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Myers and Dawkins: A pox on both their houses

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I’ve been quiet on UD for a while, but after seeing the (however qualified) praise VJ Torley has handed Myers for his limp-wristed opposition to a moralizing Richard Dawkins, I feel the need to offer another view.

Myers deserves no praise for his opposition to Dawkins on the issue of the morality of (mandatory) aborting children with Down Syndrome, and people who are pro-life do themselves a disservice by choosing to offer him even an ounce of respect on this issue. In this case, the enemy of your enemy is still your enemy.

I’ll keep this succinct. First, Myers is not rushing to the defense of children with Down Syndrome.

Ask him if he thinks a woman who aborts a child with Down Syndrome is immoral. All evidence indicates he would say no, it is not.

Ask him, for that matter, whether it’s immoral for a woman to abort a child who is perfectly healthy. Again, the evidence indicates he would say no.

In fact, you may want to ask him if there are any situations in which a woman’s decision to have an abortion is immoral. My guess is he would say no, because a woman’s choice on this matter is sacrosanct, and she is the highest and exclusive authority when it comes to deciding when, whether and how to end the life of her child, so long as it meets the arbitrary distinction of still being inside of her at the time. Or maybe he at least follows Singer in allowing for some time after birth as well.

To put this in perspective: on the one hand we have Richard Dawkins, who apparently defends the morality of abortion whenever a woman damn well pleases, but who sometimes thinks abortion is in fact morally obligatory. On the other hand we have PZ Myers, who instead believes that a woman can do whatever she wants in this case, ‘humanity’ be damned. There is little to cheer here.

Now, one may point out that, at the very least, Myers would apparently argue that children with Down Syndrome are – if their mothers, in their mercy, decide not to obliterate them – still ‘human’, and possibly owed some moral consideration after their birth and in light of that fact. In response to that, I’d like to quote William J Murray:

PZ makes the exact same mistake Dawkins makes; he exhorts an objective moral value even while he denies they exist:

(…)

To claim that an act is in itself immoral necessarily refers to some form of objective morality. You cannot say what is moral or immoral for others to do if morality is indeed subjective; only the individual can say what is moral for themselves.

No one can argue or act as if morality is subjective. To insist that it is subjective is the height of foolishness.

I think Murray is right about this. And I likewise think it follows that if Murray is right, then we can ill afford to give either Dawkins or Myers praise for (at best) mistakenly fumbling their way towards the most meager example of a good moral choice that may be in line with an objective morality. Instead, we should remind both of them – they gave up moral language worth caring about in their embrace of not just atheism, but a materialistic atheism, for which (despite Sam Harris’ cries to the contrary) room does not exist for a meaningful morality.

Myers is not on the side of angels. Myers, at absolute best, is on the side of Myers, or whatever subjectively pleases Myers at this moment. Let’s not, even for a moment, pretend it can be otherwise. A materialist atheism does not allow for anything more than that.

Comments
“Too bad that sacrifice could not help the physical death issue, now that would be convincing.” It did! Jesus’ death was a physical resurrection, not a spiritual one. And so every Christian will likewise have their own bodily resurrection, (Romans 8:23). It is just our bad luck we are not God.velikovskys
August 26, 2014
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@ velikovsky
Lots of children die before the age of accountability, therefore they committed no sins, and since you believe death is punishment, how is the punishment of the innocent with death justified?
JDD did a good job responding, but I would add that there really are NO innocent people anywhere. The Bible says that we have all sinned. In some way, we are all responsible for the sin of Adam. So there are two types of sin - original sin and sin that we commit ourselves. Because we all sinned "in Adam", we are all sinners and born with a sin nature separated from God. We are God's enemies from birth. We are not born with a clean slate that later on becomes corrupted by poor moral choices. So when any of us suffers from the effects of the 'curse' that resulted from Adam's sin, no one can claim to be purely innocent, even those under the age of accountability. Plus, even if their sin is not held against them because of their ignorance or the age of accountability, they still did sin and are so are not truly innocent. People like to claim they are innocent and do not deserve the bad things that happen to them, but they forget that no one is innocent. We are all born as sinners deserving the righteous wrath of God against that sin. Failing to understand this is a big reason that many have rejected God as a "big meanie in the sky". Even their life is a gift from God that they do not deserve! If we really got what we deserve, we would all be eternally condemned because we have all sinned. No one earns eternal life. We have earned death. Eternal life can only be received as a gift of God's grace.tjguy
August 25, 2014
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#40 velikovskys
So those children in the womb are not by any means innocent, they are guilty of sin and already condemned to death. In some cases that death can be accompanied by excruciating pain before they even reach the age of exercising their free will.
You're assuming a few things here: 1. Pain is totally meaningless and is something that everyone, universally, would always choose to avoid 2. Since pain is meaningless and cannot have a good purpose, nobody would ever desire to suffer it. 3. If an innocent person experienced pain, that would always be an injustice 4. Nobody could be grateful for having experienced pain, whether it was a just-punishment or received in innocence. 5. The experience of temporal pain is so horrendous, that there is nothing that could ever compensate for it. There is no reward that could ever justify the endurance of pain. 6. The fact that a person has been created - brought into existence, carries with it no obligations. It carries expectations, privileges, demands and rights - but no obligation of gratitude for having been created at all. You've had Catholic education, so that's good. To get some insights, I'd suggest a review of the lives of the saints, especially martyrs. There are hundreds of them - and the key topic you'll find in them is an understanding of pain. You'll also find a lot of innocence also. People who suffered lots of pain and yet were innocent. You'll notice a certain attitude towards pain in the saints also. This will go against most of the assumptions I listed above. I'll suggest also the theology of the cross and what that means.
At least for atheist, life is valuable because of its uniqueness, your view makes it akin to someone slamming your hand in a car door repeatedly then expecting gratitude when they stop.
I don't see how atheism indicates that life is unique and therefore has value. In that view, life is accidental. It's available in countless forms and has no value over non-living matter. However, if life is a gift from God and is designed for an eternity of happiness after a brief time on earth -- then it obviously has huge value. Since each person is loved individually, it's not only life that is unique - but each individual person. But regarding the slamming of the hand, could you explain that further and how you arrived at that analogy? I'm not following that part. From the statement: "As Paul said, to live is Christ to die is gain" where did you get the idea that God tortures people pointlessly?Silver Asiatic
August 25, 2014
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@ velikovskys: Thanks for your comments. I can sympathise with much of what you say as from human logic. Without any supernatural revelation that I could trust I would largely come to similar conclusions as yourself. That is where our worldviews no doubt part: I believe, through careful examination, that the Bible is the inerrant revealed Word of God. Penned by men through inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It in fact makes that claim, therefore examining that claim is important. I would encourage you to do that yourself over accepting "indoctrination" from others.
So those children in the womb are not by any means innocent, they are guilty of sin and already condemned to death. In some cases that death can be accompanied by excruciating pain before they even reach the age of exercising their free will.
Romans 8:18 - "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us."
Too bad that sacrifice could not help the physical death issue, now that would be convincing.
Romans 5:12 - "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned" I Corinthians 15:22 - "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." Romans 6:4-10 - "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God."
That depends on which subjective God one chooses, but for a God which values human life would be absurd and cruel even with the eventual reward.
See above, Romans 8:18 and others. Jesus was apparently perfect and without sin. Yet He had to suffer and die. Until you embrace Rom 8:18 then physical death and pain will not make sense. This is one of my original points, people cannot fathom how unimaginably greater the second life and second physical body will be in comparison to this one.
Yes because it sounds like rationalization, life would be absurd without an afterlife,therefore there is an afterlife.
Actually, the rationalist argument would be without any evidence of an afterlife, it is a mere fanciful unbased hope to make us feel better about death and dying. You could argue a soul could exist and consciousness could remain, but there is no rational reason to assume that except one based on our own hope and none of us have been there. Except Jesus, who died and rose again and appeared to humans. So the question is whether you believe that actually happened, and also whether you believe that the Bible is God's Word and revelation to humans. That is what it hinges on - if you believe that (and I personally think the evidence is overwhelmingly strong for it) then you have a logical reason for accepting an afterlife, both good and bad. If we have no revelation from someone who has died and come back to life and been there, or from someone in that domain of life (if it exists) then we are only basing it on our own fanciful hopes. So it comes down to how you view Scripture and the person of Jesus Christ and His historic veracity. In fact, the whole (true) Christian faith is completely illogical and differs from all other systems of religion in a fundamental way, which adds weight it is not of man. The whole of true Christianity is founded on the fact that mankind are all born sinners, they cannot acheive the level that is required of them to enter into God's presence, and need a Saviour who is God Himself to take penalty for wrong doing and unholiness, to impute holiness upon them and die a spiritual death to be made new and have the capabilities of doing right/"good". Every other religion including the false ones branching out from Christianity all say that you need to do something and you need to acheive in order to be good enough. That is man's system - we can be good enough to reach God. However the Bible teaches the opposite, a stumbling block to the Jew [religious] and foolishness to the Greek [wise of the age]. Isaiah 55:8 - "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.Dr JDD
August 25, 2014
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@ velikovskys #40 "Too bad that sacrifice could not help the physical death issue, now that would be convincing." It did! Jesus' death was a physical resurrection, not a spiritual one. And so every Christian will likewise have their own bodily resurrection, (Romans 8:23).KRock
August 24, 2014
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Jdd, The term death can be used for both but has separate meaning (i.e. contrasted to eternal life wtih God). I am familiar with that concept as a result of twelve years of Catholic education. It is appointed to man to die once, and all humans will die a physical death (well, most, depending on your eschatological view). We deserve a physical death because of sin but also a spiritual one. So those children in the womb are not by any means innocent, they are guilty of sin and already condemned to death. In some cases that death can be accompanied by excruciating pain before they even reach the age of exercising their free will. So that is the distinction – one might die a physical death before an age of accountability however they may then have eternal life (as their sin ‘nature’ inherited through humaness is covered by Jesus’ sacrifice). Too bad that sacrifice could not help the physical death issue, now that would be convincing. If one has a perspective that this life is all there is, then yes, this seems absurd and cruel and horrible and hard to rationalise with a God That depends on which subjective God one chooses, but for a God which values human life would be absurd and cruel even with the eventual reward. That outweighs any suffering or cruelity that exists in this physical life, with this mortal body. Then life is even more pointless than with an atheistic view. At least for atheist,life is valuable because of its uniqueness, your view makes it akin to someone slamming your hand in a car door repeatedly then expecting gratitude when they stop. It is a completely different perspective and without that faith and hope, I can understand why people do not understand this perspective. Yes because it sounds like rationalization, life would be absurd without an afterlife,therefore there is an afterlife. Thanks for the interesting thoughtsvelikovskys
August 24, 2014
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veilikovskys @38
Lots of children die before the age of accountability, therefore they committed no sins, and since you believe death is punishment, how is the punishment of the innocent with death justified?
This is a good point and one that non-Christians always stumble upon. This is due to two things: 1) misunderstanding what "death" is in its truest most ultimate sense 2) lack of comprehension of "absence from the body" in the material sense WRT #1: it is quite clear that the passage cited (Rom 6:23) in context is referring to "apart from the mortal body", i.e. in spiritual terms. The Bible also teaches that a physical death and separation from God is the normal route for those who are found with sin. The term death can be used for both but has separate meaning (i.e. contrasted to eternal life wtih God). It is appointed to man to die once, and all humans will die a physical death (well, most, depending on your eschatological view). We deserve a physical death because of sin but also a spiritual one. So that is the distinction - one might die a physical death before an age of accountability however they may then have eternal life (as their sin 'nature' inherited through humaness is covered by Jesus' sacrifice). WRT #2: this is the perspective that is infinitely misunderstood. If one has a perspective that this life is all there is, then yes, this seems absurd and cruel and horrible and hard to rationalise with a God. However when you consider eternity, and existing in a perfected spiritual state (with a "resurrected body") then the two cannot be compared. As Paul said, to live is Christ to die is gain. That outweighs any suffering or cruelity that exists in this physical life, with this mortal body. But all my atheistic friends find this absurd and cannot grasp it - because in their mindset this life is all there is and the best experience you can have. It is a completely different perspective and without that faith and hope, I can understand why people do not understand this perspective.Dr JDD
August 24, 2014
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jstanley01: Strange that so many Christians who say they believe that abortion is murder are offering the murderers counseling instead of lobbying for their prosecution and punishment under law. To be fair,potential murderers and many Christians are doing whatever they can to eliminate the choice of a legal abortion. anthropic: Actually, Christians believe that every human being past the age of accountability deserves death, because every human being has sinned. The wages of sin is death, you know. All have sinned and fallen short. Lots of children die before the age of accountability, therefore they committed no sins, and since you believe death is punishment, how is the punishment of the innocent with death justified?velikovskys
August 24, 2014
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null: And you can tell they’re psychopaths because they reject such things. Catch 22velikovskys
August 24, 2014
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Null 33 Actually, Christians believe that every human being past the age of accountability deserves death, because every human being has sinned. The wages of sin is death, you know. All have sinned and fallen short. Maybe you've heard? Jesus also made it quite clear that when we curse someone, we are murdering them in our spirit. When we lust, we are committing adultery in our hearts. So while Christians stand up for the defenseless unborn, they also understand that most folks who abort do not fully understand that the fetus is a real human being. After all, materialists keep telling them that it's not a human being, so it's not murder. Christians such as my wife do counseling both to women who are considering abortion and to those who heeded the advice of "progressive" folks and killed their baby in the womb. Despite the drumbeat of materialist rationalizations, many find that their conscience bothers them after the fact. That's where forgiveness comes in, from God and from the self.anthropic
August 23, 2014
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It's rather humorous, to me at least, to see the charge that UD is an "echo chamber." That's never been my experience here. And it's these differences of opinion that are entertained here and discussed here that continue to make this site worth visiting. I agree with UPB @34.Mung
August 23, 2014
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I'm glad to se nullasalus posting here again. The more the better, I say...Upright BiPed
August 23, 2014
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veil,
As I understand it, the fact that they are self evident is sufficient to assume objectivity. After all if something is self evident to all non psychopaths, it is essentially objective to humans.
And you can tell they're psychopaths because they reject such things. ;) As I said - let Myers make that argument if he wishes. Then we can go on and have a nice conversation about self-evident truths, what explanation they can be of them, how to possibly ground them, etc. jstanley,
If not then why not? Logically, please.
'Guys guys wait a second if Christians think murder should be punishable by law then why are there Christians who minister to murderers in prison huh? CHECK AND MATE.'nullasalus
August 23, 2014
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JStanley - it is very clear that you do not understand much of the Christian faith and certainly have not read or understood the Bible.Dr JDD
August 23, 2014
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Strange that so many Christians who say they believe that abortion is murder are offering the murderers counseling instead of lobbying for their prosecution and punishment under law. If abortion is murder, then logically every women who has an abortion ought to be prosecuted on the exact same legal basis as mothers who commit infanticide or child homicide. If not then why not? Logically, please.jstanley01
August 23, 2014
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Strange that many people who want to be pro-choice deny the existence of free will.Joe
August 23, 2014
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Null, Perhaps he does. Let him make that argument, and we can then have a nice little discussion about what could possibly ground those truths or how to explain them. As I understand it, the fact that they are self evident is sufficient to assume objectivity. After all if something is self evident to all non psychopaths, it is essentially objective to humans. The introduction of a subjective divine Lawgiver seems to introduce into morality non self evident truths as moral truths. For instance, it does not seem self evidently true that it is right for any intelligent agent to drown children for the actions of their parents.velikovskys
August 23, 2014
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Excellent post nullasalus. Myers is looking at his "self proclaimed" objective moral code in the same mannar that Sam Harris's tried to lay out in his book, "The Moral Landscape," where everyone has their own private objective moral code. Imagine everyone having their own private language and demanding that people listen to them, it just doesn't follow. Even Micheal Ruse has said that Harris's book is, and I quote, "of little value."KRock
August 23, 2014
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We remind man that there is no lawmaker other than himself. - Jean Paul Sartre
Mung
August 22, 2014
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Myers deserves no praise for his opposition to Dawkins on the issue of the morality of (mandatory) aborting children with Down Syndrome
Why don't you say something I can disagree with? =P Someone the other day questioned why we have such a focus here at UD on atheism and materialism. Could it be because they provide the best examples of wrong-headed thinking, self-contradiction, cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy? And it is from this stance that the primary objections to ID seem to surface, so it's quite relevant to the purpose of this site (imo).Mung
August 22, 2014
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Acartia,
Increase the probability of survival and producing viable offspring. Now that I have defined benefit, please define morality.
Not so fast. All you defined there was an outcome. You gave me nothing - nada, nyet - as far as determining whether those outcomes were morally good or bad, just or not. And you're not going to be able to on a materialist atheist metaphysics.
I suspect that if you survey ten people, you will get ten different answers. Does that mean that morality is subjective?
Nope. Why in the world would you think so?
Right and wrong will always be a personal decision that is affected by societal pressures.
Not at all. No more than what is or isn't any other kind of fact will 'always be a personal decision that is affected by societal pressures', despite people's views and opinions about, say, scientific topics, varying often times from person to person. Either way, Murray is correct. It's right back to 'might makes right', and permutations thereof. So what's wrong with calling a spade a spade here? Wait, I asked about a 'wrong'. Will you be backing up your view with might?nullasalus
August 22, 2014
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I see that, when challenged, AB offers no support for his "social benefit" definition of morality. He/she just plucks whatever meaning he/she feels like, and keeps repeating the same materialist mantras over and over. Such mantras make it easy for his ilk to deceive themselves with emotional pleading and denialism instead of actually applying critical thought to their worldview. If right and wrong are always a personal decision, then there's nothing innately wrong with torturing children for personal pleasure, and if a person feels it is good, then it is good, in the only sense that anything can be good. For the materialist, it all boils down to might makes right.William J Murray
August 22, 2014
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N: "Actually, I do argue that, because I want to know what you mean by ‘benefit’." Increase the probability of survival and producing viable offspring. Now that I have defined benefit, please define morality. Is it absolute or is it conditional and open to subjective interpretation? Is killing always immoral? Is stealing always immoral? Are there some things that are more immoral than others? Is actively preventing the implantation of a fertilized ovum in a uterus immoral? Is lying always immoral? Is having pre-marital sex immoral? Is homosexuality immoral? Is assisted suicide immoral? Is suicide itself immoral? I suspect that if you survey ten people, you will get ten different answers. Does that mean that morality is subjective? Right and wrong will always be a personal decision that is affected by societal pressures. In any society, an overall consensus of right and wrong is agreed upon, even if it is not codified in laws and documented rules. There will always be sociopaths in society because, in small numbers, they can thrive. But no society can survive if the majority are sociopaths.Acartia_bogart
August 22, 2014
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Why is there observed centrality and commoness to different societies in what they deem right and wrong? THIS is the question you should be asking A_B and other atheists. Seriously, think about it. Why is there such common agreement despite randomness, chaos and disorder? This makes no sense in the framework of evolution. However, the Judeo-Christian worldview clearly says that a moral code is imprinted on the hearts and minds of mankind. The inherent moral code only makes sense in a worldview that can explain why we see this. Anyone who is truly honest with evolution and it's implications cannot escape the fact that such a unity of morality across societies is not expected.Dr JDD
August 22, 2014
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VJT, I'm probably totally off here but in what sense is Myers' moral code objective? How can it be?lpadron
August 22, 2014
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2. If one or more of the parties participating in an action does not consent, then the action is bad by default. So abortion is bad. 3. Actions that cause harm to others should be avoided. Abortion should be avoided. Myers seems to accept harm to self is somehow different from harm to others and vice versa. He also doesn't seem to grasp the difference between good/evil and right/wrong.Mung
August 22, 2014
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Acartia,
These have been observed to be essentially universal amongst different societies. Even cultures that practiced human sacrifices did so in a ritualistic fashion and did not condone it on an individual basis.
What does the condoning of a culture have to do with anything? And how many of those cultures, when they did have such restraints, did so with reference to religious rules? How many of them violated those rules repeatedly?
Nobody argues that humans don’t benefit by living in communities. Successful communities develop behaviours and rules that maximize these benefits. Those that develop behaviours and rules that are deleterious to community living to not survive.
Actually, I do argue that, because I want to know what you mean by 'benefit'. Objectively better or worse? According to what standard? I generally know what my objective judgments of 'superior' or 'inferior' are, what grounds them, etc, if I am in fact right. Where do you ground your 'superior' or 'inferior'? You get the same problem that you got with morality. Will you take a show of hands? Please do. We'll retroactively justify a whole lot of things that way - and the standard still won't be grounded in anything more than popular appeal. One more version of might makes right.nullasalus
August 22, 2014
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The morality of abortion is not scientific. The morality of abortion is morality by popular opinion. If the scientific community knew how to honestly look at the data, they would be standing four-square against abortion. The fact that they don't proves that they look at their science through the filter of popular opinion. This, of course, is the core problem being addressed by the ID community.Moose Dr
August 22, 2014
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AB said:
These have been observed to be essentially universal amongst different societies. Even cultures that practiced human sacrifices did so in a ritualistic fashion and did not condone it on an individual basis. Nobody argues that humans don’t benefit by living in communities. Successful communities develop behaviours and rules that maximize these benefits. Those that develop behaviours and rules that are deleterious to community living to not survive. Whether this means that morals are objective, I can’t say. Maybe their are other rules that work just as well.
1. Can you direct me to a definition of "morality" that supports your implication that it is about "maximizing social benefits"? 2. What benefits are you talking about? That's a pretty vague term. Can you be more specific?William J Murray
August 22, 2014
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N: ""The biggies, killing, stealing and lying are societal, not religious. According to who? And since when? And what does this have to do with anything?" These have been observed to be essentially universal amongst different societies. Even cultures that practiced human sacrifices did so in a ritualistic fashion and did not condone it on an individual basis. Nobody argues that humans don't benefit by living in communities. Successful communities develop behaviours and rules that maximize these benefits. Those that develop behaviours and rules that are deleterious to community living to not survive. Whether this means that morals are objective, I can't say. Maybe their are other rules that work just as well.Acartia_bogart
August 22, 2014
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