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My Final Post at UD

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Last evening I posted the following, and within a short period of time the Darwinbots descended upon it, challenging my expertise in two highly sophisticated areas of computational science, AI and FEA, fields in which I have the goods to demonstrate that I know what I am talking about. One commenter even asserted that the physics involved in an LS-DYNA simulation cannot be represented with mathematical precision. Yes they can. And it works.

At this point I decided that I have nothing further to offer. If some people cannot recognize that the information-processing systems encoded in biological systems defy naturalistic explanation and suggest a design inference, I cannot help them, and they are free to continue to pursue a phantom.

Farewell, and best wishes to all.

Gil

A number of years ago I developed an interest in AI (artificial intelligence) games-playing programming, and pursued a research project in that arena with so much success that I eventually lost interest, because there were no remaining human opponents to challenge. You can read about the project at my website. Real-world experience demonstrated the success of the project.

I now earn my living as a software engineer in aerospace R&D with a specialty in computer simulations, and as a result have pursued another interest: transient, dynamic, nonlinear, finite-element analysis (FEA) using a simulation program called LS-DYNA, originally developed in the 1970s at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory to simulate underground nuclear tests.

My company sent me away to LS-DYNA school after I volunteered, but I was warned that it would be really, really difficult, and that I had better bone up on the relevant math and engineering concepts. I took this advice to heart, and spent at least 200 hours preparing for the five-day course. Even with vast experience in software engineering and this preparation, it took everything I had to keep up with the instruction. The LS-DYNA course was a huge eye-opener concerning computer simulations and reality.

On the first day of the course our instructor, Dr. John D. Reid, who was absolutely fantastic, commented that it is really easy to make “cartoons” with LS-DYNA. (Dyna not only produces vast quantities of data, but generates AVI animations of the simulation.) By that he meant that without a thorough understanding, it is easy to make a Dyna simulation produce whatever results you like, that might look cool, but have no correlation with reality.

LS-DYNA has been under development for more than 30 years by the most brilliant scientists in the field, and its simulations have been compared repeatedly against real-world results. Material physical properties are well known, tested, and quantified (Young’s modulus, Poisson’s ratio, mass density, area moment of inertia, etc.), and the physics involved can be simulated and represented with absolute mathematical precision.

Yet with all of this, the results of a simulation must be scrutinized and evaluated against reality, because a single erroneous assumption or programming error can render the simulation completely invalid.

Which brings me to the point of this essay: The notion that any computer simulation of biological evolution has anything to do with reality is a complete fantasy. And the notion that any computer simulation of the earth’s climate into the distant future can be relied upon is an equivalent fantasy.

These computer simulations are cartoons.

Comments
----Hamlet: "I would like for onlookers who have read this far to know that I am a follower of Jesus who believes that ID is both bad science and bad theology." Ah yes, the design hating, emergence-loving, Creator-phobic Darwinist plays the old, "You'd-never-know-it-but-I'm-really-a-Christian" card. You guys are so funny, you really are.StephenB
April 26, 2009
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Alright Gil, check this out. Go to youtube and search for Foster Brooks on the Dean Martin roast of Don Rickles. If you can keep from laughing, then by all means, stay in seclusion. But if you get to giggling, you are on your honor to return to this fine group.Barrett
April 26, 2009
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Hamlet--Gil regularly engages in the logical fallacy of appeal to authority — sadly, his own authority. No, he does not do that. What he does is testify about his own experience. Personal or expert testimony-- and we should all accept that Gil is an expert on AI & simulations -- is not a logical fallacy. What you are attempting to do is to rebut his testimony through sophistry -- i.e. claim what he says should not be considered by improperly citing a debating rule -- rather than take issue with what he has seen and has done. Further, you misunderstand, or perhaps misconstrue Gil's point-- namely that far more detail is required than is found in computer evolution simulations.tribune7
April 26, 2009
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All of Hamlet's points are quite good, and Einstein's quote is quite relevant. As has been discussed elsewhere recently, models, no matter how thorough they are, cannot completely represent the world. Models are abstractions that, if done well can represent broad swath of nature, but never completely. Also, given that Gil does believe "the physics involved can be simulated and represented with absolute mathematical precision”, it is odd that he also declares that "The notion that any computer simulation of biological evolution has anything to do with reality is a complete fantasy." No matter what you think about where life came from or came to have the diversity it does, it is without a doubt true that some aspects of evolution concern primarily physics and chemistry, and as such are amenable to mathematical modeling, albeit necessarily imperfectly so, just as are the examples of physics modeling that Gill has declared can "be represented with absolute mathematical precision." It just doesn't seem to me that Gil's position is consistent - if mathematical modeling is as powerful as he says it is (and I am not doubting his credentials), then I don't see why some aspects of biology can't be modeled as well.hazel
April 26, 2009
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P.S.--Is that the response of a "Darwinbot," or of someone who a) has been in the computational trenches addressing nonlinear systems and b) thinks carefully about the differences in understanding and sophistication of the various IDers posting at UD? I just said that gpuccio and scordova understand something very important that Gil does not.Hamlet
April 26, 2009
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To extend #41, I will mention what IDers gpuccio and scordova understand much better than Gil, namely that the so-called "laws of nature" are themselves imprecise relations on empirical observations. Furthermore, the fact that mathematical language (formalism) is used in some sciences to express these relations does not mean that the sciences themselves have "absolute mathematical precision." This perhaps gives a bit better idea of what Einstein was driving at in the statement I quoted. I should mention also that computers store numbers only with limited precision, and that this is of great concern in nonlinear finite-element analysis. Understanding that the effects of slight numerical imprecision may be huge in simulation of some nonlinear systems is crucial to proper application of the LS-DYNA package. One must question Gil's authority when he writes that "the physics involved can be simulated and represented with absolute mathematical precision."Hamlet
April 26, 2009
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Here is an approximation to the first of my two comments in the deleted thread: Gil says that
the physics involved can be simulated and represented with absolute mathematical precision.
This is patently absurd. Einstein correctly observed,
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Hamlet
April 26, 2009
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Barry says,
And you speak with vast authority when it comes to computer simulation issues. Onlookers compare your authoritative and completely persuasive arguments to the “Oh huh” type of arguments on offer from the other side..., and they come away knowing the truth.
Gil regularly engages in the logical fallacy of appeal to authority -- sadly, his own authority. In my last comment in the deleted thread, I observed that he had not gotten to the putative point until the next-to-last paragraph. The opening post was almost entirely about Gil and his authority. Therefore it was entirely appropriate for me to respond by challenging his claim to authority. Gil deleted that challenge, and resorted to labeling me a "Darwinbot." Now UD teammates who have no idea what I wrote are piling on. One says, "Remember, these people are sick, spiritually sick." I would like for onlookers who have read this far to know that I am a follower of Jesus who believes that ID is both bad science and bad theology. What do you make of people who resort to name-calling when they cannot control a discussion? I offered Gil a debate of simulated evolution, should he evince greater interest in that topic than himself. Instead he deleted the thread, and bade farewell to UD.Hamlet
April 26, 2009
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Spitfire, Allen can be ornery but no more so than the rest of us. And his posts are generally substantive and interesting.tribune7
April 26, 2009
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Well done, Barry :-) Gil, come back. We miss you!tribune7
April 26, 2009
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Gil, I was a lurker. Your post make a difference to me. I'm not in your shoes, but can understand how it gets old seeing senseless arguments being made especially by many not as qualified(including myself). You know, even Christ left the crowds to get away at times. And even he lost patience with crowds of unbelievers. Besides their walks from town to town I wonder how often Christ walked into the mountains on his own for peaceful quiet and meditation. There is a reason for the Sabbath. Thank you Gil for you work here. I've enjoyed it. I'm sure I speak for many readers who never commented. I speak as someone who once blindly believed in evolution.DATCG
April 26, 2009
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Barry writes,
We get 6,000 to 8,000 unique visitors a day, 99% of whom will never leave a comment. These lurkers are the audience for whom we write.
That's very interesting, and more than I would have expected. I'm glad I have that large an audience. :) More seriously, in a post about moderation on March 12, Barry wrote,
We have no interest in censoring viewpoints, because we believe ID is true and consequently in any full and fair debate we will win — and if we don’t win we either need to learn to debate better or change our position. ... Our role is not to censor ideas but to provide a forum where hard questions can be discussed calmly, fully, and fairly, and we trust that when that happens truth will prevail.
I agree with all that is being said here about the value of discussion. I do my best to put my best arguments forward, and to describe my beliefs as well as I can. At least some of the critiques I get inspire me to respond, and doing so helps me both examine and defend my understandings. I am confident that many lurkers find something of value in what I have to say.hazel
April 26, 2009
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Gil, A moment when I am really disappointed in the reactions of ignorant people is not a good time to make a decision about throwing in the towel. Remember, these people are sick, spiritually sick. I usually do not get upset with people who are physically sick. The question is, "How can I be helpful to them?"glennj
April 26, 2009
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I wasn't making an argument in 22 - I was merely making the point that there is a difference between disagreeing with someone and attacking them personally.hazel
April 26, 2009
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Gil, please read Barrett at 28 and reconsider. Yes, you will get pounded by our opponents and even when you respond with sweet reason, they will not change their minds. But you must keep in mind that changing our opponents’ minds is not the purpose of this blog. We get 6,000 to 8,000 unique visitors a day, 99% of whom will never leave a comment. These lurkers are the audience for whom we write. And you speak with vast authority when it comes to computer simulation issues. Onlookers compare your authoritative and completely persuasive arguments to the “Oh huh” type of arguments on offer from the other side (see Hazel at 22, for instance), and they come away knowing the truth. “Do not be weary in well doing, for in due season you will reap if you faint not.” Also: “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” Please do not do nothing. Your loss is a great blow to UD and I hope you will come back.Barry Arrington
April 26, 2009
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SpitfireIXA, MacNeill has not crossed any bounds of civility. He will remain with us until he does. He argues tough, even brutally, but I have not seen him be mean.Barry Arrington
April 26, 2009
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Trib 7 re your [24]: Nakashima has been unbooted, and Mirrortothesun is no longer with us.Barry Arrington
April 26, 2009
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Gil, Your leaving is a loss to this forum. Although you've evidently made up your mind about this I hope you reconsider. As a software developer myself, I have found your posts insightful and respectful of opposing views, even while vehemently disagreeing with them. It is a shame that discourse has become this uncivilized. I have certainly seen it on the opposing forums. Godspeed, sir.toc
April 26, 2009
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Mr Mirrortothesun, Your comment appears designed to be an incitement. Please retract and apologize.Nakashima
April 26, 2009
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Gil, certainly you haven't been posting on this weblog to convince the shuttered of a design inference. Now that is pursuing a phantom. I suggest you consider us lurkers who read your stuff and nod in agreement or at least get to pondering something we might not otherwise. That's your audience, really. And that should be good enough.Barrett
April 26, 2009
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I second tribune7. Nakashima gone, but MacNeill (who sounds suspiciously like Baghdad Bob) remains.SpitfireIXA
April 26, 2009
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hazel, You may disagree with Gil on computer simulations and biology but you cannot support your position. IOW your disagreement is personal and not based on anything except ideology.Joseph
April 26, 2009
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Gil, I too understand your frustration. But unlike you I want a fight because it has become painfully obvious that is the only way to "resolve" this issue- let natural selection sort it out...Joseph
April 26, 2009
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Barry, here is the problem with the mod policy. You boot Nakashima who has been challenging but generally respectful, yet Mirrortothesun remains.tribune7
April 26, 2009
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Someone's widdle feelings get hurt? Maybe this is for the best then.Mirrortothesun
April 26, 2009
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kf writes,
And, the shamefully disrespectful conduct of your detractors is plain for us to all see.
Well, no, it's not plain to see, because the comments were deleted. But I remember reading the first few responses to Gil's post before it was retracted and I don't remember seeing anything "shamefully disrespectful." Of course many of us would disagree with Gil's conclusion that "the notion that any computer simulation of biological evolution has anything to do with reality is a complete fantasy," but disagreement with someone is not an attack on the person. I respect Gil's decision to no longer post here - all of us are here voluntarily, and can have many reasons for deciding to no longer participate - but unless there is evidence to the contrary I don't think it's fair to blame those who made comments for driving him away.hazel
April 26, 2009
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PS: Maybe I need to paraphrase Machiavelli: >>Political disorders are like wasting diseases: at the first they are hard to diagnose but easy to cure. When, at length, for want of prompt diagnosis and proper treatment, the course of the disease becomes obvious to all, it is then far too late to cure.>> [The Prince] As the Greeks said [and my Mom so often cited] "a word to the wise . . . "kairosfocus
April 26, 2009
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Gil: Please reconsider. Maybe, take a break to recover from the impact of the painful exchanges that seem to unfortunately dominate this area. (And note that the attack to the man is a strong indicator of weakness on the merits.) Then, recovered in mind and heart, PLEASE return. But, if you decide that enough is enough and the point on the merits has been adequately made, I understand. And, the shamefully disrespectful conduct of your detractors is plain for us to all see. (The triumphs of ideological rhetoric of derogation over respectful dialogue on the merits is no commendation to those who so triumph by uncivil conduct. And, the now increasingly common reducing of public discourse to shouting-down and slander does not bode well for our civlisation. Already, vultures are circling and many more are rapidly flying in for the anticipated feast. We are failing the France 1930s -- a house divided cannot stand -- test, with many heirs of Hitler rising on the near and far horizons. But then, Mrs Tuchmann was right on the ever recurrent march of stubborn, suicidal folly; from Troy to Rehoboam to today.) However, we at UD should never forget your closing late cut to the boundary for six [or homer to the pointed out location in the stands; using the terms of "your" ballgame]:
If some people cannot recognize that the information-processing systems encoded in biological systems defy naturalistic explanation and suggest a design inference, I cannot help them, and they are free to continue to pursue a phantom . . . . [As] Dr. John D. Reid . . . commented . . . it is really easy to make “cartoons” with LS-DYNA. (Dyna not only produces vast quantities of data, but generates AVI animations of the simulation.) By that he meant that without a thorough understanding, it is easy to make a Dyna simulation produce whatever results you like, that might look cool, but have no correlation with reality . . . . The notion that any computer simulation of biological evolution has anything to do with reality is a complete fantasy. And the notion that any computer simulation of the earth’s climate into the distant future can be relied upon is an equivalent fantasy.
Well said, and I hope that your detractors take the rebuke to heart. GEM of TKI PS: A recent exchange in this blog on Weasel is aptly illustrative of the problems also; anticipating a possible rhetorical tactic -- and not claiming that my case is anywhere near as outrageous as the one outlined above. (For shame!) [Interested onlookers may wish to cf my summary of the matter on the merits here.]kairosfocus
April 26, 2009
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Gil, I understand your frustration. This is what can happen when a forum decides to become a flame pit where every unfulfilled, wannabe, mightabeen, nobody is encouraged to vent his bilious, ignorant spleen to his heart's content. "The one thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history." anonymous? Gil Dodgen will always be welcome at my weblog. jadavison.wordpress.comJohnADavison
April 26, 2009
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Gil, I do hope you reconsider. I have the greatest esteem for you and for your deep contributions, which go even beyond your deep knowledge in your fields, and reveal an original and creative mind and a beautiful personality. If you can, please stay with us.gpuccio
April 26, 2009
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