Home » Intelligent Design » New Study Indicates Geomagnetic Imprinting in Salmon

New Study Indicates Geomagnetic Imprinting in Salmon

Salmon swim thousands of miles out into the open ocean only later to return to the precise fresh water stream where they were born and a new study suggests that this navigational miracle, in part, is due to geomagnetic imprinting. That is, the salmon sense, remember, and later use a map of the Earth’s magnetic field in and around their home river inlet.  Read more

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38 Responses to New Study Indicates Geomagnetic Imprinting in Salmon

  1. Though salmon are surely a wonder, I think this following little guy takes the trophy for long distance navigation:

    Featherweight songbird is a long-distance champ – February 2012
    Excerpt: A tiny songbird weighing just two tablespoons of sugar migrates from the Arctic to Africa and back, a distance of up to 29,000 kilometres (18,000 miles), scientists reported on Wednesday.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....champ.html

    Notes:

    Fish & Dinosaur Evolution vs. The Actual Evidence – video and notes
    http://vimeo.com/30932397

    Bird Evolution vs. The Actual Fossil Evidence – video and notes
    http://vimeo.com/30926629

    An interesting side-note to this is that it is found that flying fish are remarkably similar to birds, and even jet airplanes, in many superior attributes of gliding ability:

    Flying Fish Glide as Well as Birds, Researchers Find – Sept. 2010
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.....082308.htm

    As well flying fish are ‘surprisingly’ unchanged in the fossil record for at least as far back as 95 million years:

    Flying Fish Fossil – pictures of 95 million year old fossil
    http://www.fossilmuseum.net/fi.....toides.htm

  2. “The heavens proclaim the glory of God . . .” And so does the earth and all it contains.

    But, in the meantime, we have to endure the scorn of atheists. How sad.

  3. OT: Dr. Ben Carson’s National Prayer Breakfast Address – video
    http://landing.newsinc.com/sha.....heel=91420

  4. bornagain77 at #3

    Sorry to deviate from the topic of this thread but I watch
    Dr. Ben Carson’s speech and I totally liked it. And I realized that this is the kind of black president that I would like to have.

  5. I don’t think there is a mystery to these creatures finding their ways.
    I think its all about powerful memory’s.
    They simply remember their way back.
    Geomagnetic imprinting is just more memory operations.
    The error has been to equate memory with intelligence.
    I think to segregate memory from intelligence would explain mental retardation in people and creatures finding their way about earth.
    No big deal. They just remember.

  6. As to tracing a mechanism for they have ‘Geomagnetic Imprinting’ for Salmon to the molecular level, it seems they have not traced that mechanism out yet but have merely traced the overall Salmon migratory patterns to the varying ‘geomagnetic field drift’. ,,, Where we have a much better ‘tracing out’ of the molecular mechanism for migratory patterns is in birds:

    Magnetic Compass of Birds Is Based on a Molecule with Optimal Directional Sensitivity – 2009
    Excerpt: The avian magnetic compass has been well characterized in behavioral tests: it is an “inclination compass” based on the inclination of the field lines rather than on the polarity, and its operation requires short-wavelength light. The “radical pair” model suggests that these properties reflect the use of specialized photopigments in the primary process of magnetoreception; it has recently been supported by experimental evidence indicating a role of magnetically sensitive radical-pair processes in the avian magnetic compass. In a multidisciplinary approach subjecting migratory birds to oscillating fields and using their orientation responses as a criterion for unhindered magnetoreception, we identify key features of the underlying receptor molecules.
    http://www.cell.com/biophysj/r.....9509004688

    This New Research Reveals One More Awesome Aspect of Pigeon Navigation – April 2012
    Excerpt: The new research suggests that there must be, as yet undiscovered, magnetic field sensors in the bird’s inner ear which report compass readings to the brainstem.
    http://darwins-god.blogspot.co.....-more.html

    Magnetic fields light up ‘GPS neurons’, scientists say – 27 April 2012
    Excerpt: Researchers have spotted a group of 53 cells within pigeons’ brains that respond to the direction and strength of the Earth’s magnetic field.,,, Every neuron had its own characteristic response to the magnetic field, with each giving a sort of 3-D compass reading along the familiar north-south directions as well as pointing directly upward or downward.
    In life, this could help the bird determine not only its heading just as a compass does, but would also reveal its approximate position.
    Each cell also showed a sensitivity to field strength, with the maximum sensitivity corresponding to the strength of the Earth’s natural field.
    And just like a compass, the neurons had opposite responses to different field “polarity” – the magnetic north and south of a field, which surprised the researchers most of all. ,,,
    “That’s one of the beautiful aspects of what we’ve identified, because it shows how single brain cells can record multiple properties or complex qualities in a simple way.”
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scie.....t-17855194

    Quantum robins lead the way – January 21, 2011 by Pete Wilton
    Excerpt: Researchers have been investigating the mechanism which enables birds to detect the Earth’s magnetic field to help them navigate over vast distances. This ability, known as magnetoreception, has been linked to chemical reactions inside birds’ eyes.
    Now a team from Oxford University and Singapore believe that this ‘compass’ is making use of something called quantum coherence.
    In a forthcoming article in Physical Review Letters the team report how they anaylsed data from an experiment by Oxford and Frankfurt scientists on robins.
    The experiment showed that the magnetic compass used by robins could be distrupted by extremely small levels of magnetic ‘noise’. When this noise, a tiny oscillating magnetic field, was introduced it completely disabled the Robins’ compass sense which then returned to normal once the noise was removed – good news for robins which have to navigate on the long migration route to Scandinavia and Africa and back every year.
    In their analysis the Oxford/Singapore team show that only a system with components operating at a quantum level would be this sensitive to such a small amount of noise.
    http://phys.org/news/2011-01-quantum-robins.html

    Related notes:

    Starlings – Murmuration
    http://vimeo.com/31158841

    In the 1930s, British ornithologist Edmund Selous – fascinated by Starling flocking (mumuration) – attributed the tremendous variety of their formations to telepathy! ,,, I would say that the recent discovery of a ‘non-local’ (beyond space and time) ‘quantum compass’ for birds has made the overall idea of ‘telepathic birds’ not such a ‘bird brain’ idea after all.

    Semi-related notes:

    So Unique, So Exceptional—The Miracles of Evolution – video (Birds of Paradise) – Dr. Cornelius Hunter
    http://darwins-god.blogspot.co.....es-of.html

    Rare Glimpses of Amazing Birds-of-Paradise Courtship Rituals – Video playlist
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....W8CJmPNNNA

    Verse and music:

    Matthew 10:31
    “So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.”

    Paul McCartney – Blackbird [Live Acoustic] [High Quality] – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_SrYqLrljU

  7. correction: As to tracing a mechanism for ‘Geomagnetic Imprinting’ for Salmon to the molecular level,,,,

  8. OT: Frank Turek interviewing Cold Case Homicide Detective, J. Wallace on what constitutes good evidence and how the New Testament stacks up – audio
    http://mediaserver3.afa.net/ar.....020913.mp3

  9. InVivoVeritas, via Wall Street Journal:

    Ben Carson for President – February 8, 2013
    The Johns Hopkins neurosurgeon has two big ideas for America.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/.....hare_tweet

  10. What a shocker, bornagain. Shame on you. How can you, a Christian, and a Christian who otherwise sounds heroic is his sincerity and courage, talk like that, when you have so many FAMILIES homeless in your country, apart from the single people? It’s not as if you didn’t have the Nordic countries and Germany for a template, and even the welfare states of the UK, during what the French call, Les Trente Glorieuses, following WWII.

    The current crisis isn’t due to the envy by the poor of the rich, but the endless greed of the super rich; those you claim are the great wealth creators!

    Much as I loathe the influence of atheists on politics, across the whole spectrum, I can’t help thinking that the Communist leaders of yore will be welcomed on Judgment Day as the brother who said he wouldn’t do what is father asked him to, but did it. No prizes for hazarding the West’s identity in that scenario – most notably, of course, the US, which has always been a byword for materialism.

    At one time, not so long ago, China fed, clothed and housed almost a third of the world’s population. Don’t talk to me about that famine, two thirds of which was caused by Mao’s plan. His intent, at least, was not evil. But the West’s geopolitical, economic hegemony has been responsible for millions of people in the third world starving to death over many decades now. Did you know that 500,000 orphans were left in Iraq, after our little gift of democratisation.

    How is they did not think the Second Commandment was negotiable, when I doubt if their leaders would have even been familiar with our scripture?

    Remember what was, ultimately, the sole, criterion stipulated by Christ in the one description of the Last judgment in the bible? Nothing in our scripture by way of lauding Herod for his tremendous wealth-creating projects; but an awful lot about the way the poor were economically oppressed due to the greed and dishonesty of the rich, religio-political establishment. Indeed, you will find the fairly constant apposition of oppression, violence and fruadulence with the rich man; and the virtuous man, the true Israel, with the poor man; the Magnificat, in particular, in the New Testament.

    Yes, because they are, generally, endemically more worldly and less spiritual, the rich do need more money, material goods and status than the poor. But that should not be seen as a green light for insane, fathomless rapacity. The rich should pay in proportion to their income. Period.

    Do you think when we had a top tax band of 95p in the pound, after WWI, the rich didn’t still have their ocean-going yachts, Bentleys’ etc. Think again.

  11. ‘He didn’t say if your crops fail, don’t give me any tithe or if you have a bumper crop, give me triple tithe. So there must be something inherently fair about proportionality.’

    Proportionality?!?! Well, I’ve heard of people talking out of both studies of their mouth at the same time, but that beats all. … except perhaps that this most distinguished, pediatric neurosurgeon was a terrible student…!

  12. .. should have been ‘both sides of their mouth’, of course. Sorry.

  13. Axel, you may appreciate this interpretation of Brooke Fraser’s CS Lewis song:

    Brooke Fraser – CS Lewis Song (Cool interpretation)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT-sso5AhmA

  14. Thank you for that, bornagain. I found it particularly moving in parts.

    Some of the scenes remind me of the scenes in a YouTube video-compilation of a Johnny Cash song called, ‘When the Man comes around’. They seem to have taken down the one I was looking for, probably because it’s too near the present-day outlook, with its shots of crowd scenes outside the Wall Street finance houses at the time of the Wall Street Crash.

    Keynes made some remarkably prophetic comments regarding the the struggle between the banks and the public, and its final outcome.

    As for Carson, we can see God’s take on proportionality very clearly in his warning that the measure we give will be the measure we shall receive on Judgment Day, with particular reference to the Widow’s Mite. Indeed, the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount were not merely addressed to Jesus’ own people, the Anawin, but to all of us, rich and poor alike.

  15. the endless greed of the rich? really the only ‘endless greed’ I see is on the part of the beneficiaries of the welfare state who want more of other people’s money to take care of them with. As far as germany and the nordic countries working, you do know germany has ruined the economies of the southern europe with the euro, right? and sweden has privatized social security and school vouchers. They spend far less than we do

    how many centuries of failure will it take before people like you understand that socialism does not work? I can’t beleive ANYONE would think Mao had good intentions while he was slaughtering tens of millions. amazing.

    the communists will be welcomed on judgement day? oh boy, Jesus was not a communist, and the bible says:

    2 Thessalonians 3:10

    For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.”

    the west is responsible for the third world having food and surviving another day. to blame the rich, who did not get rich on the backs on anyone, for the problems of the poor is a monstrous and evil lie. you want to know why people are poor? look to your failed socialist state and their desire to ‘help’ people, which leads to ruin and misery every time its tried.

  16. I confess I hardly know where to start correcting such vicious and uninformed tripe.

    For all that there are bound to be exceptions, do you deny that both Old and New Testaments characterize the rich as symbols of wickedness, and the poor, as symbols of virtue, the true Israel? It is too comprehensively inane to deconstruct your post, sentence by sentence.

    That reference to Thessalonians was specific to its time, as the Parousia was expected at any time in the early church, and some characters decided they needn’t work any more.. just wait. Like the immigrant who had been told the streets of London were paved with gold, and was about to pick up a bundle of ten pound notes he saw in the road, but then decided, no, he’d wait until tomorrow before starting work.

    It’s true Communism was doomed in the West from the start, since Christians can only progress or regress dramatically to a worse position than they were before. Your criticism of Mao suggests you would even be rejected by Fox News as too naive and inept a propagandist for their purposes. Worse, you seem to truly believe what you’ve written quite passionately.

    I prefer the word of three British teachers who had worked in China under Mao’s regime. They were unanimous in their praise of the country – they executed rich fraudsters, instead of promoting them, US-style – the happiness and law-abiding character of its people was like anything they had seen elsewhere in the world. You could leave the door of your room in any hotel unlocked without any fear of having any of your property stolen, or a woman, of being raped.

    Imagine if China had been as violently-disposed, both internally and externally, as the US? They could have conquered and occupied at the very least South East Asia, and had enough troops under arms to police their colonies, with plenty to spare.

    Chiang Kai Shek, a graduate of organised crime in his younger days, had been so corrupt, even the Americans who were busy corrupting him, were appalled. He’d kept money they’d given him for his war against the Communists for his personal treasury.

    (What is it with the right in the US that they seem to have had this ongoing love affair with organised crime for so long. In the war in Europe you’d released Lucky Luciano from prison to direct administrative affairs in Sicily. Even, today, major banks have been saved from going under by drug money).

    Unsurprisingly Shek’s troops were slowly starving to death, so that they had to be chained up at night to prevent their escaping to the other side.

    And what about Pol Pot? After all those crocodile tears (actually still being shed), the West preferred him to be alive, free and on their side, until, finally, having served his purposes, in April 1998, 73-year-old Pol Pot died of an apparent heart attack following his arrest, before he could be brought to trial by an international tribunal for the events of 1975-79. I don’t recall Mr Salvador Allende’s being brought before an international tribunal, do you?

    Why had the West left Pol Pot at liberty for 17 years, while he fought a guerilla war against the Cambodian puppet government, installed by the Vietnamese, of Khmer Rouge defectors? The question answers itself. All is wickedness and cynicism in geopolitics, because all countries with imperial ambitions are corporate psychopaths.

    You have a young child’s understanding of the West’s geopolitical record, and an even poorer understanding of Christian scripture.

    The reason why the poor are poor, is because, as James points out in his epistle, God chose the poor to be rich in faith. ‘Where your treasure is, there your heart is,’ were Christ’s actual words. Also, Blessed are the poor’(!)

    Regard the lilies of the field; they neither sow, neither do they spin. And yet I tell you that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed as one of these.’ Yet in the richest country in the world, people have to hold down three jobs to survive from one pay-cheque to the next; with families having both parents thus employed around the clock.

    Have you no SHAME! I suppose if you understand so little, to expect such a feeling from you is unrealistic. Don’t tell me: you are an alumnus and devotee of the demonic and campaigning atheist, Ayn Rand.

    I would advise you to studiously avoid looking at the faces of any homeless people you see on the street. It may be the face you see passing sentence on you on Judgment Day.

  17. Perhaps you are a child. If so, my apologies.

  18. All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. (Acts 4:32)

    I’m a communist, but I hate communism.

    ;)

  19. 13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

    I’m a capitalist, but I hate capitalism.

    ;)

  20. Yes I do deny the rich were symbols of evil, ever hear of David and SOLOMON..hmmm???? I mean your envy and hatred of other people’s success, and your GREED for their money has blinded you. Abraham was rich, so was Job. your ignorance of the bible is only exceeded by your ignorance of economics.

    The command of the Lord in Thessalonians was to all people for all times. Ever hear of the curse?? hmm?? you will earn your bread by the sweat of your brow. you should try reading the bible before making a bigger fool out of yourself.

    I can’t believe anyone would defend that brutal vicious vile evil mass murderer Mao. He made stalin and hitler look good by comparison. and you call yourself a ‘christian’ its laughable. the lengths you go to defend that mass murderer are just amazing. he slaugtered upwards of 80 MILLION people…all in his lust for power. and goose-steppers like you applaud.

    the only people in the west who wanted Pol Pot alive were good liberal democrats and good liberal europeans who hated the US, and hate freedom, and support vicous murderous communist thugs. your conspiracy theories show you to be a severely delusional individual.

    as far as the poor being *special*. what a joke, they are no more special than anyone else. Jesus loved the rich young ruler..how can that be if the ignorant socialist tripe you substitute for the Word of God is true? hmmm??

    Have you no SHAME? you support the people and policies that have slaughtered hundreds of millions, and enslaved billions, and killed untold numbers of christians…you holier-than-thou hypocrite. talk about a pharisee, you ‘sir’ exemplify them.

  21. oh and if you’re not under professional care, you seriously need it.

    oh poor allende, you’re still shedding a tear for another communist murderer. gee what a surprise, no doubt you like that vicious murderer castro and his killer side-kick che, like all the other good brain-dead liberals who think socialism will work THIS time.

    you ‘care’ about the poor, and its your policies that have created SO many of them. and you feel compassionate, when you use other people’s money to keep them poor and dependent. you are sick vile and twisted.

  22. oh and on the day of Judgement, the Lord will judge me, your words show you’re not a christian. No one else will judge anyone except the Lord. I will stand for freedom, self-reliance, and having the Lord as God.

    You can stand with your hero Mao, and your vision of having the government as god, and we will see the results.

  23. Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter–when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

  24. Mung, can you not see the difference between taking money from people by FORCE, and giving charity out of your own heart? the government programs you think are so ‘compassionate’ are total failures. have you been to DETROIT to see the results of the liberal policies you love so?

    do you really think the government playing god, which is what is happening in europe and the US, is a good thing? have you noticed how christianity has declined in Europe, and here? why go to God, when you can just get what you need from the government?

  25. Ignorance is bad enough, but willful ignorance is worse, although still curable. But what is incurable, in my experience, is pious willful ignorance.

    The Gulag Archipelago, by Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn

    This abridged edition of Solzhenitsyn’s hauntingly intimate portrait of his own arrest, interrogation, imprisonment, rebellion, and eventual release during Stalin’s purges is a book like no other. This book, written by a constantly watched and persecuted dissident – bent but not broken by the brutality of Stalinist work camps, shares the author’s (and his other inmates’) personal experiences falling into this dark, usually fatal, abyss. Solzhenitsyn’s original work was published in 1971 and produced an absolutely damning indictment of communism in Russia. Indeed, the stunning quality and importance of his writing earned him a Nobel prize.

    Besides his own experiences, Solzhenitsyn collected personal stories from hundreds of his fellow inmates. The sadism of interrogators, the cruelty of guards, the indifference of neighbors, the paranoia of the public, the betrayal of stoolies, and the true comradery of innocent inmates are presented in vivid, factual detail. In addition to this, the author also presents an encyclopeadic knowledge of the entirety of the gigantic Stalinist security apparatus (normal labor camps, special labor camps, transfer camps, railroad transfers, prisons, holding cells, interrogation cells, NKVD, SMERSH, commissars, exile communities, and still more).

    The Black Book of Communism, by Jean-Louis Panné , Andrzej Paczkowski, Karel Bartosek, Jean-Louis Margolin, Nicolas Werth, and Stéphane Courtois

    Already famous throughout Europe, this international bestseller plumbs recently opened archives in the former Soviet bloc to reveal the actual, practical accomplishments of Communism around the world: terror, torture, famine, mass deportations, and massacres. Astonishing in the sheer detail it amasses, the book is the first comprehensive attempt to catalogue and analyze the crimes of Communism over seventy years.

    “Revolutions, like trees, must be judged by their fruit,” Ignazio Silone wrote, and this is the standard the authors apply to the Communist experience—in the China of “the Great Helmsman,” Kim Il Sung’s Korea, Vietnam under “Uncle Ho” and Cuba under Castro, Ethiopia under Mengistu, Angola under Neto, and Afghanistan under Najibullah. The authors, all distinguished scholars based in Europe, document Communist crimes against humanity, but also crimes against national and universal culture, from Stalin’s destruction of hundreds of churches in Moscow to Ceausescu’s leveling of the historic heart of Bucharest to the widescale devastation visited on Chinese culture by Mao’s Red Guards.

    As the death toll mounts—as many as 25 million in the former Soviet Union, 65 million in China, 1.7 million in Cambodia, and on and on—the authors systematically show how and why, wherever the millenarian ideology of Communism was established, it quickly led to crime, terror, and repression. An extraordinary accounting, this book amply documents the unparalleled position and significance of Communism in the hierarchy of violence that is the history of the twentieth century.

    Mao: The Unknown Story, by Jung Chang and John Halliday

    The most authoritative life of the Chinese leader ever written, Mao: The Unknown Story is based on a decade of research, and on interviews with many of Mao’s close circle in China who have never talked before — and with virtually everyone outside China who had significant dealings with him. It is full of startling revelations, exploding the myth of the Long March, and showing a completely unknown Mao: he was not driven by idealism or ideology; his intimate and intricate relationship with Stalin went back to the 1920s, ultimately bringing him to power; he welcomed Japanese occupation of much of China; and he schemed, poisoned, and blackmailed to get his way. After Mao conquered China in 1949, his secret goal was to dominate the world. In chasing this dream he caused the deaths of 38 million people in the greatest famine in history. In all, well over 70 million Chinese perished under Mao’s rule — in peacetime.

  26. tsmith:

    Mung, can you not see the difference between taking money from people by FORCE, and giving charity out of your own heart?

    Absolutely. One is taking and the other is giving.

    …the government programs you think are so ‘compassionate’ are total failures. have you been to DETROIT to see the results of the liberal policies you love so?

    I just love how you feed into the stereotype that conservatives are not compassionate and do not want to help the poor.

    …do you really think the government playing god, which is what is happening in europe and the US, is a good thing?

    I guess it depends. I depend on the government to execute the murderer. If that’s not “playing god” what is?

    …have you noticed how christianity has declined in Europe, and here? why go to God, when you can just get what you need from the government?

    I grew up hearing that if you give to God he’ll give to you. I’d rather He gave to the poor. Or I could give to the poor.

    I find that only Christians are to blame for the decline of Christianity. If we were doing our job the government wouldn’t need to.

    I’ve never had reason to doubt that Axel is my brother.

    Please reconsider your attacks against him.

    Peace.

  27. I don’t know where you get I feed into the stereotypes that conservatives don’t want to help the poor.

    the government is authorized by the Lord to execute lawbreakers (romans 13) the Bible never authorizes government to be sugar daddy.

    The government has usurped our role, and people like axel, your ‘brother’ supports that.

    how can you call anyone ‘brother’ who supports those who slaughter christians? hmm??

    no I stand by my ‘attacks’ on anyone who claims to be a christian and supports those who murder christians.

  28. The government has usurped our role, and people like axel, your ‘brother’ supports that.

    How on earth is it possible that an earthly government should usurp the role of the Christian believer or of the Christian Church?

    What has one to do with the other?

    …the Bible never authorizes government to be sugar daddy.

    Have you ever studied taxes and tithes in the Old Testament?

    The government has usurped our role, and people like axel, your ‘brother’ supports that.

    Does he? Ask him.

    how can you call anyone ‘brother’ who supports those who slaughter christians? hmm??

    Such a tangled web we weave.

    Who killed Jesus?

    Did the Roman government slaughter Christians?

    Should the Christian “lawbreakers” have resisted?

    Should they have resorted to killing in order to “save” their own lives?

    Your argument seems to be that the US government is just as corrupt as the government of Mao, with the exception that they haven’t yet endorsed the outright killing of Christians. (Branch Davidians were not Christians.)

  29. the Lord told the church to take care of the poor, not the government.

    you do know the Lord never wanted a king in Israel, right? have you studied the OT?

    its rather obvious he does, what do you think communism was all about? the government plaing god.

    who killed Jesus? you and me.

    of course the Romans slaughtered christians, would you have supported the roman government then?

    I have argued that the US government is as corrupt as the governent of Mao, you seem to have a great deal of misunderstanding about what I said.

  30. I am still waiting for an answer on how you consider someone a ‘brother’ who supports governments who slaughter christians.

  31. tsmith:

    I have argued that the US government is as corrupt as the governent of Mao, you seem to have a great deal of misunderstanding about what I said.

    Mung:

    Your argument seems to be that the US government is just as corrupt as the government of Mao

    Maybe you have a great deal of misunderstanding about what you said. I seem to have grasped it rather easily.

  32. oh and you do know the Lord told the disciples to buy a sword, so yes there is a time to fight for your life.

  33. tsmith:

    I am still waiting for an answer on how you consider someone a ‘brother’ who supports governments who slaughter christians.

    And I’m still waiting to hear whether you believe that governments are instituted by God or if it’s only governments which don’t slaughter Christians that are instituted by God.

  34. I’m sorry that wasn’t clear, I am not arguing the US government is as corrupt as mao, I should have put a question mark after that instead of a comma.

    so no, you are not understanding me at all.

  35. all governments are instituted by God, but that doesn’t mean we should support instituting a government that slaughters christians, oppresses the poor, and kills those who disagree. do you think people in the US during WWII should have supported hitler? hmm??

  36. now lets see you answer my question about how you consider someone a ‘brother’ who supports governments that kill christians.

    I remember going to churches that supported the Wold council of churches, who in turn supported communist revolutionary movements around the world who killed christians. I found the hypocrisy to be astounding.

  37. tsmith: I have total simpathy for your point of view.

  38. tsmith:

    …now lets see you answer my question about how you consider someone a ‘brother’ who supports governments that kill christians.

    By simply denying your premise.

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