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Methodological naturalism: Science enabler or science stopper? A response to Dr. Elizabeth Liddle.

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In a recent thread which has attracted a lot of lively comment, Dr. Elizabeth Liddle (a highly respected critic of Intelligent Design who surely needs no introduction here) mounted a vigorous defense of methodological naturalism (“MN”). She began by developing her view of the way science works, in a post on the thread:

[T]he idea that any scientific theory stops science is completely false. Science never stops, and a successfully supported hypothesis is a trigger for more research, not less.

In a subsequent post, Dr. Liddle then proceeded to explain why her view of science necessitates the adoption of methodological naturalism:

Yes, rejection of “MN” is religious, for a very simple reason.

It is not possible to investigate a non-material cause. With “methodological naturalism” we keep on investigating. With “methodological non-naturalism” you may reach a place you have to stop, because you’ve met the “non-material” part.

That stoppage is the religious rejection of “MN”.

I’ll repeat what I just posted elsewhere: “MN” is not a limitation on science. It is quite the opposite. It’s what leads us to keep searching. Rejecting “MN” is what poses limitations on investigation, not the acceptance of MN.

Dr. Liddle elaborated her views in another post on the same thread:

At the point at which you say: “this is not a material cause” you stop investigating. That’s all methodological non-materialism is – it’s stopping when you get to a bit you can’t explain by a material mechanism, and saying “something non-material did this bit”. Methodological materialism is not stopping…

I’d like to make a few comments at this point:

The Contingency Of The Ongoing Success Of Science

It is a contingent matter that we live in a universe where science is possible at all, even if we adopt a fairly minimal definition of “science,” such as: “the systematic tabulation [by intelligent beings] of observed correlations between various kinds of events, in a way that can be described mathematically.” The word “mathematical” is of critical importance here. The observation that the seasons go round in an annual cycle is not science. Nor is the observation that an animal will die if you slash its jugular vein. Both of these observed regularities have been of great practical use to human beings; and indeed, humans could not survive in a world without natural regularities which they could rely on. However, human beings could certainly survive quite well in a world in which they were aware of natural regularities, but were unable to describe them in mathematical language. In fact, for most of human history, that is precisely how we have lived.

I can make the same point in another way. Imagine an alternative world in which there were natural regularities, but in which no natural phenomena could be described by simple equations such as v = u + at (the first equation for uniform accelerated motion), or T^2 = K.(r^3) (Kepler’s third law). The mathematics required to describe natural phenomena in such a world might be too complex for the beings of limited intelligence who happened to live in it; hence science would forever elude them, although their technology might be quite good.

It is also a contingent matter that we live in a universe in which scientific enterprise can go on and on, with no end in sight. One can certainly imagine ways in which science might fizzle out. If we lived in a world of very limited variety, we might be able to fully describe its workings after only 100 years of scientific observations – and after that, we’d have to do something else to keep ourselves amused. Or we might hit a brick wall in scientific research for financial reasons: increased spending on scientific research might yield sharply diminishing scientific returns, so that after discovering the first few scientific laws, we found that the discovery of further laws rapidly became increasingly unaffordable.

So when Dr. Liddle writes that “Science never stops, and a successfully supported hypothesis is a trigger for more research, not less,” my reply is: “Does it have to be that way? I think not.” In 1997, John Horgan wrote a best-selling book titled, The End of Science, in which he addressed the questions: Have all the big questions been answered? Has all the knowledge worth pursuing become known? Interestingly, some of the scientists he interviewed were inclined to answer these questions in the affirmative.

Science, then, may well have an end, whether we like it or not.

All Scientific Explanations Have To Stop Somewhere

The next point to consider is that all scientific explanations have to stop somewhere – otherwise we get an infinite regress of explanations, which doesn’t explain anything. Of course, Intelligent Design critics are perfectly aware of this point, which is why they often raise the objection: “Who designed the Designer?”

So even if Dr. Liddle is correct in maintaining that a non-material cause is a science-stopper, we have to ask ourselves: “Is there a better place at which we should stop asking scientific questions than the point where the Immaterial Designer supposedly makes contact with Nature?” And my answer to that question is: “If you think there’s a better point at which to stop the process of scientific enquiry, then prove it’s better, by demonstrating to me that going beyond that point is scientifically more productive than simply taking the Designer’s alleged point of interface with Nature as a ‘given.’ After all, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.”

Jefferson’s Deity And The Cosmos As A Simulation: How Dr. Liddle Confuses “Non-Material” With “Non-Natural”

Dr. Liddle writes that “It is not possible to investigate a non-material cause.” But even if the Designer of Nature were a material cause, the material processes underlying His acts of design would still elude scientific investigation, simply because He is outside Nature, which means that the workings of His body will forever elude us.

President Thomas Jefferson firmly believed in a Designer of the laws of the universe, even though he believed that the universe had always existed. As he wrote in his letter to John Adams, of April 11, 1823:

… I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in it’s parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it’s composition…We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power to maintain the Universe in it’s course and order…Some early Christians indeed have believed in the coeternal pre-existence of both the Creator and the world, without changing their relation of cause and effect.

At the same time, Jefferson regarded the notion of an immaterial Deity as utterly nonsensical. He explained his theological position in a letter to John Adams, dated August 15, 1820:

When once we quit the basis of sensation, all is in the wind. To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart.

Thus Jefferson envisaged the Deity as an embodied Being, eternally maintaining the universe in its law-governed order. If we let “Physics A” refer to the laws of our cosmos, and “Physics B” denote the laws governing the body of Jefferson’s Deity, which exists outside our cosmos, then it follows that since God is independent of the cosmos, our scientists will never be able to investigate Physics B, and hence will never understand the material processes underlying the Designer of Nature.

Or we can put it another way, and imagine that the entire cosmos – by which I mean everything in reality (inside or outside the visible universe) which is subject to the laws of Nature uncovered by our scientists – is part of a giant simulation, which was created as a science experiment by intelligent beings who are not subject to these laws that they have set up for the simulation. In that case, once again, the Designers of Nature would be material beings, but their materiality would be of a different sort to our own, as they would be subject to completely different laws, which are unobservable to our scientists, as they have no way of accessing the world outside the simulation.

What this tells us, then, is that Dr. Liddle is badly confused when she argues that an immaterial Designer would be a science-stopper. The problem here is not the immateriality of the Designer, but His existing outside the natural order which He has created i.e. the Designer’s transcendence, rather than His immateriality.

Rejection Of Methodological Naturalism Is Not Religious

Even if the rejection of methodological naturalism should prove to be a “science-stopper,” as Dr. Liddle argues, it still would not follow that “rejection of ‘MN’ is religious,” as she claims. In order to show that, one would have to show that rejection of methodological naturalism entails the existence of a Designer Who is also a suitable object of worship. Dr. Liddle has not supplied any argument to this effect. Her use of the term “religious” is pejorative; it demeans the serious philosophical arguments put forward by those thinkers whose vision of science is different from her own.

A Designer Of Nature Can Always Explain More Than Methodological Naturalism

In any case, the scope of phenomena that can be explained by postulating an Intelligent Designer of Nature will always be larger than the scope of phenomena that can be explained within the framework of methodological naturalism. The reason is simple: scientific explanations which accept the constraints of methodological naturalism are bound to take the laws of Nature for granted; whereas scientific explanations which go beyond the constraints imposed by methodological naturalism are capable in principle of explaining the laws of Nature.

The Failure Of Pythagoreanism

I might add that since the laws of Nature are immaterial abstractions, the current practice of halting our scientific explanations when we arrive at the ultimate laws of Nature is tantamount to stopping one’s demand for explanations at something immaterial.

Laws are abstractions. They are even less like material entities than an incorporeal Designer. It is odd that Dr. Liddle has no objection to the enterprise of explaining the world in terms of abstract mathematics, but objects vigorously to explaining the world as the product of a Designer Who wanted to make a cosmos fit for intelligent life. So I would like to ask Dr. Liddle, “Why do you consider an explanation of the cosmos as the product of an immaterial Intelligent Agent to be even worse than an explanation of the cosmos as the product of abstract mathematical entitles like numbers and forms, as Pythagoras thought it was? Surely an immaterial Intelligent Agent can do a better job of generating the cosmos than the number 4.”

Could A Designer of Nature Be Used To Explain Anything And Everything?

A hint as to why Dr. Liddle finds Intelligent Design explanations so unconvincing can be found in a lengthy but interesting comment she made on the same thread, in which she argued that the notion of an immaterial Designer is scientifically vicious, because it could be used to explain anything and everything, and that an explanation of that sort really explains nothing:

OK, let me try this a different way:

If you postulate an invisible intelligent power who can do anything, without leaving any trace of the tools of his/her trade, nor presence, apart from the artefacts s/he leaves behind, there is nothing you can’t explain. Giraffe recurrent laryngeal nerve? No problem, designer wanted it that way. Human female pelvis? Who are we to judge the designer? Hyena reproduction? Well perhaps the designer hated hyenas. Parasites that kill children? Well, perhaps the designer likes parasites more than children. Nested hierarchies? Well, s/he just liked designing that way. No bird lungs for mammals? Well, why shouldn’t s/he try something different, and why shouldn’t s/he keep those bird lungs strictly for the animals that look as though they descended in a particular lineage. In fact, why shouldn’t the designer make the world look as though it evolved?

That’s why a non-material, uncharacterised designer is not an explanation. An explanation that explains everything explains nothing.

However, if you were to postulate an actual material designer, that would be something else – we could actually draw some conclusions about the designer – his/her enthusiasms, his/her strengths, his/her weaknesses, his/her assembly techniques, his/her testing protocols etc.

Then we might have an actual explanation from the ID postulate.

But to do this work, IDists would have to postulate a material designer. Without doing so, none of this work is possible.

That’s the sense in which commitment to non-material causes stops science. Scientists don’t have to believe there are no non-material causes to do science. It’s just that the tools of science can’t investigate them. They are matters of faith, not science.

Immaterial Does Not Mean Inscrutable

Dr. Liddle appears to be setting up a straw man here. There have been theists who have laid great emphasis on what they call the sovereign will of God, to such an extent that they maintain it is not restricted by anything at all. God, they say, can will literally anything. I agree with Dr. Liddle that such a Deity would indeed be utterly capricious, able to explain everything and nothing. If there is a science-friendly Designer, He must be a Being Who is only able to will what is rational.

In her post, Dr. Liddle contends that “An explanation that explains everything explains nothing.” That’s a good argument against “a non-material, uncharacterised designer” but not against a Designer Whose objective is to create sentient and sapient beings, and Who uses His Intellect to accomplish this end in the wisest way possible. What kind of design flaws would we expect such a Designer to tolerate? I would answer: those flaws that cannot be avoided, because they arise as a result of conflicting biological constraints. A Designer would have no choice but to tolerate these.

The Perils Of Picture Thinking

I should point out that the mere fact that we can imagine a better design for an organism does not make it possible in reality. In a previous post of mine, entitled, Of Pegasus and Pangloss: Two Recurring Fallacies of Skeptics, I warned against the dangers of using picture thinking as a guide to possibility, when alleging instances of bad design:

…[T]he problem with this line of thinking is that it conflates two distinct notions: picturability and conceivability. Only the latter can tell us what is possible. Picture thinking cannot….

And that brings me to Pegasus, the winged horse. Is Pegasus possible? Certainly he’s picturable, as the image on the left at the beginning of this post clearly proves. But is he conceivable? Surely not. Just ask yourself a simple question: how does he fly? According to the laws of aerodynamics which obtain in our universe, this should be impossible. Picturability, then, is not a reliable guide to possibility. To argue that a better world is possible simply because we can picture it is to engage in childish thinking.

“Pegasus-thinking”, as I shall call it, is a besetting sin of Darwinists – by which I mean, advocates of an unguided evolutionary process whose principal mechanism is natural selection winnowing random variation. For instance, Professor Jerry Coyne argues in his book, Why Evolution is True (Viking Adult Press, 2009) that the male prostate gland is badly designed because the urethra runs through it, making men liable to enlargement and infection in later life. Aside from the fact that Coyne’s argument open to question on empirical grounds – creationist Jonathan Sarfati asserts that the risk of enlargement appears to be largely diet-related in his 2008 article, The Prostate Gland – is it “badly designed”? – Coyne is essentially arguing that because we can imagine a better design, therefore one is possible; and since we don’t find it in Nature, it follows that Nature is not the work of an Intelligent Creator. The question-begging underlying this argument should be readily apparent.

What About All Those Instances Of Bad Design?

Let’s start with Dr. Liddle’s example of bird lungs. Bird lungs originally evolved in order to enable the ancestors of birds to cope with very low oxygen levels, which were prevalent between 175 and 275 million years ago (see here). The reader might be asking: why don’t mammals have lungs like this? That’s a very good question. The (scientifically falsifiable) prediction I would make is that mammals would incur a severe fitness cost if they did. It should be easy enough for scientists to test this prediction by manipulating the genes of developing mammals to give them avian lungs, and then seeing how this impacted on their fitness. I am highly skeptical of the Darwinist “explanation” that evolution just happened to find a better solution for birds than for mammals. To me, that account explains nothing at all. It’s what I’d call a real science stopper.

But what about that most comical of anatomical imperfections, the laryngeal nerve of the giraffe, cited by Dr. Richard Dawkins as excellent evidence for Darwinian evolution? Now, if the laryngeal nerve were just involved in controlling the larynx, then Dawkins might have a good point. The laryngeal nerve comes down from the brain and loops around the arteries near the heart and then goes back up to the larynx. In the giraffe, this seems like particularly bad design. However, the laryngeal nerve actually has several branches all along its length that go to the heart, esophagus, trachea, and thyroid gland. Thus it is involved in a whole system of control of various related organs. It would be very unintelligent to have a single nerve, controlling only the larynx. It would be more intelligent to have it control a lot of related systems all along its length (see this article.) Hence the laryngeal nerve, far from being a problem for intelligent design, actually vindicates it.
Creationist Dr. Jonathan Sarfati makes the same point in a recent article entitled, Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve, and adds that its position may have something to do with the development of the animal as an embryo:

Dawkins considers only its main destination, the larynx. In reality, the nerve also has a role in supplying parts of the heart, windpipe muscles and mucous membranes, and the esophagus, which could explain its route.
Even apart from this function, there are features that are the result of embryonic development – not because of evolution, but because the embryo develops from a single cell in a certain order. For example, the embryo needs a functioning simple heart early on; this later descends to its position in the chest, dragging the nerve bundle with it.

This is a fruitful Intelligent Design hypothesis, and a falsifiable one. If it is wrong, we should know soon enough.
Finally, a recent article by Dr. Jerry Bergman, entitled Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve Is Not Evidence of Poor Design, in Acts & Facts 39 (8): 12-14, concludes:

The left recurrent laryngeal nerve is not poorly designed, but rather is clear evidence of intelligent design:

  • Much evidence exists that the present design results from developmental constraints.
  • There are indications that this design serves to fine-tune laryngeal functions.
  • The nerve serves to innervate other organs after it branches from the vagus on its way to the larynx.
  • The design provides backup innervation to the larynx in case another nerve is damaged.
  • No evidence exists that the design causes any disadvantage.

The arguments presented by evolutionists are both incorrect and have discouraged research into the specific reasons for the existing design.

What about the female human pelvis? We now know that Homo erectus females had large, wide pelvises in order to deliver large-brained babies, which meant that Homo erectus infants became independent far more quickly than modern human infants. However, the average brain size of Homo erectus was considerably smaller than that of Homo sapiens, and further evolutionary widening of the pelvis to accommodate larger-brained Homo sapiens infants may have severely hampered women’s mobility while walking. What happened instead was that Homo sapiens infants were born immature, which in turn meant that they required an extended period of parental care. Once again, we see trade-offs being made because of conflicting biological constraints. Blaming the Designer for this is like blaming Him for not being able to make a square circle. It’s simply childish.

There are parasites which are dedicated to attacking people: the malaria parasite, for instance. But what we continually need to remind ourselves is that we don’t know all the facts about the original condition of these seemingly malevolent organisms, as well as their subsequent development. Until we do, we are in no position to sit in judgment on the Designer.

For instance, according to a recent press release by the National Science Foundation, modern malaria parasites began to spread to various mammals, birds and reptiles about 16 million years ago. Malaria parasites may jump to new, unrelated hosts at any time, decoupling their evolution from that of their hosts. The ancestors of humans acquired the parasite 2.5 million years ago – very close to the time when humans first appeared. However, according to Dr. Robert Ricklefs, one of the biologists who conducted the recent research into the origin of the malaria parasite, “Malaria parasites undoubtedly were relatively benign for most of that history, becoming a major disease only after the origins of agriculture and dense human populations.”

An Alternative Intelligent Design Hypothesis?

In the post I quoted above from Dr. Liddle, she remarked:

…[I]f you were to postulate an actual material designer, that would be something else – we could actually draw some conclusions about the designer – his/her enthusiasms, his/her strengths, his/her weaknesses, his/her assembly techniques, his/her testing protocols etc.

Then we might have an actual explanation from the ID postulate.

So here’s my invitation to Dr. Liddle: if you really find the notion of a pure spirit philosophically incoherent, why not postulate a Jeffersonian Designer, who is subject to material as well as logical constraints? After all, materialistic Deism is a perfectly respectable worldview, with a long history. Look at the fossil record, examine the imperfections in living things, and tell me what you can deduce about the physical limitations of your Designer. The Intelligent Design movement is a very broad tent, and you’re more than welcome to conduct research along these lines. For the fact is that scientific arguments alone cannot rule out the existence of a Jeffersonian Designer. Only metaphysical arguments could do that. However, Intelligent Design proponents are not tied to any particular metaphysical view, as ID is a scientific program.

Over to you, Dr. Liddle.

Comments
In short, I believe, on grounds that can be seen here on, that it is intellectually self-refuting and morally bankrupt.
When investigating a murder is is morally bankrupt to proceed on the assumption that no Gods or supernatural entities were involved?GCUGreyArea
January 23, 2012
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Of course, at UD, I am known for using the descriptive term evolutionary materialism to describe the view that everything from hydrogen to humans has come about by a process of matter and energy in space-time, interacting though forces of chance and necessity, via cosmological evolution, planetary system evolution, chemical evolution, biological macroevolution, and at length socio-cultural evolution.
Well,thanks for explaining, kf, because your usage is certainly idiosyncratic! But it still differs from "methodogical materialism" which is well, "methodological". It's not the holding of your "evo mat" view. It's taking the methodological stance that the set of relationships described under you "evo mat" are those amenable to scientific investigation. The assumption that there are no other relationships is not required, merely the observation that other relationships do not lend themselves to testable hypotheses.Elizabeth Liddle
January 23, 2012
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Much sounder source: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/ >>Physicalism is sometimes known as ‘materialism’; indeed, on one strand to contemporary usage, the terms ‘physicalism’ and ‘materialism’ are interchangeable. But the two terms have very different histories . . . . Some philosophers suggest that ‘physicalism’ is distinct from ‘materialism’ for a reason quite unrelated to the one emphasized by Neurath and Carnap. As the name suggests, materialists historically held that everything was matter — where matter was conceived as “an inert, senseless substance, in which extension, figure, and motion do actually subsist” (Berkeley, Principles of Human Knowledge, par. 9). But physics itself has shown that not everything is matter in this sense; for example, forces such as gravity are physical but it is not clear that they are material in the traditional sense (Lange 1865, Dijksterhuis 1961, Yolton 1983). So it is tempting to use ‘physicalism’ to distance oneself from what seems a historically important but no longer scientifically relevant thesis of materialism, and related to this, to emphasize a connection to physics and the physical sciences. However, while physicalism is certainly unusual among metaphysical doctrines in being associated with a commitment both to the sciences and to a particular branch of science, namely physics, it is not clear that this is a good reason for calling it ‘physicalism’ rather than ‘materialism.’ For one thing, many contemporary physicalists do in fact use the word ‘materialism’ to describe their doctrine (e.g. Smart 1963). Moreover, while ‘physicalism’ is no doubt related to ‘physics’ it is also related to ‘physical object’ and this in turn is very closely connected with ‘material object’, and via that, with ‘matter.’ In this entry, I will adopt the policy of using both terms interchangeably . . . . physicalism is intended as a very general claim about the nature of the world. Nevertheless, by far the most discussion of physicalism in the literature has been in the philosophy of mind. The reason for this is that it is in philosophy of mind that we find the most plausible and compelling arguments that physicalism is false. Indeed, as we will see later on, arguments about qualia and consciousness are usually formulated as arguments for the conclusion that physicalism is false. Thus, a lot of philosophy of mind is devoted to a discussion of physicalism . . . >> Of course, at UD, I am known for using the descriptive term evolutionary materialism to describe the view that everything from hydrogen to humans has come about by a process of matter and energy in space-time, interacting though forces of chance and necessity, via cosmological evolution, planetary system evolution, chemical evolution, biological macroevolution, and at length socio-cultural evolution. This is of course the insittutio0nally dominant view in the academy today, and often likes to term itself "science." In fact, as Plato addresses in his The Laws Bk X, it is an ancient, pre-scientific view, latterly dressed up in the holy lab coat. I also hold, on warrant that it is self-referentially incoherent, undermines the credibility of the cognitive life, and that it is also inherently amoral, having in it no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. In short, I believe, on grounds that can be seen here on, that it is intellectually self-refuting and morally bankrupt. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 23, 2012
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From a theistic or Christian perspective, however, things are much less frantic. The theist knows that God created the heavens and the earth and all that they contain; she knows, therefore, that in one way or another God has created all the vast diversity of contemporary plant and animal life. But of course she isn’t thereby committed to any particular way in which God did this. He could have done it by broadly evolutionary means; but on the other hand he could have done it in some totally different way. For example, he could have done it by directly creating certain kinds of creatures–human beings, or bacteria, or for that matter sparrows13 and houseflies–as many Christians over the centuries have thought. Alternatively, he could have done it the way Augustine suggests: by implanting seeds, potentialities of various kinds in the world, so that the various kinds of creatures would later arise, although not by way of genealogical interrelatedness. Both of these suggestions are incompatible with the evolutionary story. A Christian therefore has a certain freedom denied her naturalist counterpart: she can follow the evidence14 where it leads . . .
By "knowing" a priori, that God created everything, a Christian is able to "follow the evidence where it leads"? I don't think so. If you know in advance that God created everything, than no evidence can possibly falsify this. So you can't follow it "where it leads". What you can do is to ask the evidence how God did it. But that's to adopt methodological naturalism. So at best, the Christian is in no different a position; at worst she has cut off one important potential conclusion by starting with an a priori assumption re a Creator God.Elizabeth Liddle
January 23, 2012
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And Plantinga hauls out a canard as well:
Consider the Grand Evolutionary Myth (GEM). According to this story, organic life somehow arose from non-living matter by way of purely natural means and by virtue of the workings of the fundamental regularities of physics and chemistry.
No, this is not a "story" and is not "evolutionary". We simply do not know how organic life arose from non-living matter, although the hypothesis that it did so "by virtue of the workings of the fundamental regularities of physics and chemistry" has the virtue, in principle, of testability. So does the hypothesis, in principle, that it was seeded by a material/physical designer/artesan. However, the hypothesis that it was planted by an immaterial/supernatural/non-physical designer is not testable. That's why "methodological naturalism" is intrinsic to scientific methodology. Only natural hypotheses are testable. Doesn't mean that all nature is natural, it just means that only natural hypotheses are amenable to scientific investigation.Elizabeth Liddle
January 23, 2012
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A methodological principle that some scientists think ought to guide science. Methodological naturalism requires that scientists limit themselves to naturalistic or materialistic explanations when they seek to explain natural phenomena, objects, or processes. On this understanding of how science ought to work, explanations that invoke intelligent causes or the actions of intelligent agents do not qualify as scientific.
Well, this definition is just silly. It would rule out all of zoology for a start. And all psychology, and all cognitve science. Archaelogy. Forensic science. I unreservedly reject "methodological materialism" as defined like this. But it seems to me a useless definition.Elizabeth Liddle
January 23, 2012
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Well, do you reject "methodological materialism"? And if so, on what grounds (and by what definition)? It's not a hypothesis btw. Or not as I am interpreting the term. It's a method.Elizabeth Liddle
January 23, 2012
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"materialism": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism "phyisicalism": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalismdmullenix
January 23, 2012
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No, that’s fine how you’ve answered, Elizabeth. Thanks. The main issue is whether or not you allow for a sovereign category of ‘human-made’ things, i.e. ‘artefacts’ or whether instead you subsume them under the category of ‘natural,’ which is what you’ve done (also adding the term ‘phenomena’).
Well, that would depend on context. Or rather, on the level of causality we are talking about. You could legitimately as, and do, whether a man died of "natural" causes or was murdered ("unnatural death"); also distinguish between "natural" and "artificial" selection. So if what you are interested in is whether something is "artificial" or not (the result of "artifice") you (and I) might well use "natural" as the antonym. But if, to adopt a more distal level of causality, you might also say that it was "natural" for A to kill B, because A killed B in self-defense and self-defense is a "natural" instinct. But my position is that all phenomena observed "in nature" i.e. in the world are ultimately "natural" in causation, i.e. have their most distal causes within the world, and that "natural" phenomena include intelligent living things capable of causing, and creating, other things by "artifice". Although let me add a caveat: I think that "causality" as a concept is itself a human artefact! It may be that when faced with very elemental questions like "what is the nature of existence" the notion of "causality" simply falls out of our conceptualisation of "time", and vanishes if we reconceptualise "time" as a bi-directional dimension like the other familiar three. But leaving that aside (and mostly I don't think it's relevant here) I stand by what I say above.
Would it be correct to assume that you also consider ‘technology’ as ‘natural’ (or as ‘natural phenomena’) too?
In the above senses, yes.
There is one more question (in two parts) that I’d like to ask, then, given your answer in 9.1.2: Is ‘artificial selection’ also something you consider to be ‘natural’? If so, then why did Charles Darwin distinguish ‘artificial selection’ from ‘natural selection’?
I hope I have anticipated this question in my answer above :)
Thanks in advance for expressing your views on what is ‘natural’ and what is (or could possibly count as) ‘non-natural.’ This helps me to understand what you mean by ‘naturalism’ in your philosophy of science.
Let me add one more important caveat: I am most emphatically NOT of the view that because everything is "natural" (in the sense I am attempting to define it) that there is no "meaning" in life. Quite the reverse. Just as I think it is possible to distinguish between the proximally "artificial" and the proximally "natural" even though all are (as I see it) distally "natural", it is possible to distinguish between proximal purposefulness and distal purposelessness; in other words, to see the universe itself as purposeless, but ourselves as having local, if you like purpose. To which, in romantic moments, I might rephrase as: we are part of the universe, and as we have purpose, and are capable of investigating the nature of the universe, it is also true to say that the universe is capable of assigning to itself a purpose and of knowing itself. In other words, I don't see anything nihilist in naturalism! I'm hoping this makes some sense. I appreciate your invitation to try to think this through (aloud, as it were), but it comes with associated warts and all :)Elizabeth Liddle
January 22, 2012
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Well done, Petrushka. Nice hint!Gregory
January 22, 2012
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Darwin didn't draw a strong distinction between natural and artificial selection. He called attention to the similarities.Petrushka
January 22, 2012
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Just to clarify, Elizabeth, it looks like you did understand my question. Indeed, that is why I am now asking a follow-up to it. Sometimes being 'sure' of something is not the best approach. Awaiting your response on supposedly 'natural' technology and on 'artificial selection.' Thanks, Gr.Gregory
January 22, 2012
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No, that's fine how you've answered, Elizabeth. Thanks. The main issue is whether or not you allow for a sovereign category of 'human-made' things, i.e. 'artefacts' or whether instead you subsume them under the category of 'natural,' which is what you've done (also adding the term 'phenomena'). Would it be correct to assume that you also consider 'technology' as 'natural' (or as 'natural phenomena') too? There is one more question (in two parts) that I'd like to ask, then, given your answer in 9.1.2: Is 'artificial selection' also something you consider to be 'natural'? If so, then why did Charles Darwin distinguish 'artificial selection' from 'natural selection'? Thanks in advance for expressing your views on what is 'natural' and what is (or could possibly count as) 'non-natural.' This helps me to understand what you mean by 'naturalism' in your philosophy of science.Gregory
January 22, 2012
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Apologies for the delay, Gregory! Thanks for the link.
Let me ask you though, Elizabeth, are the terms ‘cultural,’ ‘political,’ ‘social,’ religious,’ ‘economical’ and/or ‘linguistic’ best called ‘natural’ in your approach? Iow, would these terms count as ‘non-natural’ the way you perceive of ‘knowledge’ and/or ‘application’?
I'm not quite understanding your question, Gregory. You have there a list of adjectives, and while I guess I think adjectives are "natural", I'm sure that isn't what you want to know! So let's try turning them into nouns: culture, politics, society, religion, economics, language. Yes, I think these are all "natural" phenomena. But I'm sure I haven't understood your question. Could you clarify?Elizabeth Liddle
January 21, 2012
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Assuming I've (once again) been mistaken for 'George' (with soon coming the Chinese year of the Dragon!)... "We’ve never observed the origins of anything remotely like biology." Actually, without exception the 'origins' of *every* 'scientific' field of study (biology included) have been 'observed' and (more or less) 'recorded' by people. It would be absurd to suggest otherwise. The 'analogy' to 'human design' by 'intelligent design' as a theory IN 'natural sciences' simply weakens its explanatory power. This is not to say that 'human design' is weak, but simply that it is 'other' to the 'naturalistic' approach. Embrace your dogmatism ScottAndrews2; everyone is dogmatic in one way or another! Do not be afraid. Why bring shame on inescapable dogma? Dogma is, after all, not a karmic idea! "How can the inference of an unknown intelligent agent be more fantastic or less rational then the imagination of self-organized living things which is inferred from nothing at all? I don’t see how to shoot down the one and then pick up the other." Yes, I'm well aware of what you and the IDM don't see, with their focus on natural-physical sciences at the cost of human casualisation. Known intelligent agents are staring you (Welcome to Victoria!) right in the face.Gregory
January 21, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, I'll be away for a couple of days starting Monday, with perhaps only a quick check-in possible. Not wishing to rush you towards an answer to 9.1, but rather to stress the importance of how you respond and that you respond to this question. Admitting there are 'non-natural' topics/themes/ideas/concepts/categories/fields/etc. that are best not called 'supernatural' marks a necessary change in your current position. It is not so much a matter of pointing out 'intellectual shortcomings' as it is highlighting that the 'academic tradition' in which you operate in England historically does not allow you to see certain things (Cf. J.D. Bernal on social history of science). Recognition of this is what I have been studying closely for the past 7-10 years. There is no one 'in' the IDM (that I am familiar with) who takes this approach. Indeed, there are multiple things on which we agree, especially with regard to ID, but not so far about 'naturalism.'Gregory
January 21, 2012
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In the passage you cited, McCabe reveals himself to be a conservationist, or what Alfred Freddoso used to call a weak Deist. That’s fine, but conservationism is not the mainstream view of Church theologians down the ages regarding God’s causal interaction with the world. Concurrentism is.
Well, you might like to read more of his work before coming to that conclusion. He was a Dominican theologian, a Thomist scholar, and one of the editors of the English edition of the Summa. He also authored The Teaching of the Catholic Church: A New Catechism of Christian Doctrine. So not exactly out of the catholic mainstream, anyway :) And, as I said, a Thomist scholar. He's dead, sadly, so you can't ask him. But I was privileged to hear him preach regularly at Blackfriars Priory, Oxford. (Also Timothy Radcliffe, until recently, Master of the Dominicans - it was an awesome Sunday venue!)Elizabeth Liddle
January 20, 2012
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vjtorley wrote: "The ID movement would not expel someone with an alternative view" and "Thank you for your post." You're welcome. Let us see if the IDM would or would not 'expel' someone with an alternative view to theirs and if they are intererested in 'following the evidence where it leads'. You say with confidence that they 'would not' and yet are now made aware of the proposed situation that an 'alternative to ID' is available. Let us await the fruits. Elizabeth is surely aware and watching this also, along with others. Let me first say that I am thankful to the IDM, specifically to the DI for supporting my research, which contributed in small part to both my masters and PhD theses. No harm do I wish to the people who supported me and welcomed me openly into seeing their inner workings and plans. Yet I've discovered such a gaping hole in their 'methodology,' in their 'approach,' in their view of the Academy, that I cannot help but now speak out. Yes, I am aware that 'ID is a big tent' and that it opens and closes its folds at some point and cannot be universal. I have moved beyond ID as a satisfactory 'new natural-physical science' position. 'Design' is a proper concept in some fields, but is improper in others, which is a suitable topic for discussion. Yes, I accept/believe that "design is empirically X-able" ('detection' being only one among many possible terms). It is historical, interpretive and empirical as a term in 'certain sciences.' But - ah, there's the rub - *not* in others. This is the fine line - the rub - for you to walk, vjtorley, in your assessment. Soon I will respond to Timaeus in another thread (https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/has-the-american-scientific-affiliation-forgotten-their-stated-identity/#comments). Let us see if you would retain your openness to evidence and welcome to me given the possibility of an 'alternative to ID' or if you would rather promote censorship in the 'search for truth'. What I offer is to speak truth to power/consensus - I am against universal evolution(ism) and seek an acceptable limitation on (neo-)Darwinism; surely this is something that the anti-Darwinists in the audience will appreciate and be ready to devour!Gregory
January 20, 2012
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Peter Griffin asks at 19:
Can someone give me a specific example of something that they would like to examine, but cannot because of definitional fiat?
The reason definitional fiat is used is to avoid conclusions that seem to contradict some scientists' ideology. IOW, they would like to not examine the subject in question (ID theory), and they would like to not conclude that the subject in question is the most likely cause. It is a reasonable scientific conclusion (provisionally held, as are all scientific conclusions) that intelligent, deliberate agencies were involved in a significant way in the creation of life and in the evolutionary process since then. To avoid this, many scientists invoke by fiat that the characterization of such an agency as "intelligent and deliberate" in this particular case is a definitional reference to magic, or "the supernatural", or some other premise that, in their minds, means "science stops here", whereas in other cases (such as in forensic investigations) no such definitional fiat is applied to the finding of cause by deliberate agency. So, some scientists, because they do not wish to consider as scientific the conclusion that a deliberate agency may generated life (or the universe), use definitional fiat to categorize such a characterization as outside of the normal bounds of science. Which is clearly special pleading and definitional fiat.William J Murray
January 20, 2012
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Elizabeth: In the passage you cited, McCabe reveals himself to be a conservationist, or what Alfred Freddoso used to call a weak Deist. That's fine, but conservationism is not the mainstream view of Church theologians down the ages regarding God's causal interaction with the world. Concurrentism is. Conservationists maintain that while God is the immediate cause of the being of creatures (for without Him, they'd be nothing), He is a remote (or ultimate) cause of the effects that creatures bring about in the natural world - i.e. changes. God acts though natural agents but never alongside them. Concurrentism by contrast holds that in addition to being the immediate cause of the being of creatures, as well as the ultimate cause of the effects they bring about in the natural world, God also produces natural effects immediately, working concurrently with creatures. In other words, not: God->X->Y->Z (where X, Y and Z are natural effects), but: God->X God + X->Y God + Y->Z (At the same time, God maintains all agents immediately in being.) Without God's co-operation at each step, effect Z will not occur. It would be wrong however to say that God intervenes. Regular co-operation is not intervention. Occasionally, miracles occur in which God withholds his co-operation. As Freddoso puts it, referring to the miracle of Shadrach:
... Christians ought not to believe that in performing miracles, God has to overpower or struggle with or overcome His creatures. The occasionalists and concurrentists are convinced that there are certain miracles recorded in Scripture that weak deism cannot construe other than as events God was able to bring about only by overpowering certain creatures. Think of Shadrach sitting in the fiery furnace. Here we have real human flesh exposed unprotected to real fire, and yet Shadrach survives unscathed--even though the fire is so hot that it consumes the soldiers who usher him into the furnace. How, on the weak deist view, can God save Shadrach? Only, it seems, by either (i) taking from the fire its power to consume Shadrach, which is inconsistent with the soldiers' being incinerated but in any case amounts (or so the anti-deists all claim) to destroying the fire and in that sense overpowering it; or (ii) endowing Shadrach's clothing and flesh with a special power of resistance, in which case God is opposing His creature, the fire; or (iii) placing some impediment (say, an invisible heat-resistant shield) between Shadrach and the flames, in which case God is yet again resisting the power of the fire. By contrast, on the occasionalist and concurrentist models, God accomplishes this miracle simply by withholding His own action. The (real) fire is, as it were, beholden to God's word; He does not have to struggle with it or overcome it or oppose it. The fire's natural effect cannot occur without God's action, and in this case God chooses not to act in the way required. An elegant account, and one that does not in any way give any creature a power that God must oppose.
Freddoso gives a brief and highly readable account of concurrentism here (see section 1): http://www.nd.edu/~afreddos/papers/chance.htm For more about concurrentism, including replies to common objections, see here: http://www.angelfire.com/linux/vjtorley/thomas1.html#smoking5 Aquinas, incidentally, was a concurrentist. Aquinas also taught (contrary to McCabe) that physical effects going beyond the power of Nature are the best possible way to demonstrate God's power and free agency:
[D]ivine power can sometimes produce an effect, without prejudice to its providence, apart from the order implanted in natural things by God. In fact, He does this at times to manifest His power. For it can be manifested in no better way, that the whole of nature is subject to the divine will, than by the fact that sometimes He does something outside the order of nature. Indeed, this makes it evident that the order of things has proceeded from Him, not by natural necessity, but by free will. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III, chapter 99, paragraph 9.)
In his Quaestiones Disputatae de Potentia Dei (Disputed Questions on the Power of God) Q. VI article I, Aquinas asks: Can God do anything in creatures that is beyond Nature, against Nature, or contrary to the course of Nature? Here is a very brief excerpt:
I answer that, without any doubt God can work in creatures independently of created causes ... and by working independently of created causes he can produce the same effects and in the same order as he produces them by their means: or even other effects and in a different order: so that he is able to do something contrary to the common and customary course of nature.
Finally, in his Summa Contra Gentiles Book III, chapter 100, paragraphs 6 and 7, Aquinas argues that nothing God does to Nature can be contrary to Nature, simply because He is Nature's Creator:
[6] Furthermore, all creatures are related to God as art products are to an artist, as is clear from the foregoing. Consequently, the whole of nature is like an artifact of the divine artistic mind. But it is not contrary to the essential character of an artist if he should work in a different way on his product, even after he has given it its first form. Neither, then, is it against nature if God does something to natural things in a different way from that to which the course of nature is accustomed. [7] Hence, Augustine says: "God, the creator and founder of all natures, does nothing contrary to nature; for what the source of all measure, number and order in nature does, is natural to each thing" [Contra Faustum, XXVI, 3].
Consequently, I do not agree with McCabe when he writes:
... [W]e do not apeal specifically to God to explain why the universe is this way rather than that, for this we need only appeal to explanations within the universe. For this reason there can, it seems to me, be no feature of the universe which indicates it is god-made.
Any feature of the universe which exhibited specified complexity, and which was beyond the power of natural causes to produce (i.e not describable within the framework of any physical law) would be evidence for God's having produced it. As for the universe being this way rather than that: we do need to appeal to the Creator of the cosmos to explain why the finely-tuned and uniquely beautiful laws of Nature are this way rather than that.vjtorley
January 20, 2012
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Thank you for confirming with me that MN is 'relatively new.' Yes, I think more work needs to be done by IDists on Paul de Vries. This is, after all, (according to R. Numbers) the source of the terminology, i.e. coinage. Why challenge Elizabeth while knowing so little about de Vries? Was it simply one paper he wrote, for a deadline, with nothing 'ethical' invested...and yet both you and Elizabeth and most others here take de Vries' terminology as 'good PoS'? Didn't he have to sign a 'faith statement' while being employed by Wheaton College, where he was when he authored said paper? My view is that MN is junk PoS. It doesn't hold up under scrutiny by those who are knowledgeable in the field. It is a weak attempt to provide a rationale for justifying NOMA. Yet many IDists have bought-into de Vries' evangelical logic! For example, vjtorley you say 'the concept is older.' But 'the concept-duo' was coined by de Vries! In fact what you mean is that the 'percept' i.e. the act of perceiving *only nature* as a sovereign realm is older. You say NCSE is wrong (re: Middle Ages), while at the same time your message is misleading. The 'conceptualisation' belongs to de Vries. Why not then seek him out to explain himself further? Going deepeer, exactly who do you suggest in 'the early nineteenth century' as the 'first proponent' of seeing *only nature* as a sovereign realm? A name would be best here please. 'Late nineteenth century' is also too sloppy and imprecise for rigorous discussion. Again, I'm not a USAmerican citizen and neither NCSE nor Dover make much difference in my studies of 'science' and society. A more global approach would be appreciated as we are using internet.Gregory
January 20, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth: I'd just like to clear up one thing about Intelligent Design. In identifying a pattern in Nature as the work of an Intelligent Agent, ID does not claim that this agent is the proximate (or immediate) cause of the pattern. The agent might well be an intermediate cause, or even the ultimate cause of the pattern. Hence even if we detect that a pattern is the work of an intelligent agent, on the basis of purely empirical criteria (specified complexity), it is still possible for us to look for unintelligent proximate natural causes that produced that pattern. Intelligent Design in no way interferes with lab work. It is agnostic regarding the level in the causal chain corresponding to the work of an Intelligent Agent, or the way in which the Agent produces these patterns. Front-loading, for instance, is quite compatible with Intelligent Design.vjtorley
January 20, 2012
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The same thing everyone else means. Look I have a dictionary and know the meanings of words. Buy one already...Joe
January 20, 2012
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PG of course -- predictably -- fails to understand that if science is taken ideological captive to a priori materialism as is notorious, it has sold its birthright of unfettered pursuit of the truth about our world through empirical methods, for a mess of materialist ideological pottage. KFkairosfocus
January 20, 2012
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George, What theory pertaining to origins does not require an extrapolation? We've never observed the origins of anything remotely like biology. That doesn't mean that the comparison to human design is automatically the best one or even a good one. But you're going to have a tough time finding a better one. The extrapolation to biological design leads to a great big unknown. If something designed it, then we can't presently tell what. That might not sit well. That's one great big, fantastic unknown. I can understand viewing that with skepticism. But how is a logical absurdity such as biological self-organization better? An unknown doesn't have to be a fairy tale, even if you think the stories people make up about it are fairy tales. But biological self-organization is a fairy tale. It requires confidence in an event that is at best unsupported by anything in documented human experience and at worst contradicted by much of it. I'm trying not to be too dogmatic and look for a middle-of-the-road way to express this. How can the inference of an unknown intelligent agent be more fantastic or less rational then the imagination of self-organized living things which is inferred from nothing at all? I don't see how to shoot down the one and then pick up the other.ScottAndrews2
January 20, 2012
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F/N: Definitions, definitions . . . ISCID, Enc:
Methodological Naturalism A methodological principle that some scientists think ought to guide science. Methodological naturalism requires that scientists limit themselves to naturalistic or materialistic explanations when they seek to explain natural phenomena, objects, or processes. On this understanding of how science ought to work, explanations that invoke intelligent causes or the actions of intelligent agents do not qualify as scientific.
Plantinga, at ARN, in Methodological naturalism?:
The philosophical doctrine of methodological naturalism holds that, for any study of the world to qualify as "scientific," it cannot refer to God's creative activity (or any sort of divine activity). The methods of science, it is claimed, "give us no purchase" on theological propositions--even if the latter are true--and theology therefore cannot influence scientific explanation or theory justification. Thus, science is said to be religiously neutral, if only because science and religion are, by their very natures, epistemically distinct. However, the actual practice and content of science challenge this claim . . . . According to an idea widely popular since the Enlightenment, science (at least when properly pursued) is a cool, reasoned, wholly dispassionate1 attempt to figure out the truth about ourselves and the world, entirely independent of ideology, or moral convictions, or religious or theological commitments. Of course this picture has lately developed some cracks. It is worth noting that 16 centuries ago, St. Augustine provided the materials for seeing that this common conception can't really be correct. It would be excessively naïve to think that contemporary science is religiously and theologically neutral. Perhaps parts of science are like that. The size and shape of the earth and its distance from the sun, the periodic table of the elements, the proof of the Pythagorean Theorem--these are all in a reasonable sense religiously neutral. But many other areas of science are very different. They are obviously and deeply involved in a clash between opposed religious world views. There is no neat recipe for telling which parts of science are neutral with respect to this contest and which are not; what we have is a continuum rather than a simple distinction. But here is a rough rule of thumb: the relevance of a bit of science to this contest depends upon how closely that bit is involved in the attempt to come to understand ourselves as human beings . . . . Consider the Grand Evolutionary Myth (GEM). According to this story, organic life somehow arose from non-living matter by way of purely natural means and by virtue of the workings of the fundamental regularities of physics and chemistry. Once life began, all the vast profusion of contemporary flora and fauna arose from those early ancestors by way of common descent. The enormous contemporary variety of life arose, basically, through natural selection operating on such sources of genetic variability as random genetic mutation, genetic drift and the like. I call this story a myth not because I do not believe it (although I do not believe it) but because it plays a certain kind of quasi-religious role in contemporary culture. It is a shared way of understanding ourselves at the deep level of religion, a deep interpretation of ourselves to ourselves, a way of telling us why we are here, where we come from, and where we are going. Now it is certainly possible--epistemically possible,7 anyway--that GEM is true; it certainly seems that God could have done things in this way. Certain parts of this story, however, are, to say the least, epistemically shaky. For example, we hardly have so much as decent hints as to how life could have arisen from inorganic matter just by way of the regularities known to physics and chemistry.8 (Darwin found this question deeply troubling;9 at present the problem is enormously more difficult than it was in Darwin's day, now that some of the stunning complexity of even the simplest forms of life has been revealed).10 No doubt God could have done things that way if he had chosen to; but at present it looks as if he didn't choose to. So suppose we separate off this thesis about the origin of life. Suppose we use the term 'evolution' to denote the much weaker claim that all contemporary forms of life are genealogically related. According to this claim, you and the flowers in your garden share common ancestors, though we may have to go back quite a ways to find them. Many contemporary experts and spokespersons--Francisco Ayala, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Gould, William Provine, and Philip Spieth, for example--unite in declaring that evolution is no mere theory, but established fact. According to them, this story is not just a virtual certainty, but a real certainty.11 Now why do they think so? Given the spotty character of the evidence--for example, a fossil record displaying sudden appearance and subsequent stasis and few if any genuine examples of macroevolution, no satisfactory account of a mechanism by which the whole process could have happened, and the like12--these claims of certainty seem at best wildly excessive. The answer can be seen, I think, when we realize that what you properly think about these claims of certainty depends in part on how you think about theism. If you reject theism in favor of naturalism, this evolutionary story is the only game in town, the only visible answer to the question: Where did all this enormous variety of flora and fauna come from? How did it all get here? Even if the fossil record is at best spotty and at worst disconfirming, this story is the only answer on offer (from a naturalistic perspective) to these questions. From a theistic or Christian perspective, however, things are much less frantic. The theist knows that God created the heavens and the earth and all that they contain; she knows, therefore, that in one way or another God has created all the vast diversity of contemporary plant and animal life. But of course she isn't thereby committed to any particular way in which God did this. He could have done it by broadly evolutionary means; but on the other hand he could have done it in some totally different way. For example, he could have done it by directly creating certain kinds of creatures--human beings, or bacteria, or for that matter sparrows13 and houseflies--as many Christians over the centuries have thought. Alternatively, he could have done it the way Augustine suggests: by implanting seeds, potentialities of various kinds in the world, so that the various kinds of creatures would later arise, although not by way of genealogical interrelatedness. Both of these suggestions are incompatible with the evolutionary story. A Christian therefore has a certain freedom denied her naturalist counterpart: she can follow the evidence14 where it leads . . .
I think this pair of clips allows us to focus many of the underlying issues and concerns quite well. And so, when, for instance we see the US NSTA saying (scroll down here):
The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000.]
. . . we have excellent grounds for saying that this reflects an ideological captivity of science that needs to be broken, and that educators who think like this -- this is a statement from the BOARD of the national Science teachers body of the USA -- have disqualified themselves from teaching our young people about anything more complex and involved than how to chuck a drill bit. The first, obvious rejoinder is that there is a perfectly good, empirically testable and reasonable sense in which we may contrast the natural and the artificial, without loading up on metaphysical commitments, and that we may then proceed to investigate on empirically observable, testable, and reliable signs. That hs been known from the days of Plato in his The laws, Bk X. Something which we cannot excuse the NSTA's board for being ignorant of. Indeed, had they troubled to move beyond ideological power games and scapegoating strawmen, they would have learned that this is routinely studied in many unquestionably scientific fields, using credible and effective empirical methods, Indeed, some of these have relevance to what happens in courtrooms. Philip Johnson's rebuke to such is all too well warranted:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original, Johnson is specifically responding to Lewontin] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
The time has more than come to say enough is enough, and that domineering overlordship by a priori materialist ideologues dressed in the holy lab coat must end now. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
January 20, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, You wrote:
...if something has an effect on a material object, then it is a force. This is true whether it's my fingers landing on the keys, or a rain drop landing on the earth. So to me "non-material force" (or, if you prefer, "non-physical force") is an oxymoron.
In reply: your argument implicitly assumes that whatever has an effect on a material object must itself be a material object. You also wrote above in 3.1.1.9, in response to dmullenix's joystick analogy:
But if that larger universe actually impacts on our own, then it isn’t separate from it – all we need to do is to enlarge our concept of the universe.
I think I see what the problem is here. You seem to be reasoning as follows. 1. Physical (or if you prefer, material) objects have physical properties, and no other properties. 2. The behavior of physical objects can be completely described by the set of laws they behave in accordance with. These laws can only make reference to physical parameters (see 1 above). 3. Consequently anything which acts on a physical object and manages to alter its behavior, does so by acting according to some law. 4. Any action which is performed according to some law is by definition physical (or "material" if you like). 5. Consequently anything which is capable of moving a physical object must itself be physical. 6. A force can be defined as that which changes the velocity of a physical object possessing a mass - i.e. changes its speed or direction. 7. Hence "non-material force" is a contradiction. The real problem with the argument is premise 1. If you believe in God, you have to believe that even material things have some non-physical properties - in particular, the preperty of being responsive to God's non-material acts of will. God's acts of will are not law-governed. That is, they do not conform to some mathematical equation. Hence these acts cannot be described as physical acts. They are immaterial acts. The notion of an object responding to someone's act of will may at first sound unintelligible. But instead of worrying about how an act of will could impact upon the motion of an object, it might be more profitable to ask: what would objects have to be like, for God to be able to move them at will? What sort of ontology would I have to adopt, for that notion to make sense? Try proceeding that way, and you'll find it very helpful. You mentioned McCabe. He is not quite right in saying that all forces in the universe are the actions of a non-material agent. When agents act in their normal manner, their action is their own, but there is also a parallel, concurrent action of God's, without whose constant co-operation the natural agent would be unable to cause the slightest effect. In addition to that, God maintains the natural agent in being. Hence there is a two-fold agency of God: conserving natural agents in being, and co-operating with them when they act on other agents. As you may have guessed, I'm a concurrentist. (McCabe is not; he's a conservationist, or what Alfred Freddoso used to call a weak deist. See section 1 of this paper of his, for a short and handy explanation of concurrentism: http://www.nd.edu/~afreddos/papers/chance.htm )vjtorley
January 20, 2012
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"we cannot extrapolate from human design to biological design." - Elizabeth Liddle I support Elizabeth's point on this and fail to see how vjtorley has addressed it. The ID argument that 'organisms' are/display (molecular) 'machines' has been suspect from the start, just as is the 'natural' scientific dependence on 'artifice' to qualify itself is wanting (i.e. Darwin & Wallace's 'natural selection' compared with 'artificial selection'). I've met enough engineers with sociology-envy to recognise an over-simplistic argument! ; ) We usually know that artefacts are designed, by definition; yet to claim 'design' as a formal cause (i.e. not efficient or material cause) 'in nature' is lacking demonstration in what vjtorley has written so far. How is vjtorley (or for that matter, Stephen Meyer) not in fact 'extrapolating from human design to biological design' in his approach?Gregory
January 20, 2012
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Hi Elizabeth, You raised a very interesting point in your last post (1.1.3.1.4) regarding Intelligent Design and its alleged equation of organisms with machines. A few quick points in reply: 1. I'm an ID proponent, and I certainly don't equate organisms with machines. There is one point of similarity though: machines work, and so do living things. Both have a function, or ergon. Living things (unlike machines) can also be said to have a good of their own, or telos, as shown by the fact that their parts and sub-parts (all the way down to the bottom level) exhibit dedicated functionality, and sub-serve the good of the whole. 2. Although living things are not machines, and cells are not machines, I would be happy to describe a component of a cell as a machine, in the case where each of the component's parts has a well-defined function, and we can explain the parts' workings in a similar way to the way in which we explain the workings of the parts of a machine. 3. If someone asked me what my main reason for believing ID was, at a gut level, I wouldn't cite the fact that organisms look like machines, or the argument from irreducible complexity, or the astronomical improbability of life originating as a result of non-foresighted processes, or for that matter abductive inference (intelligent agency is the best explanation we have for the cell). I'd go for something I call S.T.O.M.P.S. (Smarter Than Our Most Promising Scientists) - which, incidentally, will be the subject of a future post of mine. The idea is this. If you see an object which has some sort of function, and discover that the way it works is so elegant and efficient that it blows your mind, that's a pretty good sign that it was designed. If it not only blows your mind, but the minds of our most promising scientists, who find themselves saying things like, "Wow, I would never have thought of that solution to that problem," when they look at the way the object works, I'd say it's rational to believe that the object was designed. Coming up with elegant solutions to problems relating to making things work is a hallmark of intelligent agency. Dr. Matzke can scoff at the design of the female pelvis all he likes, but at the level of the cell and its components, we find a breath-taking degree of beauty, elegance and complexity, as these videos show (thanks, bornagain77): Powering the Cell: Mitochondria (2:09; no voiceover) Molecular Biology Animations – Demo Reel (1:43; no voiceover) The ATP Synthase Enzyme – exquisite motor necessary for first life (86 seconds; voiceover) Programming of Life – Protein Synthesis (2:51; voiceover) DNA Molecular Biology Visualizations – Wrapping And DNA Replication (3:07; voiceover) Astonishing Molecular Machines – Drew Berry (6:04, TED talk) Bacterial Flagellum (7:36; voiceover) It isn't just the design of cells' parts that suggests intelligent agency. If we go down one layer further and look at the code that produces all these parts, we also find signs of intelligence. A few years ago I read a paper called Astonishing Complexity of DNA Demolishes Neo-Darwinism by the Australian botanist Alex Williams. Williams is a young-earth creationist, but I don't let that bother me. It was what he had to say about DNA that got me curious. Parts of the paper are a little dated now, but these facts stood out: * There is no ‘beads on a string’ linear arrangement of genes, but rather an interleaved structure of overlapping segments, with typically five, seven or more transcripts coming from just one segment of code. * Not just one strand, but both strands (sense and antisense) of the DNA are fully transcribed. * Transcription proceeds not just one way but both backwards and forwards. * The same DNA molecules are used for multiple functions. The overlap of functionally important sequence motifs must be resolved in time and space for this organization to work properly. Pretty nifty, huh? Would you have thought of that? And even if you had, could you have implemented it? I was a programmer for ten years, and when I read this, it fairly blew my mind. I'll start taking the arguments of the neo-Darwinians seriously when they can design a molecule that transcribes information more cleverly than DNA, or that is better at replicating and evolving than DNA.vjtorley
January 20, 2012
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Can someone give me a specific example of something that they would like to examine, but cannot because of definitional fiat?Peter Griffin
January 20, 2012
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