Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Now Jerry Coyne doubts the historical existence of Jesus Christ

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Jerry Coyne has written a post in which he states that he is inclined to believe that Jesus never existed, although he hasn’t made up his mind yet. And on what does Coyne base his tentative opinion? An article in the Huffington Post by a biopsychologist named Nigel Barber, a self-published book by a systems engineer, Michael Paulkovich, which Coyne admits he hasn’t read, and finally, another book which he hasn’t read, written by atheist activist Richard Carrier, who has a Ph.D. in ancient history, but who (judging from his Wikipedia biography) has no teaching or research position at any accredited institution. [Update: according to his C.V., Carrier teaches classes at the Center for Inquiry Institute Online (a think tank founded in 1987) using a Moodle interface, and is also an online instructor with Partners for Secular Activism. As far as I can tell, the only accredited program offered by CFI is an Ed.M. program in Science and the Public, in partnership with the Graduate School of Education of the University at Buffalo. However, Carrier does not teach this course.]

I wonder what Coyne would think of a critique of Darwin’s theory of evolution, written by a biopsychologist, a systems engineer and finally, a prominent evolution critic with a Ph.D. in biology, who had never taught the subject at any university. Not much, I think. I find it odd, then, that he is prepared to set aside the opinions of all reputable historians with relevant expertise in the field, on the question of whether Jesus existed.

Writes Coyne:

I have to say that I’m coming down on the “mythicist” side, simply because I don’t see any convincing historical records for a Jesus person. Everything written about him was decades after his death, and, as far as I can see, there is no contemporaneous record of a Jesus-person’s existence (what “records” exist have been debunked as forgeries). Yet there should have been some evidence, especially if Jesus had done what the Bible said. But even if he was simply an apocalyptic preacher, as [scholar Bart] Ehrman insists, there should have been at least a few contemporaneous records. Based on their complete absence, I am for the time being simply a Jesus agnostic. But I don’t pretend to be a scholar in this area, or even to have read a lot of the relevant literature.

Actually, we have excellent documentary evidence for the existence of Jesus from two historians writing in the first century: Josephus and Tacitus.

Josephus (A.D. 37 – c.100) may have been born a few years after the death of Jesus, but he was a personal eyewitness of the execution of Jesus’ brother, James (who may have actually been a half-brother or cousin of Jesus), in 62 A.D. As for Tacitus (c. 56 A.D. – 117 A.D.), he is considered to have been one of the greatest Roman historians, and as a Senator, he was likely to have had access to official Roman documents relating to Jesus’ trial, which took place about 80 years before he wrote his Annals, which states that Jesus was crucified during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius, and at the hands of the procurator, Pontius Pilate (Book 15, chapter 44).

The evidence from Josephus

Atheist Paul Tobin, creator of the skeptical Website The Rejection of Pascal’s Wager, has written an excellent article, The Death of James, in which he argues for the historical trustworthiness of Josephus’ description of the execution of James, whom he refers to as “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ”:

The timing of the incident, the interregnum between Festus and Albinus, allows us to date this quite accurately to the summer of 62 CE. [1] Our confidence in the historicity of this account is bolstered by the fact that it was probably an eye witness account. Josephus mentioned in his Autobiography that he left Jerusalem for Rome when he was twenty-six years old. He date of birth was most likely around 37 CE. So at the time of James’ execution, the twenty five year old Josephus was a priest in Jerusalem.

The atheist amateur historian Tim O’Neill has written several blog posts rebutting the arguments of modern-day skeptics who deny the historicity of Jesus. O’Neill has no theological ax to grind here: indeed, he declares that he “would have no problem at all embracing the idea that no historical Jesus existed if someone could come up with an argument for this that did not depend at every turn on strained readings.” O’Neill exposes the shoddy scholarship of these “Mythers” (as he calls them) in a savagely critical review of “Jesus-Myther” David Fitzgerald’s recent book, Nailed: Ten Christian Myths that Show Jesus Never Existed at All. In the course of his lengthy review (dated May 28, 2011), O’Neill summarizes the evidence for Jesus’ historicity from the works of Josephus (bold highlighting mine – VJT):

As several surveys of the academic literature have shown, the majority of scholars now accept that there was an original mention of Jesus in Antiquities XVIII.3.4 and this includes the majority of Jewish and non-Christian scholars, not merely “wishful apologists”. This is partly because once the more obvious interpolated phrases are removed, the passage reads precisely like what Josephus would be expected to write and also uses characteristic language found elsewhere in his works. But it is also because of the 1970 discovery of what seems to be a pre-interpolation version of Josephus’ passage, uncovered by Jewish scholar Schlomo Pines of Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

Professor Pines found an Arabic paraphrase of the Tenth Century historian Agapius which quotes Josephus’ passage, but not in the form we have it today. This version, which seems to draw on a copy of Josephus’ original, uninterpolated text, says that Jesus was believed by his followers to have been the Messiah and to have risen from the dead, which means in the original Josephus was simply reporting early Christian beliefs about Jesus regarding his supposed status and resurrection. This is backed further by a Syriac version cited by Michael the Syrian which also has the passage saying “he was believed to be the Messiah”. The evidence now stacks up heavily on the side of the partial authenticity of the passage, meaning there is a reference to Jesus as a historical person in precisely the writer we would expect to mention him…

The second mention is made in passing in a passage where Josephus is detailing an event of some significance and one which he, as a young man, would have witnessed himself.

In 62 AD, the 26 year old Josephus was in Jerusalem, having recently returned from an embassy to Rome. He was a young member of the aristocratic priestly elite which ruled Jerusalem and were effectively rulers of Judea, though with close Roman oversight and only with the backing of the Roman procurator in Caesarea. But in this year the procurator Porcius Festus died while in office and his replacement, Lucceius Albinus, was still on his way to Judea from Rome. This left the High Priest, Hanan ben Hanan (usually called Ananus), with a freer rein that usual. Ananus executed some Jews without Roman permission and, when this was brought to the attention of the Romans, Ananus was deposed.

This was a momentous event and one that the young Josephus, as a member of the same elite as the High Priest, would have remembered well. But what is significant is what he says in passing about the executions that that triggered the deposition of the High Priest:

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so (the High Priest) assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Messiah, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned.

…A major part of the problem with most manifestations of the Myther thesis is that its proponents desperately want it to be true because they want to undermine Christianity. And any historical analysis done with one eye on an emotionally-charged ideological agenda is usually heading for trouble from the start… Their biases against Christianity blind Mythers to the fact that they are not arriving at conclusions because they are the best or most parsimonious explanation of the evidence, but merely because they fit their agenda.

The overwhelming majority of scholars, Christian, non-Christian, atheist, agnostic or Jewish, accept there was a Jewish preacher as the point of origin for the Jesus story simply because that makes the most sense of all the evidence. The contorted and contrived lengths that Fitzgerald and his ilk have to resort to shows exactly how hard it is to sustain the idea that no such historical preacher existed. Personally, as an atheist amateur historian myself, I would have no problem at all embracing the idea that no historical Jesus existed if someone could come up with an argument for this that did not depend at every turn on strained readings, ad hoc explanations, imagined textual interpolations and fanciful suppositions.

It is sometimes alleged by “Jesus-Mythers” such as David Fitzgerald that both passages in Josephus are later interpolations, because the third-century Christian Father Origen supposedly declared that Josephus made no mention of Jesus in his writings. O’Neill handily disposes of this canard:

Not content with ignoring inconvenient key counter-evidence, [Jesus-Myther] Fitzgerald is also happy to simply make things up.  He talks about how the Second Century Christian apologist Origen does not mention the Antiquities XVII.3.4 reference to Jesus (which is true, but not surprising) and then claims “Origen even quotes from Antiquities of the Jews in order to prove the historical existence of John the Baptist, then adds that Josephus didn’t believe in Jesus, and criticises him for failing to mention Jesus in that book!” (p. 53)  Which might sound like a good argument to anyone who does not bother to check self-published authors’ citations.  But those who do will turn to Origen’s Contra Celsum I.4 and find the following:

Now this writer [Josephus], although not believing in Jesus as the Messiah, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was  “the brother of that Jesus who was called Messiah”,–the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice.

So Origen does not say Josephus “didn’t believe in Jesus”, just that he did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (which supports the Arabic and Syriac evidence on the pre-interpolation version of Antiquities XVII.3.4) And far from criticising Josephus “for failing to mention Jesus in that book”, Origen actually quotes Josephus directly doing exactly that – the phrase “αδελφος Ιησου του λεγομενου Χριστου” (the brother of that Jesus who was called Messiah”) is word for word the phrase used by Josephus in his other mention of Jesus, found at Antiquities XX.9.1.  And he does not refer to and quote Josephus mentioning Jesus just in Contra Celsum I.4, but he also does so twice more: in Contra Celsum II:13 and in Commentarium in evangelium Matthaei X.17.  It is hard to say if this nonsense claim of Fitzgerald’s is mere incompetence or simply a lie.  I will be charitable and put it down to another of this amateur’s bungles.

Tim O’Neill’s more recent online article, The Jesus Myth Theory: A Response to David Fitzgerald (December 1, 2013) is also well worth reading. It is a devastating take-down of the second-rate scholarship of Jesus-Mythers.

The evidence from the Roman historian Tacitus

Wikipedia provides a balanced overview of the evidence for Jesus’ historicity in its article, Tacitus on Christ, from which I have quoted the following excerpts:

Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate to be both authentic, and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[5][6][7] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now “firmly established” that Tacitus provides a non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[8]

In terms of an overall context, historian Ronald Mellor has stated that the Annals is “Tacitus’s crowning achievement” which represents the “pinnacle of Roman historical writing”.[9] The passage is also of historical value in establishing three separate facts about Rome around AD 60: (i) that there were a sizable number of Christians in Rome at the time, (ii) that it was possible to distinguish between Christians and Jews in Rome, and (iii) that at the time pagans made a connection between Christianity in Rome and its origin in Roman Judea.[10][11]…

…Scholars generally consider Tacitus’s reference to be genuine and of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records.[5][6][7][41]

Van Voorst states that “of all Roman writers, Tacitus gives us the most precise information about Christ”.[40] John Dominic Crossan considers the passage important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified, and states: “That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus… agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact.”[52]

…Scholars have also debated the issue of hearsay in the reference by Tacitus. Charles Guignebert argued that “So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless”.[56] R. T. France states that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he had heard through Christians.[57] However, Paul R. Eddy has stated that as Rome’s preeminent historian, Tacitus was generally known for checking his sources and was not in the habit of reporting gossip.[23] Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: “Tacitus’s report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius’s reign.”[58]

References

5. Jesus and His Contemporaries: Comparative Studies by Craig A. Evans. 2001. ISBN 0-391-04118-5 page 42.
6. Mercer Dictionary of the Bible by Watson E. Mills and Roger Aubrey Bullard. 2001. ISBN 0-86554-373-9 page 343.
7. Pontius Pilate in History and Interpretation by Helen K. Bond. 2004. ISBN 0-521-61620-4 page xi.
8. The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition by Paul Eddy and Gregory Boyd. Baker Academic, 2007. ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 page 127.
9. Tacitus’ Annals by Ronald Mellor. Oxford University Press. 2010. ISBN 0-19-515192-5 page 23.
10. Beginning from Jerusalem by James D. G. Dunn. William. B. Eerdmans, 2008. ISBN 0-8028-3932-0 pages 56-57.
11. Antioch and Rome: New Testament cradles of Catholic Christianity by Raymond Edward Brown, John P. Meier 1983. ISBN 0-8091-2532-3 page 99.
23. The Jesus legend: a case for the historical reliability of the synoptic gospels by Paul R. Eddy, et al. 2007. ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 pages 181-183.
40. Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence by Robert E. Van Voorst. William. B. Eerdmans, 2000. pp. 39- 53.
41. Tradition and Incarnation: Foundations of Christian Theology by William L. Portier 1993 ISBN 0-8091-3467-5 page 263.
52. Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography by John Dominic Crossan. HarperOne, 1995. ISBN 0-06-061662-8 page 145.
53. Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament by F.F. Bruce. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974. p. 23.
56. Jesus by Charles Guignebert. University Books, New York, 1956, p. 13.
57. France, RT (1986). Evidence for Jesus (Jesus Library). Trafalgar Square Publishing. pp. 19-20. ISBN 0-340-38172-8.
58. Ehrman p. 212

Who is Michael Paulkovich, anyway?

Michael Paulkovich, a systems engineer, is the recent author of a book called No Meek Messiah, excerpts from which can be found on this Web page. The following excerpts should put to rest any notion that Paulkovich has any credibility on historical matters (emphases are mine):

In No Meek Messiah I provide a list of 126 writers who should have recorded something of Jesus, with exhaustive references… [I was most amused to see Apollonius of Tyana, Epictetus, Petronius, Plotinus and Tiberius described as “historians” in Paulkovich’s list – VJT.]

Within a year after the decree by [Emperor] Theodosius [in 391 A.D.], crazed Christian monks of Nitria destroy the majestic Alexandrian Library largely because philosophy and science are taught there — not the Bible…

Christianity was made the only legal cult of the empire, and for the next 1500 years, good Christians would murder all non-Christians they could find by the tens of millions.

Early Christians believed all necessary knowledge was in the Bible and thus closed down schools, burned books, forbade teaching philosophy and destroyed libraries. The Jesus person portrayed in the Bible taught that “devils” and “sin” cause illness, and thus for some 1700 years good Christians ignored science and medicine to perform exorcisms on the ill…

Jesus has nothing against stealing, as he instructs his apostles to pinch a horse and a donkey from their rightful owner…

This Jesus character speaks highly of father Yahweh’s genocidal tantrums in Matthew 11:20-24…

Enough said?

Summary

People who are experts in one field are capable of appalling lapses of judgement when assessing the evidence in fields outside their own. By any objective criteria, there is abundant historical evidence that Jesus existed. Professor Coyne should have the grace to acknowledge this fact, and admit his error. But I’m not holding my breath.

NOTE: Kairosfocus has written an excellent post titled, Jeff Shallit: “Surely the right analogy is Santa Claus to Jesus Christ. Both are mythical figures . . . ” — spectacular Fail at History 101 in which he presents two videos summarizing the evidence for the existence of an historical Jesus.

Comments
On the fallacy of Cliffordian evidentialism, esp. Saganian "extraordinary claims . . . " form, cf. here in context.kairosfocus
October 11, 2014
October
10
Oct
11
11
2014
02:28 AM
2
02
28
AM
PDT
Observe: http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/06/02/the-further-hyper-skepticism-stalling-our-conversation/kairosfocus
October 11, 2014
October
10
Oct
11
11
2014
02:26 AM
2
02
26
AM
PDT
PPS: Cf http://www.toughquestionsanswered.org/2012/12/17/is-there-ever-enough-evidence-for-the-hyper-skeptic/kairosfocus
October 11, 2014
October
10
Oct
11
11
2014
02:24 AM
2
02
24
AM
PDT
PS: Locke: >> Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 - 21, Eph 4:17 - 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 - 21, Jer. 2:13, Titus 2:11 - 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Text references added to document the sources of Locke's allusions and citations.] >>kairosfocus
October 11, 2014
October
10
Oct
11
11
2014
02:18 AM
2
02
18
AM
PDT
Roding: Please cf 123 - 125 above. Notice, Paul was the former leading opponent of the Christians, and went to the extreme of lynching and judicial murder on trumped up charges of blasphemy. If there were no conclusive evidence c 30 - 38 AD that Jesus existed, he would have known that and Stephen simply could not have bested the Freedmen's Synagogue in debates; where, Ac is known to be very good on fact claims and we have Paul himself in his own voice also speaking as the lead missionary for what he formerly persecuted to death. Whately's satire on Napoleon will be helpful. So, BTW is Cold Case Christianity -- which I have and have read. Again, the 101 vid here is a simple 1 hr or so investment, and the course following is helpful as are onward links. Remember, matters of fact are subject to moral evidence, requiring reasonably grounded confidence in credibility. Global or selective hyperskepticism immediately reduces to absurdity as HeKS has pointed out in brief, and as I argued at length here years ago (when to speak in such terms was vanishingly rare -- I find the silence over Simon Greenleaf in both Evidence and Testimony, in the hot Google linked debates among the so-called Skeptical community, amusingly revealing). Whately's satire on Napoleon has much to teach and further back, so does Locke's insightful observations from his section 5 of his intro to the Essay on Human Understanding. KFkairosfocus
October 11, 2014
October
10
Oct
11
11
2014
02:14 AM
2
02
14
AM
PDT
@Roding #129 If you go back and review my prior comments, references to what I say you are doing should be interpreted as statements about effects or consequences rather than motives. For example, when I said...
You are giving yourself an excuse for doubt by appeal to the sheer logical possibility of baseless, wildly implausible conspiracy theories, and this only because you think there might be significant implications if Jesus didn’t really live.
... I was not making a statement about your motives, but about what your style of reasoning was resulting in. In other words, by DOING X, for whatever reason you happen to be doing it, it has EFFECT Y. And when I say that you are being selectively hyper-skeptical, I am again making an objective assessment of what is going on with your reasoning. I don't necessarily think you're doing it to be dishonest. You may very well think it makes perfect sense. I'm trying to tell you that it doesn't make sense and that it's a recognized flaw in one's epistemological approach. I don't claim to be able to read your heart or mind, so please keep that in mind, along with my clarifications here, when you read my comments. HeKSHeKS
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
09:09 PM
9
09
09
PM
PDT
r. I think I’ll make this my last post be sure to get in the last word. that's important!Mung
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
08:58 PM
8
08
58
PM
PDT
Is it possible to be any more non-committal?
Annoying isn't it! The truth is I really don't know much about this stuff (I'm sure that much is obvious). I think I read about the Jesus myth idea a while back, and it seemed interesting - partly because it resonated with some of my own reservations and disconnects with the Bible when I read it more regularly in my younger days. But as Hek says it could be people just wanting to disprove an ideology they find uncomfortable, I can see that. But despite what others think, I really would be willing to look at both sides, and perhaps even read the book Cold Case that somebody recommended. On the other do I really want to make such a time commitment? (particularly when it takes time away from my real passion in life of playing music, which is definitely my spiritual practice!). But at the end of the day, maybe I'll still not have an opinion one way or the other. After all, why do I need to? (and why in this Internet everybody has to have an opinion on everything - what's wrong with "I don't know"?). As to all of Hek's long analysis of my motives and inner workings, well, that's just fascinating. I guess I asked for it since I did allude to some of Hek's belief systems and motives, but I think Hek you have paid me back in spades. I guess you know me better than myself! I don't really mind, although, although I wonder how it is possibly to accurate analyze another person's motives from a few exchanges on a blog (particularly as in my case I do like to "try on" different ideas and thoughts when I post and stir the pot a bit, I don't think there's much of the real "me" that comes through). I'm personally not sure it's a particularly effective method to win somebody over to your view of things (I know somebody who does this in real life and it definitely is not effective!) I think I'll make this my last post (and this blog entry is about to disappear into history anyway), but it's been a fun exchange, and it's nice we've been able to get it reasonably civil and polite and I'm grateful for that!roding
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
08:55 PM
8
08
55
PM
PDT
Well Roding, we likewise have to take into account that you are already a person of faith and these matters are very settled for you. We have our faith and you have your faith. Which one is most reasonable? Ours, of course. :) Join us.Mung
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
07:00 PM
7
07
00
PM
PDT
@Roding #126
I think I get what you are saying, but it feels like a bit of a rhetorical trick. I think I’d rather consider what’s on hand rather than hypotheticals. I guess it feels like I’m being cornered in agreeing or not agreeing to something. I like to take my time to think and consider things.
I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't take time to think and consider things. What I'm trying to do is figure out whether there is a threshold of evidence that it is even possible to meet that would convince you of the relatively mundane fact that a Jewish man named Jesus lived in the first century and was a religious teacher who ended up starting/inspiring a religious movement. If you are being trapped into anything, it is only in to giving some indication that you might be remotely reasonable and open-minded, or, possibly, that you are neither. Understand, this thread is about the bare existence of Jesus, not the truth of all Christian claims. Skepticism over the actual existence of Jesus as a real human is unanimously considered to be entirely without warrant by serious historians, and the reasons given for skepticism over the mere existence of this man consist of the type of wild-eyed, implausible conspiracy theories that you mentioned, which could be applied with equal measure, and usually more, to everyone else who we accept was really alive on the earth during that time period.
Yes, I agree my list is a bit outlandish, but what is wrong with considering all the possibilities, even the ones that seem unlikely? That’s my process (I use it with my work too) – list all of the possibilities no matter how bizarre and extraordinary After all, isn’t what you are claiming as the truth quite extraordinary? So shouldn’t we work hard to rule out other possibilities.
What's wrong with considering them? Nothing. The problem arises when, after considering them, you don't recognize that they are extremely implausible conspiracy theories that are not even hinted at being correct by any evidence and that it is MUCH more reasonable to conclude, along with all serious historians, that the far more reasonable view, which is supported by a wealth of evidence, is that a man named Jesus really did live in the first century, act as a religious teacher and inspire a religious movement that came to be called Christianity.
I think I’m willing to consider it as a possibility, but could there be other explanations?
You think that you're willing to consider it as a possibility that the fact of people being willing to die terrible deaths rather than recant specific claims about a man they claimed to know and associate closely with over a period of years might be powerful evidence that that man really existed? Is it possible to be any more non-committal? Could there be other explanations other than this man's bare existence that could plausibly explain why people would be willing to die painful deaths rather than recant specific claims about him, such as that he was resurrected? Well, the options you've presented so far certainly don't qualify, do they? They may be logically possible, but they would be logically possible in relation to any person you choose out of all of history. That doesn't mean they're remotely plausible or that they provide sufficient basis to undercut Moral Certainty (the meaning of which I linked to earlier) about Jesus' existence.
I think there are good reasons to be skeptical of history. I don’t think history is neat and tidy and I’m sure the historical record for anything 2000 years or older is likely to be quite murky. But it’s a different matter as to whether Plato really existed then it is whether Jesus existed. If Plato didn’t exist, the implications aren’t that significant – his writings still carry their own weight. But of course if Jesus didn’t exist that has huge implications (of course the teachings might still be valued, just as with Plato). Does that make me hyperskeptial in wanting a higher standard of evidence for Jesus than Plato?
Yes, it makes you selectively hyper-skeptical about Jesus' existence because your skepticism derives from what you think the implications of his existence might be rather than from any principled epistemological approach, and because your doubt is not based on any positive evidence against his existence or even a lack of positive evidence for it. You are giving yourself an excuse for doubt by appeal to the sheer logical possibility of baseless, wildly implausible conspiracy theories, and this only because you think there might be significant implications if Jesus didn't really live. But really, his bare existence does not necessarily have any positive significant implications, since he could have lived but the grander claims about him could still be false. In reality, there are necessary significant implications only if he didn't exist, which is that Christianity is immediately cut off at the ankles, and THIS is what makes the Christ-Myth silliness so attractive to some people, so that they are willing to accept, through extreme credulity, any wildly implusible, unprecedented, baseless conspiracy theory that gives them any excuse whatsoever to doubt Jesus' existence, even though they would immediately dismiss these theories as being foolish, baseless and not warranting any belief if they were applied to anyone else.
If so, that’s fine, I have to be true to myself and what evidence I’m willing to accept.
Actually, what would be better to do is recognize that you're being selectively hyper-skeptical, recognize that this is not conducive to an intellectually-honest search for truth, and make an intellectual realignment so that you can examine the relevant evidence objectively.
But I have to take into account that you are already a person of faith and these matters are very settled for you.
Nothing is ever settled for me. And I have difficulty thinking of myself as "a person of faith". I have faith as per the Biblical definition of that word, but not according to the one that has become common in recent years, which amounts to "blind faith". I believe what I believe because I think it is the most reasonable thing to believe when all of the evidence is considered objectively. I'm a highly unemotional person and, as far as I can tell, I draw no emotional comfort from my belief ... or if I do it is so minimal that it would have no effect on the outcome of what I would consider to be reasonable. What might be referred to as the "warm and fuzzy" aspects of religion or belief simply don't enter my mind. Ultimately, I'm interested in what is true, or at least what it seems is most reasonable to believe is true.HeKS
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
06:39 PM
6
06
39
PM
PDT
The form of my question necessarily assumes that the people who made the claims and who were willing to die rather than recant actually existed. I’m asking you, IF that condition was true, would you agree that it constitutes powerful evidence that Jesus at least existed?
I think I get what you are saying, but it feels like a bit of a rhetorical trick. I think I'd rather consider what's on hand rather than hypotheticals. I guess it feels like I'm being cornered in agreeing or not agreeing to something. I like to take my time to think and consider things. Yes, I agree my list is a bit outlandish, but what is wrong with considering all the possibilities, even the ones that seem unlikely? That's my process (I use it with my work too) - list all of the possibilities no matter how bizarre and extraordinary After all, isn't what you are claiming as the truth quite extraordinary? So shouldn't we work hard to rule out other possibilities.
What you seem to be doing here is trying to avoid committing yourself to an admission that certain types of evidence could powerfully indicate the truth of Jesus existence even if they fall short of absolute proof. This is exactly the methodology of selective hyper-skepticism that I was talking about.
I think I'm willing to consider it as a possibility, but could there be other explanations? I know it's probably frustrating for you that I seem comfortable with ambiguity. It's quite possible on many matters I may never make my mind up and will always have doubts. I'm comfortable with that. Perhaps the reality is we cannot really reliably know the truth about early history. Perhaps I'll have a conversion experience and that will push me other one side or the other (it does seem that a good percentage of people come to faith not through an intellectual process, but via a spiritual/emotional path)
Who knows, the documents claimed to be eye-witness reports about any event in history could be forgeries attributed to people who never even existed. It could be, so why not reject everything?
I think there are good reasons to be skeptical of history. I don't think history is neat and tidy and I'm sure the historical record for anything 2000 years or older is likely to be quite murky. But it's a different matter as to whether Plato really existed then it is whether Jesus existed. If Plato didn't exist, the implications aren't that significant - his writings still carry their own weight. But of course if Jesus didn't exist that has huge implications (of course the teachings might still be valued, just as with Plato). Does that make me hyperskeptial in wanting a higher standard of evidence for Jesus than Plato? If so, that's fine, I have to be true to myself and what evidence I'm willing to accept. That's why I'm reluctant to agree or disagree. I want to figure these things out for myself, and not be cornered into answering one way or the other. But I have to take into account that you are already a person of faith and these matters are very settled for you. You have to consider too that for an agnostic it isn't that we are just looking at Christianity and atheism as just the two possibilities - far from it. Christianity is just one of many possible worldviews that need to be assessed. Sorry but you aren't only the game in town to think about!roding
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
04:46 PM
4
04
46
PM
PDT
PS: Note Whately's "excess of scepticism" terminology, which is close to "selective hyperskepticism," or Greenleaf's "the error of the skeptic."kairosfocus
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
03:21 PM
3
03
21
PM
PDT
F/N: Whately's satire on doubting the reality of Napoleon gives us a first class expose of the fallacious mindset involved in selective hyperskepticism regarding history and record that comes down to us. KFkairosfocus
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
03:13 PM
3
03
13
PM
PDT
Roding, There is much more "there" than you realise. First, the context is Jerusalem c 35 - 38 AD, and the summary (note the archaic Aramaic form for "Peter" Kepha) was the official outline witness of the church in creedal form, handed on as a solemn tradition in a predominantly Oral Culture where feats of memorisation and fidelity in transmission that we would deem astonishing were commonplace. That was the NORMAL way teachers passed down to students, for generations. Next, it was a statement of the chief witnesses, identifying the core circle of about twenty, including naming chief ones. These are the "go check them" witnesses in view c 55 AD, given in answer to a controversy in Corinth. Where, the chief witnesses (until 66 - 70) resided all along in the city that was both the main centre of the Church and of its then chief opponents. Where Paul was a Cilician Jew who was of the circle who lost the controversy with Stephen and engineered his lynching to silence him. So, he was familiar enough with the core gospel message and the want of an effective counter-argument other than the dungeon, fire and sword, from that time. So we have eyewitness lifetime testimony that could not be refuted by the leading opponents in their headquarters. Paul simply reduced it to writing c 55 AD and pointed right back to the core witnesses, go check them. Implication, I was the chief activist opponent and not only was I not able to overturn it but after engineering a lynching and leading in merciless havoc [no quarter lethal attacks] I was arrested personally by the living risen Lord, transforming my life. Solemn tradition handed down under circumstances like this is not mere hearsay. Recall, the need for consistent reasonable standards of warrant and the need to avoid selective hyperskepticism, which is inevitably self refuting and self undermining. It sounds clever to suggest that if one can doubt one can dismiss, but then when the consequences play out things take on a decidedly different colour. (Perhaps, you may wish to read here as well as do a Google Search.) And, to back all this up there was a stream of miracles and life transformations (which has not ceased down to today). I suggest that you work your way through this blog post (or at least the 101 vid), and you will find this additional video on the minimal facts revealing. KFkairosfocus
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
03:02 PM
3
03
02
PM
PDT
@Roding #117
Can you tell me whether or not you agree that if people who claimed to be close associates of Jesus for a period of years
I can think of there are several possibilities here: 1) The accounts where people claimed to know Jesus are wrong – neither the people making the claim or Jesus existed 2) The people making the claim existed and practiced a faith for which they were willing to die for, but the documents are inaccurate in portraying that they knew the founder of that faith 3) The accounts are accurate and these people really did know Jesus (who by implication existed) 4) People can delude themselves in thinking they knew a person when they really didn’t, even to the point of wanting to die for that person 5) Similar to 4, but the people making the claim lied about their association. 1,2,3 are all possible. 4 & 5 less so, but then given the extreme nature of cultic behavior, perhaps it is not beyond the realm of possibility. After all do not followers of some religions today claim to have a close relationship with its founder even though they have not met them in any material sense? So I don’t disagree or agree, I would say I don’t know enough yet to answer the question.
Roding, look at my full question again rather than your clipped form of it:
Can you tell me whether or not you agree that IF people who claimed to be close associates of Jesus for a period of years (i.e. people who were in a position to know the truth) were willing to die painful deaths rather than recant their faith in him and his resurrection, [THEN] this is powerful evidence that Jesus at least existed?
The form of my question necessarily assumes that the people who made the claims and who were willing to die rather than recant actually existed. I'm asking you, IF that condition was true, would you agree that it constitutes powerful evidence that Jesus at least existed? Now, let's look at your options for relevance to my question:
1) The accounts where people claimed to know Jesus are wrong – neither the people making the claim or Jesus existed
Not relevant since it assumes the condition is false when I'm asking what you would conclude if the condition was true.
2) The people making the claim existed and practiced a faith for which they were willing to die for, but the documents are inaccurate in portraying that they knew the founder of that faith
Not relevant for the same reason.
3) The accounts are accurate and these people really did know Jesus (who by implication existed)
Sort of relevant, but not a direct answer to the question. If they actually knew him then it follows as a matter of simple logical necessity that he existed. What I'm asking about is what you think we should reasonably conclude if they claimed to know him and even witness his resurrection (which would either be true claims or false claims and they would be in a position to know which it was) and they were willing to die painful deaths rather than recant on their claims.
4) People can delude themselves in thinking they knew a person when they really didn’t, even to the point of wanting to die for that person
So a group of people can convince themselves that they've all spent years in close association with the same individual, traveling with, talking to, learning from, and sharing meals with this person, when this person never actually existed? You seem to by trying to reference cases where individuals, in isolation, become obsessed with someone like a celebrity (who, by the way, actually exists) and delude themselves into thinking that they have a relationship with the celebrity. There is no aspect of this scenario that is relevant to what we're talking about.
5) Similar to 4, but the people making the claim lied about their association.
And so we're back to the unprecedented idea of people being willing to die painful deaths for something they knew for a fact to be a lie. What you seem to be doing here is trying to avoid committing yourself to an admission that certain types of evidence could powerfully indicate the truth of Jesus existence even if they fall short of absolute proof. This is exactly the methodology of selective hyper-skepticism that I was talking about. The options you've listed could be applied to any historical person. The mere fact that they might be logically possible does not mean they are remotely plausible or reasonable. If this degree of hyper-skepticism was applied uniformly rather than selectively you would need to throw out all of history as being unreliable and not warranting your acceptance. Who knows, the documents claimed to be eye-witness reports about any event in history could be forgeries attributed to people who never even existed. It could be, so why not reject everything? And maybe every person who ever died for the truth of some factual claim they said they personally knew to be true not only didn't know it to be true but never claimed to, because the accounts saying they did were mistaken. Who knows? Could be. Or maybe every significant historical personage is merely the product of some group's joint delusions and hallucinations. Perhaps. Who can know for certain really? Why bother accepting that any of them existed at all? And how do we really ever know that anybody in the past really knew the people they claimed to? Any documentation that seems to support their claims could just be a vast conspiracy intended to trick us. And maybe the people making the claims to have known other people never really made claims to know them at all, and maybe they didn't even exist to make the claims of knowing anyone in the first place (refer back to the possibility of forgeries attributed to people that never really existed). Finally...
After all do not followers of some religions today claim to have a close relationship with its founder even though they have not met them in any material sense?
Yeah, sure. But what they typically don't do is claim to have "met them in any material sense", much less insist that they have in the face of torture and death. And also, this is again irrelevant to my question.HeKS
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
02:56 PM
2
02
56
PM
PDT
@Barb #118
When Constantine made christianity the religion, the church retconned the apostle’s deaths as part of it’s history and passed it along. Then they forced the outlying countries to adopt their religion.
And your proof of this is…where?
Don't be silly, Barb. The whole point of selective hyper-skepticism is that you don't need any evidence to accept claims that are conducive to your side of the debate. All you need is bare logical possibility.HeKS
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
02:06 PM
2
02
06
PM
PDT
The comments about 500 eyewitnesses of the resurrected Jesus appear in Paul’s letter to the Corinthian congregation. Jesus also appeared to small groups and to Paul himself on the road to Damascus. Bear in mind that many of these people probably were skeptical about Jesus being resurrected.
We really don't any more than what Paul tells us, which is not much. I expect you are comfortable with taking Paul's word for it, but I would like to see some corroboration, which, given what is at stake I don't think is unreasonable. Yes, we could consult them but we don't know who they were, except perhaps for a few. It seems there are no other sources to back up Paul's claim. From a legal perspective we can't really call these witnesses, because they are not able to provide testimony on their own behalf. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm fairly certain if a person in court tried to make a claim based on the observations of an anonymous 500 person group (and that information is second-hand), the judge would rightly dismiss it. All we have is a comment from Paul that there were 500 witnesses and nothing much more than that. And Paul doesn't mention any of them by name either, so they are remain a mysterious group. What we have is really more akin to hearsay, not independent witnesses.roding
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
01:59 PM
1
01
59
PM
PDT
The comments about 500 eyewitnesses of the resurrected Jesus appear in Paul's letter to the Corinthian congregation. Jesus also appeared to small groups and to Paul himself on the road to Damascus. Bear in mind that many of these people probably were skeptical about Jesus being resurrected. Most of the eyewitnesses were still alive in Paul’s day and could be consulted to confirm those appearances. (1 Corinthians 15:6) One or two witnesses might be easy to dismiss, but not the testimony of 500 or more eyewitnesses.Barb
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
01:18 PM
1
01
18
PM
PDT
JLA returns once again:
Also, why are there no written extra biblical records of Jesus spending forty days on earth after he came back from the dead or why no one recorderd the saints leaving their graves at the time of his death? The two biggest events in history that proves life after death and no one wrote them down except his buddies.
The early Christians, who believed that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead, were reported on by early historians including Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Justin Martyr. Whether they believed that Jesus was resurrected can be debated; they were simply reporting what they knew. Jesus only appeared to his disciples.
This just screams story telling on the apostle’s part. They made up a hoax, high tailed it out when the Roman Empire cracked down and left the ignornat followers to die for them.
Says the skeptic who refuses to review any information with an open mind. Forgive me if I take your words with a very large grain of salt.
When Constantine made christianity the religion, the church retconned the apostle’s deaths as part of it’s history and passed it along. Then they forced the outlying countries to adopt their religion.
And your proof of this is…where?
All it takes is 12 hucksters and a powerful Emperor to spread the lie.
Again, I direct you to my post. Please do enlighten us as to who these individuals (who are quoted in my post) were speaking about if Jesus never existed. Show your work. Provide evidence. Your trolling is getting weaker every single time you post. Are you losing your touch?Barb
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
01:14 PM
1
01
14
PM
PDT
Can you tell me whether or not you agree that if people who claimed to be close associates of Jesus for a period of years
I can think of there are several possibilities here: 1) The accounts where people claimed to know Jesus are wrong - neither the people making the claim or Jesus existed 2) The people making the claim existed and practiced a faith for which they were willing to die for, but the documents are inaccurate in portraying that they knew the founder of that faith 3) The accounts are accurate and these people really did know Jesus (who by implication existed) 4) People can delude themselves in thinking they knew a person when they really didn't, even to the point of wanting to die for that person 5) Similar to 4, but the people making the claim lied about their association. 1,2,3 are all possible. 4 & 5 less so, but then given the extreme nature of cultic behavior, perhaps it is not beyond the realm of possibility. After all do not followers of some religions today claim to have a close relationship with its founder even though they have not met them in any material sense? So I don't disagree or agree, I would say I don't know enough yet to answer the question.roding
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
10:25 AM
10
10
25
AM
PDT
@Roding I never really heard back from you after my last comment. Can you tell me whether or not you agree that if people who claimed to be close associates of Jesus for a period of years (i.e. people who were in a position to know the truth) were willing to die painful deaths rather than recant their faith in him and his resurrection, this is powerful evidence that Jesus at least existed?HeKS
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
08:59 AM
8
08
59
AM
PDT
There are over 500 direct witnesses, some 20 of whom can be identified
I've seen this "500 witnesses" reference many times. For some reason I thought it was in Acts, but seems it was Paul. So presumably Paul got this information from an oral source? I don't know, I wonder about the quality of this particular line of evidence. If this was a legal setting, wouldn't this be considered little more than hearsay? e.g., my friend had a friend who twenty years ago travelled in Europe and said there were 500 people who saw a UFO, but there isn't a single corroborated report from any of those 500. Sorry if I'm hyperskeptical, but we have absolutely no way of corroborating these 500 reports. Ultimately what we have is one person claiming there were 500 witnesses (through secondhand info - I don't know maybe 3rd hand), not 500 independent and verifiable eyewitness accounts. I know there is a lot riding on the quality of oral tradition here, but my own human experience tells me facts and data can get twisted, altered and exaggerated in a remarkably short space of time. There's a reason why hearsay is inadmissible in court. Doesn't mean to say the rest of this couldn't be true, I'm just questioning this particular line of evidence. As you say 20 of these could be identified, and that would be potentially more convincing than this 500 number.roding
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
07:43 AM
7
07
43
AM
PDT
Rod: the very first documented note on this is the c 55 AD summary in 1 Cor 15:1 - 11 given above, which outlines the c. 35 - 38 AD "official testimony." (That's in Jerusalem, and way too early for legends to develop, and remember this is the former arch persecutor who had lost his arguments with Stephen and seems implicated in his judicial murder by virtue of the significant act of guarding the clothes of the lynch mob who murdered him.) There are over 500 direct witnesses, some 20 of whom can be identified -- though, e.g. we do not know the names of the sisters of James & Jude, described as Jesus' brothers [prob., natural children of Joseph and Mary, possibly cousins]. The twelve apostles (less one and with a replacement chosen from the wider circle), Mary Magdalene and the circle of the women of the company of Disciples who provided logistical and hospitality support [the first physical witnesses but in C1 law not accepted in court], James, Mary his mother and the rest of Jesus' family, and lastly Paul -- granted a special appearance when arrested by Jesus on the road to Damascus. By 55 AD, most were still alive . . . after Gallio's ruling c 51 that gave the great hiatus in opposition, and before Nero's persecution after he had overthrown his mentors, Gallio's bro, Seneca and Burrus . . . and Paul's objectors were invited to go and ask them. (Ironically, in the popularised Platonism-influenced Gk culture of the time, a resurrection was deemed foolish as they sought escape from "the prison of the body" rather than transformation; this would later give rise to one of the Church's first serious challenges, what we term Gnosticism; with roots in the teachings of the same professional magician [not an entertainer!] Simon Magus who features so badly in Ac 8.) KFkairosfocus
October 10, 2014
October
10
Oct
10
10
2014
01:41 AM
1
01
41
AM
PDT
Were there in fact eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus?
Is this one of the questions that scientologists like to ask such as "why do you beat your wife?" :-)roding
October 9, 2014
October
10
Oct
9
09
2014
08:30 PM
8
08
30
PM
PDT
roding:
Certainly it is noteworthy that people are willing to die for their faith, but I think as a proof for the veracity of a particular faith it’s really a weak one.
As a seeker, you'll no doubt wish to avoid the fallacy of begging the question. Were there in fact eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus?Mung
October 9, 2014
October
10
Oct
9
09
2014
04:06 PM
4
04
06
PM
PDT
PS: You also seem to have failed to address the evidence for the reality of Jesus of Nazareth and have taken Dan Brown and ilk a bit too seriously, with their Constantine conspiracy theories. Constantine simply did not have the power to do what Brown et al suggest, even were he to have tried. This is the hyper-credulous flip side of selective hyperskepticism that HeKS pointed out, joined to the well-poisoning/demonising tactic that compounds the matter that I highlighted years ago now. PPS: I suggest you do a refreshon your thinking, and that maybe here might be a good start.kairosfocus
October 9, 2014
October
10
Oct
9
09
2014
12:57 PM
12
12
57
PM
PDT
A church built over top of a supposed grave is not evidence.
Historians disagree. It's not a supposed grave. Bones found on the site (of a 60 yr old man), buried prior to 114 a.d. were found there under a triumphal arch. Graffiti from the same period gives evidence of Peter's gravesite (with hundreds of inscriptions of Peter's name). The churches built on the site are evidence that it was considered an authentic site.Silver Asiatic
October 9, 2014
October
10
Oct
9
09
2014
12:53 PM
12
12
53
PM
PDT
JLA: Evidently, sadly, you cannot or will not read and acknowledge the evidence in hand. In case you missed it, I identified no less than four martyred apostles on the record [James the Just is of that rank too], without appealing to mere traditions -- which BTW may well have a significant kernel of truth and which are often the basis for classical history. For example the earliest biography of Alexander was c 400 ys after the fact. You have inadvertently provided an example of selective hyperskepticism and disregard for the truth and evidence. KFkairosfocus
October 9, 2014
October
10
Oct
9
09
2014
12:50 PM
12
12
50
PM
PDT
On the off-chance the hyper-skepticism isn't obvious enough, perhaps I should call it out a bit more pointedly.
This just screams story telling on the apostle’s part.
When Constantine made christianity the religion, the church retconned the apostle’s deaths as part of it’s history and passed it along.
The impartial observer will recognize that the standard for what is and is not "story telling" is not being applied objectively here. Not even close. The poster strains at gnats while swallowing camels. Object lesson complete. Class dismissed.Phinehas
October 9, 2014
October
10
Oct
9
09
2014
12:30 PM
12
12
30
PM
PDT
Oh, look. Someone has been nice enough to provide an example of the hyper-skepticism HeKS explained earlier.Phinehas
October 9, 2014
October
10
Oct
9
09
2014
12:22 PM
12
12
22
PM
PDT
1 2 3 5

Leave a Reply