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	<title>Comments on: Minimal Complexity Relegates Life Origin Models To Fanciful Speculation</title>
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		<title>By: JGuy</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/minimal-complexity-relegates-life-origin-models-to-wishful-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-339773</link>
		<dc:creator>JGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mung @ 7
&lt;blockquote&gt;Can it be said to be a prediction of ID that any minimally complex form of life will exhibit irreducible complexity?

Can this prediction be falsified?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There&#039;s kinda no need for a prediction after thoughtfully considering the terms you&#039;re using:

&quot;minimally complex&quot;

&quot;irreducible complexity&quot;

:P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mung @ 7</p>
<blockquote><p>Can it be said to be a prediction of ID that any minimally complex form of life will exhibit irreducible complexity?</p>
<p>Can this prediction be falsified?</p></blockquote>
<p>There&#8217;s kinda no need for a prediction after thoughtfully considering the terms you&#8217;re using:</p>
<p>&#8220;minimally complex&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;irreducible complexity&#8221;</p>
<p> <img src='http://www.uncommondescent.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: CannuckianYankee</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/minimal-complexity-relegates-life-origin-models-to-wishful-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-339705</link>
		<dc:creator>CannuckianYankee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 23:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9598#comment-339705</guid>
		<description>I must say that with this Chapter, several before it, and the following 3 chapters, we get the real meat of Meyer&#039;s book. 

It&#039;s interesting that we&#039;re covering the book one chapter at a time, when his argument overall is found in several chapters, which really can&#039;t be separated in such a way without losing some momentum in the overall argument.  

Start with the chapter on the inability of chance to account for complexity - i.e., the number of dice rolls necessary for chance processes to approach the complexity of the cell would outnumber the particles in the universe several fold, etc.. - combined with the pattern of Darwinian arguments failing to address and/or explain the necessary pre-existence of complex specified information to account for the DNA enigma, and the recognition that all current popular Darwinian arguments and models presume the existence of such information without accounting for it, are staggering blows to the whole Darwinian paradigm.

The only explanation that accounts for the DNA enigma is purposeful design.  That we see evidence of complexity developing out of human purposeful design is revealing.  We are well past the genesis of a strong evidential hypothesis for design.  All the inferential evidences bearing in on these issues point strongly to purposeful design, and not to anything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must say that with this Chapter, several before it, and the following 3 chapters, we get the real meat of Meyer&#8217;s book. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting that we&#8217;re covering the book one chapter at a time, when his argument overall is found in several chapters, which really can&#8217;t be separated in such a way without losing some momentum in the overall argument.  </p>
<p>Start with the chapter on the inability of chance to account for complexity &#8211; i.e., the number of dice rolls necessary for chance processes to approach the complexity of the cell would outnumber the particles in the universe several fold, etc.. &#8211; combined with the pattern of Darwinian arguments failing to address and/or explain the necessary pre-existence of complex specified information to account for the DNA enigma, and the recognition that all current popular Darwinian arguments and models presume the existence of such information without accounting for it, are staggering blows to the whole Darwinian paradigm.</p>
<p>The only explanation that accounts for the DNA enigma is purposeful design.  That we see evidence of complexity developing out of human purposeful design is revealing.  We are well past the genesis of a strong evidential hypothesis for design.  All the inferential evidences bearing in on these issues point strongly to purposeful design, and not to anything else.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/minimal-complexity-relegates-life-origin-models-to-wishful-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-339500</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9598#comment-339500</guid>
		<description>Seversky,

If the cell didn&#039;t spring into being fully formed, and the science says that most of the molecules would chemically break down very rapidly unless protected inside of a cell, what do you propose?

Remember, pre-biotic natural selection is a contradiction in terms...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seversky,</p>
<p>If the cell didn&#8217;t spring into being fully formed, and the science says that most of the molecules would chemically break down very rapidly unless protected inside of a cell, what do you propose?</p>
<p>Remember, pre-biotic natural selection is a contradiction in terms&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: bornagain77</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/minimal-complexity-relegates-life-origin-models-to-wishful-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-339350</link>
		<dc:creator>bornagain77</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9598#comment-339350</guid>
		<description>Mung asks:
&lt;q cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;&quot;Can it be said to be a prediction of ID that any minimally complex form of life will exhibit irreducible complexity?

Can this prediction be falsified?”&lt;/q&gt;

It can to be said to be irreducibly complex and seeking to see if it can be falsified is the foundation of a null hypothesis:

William Dembski calls the DNA, RNA, Protein interlock problem : &lt;strong&gt;&quot;Irreducible Complexity on steroids&quot;.&lt;/strong&gt;

The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel - Null Hypothesis For Information Generation - 2009
To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: &quot;Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.&quot; &lt;strong&gt;A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis.&lt;/strong&gt;
http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf
http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag

Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information - David L Abel and Jack T Trevors:
Excerpt: Genetic algorithms instruct sophisticated biological organization. Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC). FSC alone provides algorithmic instruction...No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization..&lt;strong&gt;.It is only in researching the pre-RNA world that the problem of single-stranded metabolically functional sequencing of ribonucleotides (or their analogs) becomes acute.&lt;/strong&gt;
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-2-29.pdf

As well there is a One Million Dollar Prize to offered for anyone who falsfies this prediction!

&quot;The Origin-of-Life Prize&quot; Oct. 2009 ® (hereafter called &quot;the Prize&quot;) will be awarded for proposing a highly plausible mechanism for the spontaneous rise of genetic instructions in nature sufficient to give rise to life.
http://www.us.net/life/index.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mung asks:<br />
<q cite="">&#8220;Can it be said to be a prediction of ID that any minimally complex form of life will exhibit irreducible complexity?</p>
<p>Can this prediction be falsified?”</q></p>
<p>It can to be said to be irreducibly complex and seeking to see if it can be falsified is the foundation of a null hypothesis:</p>
<p>William Dembski calls the DNA, RNA, Protein interlock problem : <strong>&#8220;Irreducible Complexity on steroids&#8221;.</strong></p>
<p>The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel &#8211; Null Hypothesis For Information Generation &#8211; 2009<br />
To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: &#8220;Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.&#8221; <strong>A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis.</strong><br />
<a href="http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf</a><br />
<a href="http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag" rel="nofollow">http://mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/ag</a></p>
<p>Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information &#8211; David L Abel and Jack T Trevors:<br />
Excerpt: Genetic algorithms instruct sophisticated biological organization. Three qualitative kinds of sequence complexity exist: random (RSC), ordered (OSC), and functional (FSC). FSC alone provides algorithmic instruction&#8230;No empirical evidence exists of either RSC of OSC ever having produced a single instance of sophisticated biological organization..<strong>.It is only in researching the pre-RNA world that the problem of single-stranded metabolically functional sequencing of ribonucleotides (or their analogs) becomes acute.</strong><br />
<a href="http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-2-29.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.biomedcentral.com/c.....2-2-29.pdf</a></p>
<p>As well there is a One Million Dollar Prize to offered for anyone who falsfies this prediction!</p>
<p>&#8220;The Origin-of-Life Prize&#8221; Oct. 2009 ® (hereafter called &#8220;the Prize&#8221;) will be awarded for proposing a highly plausible mechanism for the spontaneous rise of genetic instructions in nature sufficient to give rise to life.<br />
<a href="http://www.us.net/life/index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.us.net/life/index.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: avocationist</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/minimal-complexity-relegates-life-origin-models-to-wishful-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-339335</link>
		<dc:creator>avocationist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 08:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9598#comment-339335</guid>
		<description>&quot;

Can it be said to be a prediction of ID that any minimally complex form of life will exhibit irreducible complexity?

Can this prediction be falsified?&quot;

We could find a life form that is not irreducibly complex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221;</p>
<p>Can it be said to be a prediction of ID that any minimally complex form of life will exhibit irreducible complexity?</p>
<p>Can this prediction be falsified?&#8221;</p>
<p>We could find a life form that is not irreducibly complex.</p>
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		<title>By: Mung</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/minimal-complexity-relegates-life-origin-models-to-wishful-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-339322</link>
		<dc:creator>Mung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9598#comment-339322</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Just add time and chance…&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Time adds consistency, and chance adds flavor. What it is that adds the nutritional value of this gruel has yet to be specified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Just add time and chance…</p></blockquote>
<p>Time adds consistency, and chance adds flavor. What it is that adds the nutritional value of this gruel has yet to be specified.</p>
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		<title>By: Upright BiPed</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/minimal-complexity-relegates-life-origin-models-to-wishful-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-339297</link>
		<dc:creator>Upright BiPed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9598#comment-339297</guid>
		<description>Ha! Yes...But lets all hope that Allen lives a full life with his wife and children though.

(and figures it out before he&#039;s dead)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha! Yes&#8230;But lets all hope that Allen lives a full life with his wife and children though.</p>
<p>(and figures it out before he&#8217;s dead)</p>
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		<title>By: bornagain77</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/minimal-complexity-relegates-life-origin-models-to-wishful-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-339295</link>
		<dc:creator>bornagain77</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9598#comment-339295</guid>
		<description>Upright your link reminds me of this quote:

&lt;strong&gt; &quot;A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light,&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;strong&gt; but rather because its opponents eventually die&lt;/strong&gt; and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.&quot; 
Max Planck</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Upright your link reminds me of this quote:</p>
<p><strong> &#8220;A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light,</strong><strong> but rather because its opponents eventually die</strong> and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.&#8221;<br />
Max Planck</p>
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		<title>By: Upright BiPed</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/minimal-complexity-relegates-life-origin-models-to-wishful-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-339291</link>
		<dc:creator>Upright BiPed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9598#comment-339291</guid>
		<description>BA77, 

In following a metaphysic that is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/civil-discourse-not-tolerated-by-darwinist/comment-page-2/#comment-339187&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;not falsifiable&lt;/a&gt;, then arguments from improbability are meaningless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BA77, </p>
<p>In following a metaphysic that is <a href="http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/civil-discourse-not-tolerated-by-darwinist/comment-page-2/#comment-339187" rel="nofollow">not falsifiable</a>, then arguments from improbability are meaningless.</p>
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		<title>By: bornagain77</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/minimal-complexity-relegates-life-origin-models-to-wishful-speculation/comment-page-1/#comment-339286</link>
		<dc:creator>bornagain77</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/?p=9598#comment-339286</guid>
		<description>Seversky is it really that unreasonable of a proposition for you to accept for life appearing &quot;instantaneously&quot;, especially since the odds of life forming by material processes are &quot;astronomical? 

In fact Seversky, Hoyle&#039;s 1 in 10^40,000 number has actually been revised upwards:

The probabilities against life &quot;spontaneously&quot; originating are simply overwhelming:

Signature in the Cell - Book Review - Ken Peterson
Excerpt: the “simplest extant cell, Mycoplasma genitalium — a tiny bacterium that inhabits the human urinary tract — requires ‘only’ 482 proteins to perform its necessary functions (562,000 bases of DNA…to assemble those proteins).” ,,, amino acids have to congregate in a definite specified sequence in order to make something that “works.” First of all they have to form a “peptide” bond and this seems to only happen about half the time in experiments. Thus, the probability of building a chain of 150 amino acids containing only peptide links is about one chance in 10 to the 45th power.
In addition, another requirement for living things is that the amino acids must be the “left-handed” version. But in “abiotic amino-acid production” the right- and left-handed versions are equally created. Thus, to have only left-handed, only peptide bonds between amino acids in a chain of 150 would be about one chance in 10 to the 90th. Moreover, in order to create a functioning protein the “amino acids, like letters in a meaningful sentence, must link up in functionally specified sequential arrangements.” It turns out that the probability for this is about one in 10 to the 74th. Thus, the probability of one functional protein of 150 amino acids forming by random chance is (1 in) 10 to the 164th. If we assume some minimally complex cell requires 250 different proteins then the probability of this arrangement happening purely by chance is one in 10 to the 164th multiplied by itself 250 times or one in 10 to the 41,000th power. http://www.spectrummagazine.org/reviews/book_reviews/2009/10/06/signature_cell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seversky is it really that unreasonable of a proposition for you to accept for life appearing &#8220;instantaneously&#8221;, especially since the odds of life forming by material processes are &#8220;astronomical? </p>
<p>In fact Seversky, Hoyle&#8217;s 1 in 10^40,000 number has actually been revised upwards:</p>
<p>The probabilities against life &#8220;spontaneously&#8221; originating are simply overwhelming:</p>
<p>Signature in the Cell &#8211; Book Review &#8211; Ken Peterson<br />
Excerpt: the “simplest extant cell, Mycoplasma genitalium — a tiny bacterium that inhabits the human urinary tract — requires ‘only’ 482 proteins to perform its necessary functions (562,000 bases of DNA…to assemble those proteins).” ,,, amino acids have to congregate in a definite specified sequence in order to make something that “works.” First of all they have to form a “peptide” bond and this seems to only happen about half the time in experiments. Thus, the probability of building a chain of 150 amino acids containing only peptide links is about one chance in 10 to the 45th power.<br />
In addition, another requirement for living things is that the amino acids must be the “left-handed” version. But in “abiotic amino-acid production” the right- and left-handed versions are equally created. Thus, to have only left-handed, only peptide bonds between amino acids in a chain of 150 would be about one chance in 10 to the 90th. Moreover, in order to create a functioning protein the “amino acids, like letters in a meaningful sentence, must link up in functionally specified sequential arrangements.” It turns out that the probability for this is about one in 10 to the 74th. Thus, the probability of one functional protein of 150 amino acids forming by random chance is (1 in) 10 to the 164th. If we assume some minimally complex cell requires 250 different proteins then the probability of this arrangement happening purely by chance is one in 10 to the 164th multiplied by itself 250 times or one in 10 to the 41,000th power. <a href="http://www.spectrummagazine.org/reviews/book_reviews/2009/10/06/signature_cell" rel="nofollow">http://www.spectrummagazine.or.....ature_cell</a></p>
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