not mean that it is easy to understand design, in other words to have a good theory of what it is, of its properties and laws, etc. That was exactly my point. You say: "Indeed, if you don’t judge off of human design, you have nothing else to work with." Again, although what you say is rather confused, you seem to conflate "observing" design with "judging" it, in the sense of understanding its nature. Perhaps I should mention that, in your previous post, you seemed to conflate human complexity (the undeniable presence of CSI in human genome, for instance), with human consciousness (a subjectively observable empirical fact) and intelligence (a property of human consciousness, both subjectively and objectively observable). That's why I wrote: "We don’t really know what in humans makes them capable of generating new CSI so easily and in such an abundance (just by talking or writing, or creating new knowledge)."gpuccio
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
07:10 AM
7
07
10
AM
PDT
gpuccio while I often admire your steadfast resistance to the men with empty chests and the willingness, in contrast to the darwinists, to evaluate the logical basis of claims and assertions. but I would call your attention to the fact that human designers are NOT natural. the latent desires of the chance worshippers to deny the exceptionalism of living things (which after all are miracles of design and not tiny machines or turbines or self-replicating automatons) aside, we know that all life is designed because of it's inherent complexity. thus the distinction between 'natural' designers and 'un-natural' designers (or chance) is a category error: there is no 'undesigned'.... Too often we cede this ground to those who hold that All phenomena may be explained without any sort of Recourse to something larger than themeselves. We Do not have the same initial axioms that are held by Secularist design deniers, so let's not equivocate.Sola Raison
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
07:04 AM
7
07
04
AM
PDT
gpuccio wrote:
Before putting words into Dembski’s mouth you should maybe first try to understand him.
gpuccio, You are the one who has failed to understand Dembski's position. Dembski claims that human knowledge does not violate his principle because the CSI comes from the human intellect, which transcends nature. Dembski's thesis depends on the idea that the human mind (or at the very least, any part of the human mind that is creative) is actually immaterial. That is one way in which Dembski's ideas necessarily invoke the supernatural, despite the denials of ID supporters. There is another way, as well: If CSI cannot be generated by purely natural means, then all of the CSI present in nature must ultimately have come from outside -- in other words, from the supernatural. Since Dembski claims that life itself is an instance of CSI, where else could the CSI have come from 3.5 billion years ago?ribczynski
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
06:50 AM
6
06
50
AM
PDT
ribczynski (@31): Before putting words into Dembski's mouth you should maybe first try to understand him. Dembski has never stated "that what he calls ‘complex specified information’, or ‘CSI’, cannot be generated by purely natural processes". Do you mean that human deigners are not "natural"? Or that Dembski does not believe that human are the designers of human artifacts? Or do you just argue for the sake of it? You say, of Barry: "not realizing that his own claim — that God is utterly simple — runs afoul of Dembski’s need for God to be the ultimate source of CSI in the world". You are the only one who seems not to realize something here. For the relationship between a simple God (or a simple transcendental consciousness) and CSI, please check my previous post here (#32), or one of the many where I debated the question in other threads, answering to you, if I remember well. And I don't know exactly Dembski's theological positions, but I know that he personally believes that the designer of biological information is God, and I think very likely that he conceives the transcendent God as simple. But I certainly don't want to put words into his mouth...gpuccio
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
06:38 AM
6
06
38
AM
PDT
We see them as a creation of “human consciousness”, but we don’t know which properties of human consciousness allows us to generate new functional complexity.
Does that include intelligence? Is then the I in ID unwarranted?
You cannot easily judge the only observable example of functional CSI generation (design), which is human design.
But one of the basis of ID is judging human design, indeed, is judging that because 'natural' methods cannot make what humans make (meaning they only exist because they were designed) we can infer that, because natural methods cannot make us (so say the ID proponents) that design must be the answer. The only reason design comes into the picture is because on human design. Indeed, if you don't judge off of human design, you have nothing else to work with.Winston Macchi
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
06:34 AM
6
06
34
AM
PDT
Winston Macchi: The "simplicity" of God in many (but not all) religious philosophies is a cognitive requirement: God is concieved as simple because he transcends phenomena. Complexity is inherent in phenomena. An uncaused cause (the only reasonable answer to the infinite regress of phenomenological causation) is more easily conceived as simple, or at least as undefinable on the simplicity-complexity axis (being undefinable is one of the inherent consequences of transcendence). You cannot easily judge the only observable example of functional CSI generation (design), which is human design. We don't really know what in humans makes them capable of generating new CSI so easily and in such an abundance (just by talking or writing, or creating new knowledge). So, when you say: "We don’t see complex things (airplanes, computers, etc) forming naturally, we only see them as a creation of complexity, indeed greater complexity " that's just your unwarranted assumption. We see them as a creation of "human cosnciousness", but we don't know which properties of human consciousness allows us to generate new functional complexity. I have often argued that we have no evidence that complex machines can really generate new CSI, and not simply transform the CSI they receive as input. Dembski's work (with Marks) about the conservation of information supports that view. I have often argued that the conscious component is indispensable to generate new CSI. So, we have no evidence that CSI is "a creation of complexity, indeed greater complexity". If that were the case, CSI should always stay the same or decrease. Where does human knowledge come from, then?gpuccio
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
06:14 AM
6
06
14
AM
PDT
Winston Macchi wrote:
Along the same line, one of the arguments that keeps coming up around here is something along the lines of: We don’t see complex things (airplanes, computers, etc) forming naturally, we only see them as a creation of intelligence - therefore, other complex things (us) must have been created by an intelligence. However, that could be stated a different way, as in: We don’t see complex things (airplanes, computers, etc) forming naturally, we only see them as a creation of complexity, indeed greater complexity - therefore, other complex things (us) must have been created by an even greater complexity.
Hi Winston, You've just described Dembski's argument, more or less: that what he calls 'complex specified information', or 'CSI', cannot be generated by purely natural processes, and that any natural object containing CSI must therefore have received it from an entity with equal or greater CSI. It's interesting that Barry defends Dembski's ideas while not realizing that his own claim -- that God is utterly simple -- runs afoul of Dembski's need for God to be the ultimate source of CSI in the world.ribczynski
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
06:13 AM
6
06
13
AM
PDT
tribune7 wrote:
Actually, you can argue it provides evidence for Biblical literalism. Physics may one day show that one these dimensions where our natural laws don’t apply is a place called Heaven. And it may one day show that another of these dimensions is a place called the Other Place.
If the multiverse provides evidence for heaven, it provides evidence for every other mythical otherworld ever concocted by humans. Get out the mead horns, boys. We're going to Valhalla!ribczynski
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT
Sal Gal, Now that you've explained your position further like gpuccio I'd say I mostly* agree with you. There is of course a level of bias inherent to the ID movement (BTW, I would not conflate ID theory with ID movement) and I was not trying to claim otherwise. In fact I'd say we're pretty open about it since we list our agenda on the About page. But personally in other ways I'd say it's been purposely limited since a) most of the major ID proponents started out as Darwinists before the data convinced them otherwise and b) the leaders who are also Christians have not pushed for an adoption of an ID-compatible hypothesis to fit their view and instead prefer the "big tent". But my main point was that many supporters of specific models are pushing an agenda yet at the same time seem to want to claim to be unbiased practitioners of science. *I say mostly since not all instances of fine-tuned parameters are limited to variables within cosmological models (like the energy density in some models required to make the universe flat). Some are observables like the ratio of electromagnetic force to gravity, proton decay rate, the velocity of light, etc.Patrick
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
05:56 AM
5
05
56
AM
PDT
You know, the multiverse concept does not falsify ID :-) Actually, you can argue it provides evidence for Biblical literalism. Physics may one day show that one these dimensions where our natural laws don't apply is a place called Heaven. And it may one day show that another of these dimensions is a place called the Other Place.tribune7
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
05:21 AM
5
05
21
AM
PDT
That’s an interesting double standard. In your world God gets credit for being utterly simple, despite the complexity of his creation, but materialist theories get labeled as complex, regardless of the sparseness of their assumptions, if they entail the multiverse.
I agree. Along the same line, one of the arguments that keeps coming up around here is something along the lines of: We don't see complex things (airplanes, computers, etc) forming naturally, we only see them as a creation of intelligence - therefore, other complex things (us) must have been created by an intelligence. However, that could be stated a different way, as in: We don't see complex things (airplanes, computers, etc) forming naturally, we only see them as a creation of complexity, indeed greater complexity - therefore, other complex things (us) must have been created by an even greater complexity.Winston Macchi
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
05:18 AM
5
05
18
AM
PDT
Sal Gal--Historically, defense of materialism had absolutely nothing to do with the appearance of multiverses in physics. It's not something I'd argue with but the observation that those who seriously consider the multiverse are treated respectfully while those who seriously consider ID are treated with scorn and persecution should make one go hmmmm. And for the record there is nothing wrong with seriously considering multiverses.tribune7
November 29, 2008
November
11
Nov
29
29
2008
05:12 AM
5
05
12
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply