In a comment to a prior post material.infantacy writes [remaining post is all his]:
If one believes A = A only some of the time, and that A = !A is true for some circumstances, whether they’re referring to logical propositions or a construct of physical reality, then that person is either deluded or devious.
I recently wasted an entire evening trying to reason with someone that (analogously) two flips of a coin could yield a heads and a tails in two distinct ways (HT or TH) giving the combination a 50% chance of success over either HH or TT. This person had already decided that the two combinations were identical, and no amount of demonstration would convince her otherwise. Attempts to show proof yielded blank stares or more illogical protests. It became clear that this person had placed an irrational world view as the stake in a debating game against me. After the debate got started, our discussion had nothing to do with discovering truth, nor illuminating each other’s views, rather a win-at-all-costs attitude emerged as the keystone of the discussion. She was playing a game, and one that she plays every day in life: truth is what you can make others believe, and not anything that can be determined by universal principles. I was subject to any objection that appeared to provide the slightest bit of wiggle room for the person’s argument, and an utter lack of willingness to engage my points on their merits. For every advance I made in my arguments, she doubled down and protested all the more. Her arguments became more long-winded and rambling in an attempt to filibuster, seeking to derail the heart of the discussion by finding some small weakness in my peripheral knowledge, to try and gain the upper hand.
After many revolutions of circular arguments and backwards reasoning on her part, when it became all the more clear that her protests would yield no fruit, she lost all interest in the matter and shifted to an unrelated argument. What I found was a person impervious to learning much of anything, but who was apparently pretty skilled at dishonest debating tactics. This is a person who’s psyche is comprised almost entirely of its own ego, who desires no real learning or illumination, but merely an advantage. The word “shameless” comes to mind, and it’s entirely apropos.
This is a world view issue. This is what occurs in people who are either ignorant to their own biases and unable to determine objective reality from their own imaginings, or they have decided deliberately that truth is decided by belief — that ‘truth’ is merely what one can make others believe. This was the worldview I was up against in the aforementioned argument, as far as I’ve been able to tell. And it wasn’t the first time something like this had occurred. I’ve seen something similar here over the time I’ve been posting.
It seems like a good idea to take a breather from having thoughtful commenters waste countless hours and words arguing against folks who need to win at all costs, to gain an advantage, who’ve already abandoned any form truth by defining it out of existence, who’ve already decided that zero concession is their policy. The goal of so many UD interlocutors, so it seems, has been to urinate on the walls here on practically any post, and to distract from arguments with all manner of objections, usually peripheral ones, or objections that intentionally distract from the nature of the argument being made. Of course this isn’t always the case. I’ve seen reasonable arguments by ID opponents from time to time. But they’re totally overshadowed by ill-willed attempts at obfuscation. It’s pretty difficult to formulate a good argument for something. It’s quite simple to merely object. Practically all I see from opponents, with few exceptions, is one objection after another, and never an attempt to build a positive case in such a way that it could actually be challenged. Yes, I’m speaking in generalities.
As far as I’m concerned, I’m a guest in someone’s house here. I’ve no “right” to be here. It’s not a free speech issue. I’ve no right to act in any way that suits me, nor protest too much if I’m asked to leave due to ritual impertinence. Anyone who finds the atmosphere here less than amiable is free, even encouraged, to move along. This isn’t a public park. For those who enjoy endlessly debating Darwinists, there are probably 10^6 or more places to have flame wars and troll hunts on the internet. For my part, I’m glad this site isn’t just another one of those. At some point, good conversations depend on participants who can agree about foundational things, or who have a willingness to learn. It’s then that differences in opinion or outlook become illuminating. I’ll be interested to see if more pro-ID or agnostic lurkers who were otherwise intimidated from posting here show up over time. It’ll also be entertaining to watch the slough of sock puppets come through over the next couple of weeks.