Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

METHODOLOGICAL NATURALISM, REVISIONIST HISTORY, AND MORPHING DEFINITIONS

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Whenever I tune in to any discussion on the subject of “methodological naturalism,” I often marvel at the extent to which Darwinists will rewrite history and manipulate the language in their futile attempt to defend this so-called  “requirement” for science. In order to set the stage, we must first try to understand what methodological naturalism could possibly mean.

First, we have what one might call the “soft” definition, characterized as a preference for identifying for natural causes, a position which makes no final judgment about a universal  line of demarcation between science and non-science. Second, we have the “hard” definition as used by all the institutional Darwinists. In the second context, methodological naturalism is an institutional “rule” by which one group of researchers imposes on another group of researchers  an arbitrary, intrusive, and non-negotiable standard which states that scientists must study nature as if nature is all there is.

Ah, but that is where things start getting interesting. “How can you say that we are imposing arbitrary rules, Darwinists protest, when we are simply explaining the way that science has always been done?” Notice the deft change of cadence by which they shift from the concept of an unbending rule, which is the matter under discussion, to the notion of an often used practice, smuggling in the soft definition in the middle of a debate about the hard definition.  With respect to the latter, keep  in mind that no universally binding rule for scientific methods existed prior to the 1980’s, so there really isn’t much to argue about on that front. Rather than address the argument or  concede the fact, however, Darwinists simply evade the point, reframe the issue, and carry on a sleek as ever, hoping that no one will notice that the terms of the debate have been rewritten on the fly.

For that matter, not even the soft definition always applied to the earlier scientists, who simply used whatever methods that seemed right for the multi-varied research projects they were investigating. Some studied the law-like regularities of the universe, and it was in that context that they formulated their hypotheses. Others, more interested in outright design arguments, established their hypotheses on exactly that basis. Kepler’s laws of motion, for example, stemmed from his perception of design in the mathematical precision of planetary motion. Newton, in his classic work, Optics argued for the intelligent design of the eye and, at other places, presented something like the modern “anthropic principle” in his discussion on the positioning of the planets. No one, not even those who “preferred” to study solely natural causes,  would have dared to suggest that no other kind  of research question should ever be asked or that no other hypothesis should ever be considered.

What they were all trying to avoid was the commonplace and irrational  element of superstition and the notion that God acts capriciously, recklessly,  or vindictively,  without purpose or  thought. What they most decidedly were not doing was arguing that design cannot be a cause. On the contrary, they wanted to know more about the design that was already manifest—or to put it in the most shocking and offensive language possible—they wanted to know more about how God made the world so they could give him praise and glory, as is evident from the title page of many of their works.

If the universe wasn’t designed to be comprehensible and rational, they reasoned, there is no reason to believe that it is comprehensible and rational. Thus, there would be no reason to try to comprehend it or make rational statements about it. What would be the point? One cannot comprehend the incomprehensible or unravel the reasonableness of that which is not reasonable—nor can anything other than a reasonable being do the unraveling. They believed that the Creator set it up, as it were, so that there was a correspondence between that which was to be unraveled [the object of investigation] and the capacity of the one doing the unraveling [the investigator]. It would have gone without saying that the investigator and the investigation cannot be one and the same thing, meaning that both realms of existence are a given.  In order for [A] to correspond with [B], both [A] and [B] must exist. Thus, these scientists were 180 degrees removed from the idea that nature, one of those two realms, must be studied, as MN dictates,  as if it is the only realm. That would be tantamount to saying that nature must be investigated as if there is there is no such thing as an investigator–as of nature could investigate itself.

Returning to the present, methodological naturalists do not even have a coherent formulation with which to oppress their adversaries. Notice, for example, how selective they are about enforcing their petty rule, applying it only to ID scientists, and exempting all other researchers who violate the principle, such as searchers for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence and Big Bang Theorists.  Of course, what they are refusing to enforce in these cases are the hard definition, since ID qualifies under the soft definition.

Once this is pointed out, they morph the argument again, holding that MN, that is, the hard rule, is the preferred method for science because “it works.” But what exactly does “it” mean. Clearly, what works is not the rule because the rule, which presumes to dictate and make explicit what is “required” for science, is only about twenty-five years old. On the contrary, all real progress comes from the common sense approach of asking good questions and searching for relevant answers, using whatever methods that will provide the needed evidence and following that evidence wherever it leads.   For most, that means looking at law-like regularities, but for others it means probing the mysteries of information and the effects of intelligence. For some, it means conducting experiments and acquiring new data, but for others it means looking at what we already know in different ways. That is exactly what Einstein and Heisenberg did. We experience the benefits of science when we sit at the feet of nature and ask it to reveal its secrets, not when we presume to tell it which secrets we would prefer not to hear.

It gets worse. In fact, methodological naturalists do not even know what they mean by the two words they use to frame their rule. On the First Things blog, I recently asked several MN advocates to define the words, “natural” and “supernatural. After a series of responses, one of the more thoughtful commentators ended the discussion by writing, It seems that defining what is “natural” is one of the tasks before us.”

Indeed.  Now think about this for a moment. Entrenched bureaucrats, who do not know what they mean by the word “natural,” are telling ID scientists, who do know what they mean by the word, “natural,” that science can study only natural causes.  In effect, here is what they are saying: “You [ID scientists] are restricted to a study of the natural world, and, although I have no idea what I mean by that term, which means that I have no idea of what I mean by my rule, you are, nevertheless, condemned if you violate it.

There is more. This natural/supernatural dichotomy on which MN stands plunges Darwinists [and TEs, for that matter] in intellectual quicksand on yet another front, leaving them only one of two options:

[A] Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. Using that formulation, the paragraph I just wrote, assuming that I have a mind, was a supernatural event, which means I am a supernatural cause, —yet if I have no mind, that would mean that my brain was responsible, which would suddenly reduce me to a natural cause. This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it.

Or,

[B] Methodological naturalism defines all things that are not “supernatural” as natural, placing human cognition, human volition, earthquakes, and tornadoes in the same category. Indeed, everything is then classified as a natural cause—everything. So, whatever caused Hurricane Katrina is the same kind of cause that generated my written paragraph because, as the Darwinists instruct us, both things occurred “in nature,” whatever that means. So, if all causes are natural, then there is no way of distinguishing the cause of all the artifacts found in ancient Pompei from the cause of the volcano that buried them.  Indeed, by that standard, the archeologist cannot even declare that the built civilization of Pompei ever existed as a civilization, since the apparent evidence of human activity may well not have been caused by human activity at all.  The two kinds of causes are either substantially different or they are not. If they are different, as ID rightly insists, then those differences can be identified. If they are not different, as the Darwinists claim, then those differences cannot be identified, which means that whatever causes a volcano to erupt is comparable to whatever caused Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony to erupt.

By contrast, ID scientists point to three causes, all of which can be observed and identified: Law, chance, and agency. Once we acknowledge that point, everything falls into place. It would be so much easier to avoid all this nonsense, drop the intrusive rule of methodological naturalism, and simply concede the obvious point: Since only the scientist knows which research question he is trying to answer, only the scientist can decide which method or methods are appropriate for obtaining that answer.

Comments
CJYman: “Is there any reason at all to suppose that law+chance can produce intelligence, when intelligence is founded upon patterns neither defined by law nor chance.” Mustela: “What patterns are those?” CJYman: "Essays, patterns of material in automobiles, information processing systems, coded language, strings of DNA, molecular machines, etc — basically all patterns neither defined by mathematical descriptions of regularities that emerge from the physical/material/measurable properties of matter and energy, nor best explained by chance." Mustela: "If you’re claiming that the human-generated artifacts in that list are a result of something other than natural processes, you’ve first got to demonstrate that humans are the result of other than natural processes." Those patterns above are the same type of patterns which are foundational to intelligence, and thus we have a closed loop which requires intelligence. Law+chance wont start the loop, since they produce neither those patterns which require intelligence nor those patterns which are foundational to intelligence. Mustela: "If humans are the result of natural processes, as all available evidence suggests, then so are artifacts created by humans (unless you have evidence of humans violating the laws of physics)." 1. What does "violating the laws of physics" have anything to do with it? 2. Define "natural." 3. What evidence suggest that law+chance (absent intelligence) will generate organized CSI, patterns not defined by law+chance, much less intelligence? You stated that there is evidence, so please show me it. Mustela: "With respect to the items on the list not created by humans, your final sentence ignores emergent properties. Just because strict reductionism fails to explain a phenomena does not mean that the phenomena is other than natural." Again, define "natural." If emergent properties won't explain essays or automobiles, why would emergent properties explain other events which are neither defined by law nor chance? If emergent properties do explain events not defined by law+chance, then they should be able to explain these comments of ours as well as automobiles, computers, etc. All examples of emergent properties which don't require intelligence are still definable by law+chance. Would you care to address the point and answer the question at the end of my comment here, since it is extremely relevant: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/polanyi-and-ontogenetic-emergence/#comment-337588CJYman
February 3, 2010
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Mustela: "The point is that, thus far in this thread, no one has provided any evidence that humans are anything but natural." Thus far in this thread, no critic has provided a useful definition of "natural" that can be used in the term "methodological naturalism" in such a way as to remove ID Theory from being considered as science. Furthermore, I have shown that law+chance is subservient to intelligence and that there are reasons why law+chance on its own will never produce intelligence. In fact, this is one of the hypothesis that naturally arises out of ID Theory. CJYman: "Are you asserting that law+chance can give rise to intelligence?" Mustela: "If by “law + chance” you simply mean natural processes such as the physics and chemistry we observe, there is no evidence that intelligence is a product of anything but." ... except that intelligence is founded on patterns not defined by physics and chemistry, just like this essay or an automobile, which I already explained to you. Mustela: "If anyone wants to provide evidence that something else is required, I would be very interested in seeing it." The evidence is in the fact that law+chance do not define intelligence, intelligence can generate law/algorithms and set of laws to control chance, so far intelligence is required to produce further intelligence, intelligence generates patterns that law+chance (absent intelligence) do not generate -- refer to tornado vs. burglar which you agreed with--, and consciousness is purely subjective whereas matter is purely objective. Where is your evidence that chance+law (absent previous intelligence) can produce even CSI, much less intelligence? Read through the link I provided for you and you will see the definition of law+chance as it is used in science. CJYman: "How can that happen if law+chance can’t even define the functional organization of the brain upon which you seem to imply is necessary for intelligence to exist." Mustela: "Do you have any proof that natural processes cannot, in principal, evolve a brain?" Define "natural." Mustela: "Alternatively, do you have any objective, empirical evidence that something other than natural processes actually did result in a physical brain?" Again, define "natural." I have already answered these questions with the definitions I have provided. If your definition of "natural" is merely "that which can be measured at least indirectly" (which is the only definition provided so far by the critics here), then since intelligence can be detected (as per your agreement with the tornado vs. burglar scenario) then intelligence is natural. But, then your question becomes meaningless, since anything other than "natural" merely becomes "that which we can not *yet* measure." If we used that definition as any sort of standard, science would grind to a halt. However, since there is a distinction between the effects of law+chance and law+chance+intelligence, there is usefulness in the distinction between "nature" as law+chance and "supernature" as intelligence, especially since as I keep reminding you, law+chance are subservient to intelligence and there are reasons (which I have already explained) why law+chance (absent previous intelligence) will not produce intelligence. That is exactly why I have stated over and over again that I see the distinction between "natural" and "supernatural" as artificial yet useful. There are two basic ways of defining the terms and both support the use of ID Theory in scientific investigation and make "methodological naturalism" a useless standard for excluding ID Theory from science. Mustela: “That’s a claim, not a definition. It requires evidence in support of it.” CJYman: "It’s a claim, based on observation, which is then utilized to explain a distinction between two concepts — “nature” and “supernature."" Mustela: "The problem there is the enormous potential for equivocation. The word “supernatural” has a lot of baggage associated with it." Exactly, and that is why StephenB and I are very clear in our definitions and how we are applying them. However, the critic ... not so much. Why? Because no matter how "nature" is defined, it becomes absolutely useless when used as a standard (MN) to exclude ID Theory as science. I began to explain this above in comment #152. Mustela: "I suggest that it is much more effective to speak in terms of natural processes, human intelligence, and similar specific terms, if one’s goal is to communicate the underlying concepts clearly." But we aren't speaking of merely intelligence associated with a specific looking bag of meat (human intelligence). Instead, we are speaking of the class of phenomenon known as intelligence, which we are already seeing in computers AI and as I've already explained there is no way to restrict intelligence to humans. Furthermore, as can be seen, nature can be defined in different ways. That is one of the points of this thread. It is the ID critic who usually refuses to provide an exact definition of the terms so that they can weasel around with the terms int he hope of showing that ID Theory violates the "ground rule of science" -- methodological naturalism. So, how are you defining "natural processes" and how are these processes related to MN, ID Theory, the term "supernatural," "materialism," and science? CJYman: "Oh, and why are you asking for someone to defend as assertion that intelligence violates physics and chemistry? No one has said any such thing here that I’ve seen." Mustela: "From the OP: Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. . . . This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it." What does this have to do with violating law of physics and chemistry? Mustela: "The claim on the table is clearly that the mind (and other entities claimed to exist) are immaterial. That certainly isn’t supported by any peer-reviewed data or the known laws of physics." Depends on how one defines "material." AS I've already stated, consciousness is subjective, so if material -- matter/energy -- is objective, we have two completely different classes of phenomenon. Conscious/subjective/immaterial and matter/energy/objective/material. Mustela: "In fact, I’m not sure how one would distinguish between immaterial and non-existent." It is quite a conundrum and it depends entirely on how one is defining the relevant terms. Is everything that exists even material -- in the sense of little balls of matter -- or is everything "merely" the result of probability waves and their interactions? Is consciousness "real." Are thoughts "material." Do thoughts "exist?" Can things exist and not be material? Can you sense someone else's thoughts or consciousness? If not, are thoughts "real?" Are electromagnetic fields "real/material" or are they merely a mathematical way of envisioning/representing something we will never really understand. Also, if Penrose and HAmeroff are right about their theory of consciousness, then consciousness is fundamental *alongside* matter and energy and is thus not derived from matter and is thus "immaterial." However, and here is the interesting thing, ID Theory does not require the mind to be immaterial by any of the definitions of material that I've seen. It could be that the foundation of reality is an eternally existent set of laws which are sufficiently organized so that they are intelligent. ID Theory, as the ability to reliably identify previous intelligence would still work and it would still follow that law+chance on their own (absent intelligence) will not produce certain events.CJYman
February 3, 2010
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CJYman @ 264, “That is the only definition of “natural” that the critics have provided.” I don’t think so CJ, both efren ts and I further qualified natural as being only that which is congruent with known physical laws. That is, both we and bears can act as part of nature, but only so far as the natural laws allow us to. The distinction between the posited supernatural here is that, as Behe said in Dover & others in ID movement have stated, the bacterium flagella couldn’t possibly by any known applicable natural laws have evolved its motor system. That is he says not only can it not be naturally explained, but only that a transcendent supernatural agent which can suspend & work outside of & beyond such natural laws, could create the flagella. "Not one single ID proponent here has ever argued for a violation of law. If they have, I will argue with you against that position.” I could be wrong, but I think it’s all there in which Behe comments that only a sort of transcendent being could go beyond the natural laws to produce something that natural laws itself wouldn’t allow for. I don't recall the other 2 whom where there defending ID, but they too I think held the same sentiment that only a trancendent being could act above natural laws. http://www.pamd.uscourts.gov/kitzmiller/kitzmiller_342.pdfagentorange
February 3, 2010
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Clive @ 262, “never understand thought unless you ask the person what they were thinking” I wouldn’t use such categorical statements Clive, science has a history of showing them to be dead wrong. I don’t think we can, yet, accurately know what one is thinking as a thought is occurring, as in ‘they are thinking about shaving’, however we do have evidence of when a person is thinking in certain modes of thought, e.g love, disgust, hatred, etc. so these thoughts are readily identifiable in neural scans. In this sense thoughts of fairly specific things are & have been measured. As for you asking for some way of performing mind reading as a fault of science is laughable, there is no need sir, all that is needed is to show a definitive correlation of cause & effect between the chemical reactions in the physical brain & how they translate to modes of thought. This is sufficient to conclude that physical reactions in the brain translate into our perceptions & thoughts, which is after all what you were trying to demonstrate otherwise. It’s not a coincidence that such neural scans indicate brain activity is specific areas when one is shown a picture of something they have an affinity (love) for or where they’re introduced to a strong smell they have strong memory about. It’s a chemical brain reaction that much is clear. “it reduces all thoughts to movements, which cannot be either true or false movements, but only describable by geometrical relations” I don’t understand your dilemma. The movements of chemicals in the brain are involved in thought, it’s not even up for debate, and this is known empirically as we can measure how the brain chemically responds to certain external stimuli. So you have geometrical relations in which neurons are transmitting information in which we call ‘thoughts’, and what’s so incomprehensible there? “It is a category mistake to claim that a thought measured at “one inch plus a certain speed and velocity” produced a “true thought” Well of course it is Clive, just as it’s a category mistake to claim that a tornado storm is measured “one inch plus a certain speed and velocity” at the atomic level, such natural phenomena of tornado’s & consciousness occurs only as an aggregate. Only as an end result of the aggregate pattern does either occur. This is why when a person suffers PVS their consciousness is changed as the neurological pattern is disrupted, clearly you wouldn’t say Teri Shivo is having the same thoughts as she was prior to the accident as she’s barely even responsive to external stimuli much less can she identify herself in a mirror. Notice how in all the attributable causes of PVS, they are, without exception always reducible to the physical brain, and moreover specific sections in the brain that are responsible for these associated aspects of core consciousness. Now why might that be? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_vegetative_state “You always, and in every case, have to ask the person what they were thinking,” On the most minutia of the details, so far yes. But we can in neural studies determine the mode of thought, which is ‘is this person having a thought about love, or anger, or empathy, or confusion, etc. etc. These are very easy to recognize as they specifically correlate to certain sections in the brain & without variance across age, race, gender, etc. I’m sorry Clive, but you’re bearing down for science not having all the answers right now, whilst ignoring the obvious physical brain’s chemical reactions to thinking/thought/consciousness is unreasonable. The brain is very complex structureagentorange
February 3, 2010
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CJYman at 264, I want to pull out one point so that it doesn't get lost in an already too long post. CJYman: "Is there any reason at all to suppose that law+chance can produce intelligence, when intelligence is founded upon patterns neither defined by law nor chance." Mustela: "What patterns are those?" Essays, patterns of material in automobiles, information processing systems, coded language, strings of DNA, molecular machines, etc — basically all patterns neither defined by mathematical descriptions of regularities that emerge from the physical/material/measurable properties of matter and energy, nor best explained by chance. If you're claiming that the human-generated artifacts in that list are a result of something other than natural processes, you've first got to demonstrate that humans are the result of other than natural processes. If humans are the result of natural processes, as all available evidence suggests, then so are artifacts created by humans (unless you have evidence of humans violating the laws of physics). With respect to the items on the list not created by humans, your final sentence ignores emergent properties. Just because strict reductionism fails to explain a phenomena does not mean that the phenomena is other than natural.Mustela Nivalis
February 3, 2010
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PS: KF states at 263:
o, you cannot simply assert that somehow they “must” reduce to matter and energy acted on by blind chance and mechanical necessity for so long. You have to SHOW that.
It doesn't work that way. Mustela and I have made two assertions, one positive and one negative. The positive assertion is that there is a significant (and perhaps exclusive) natural/physical component to human cognition. The negative statement is that there is no evidence of anything beyond the natural aspects of human cognition. As far as the positive statement, we point to the extensive body of scientific knowledge in fields of psychiatry and neuroscience, to name but two. But, you are asking Mustela to prove the negative statement. Surely, a classically trained individual such as yourself understands that you can't prove a negative. So, since you and Stephen are the ones making the positive statement that there is more to human cognition than the physicl/natural, the burden is on you to provide proof that human intelligence can operate independently of the physical form it is associated with.efren ts
February 3, 2010
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CJYman at 264, "He asserted a difference, just as he implicitly asserts that intelligence is not a result of natural processes." Eh?!?!?! You have never observed a difference in the types of events that say a volcano makes and the citizens of pompei themselves made, or a difference in a tornado’s effects vs. a burglar’s effects? I never said that. I even pointed out that the types of events caused by a volcano are different from the types of events caused by a tornado which are different again from the results caused by a human or animal. There are a wide variety of results possible from natural processes. That's not really the point. The point is that, thus far in this thread, no one has provided any evidence that humans are anything but natural. Are you asserting that law+chance can give rise to intelligence? If by "law + chance" you simply mean natural processes such as the physics and chemistry we observe, there is no evidence that intelligence is a product of anything but. If anyone wants to provide evidence that something else is required, I would be very interested in seeing it. How can that happen if law+chance can’t even define the functional organization of the brain upon which you seem to imply is necessary for intelligence to exist. Do you have any proof that natural processes cannot, in principal, evolve a brain? Alternatively, do you have any objective, empirical evidence that something other than natural processes actually did result in a physical brain? "That’s a claim, not a definition. It requires evidence in support of it." It’s a claim, based on observation, which is then utilized to explain a distinction between two concepts — "nature" and "supernature." The problem there is the enormous potential for equivocation. The word "supernatural" has a lot of baggage associated with it. I suggest that it is much more effective to speak in terms of natural processes, human intelligence, and similar specific terms, if one's goal is to communicate the underlying concepts clearly. Skipping a bit, to get to the core of the issue. . . . Oh, and why are you asking for someone to defend as assertion that intelligence violates physics and chemistry? No one has said any such thing here that I’ve seen. From the OP: Methodological naturalism conflates all immaterial, non-natural causes, such as Divine intelligence, superhuman intelligence, and human intelligence, placing them all in the same category. . . . This is where the Darwinists take the easy way out by simply declaring that there are no immaterial minds, while the TE’s split their brains in two pieces trying to make sense of it. From StephenB at 9: "How would an immaterial mind work? Any measurable testable ways of narrowing down what this entails?" What does the question about how minds work have to do with MN’s assumption that they may not, under any circumstances, be considered as a possible cause? And again at 205: Except for epiphenominalists, who seek to have it both ways, everyone knows that a mind is thought to be an immaterial entity, as is the soul, as is the will, and everyone knows that the brain is a material physical organ. So, when you hear me speak of mind, be sure that I am referring to an immaterial faculty of the soul, which, as long as it is housed in a body, cannot function in the absence of a physical brain, but can, nevertheless do things that the brain cannot do The claim on the table is clearly that the mind (and other entities claimed to exist) are immaterial. That certainly isn't supported by any peer-reviewed data or the known laws of physics. In fact, I'm not sure how one would distinguish between immaterial and non-existent.Mustela Nivalis
February 3, 2010
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Vtorley @ 253, “the scientific method only works in a universe where both natural objects and the minds that try to understand them have the right kinds of properties” Quite tautological VJ. It apparently has been & is working quite fine (again all those fruits), if we’re not quibbling over the efficacy of the method, then what is your point? “which is what we’d expect only in a universe designed by a Transcendent Mind whose nature made it want any other minds it created to be capable of discovering truth too” B/c you’re appealing to an ever greater level of complex intelligence & mind, one which b/c it is external to this physical world & thus untestable in principle it immediately ceases to be science at all, what might we ask ordered it such that this ‘trancesedent mind’ was able to act as you claim? You see, you can’t in one hand claim that our intelligence required a transcendent mind without explaining how the transcendent mind you appeal to itself obtained its intelligence. You’re claim is roughly that only a transcendent mind could put the nature as such to allow for beings to understand itself & the world its in, but what then put the pieces in place for this transcendent mind to operate at such as you claim? “the planets on which these intelligent creatures dwelt were reasonably resilient against unexpected changes” Yes, let’s not for a moment consider the vastness of the cosmos in terms of space & time, & how many 100’s of billions of galaxies are known in just the observable universe. Lets utterly think that the whole thing was built for little ol us. Honestly now. What part of black holes, quasars, or gamma ray burst, say nothing of all the earthly disasters which keep life on a knifes edge which are utterly hostile to life bespeak any such plan? Are such facts as the collision between the milkway and andromeda galaxies bespeak something a mind would clamor for? “Any minds that appeared in such a universe would have been finely honed to discriminate between hypotheses with harmful or fatal consequences, and hypotheses with beneficial consequences. But that’s quite a different thing, conceptually, between discriminating between truth and falsehood.” No not really. Again I can use the hammer thought experiment, if you think your thoughts aren’t reliable at least to the degree to be trusted get w/ it and pick up the hammer. We have natural phobias which help in our survival. In our relative sense these are truths as they’re meaningful to us. Further if you don’t trust such a thought, then see what happens when you jump off a 10 story building. “Nor does it mean that we should trust it” Ok, we’ve already established that the SM is the best we currently have; you’re not questioning its fruits so it would appear you do grant that on some level what is does say about reality is accurate. As mentioned before it’s not a perfect method but in for what it allows in being robust & able to include new evidence & continually allow for refinement it’s hands down the best method we have. So like it or not, even it’s still the preferred method. “one of which pointed north only 2% of the time and the other of which pointed north 5% of the time” This is an obvious question; any reasonable person would take the one w/ by its method allowed for the lowest margin for error & further allowed for new evidence to refine & hone its accuracy. In this sense it would be like asking, which compass would you prefer, the one which points north 90% of the time, or the other which points north 95% AND allows for further accuracy as its method is able to refined based on evidence. Even a child can understand that an answer which incorporates more consistent evidence & thus is based on a higher probability more likely to be congruent with reality would opt for that method over one in which is less probable & doesn’t allow for refinement. Again, it comes down to ‘we have a method, & it works fairly well, look at the fruits’, so I ask you what is the alternative method you have for discovering reality more accurately? Better to have some method which describes reality even to a degree accurately over none, yes? If you don’t have a plan B, then why the issue? “why not just give up trying to find your way north?” Ha – give up the pursuit of knowledge of reality? Not a chance. Again, I don’t have to go over all the fruits of science which have improved the quality of life for humans, so obtaining such knowledge is useful, if not integral to our continued survival as a species. As you know, there are many massive extinction events associated with life on earth, & understanding this & the mostly likely method for avoiding such fates stem from the result of science. “In other words, abandon speculation about the past” No, all evidence in physical reality is fair game. You may not like that science attempts to learn the answers, but that says more about you then the method itself. Past is prologue, so in order to comprehend how to survive when our sun goes supernova stems from understanding that the sun operates this way which leads us back to the past occurrences of this. “If a Darwinian account of mind is correct, we don’t have to engage in these pursuits; they won’t make us any happier, after all” I disagree. Many find the discoveries of science to be quite humbling (hubble deep field, mapping of the human genome, for instance). These answers not only address fundamental questions about who we are, where we come from, & our place in the cosmos. Again, I must stress, science isn’t about in the end making people happy, it’s about accurate knowledge. If you find some meaning or hapiness in such discoveries, great, if not, well that’s sad. So, despite the overwhelming evidence that such an appealing concept like Astrology is absolute bunk, some prefer it b/c it makes them happy & feel special. This is not a deficiency of the science method, it’s a deficiency of the person who’d rather live in the Matrix of make believe rather than having to face the cold hard facts. “For any finite set of observations, the number of explanatory hypotheses which is compatible with those observations is infinite” Yes, but as you know all the consistent evidence cannot be pointing towards mutually exclusive models. This consistency is why we reasonably hold to such tentative models as they become refined further to become theories as they incorporate more independent levels of evidence. Again, to suggest such a method is fatally flawed one need only to look at the fruits of the method & how much it’s grown over the centuries & then digest how such a flawed method could produce such fruits in the first place. “cognitive blind-spots, which sometimes lead to mistaken judgements on our part?” Such cognitive blind spots exist regardless of if we’re to assume a darwinian premise or not, so it’s not exclusive to investigation of reality in using the method of science, it would of course extend towards any other possible methods or revelations. The method of science requires objective testing of evidence & that all results be testable by others & further that they’re done in a impartial way. “a theistic account of the mind would predict that cognitive blind spots we suffer from are not pervasive” Interesting in how your contradict your statements earlier, only earlier you commented that: “which is what we’d expect only in a universe designed by a Transcendent Mind whose nature made it want any other minds it created to be capable of discovering truth too”. It’s odd that you’d contend that our minds were formed in such a way so as to understand all of reality whilst limiting us to the middle ground in which we commonly live. I guess the transcendent mind you appeal to didn’t give us the operative ability to comprehend such spectrums easily. Design fail?Fancy that one. Theistic account or not, we do have some blind spots, we’re not equipped/evolved to comprehend the very large or small scales of the universe, nor are our brains great at crunching vast numerical equations as quickly as computer device. There are evolutionary accounts & valid reasons for why such concepts we have a hard time of grasping aren’t those which would be favored for in our evolutionary past. But is there any account as to why a transcendent mind would set it up in such a way? And if so, explain how it’s done. “How do we know when to abandon a bad hypothesis?” When it’s been falsified, or when it doesn’t fit in with the existing consistent data. Any such conclusion is contingent ultimately on the evidence & data, so when there is enough data to rule out X hypothesis or being related or accurate, then it’s pushed aside like astrology & the like were. Again, if this process of rejecttion isn’t valid, we shouldn’t expect legitimate fruits from the method as it would be aimlessly wandering in the dark, but we don’t find that, we find it works. “On a Darwinian account, our brains evolved to confront short-term, present dangers, not long-term or absent ones” I disagree. Part of what makes us special is that we have a good ability to remember past events & much our ability to see it through such future harsh times is learning from the past & virtualizing possible future scenarios in which we plan ahead in order to mitigate their impact. Part of this involves preparation of events that are expected to occur based on past evidence; such that when they occur we’re less affected & more likely to survive. In this sense it’s more sensible to ones survival to prepare for such events, even if they’re unlikely or less serve than forecasted, as the consequences of not acting are harsh. One could equate this with how we work in detecting agency & how in the past in both instances it was better to be safe than sorry. Such long term planning ahead is quite unique. “that the burning of fossil fuels was beneficial to society in the long run, and posed no danger to the earth’s climate” This is early on as new evidence is being formed, so the hypothesis, if it was even ever stated wouldn’t have been supported by a lot of data in the first place. The other issue is ‘whom’ in society in this hypothesis specifically is benefiting from such actions? “no-fault divorce would not harm” I’d be interested in where this supposed hypothesis was even ever made let alone the studies which support the conclusions as you say they do. ‘Harm children’, can you specify some details in how & studies to support it? I trust I am not being unreasonable. “You might argue that in the very long run, as we continue to pursue the scientific method, we’ll get closer to the truth” Yes, that’s in part why it’s called a pursuit of knowledge/truth, it’s not a declaration of truth or absolute knowledge. The journey is important, not just the destination. The method is one of refinement, take for instance how relativity was incorporated into physics, in where continual progression is the norm, & one need only refer to the past centuries to get a feeling of its headway of discovery. “that our hypotheses are approximations to an unattainable ideal: Truth with a capital T” Yes, this is correct, but again these approximations must be fairly accurate if they bear fruits, right? The method allows for great increases of knowledge, but it’s hard to suggest any such model or theory is beyond reproach, they’re tentative, however they explain a great deal about reality that any reasonable person can see that their fruits are indicative of how reality works & that they’re congruent that asking for it to be any such absolute final for all time is missing the point of what the method delivers & continues to do so, just as you do now. “could not make any absolute statements about past events that no-one had observed” Absolute, no, but accurate based on evidence YES VJ we can. I must stress, it'st not a position of absolute, refer to method and you'll see it plain. We do so in the very same way of analysis of direct & indirect observations which lead to a conclusion. Keep in mind, the evidence of atoms is based on indirect evidence as we’re not directly witnessing the atoms themselves but rather how they interact w/ other particles around them & the maths used to predict their movements accurately to such a high degree is used to infer their existence. By your logic just b/c no one directly witnessed a murder, we’re not allowed to use the DNA evidence, or the finger prints on the gun, or the caliber of the gun, & so on in incriminating the person in the murder. “that the universe is the creation of a supernatural Deity whose nature precludes it from deceiving us, Such a Deity could be trusted” Here’s where you derail & go away from the method of science, but I guess that would explain why you’d want us to abandon it. What part unfalsifiable is beyond you? Ok, how does one for instance attribute such design to deity X over deity Y? Where is the objective evidence we can test that only deity X operates according to such, & not deity Y? You see, not only can you not offer either, but you couldn’t distinguish from either in any meaningful way so to claim X deity was responsible for design Z & not deity Y. In this you’d have no way to determine which supposed deity was responsible let alone if they’re being deceptive or not. It becomes all fluff & hand waving. Consider for a moment the evidence of Human Chromosome 2 Fusion. How could this evidence be used in your manner in which you claim the designer isn’t being deceiving? Is this from deity X or deity Y, 7 further how can you objectively show this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPp0c_5_m6Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-WAHpC0Ah0 By the way, I noticed through all your talk, that you haven’t you offered any other philosophical method which could possibly be more accurate than the one which you rally against, now why is that?agentorange
February 3, 2010
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KF at 263:
It has been shown that we may distinguish chance, law and intelligence per empirical characteristics of events.
Not to answer for Mustela, but at issue here isn't that we can distinguish one from the other. The issue is whether they are mutually exclusive categories as you and Stephen assert.efren ts
February 3, 2010
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kairosfocus at 263, Don’t you see that you are reversing a burden of proof improperly? On the contrary, it is StephenB who is failing to meet the burden of proof. He is asserting, implicitly within his definition, that human intelligence is not the result of natural processes. That positive claim requires evidential support. It has been shown that we may distinguish chance, law and intelligence per empirical characteristics of events. No, it has not. It has been shown that in some cases it is possible to distinguish between the results of actions of humans and the results of non-intelligent processes (e.g. volcanoes). ID proponents have claimed to be able to reliably distinguish between some abstract notion of "intelligence" and non-intelligent processes, but no one has come forward with an actual calculation of CSI (the intelligence metric most often mentioned) for a real biological artifact, taking into account known physics, chemistry, and evolutionary mechanisms. This has been covered in other threads; in none of those was such evidence produced.Mustela Nivalis
February 3, 2010
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Mustela: "You’ve just pointed out exactly where StephenB assumes his conclusion." CJYman: "Ummm … not really. He observed that there is a fundamental difference between events which are defined by law and those which are defined by intelligence." Mustela: "He asserted a difference, just as he implicitly asserts that intelligence is not a result of natural processes." Eh?!?!?! You have never observed a difference in the types of events that say a volcano makes and the citizens of pompei themselves made, or a difference in a tornado's effects vs. a burglar's effects? Serious?? I'm sorry, but if that is the case, you'd make a lousy archaeologist, forensic scientist, SETI researcher, cryptologist, etc. As to intelligence not being the result of natural processes, that depends on which definition of "natural" you are using, as I've explained earlier in my comments above. Are you asserting that law+chance can give rise to intelligence? How can that happen if law+chance can't even define the functional organization of the brain upon which you seem to imply is necessary for intelligence to exist. Did you read through the link I posted in my last comment? Mustela: "That’s a claim, not a definition. It requires evidence in support of it." It's a claim, based on observation, which is then utilized to explain a distinction between two concepts -- "nature" and "supernature." CJYman "Hence his tornado vs. burglar or volcano vs. citizens of Pompei analogies. He observed a fundamental difference between two basic categories of cause and the resulting effects, he didn’t merely assume such a difference." Mustela: "That’s not quite accurate. Volcanoes and tornadoes, for example, have very different results, but both are natural phenomena according to most people in this thread." Natural by what definition? I agree that they are both "natural" according to the definition: "that which is able to be measured at least indirectly." That is the only definition of "natural" that the critics have provided. However, there is a fundamental difference between the two referenced causes in terms of both operation and results, thus the utility of using "natural" and "supernatural" to show the one way subservience of law+chance to intelligence. Thus, the distinction between "nature" and "supernature" is artificial yet useful to show fundamental differences. Yet, either way you define the terms, methodological naturalism becomes a useless concept for use as a "ground rule" in science, which is the main point of this thread. Did you miss my explanation of this in my previous comments? Mustela; "Human beings, with their intelligence, cause still other results, but no evidence has yet been presented to suggest that humans are anything other than natural." Again, it depends on the definition. Which definition are you using? Mustela: "No violations of known physics or chemistry have been documented to occur in our brains." Not one single ID proponent here has ever argued for a violation of law. If they have, I will argue with you against that position. So, I'm really not sure what your getting at here. You seem to be slightly confused about what we ID proponents think. Mustela: "The trichotomy of ‘law’, ‘chance’, and ‘intelligence’ implicitly assumes that the three are disjoint." CJYman: "Well, not so much for law and chance, but yes ID proponents usually discuss the issue as law+chance vs. intelligence." Mustela: "And that is exactly where the conclusion is assumed in the definition. Unless and until it can be demonstrated that human (or animal) intelligence is not a product of natural processes such as known physics and chemistry, any definitions that assume that conclusion are incoherent and useless." What conclusion? What definition? Did you not read the rest of my comment below that portion that you quoted. I explained how the observation that intelligence can generate law/algorithms and set's of law/algorithms that harness chance processes, and the observation that intelligence requires patterns which aren't even defined by law+chance, forms the basis for the understanding that law+chance is subservient to intelligence. Thus the distinction between "nature" and "supernature" as used by StephenB. Notice, also that in this way, "natural" and "supernatural" are not defined as being the negatives of each other. The distinctions merely show the heirarchy of one over the other, based solely on observation as already explained. Furthermore, I also explained how the "trichotomy" is also not really a "trichotomy" since the causal factors of patterns are as follows: -ahdMAET05935VNJF: chance -asdasdasdasd: law+chance -"can you understand this" law+chance+intelligence Until you provide any evidence that law+chance can generate patterns that it can't even define, such as the functional organization which lies at the root of the human brain, then there is no reason to suppose that intelligence can result from only law+chance. Also, this is consistent with Penrose and HAmeroff's hypothesis that places consciousness at a fundamental position alongside matter/energy -- in the quantum structure of our universe. Mustela: “Whether deliberate or not, this is an attempt to avoid having to demonstrate that intelligence is not the result of natural processes (which I presume is what is meant by ‘law and chance’, a term I find more obfuscating than enlightening).” CJYman: "Is there any reason at all to suppose that law+chance can produce intelligence, when intelligence is founded upon patterns neither defined by law nor chance." Mustela: "What patterns are those?" Essays, patterns of material in automobiles, information processing systems, coded language, strings of DNA, molecular machines, etc -- basically all patterns neither defined by mathematical descriptions of regularities that emerge from the physical/material/measurable properties of matter and energy, nor best explained by chance. I explained that in the link I provided in my last comment. Did you read through it? Or did I only include that link in my comment to someone else? Mustela: "We know that mental processes can be disrupted or changed through injury, we know the same about certain drugs, we can scan brain activity during particular activities and isolate the areas responsible, we’ve observed the formation of memories in animal brains, and there are even devices that allow people to control computers solely through thought. The link between intelligence and a physical brain is pretty well established." Yes it is. The discontinuity between consciousness (pure subjectivity) and matter (that which is objective) is also quite obvious. Furthermore, the only thing necessary for intelligence as we know it is a sufficiently organized information processing system. Thus, intelligence can reside in the human brain, an animal brain, a computer, a computing system made from materials that we don't presently use for computing, in a quantum computer, in quantum events, in the structure of the universe itself, etc. You seem to wish to constrain intelligence beyond what is reasonable -- to only the human brain. Mustela: "It is the claim that intelligence is somehow immaterial or in violation of known physics and chemistry that requires support. Thus far in this thread, no such support has been forthcoming." That is because none of those things need to be supported in order for the argument against MN as a ground rule of science, and thus disqualifying ID from being considered as science, to be negated. That is the whole point of this thread. ... but yes, the conscious aspect of intelligence is definitely immaterial since it is a subjective experience and matter is purely an objective phenomenon. Oh, and why are you asking for someone to defend as assertion that intelligence violates physics and chemistry? No one has said any such thing here that I've seen.CJYman
February 3, 2010
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Mustela Don't you see that you are reversing a burden of proof improperly? It has been shown that we may distinguish chance, law and intelligence per empirical characteristics of events. It turns out that the characteristic features of intelligently caused events or objects -- especially organised, functionally specific complexity -- are radically diverse from what one reasonably expects of the other two, in empirically observable ways. From being intelligent ourselves, we see as well that issues of imagination, creativity, purpose, and worse, of truth, of zero, of good, etc are hallmarks of intelligent action and of associated consciousness. A neural excitation is in so many pico-moles of ions moving, and it reflects so many millivolts of potential. this is simply not the same sort of entity as truth or false, good or evil etc. So, you cannot simply assert that somehow they "must" reduce to matter and energy acted on by blind chance and mechanical necessity for so long. You have to SHOW that. Which has simply not been done. Worse, we have seen that the assumption that such produce and control thought end up undermining the credibility of thought, i.e the assumption undergoes reductio ad absurdum. Trying to reverse the burden of proof simply will not cut it. Professor Feser says it well:
A reader writes to inform me of Alex Rosenberg’s very interesting essay “The Disenchanted Naturalist’s Guide to Reality.” Rosenberg’s thesis? That naturalism entails nihilism; in particular, that it entails denying the existence of objective moral value, of beliefs and desires, of the self, of linguistic meaning, and indeed of meaning or purpose of any sort. All attempts to evade this conclusion, to reconcile naturalism with our common sense understanding of human life, inevitably fail. Naturalism, when consistently worked out, leads to a radical eliminativism. Says my informant: “Why, it sounds shockingly similar to some things you once wrote in a book that was all about sperm, does it not?” Indeed, except that when I said it I was a “religiously inspired bigot,” whereas when Rosenberg says it he gets a respectful link, complete with a fanboyish exclamation point. Odd, no? Not really. Because in The Last Superstition I argue that the implications in question constitute a reductio ad absurdum of naturalism, whereas Rosenberg (who is himself a naturalist) regards them instead as a set of depressing truths we must learn to live with. As you’ll see from Rosenberg’s combox, not all naturalists agree with him. But naturalist religionists are an ecumenical bunch. They’ll allow you to draw any absurd conclusion you wish from naturalist premises, as long as (naturally enough) you never under any circumstances question the premises themselves. As TLS argues at length, the position Rosenberg rightly takes to follow from naturalism is not only depressing; it is incoherent. Therefore, naturalism is false. Furthermore (and as I also argue at length in TLS) there are no non-question-begging arguments for naturalism in the first place. Its hegemony over contemporary intellectual life owes entirely to a mixture of philosophical muddleheadedness, ignorance of philosophical history, and anti-religious animus. (Again, see TLS for the details.) . . . . Suppose (as I argue in TLS) that Rosenberg is right about what naturalism implies. In that case there are no beliefs or desires, nor is there any such thing as the “original intentionality” or meaning that common sense says thoughts have, and which it takes to be the source of the derived intentionality exhibited by language. But then, Rosenberg rightly concludes, there’s no such thing as “the” real or actual meaning of a work of art, a human action, or indeed of anything else. There is simply no fact of the matter about what anything means. So far so good, and so far what Rosenberg is doing is simply noting that Quine’s famous thesis of the indeterminacy of meaning is not some eccentricity on Quine’s part, but follows from the naturalistic assumptions Quine shares with most contemporary academic philosophers. The trouble is that if this is correct, then there is in particular no fact of the matter about what Rosenberg or any other naturalist means when he puts forward a naturalistic thesis. Objectively speaking there is no more reason to think that their utterances express a naturalistic position than that they express a Cartesian one or an Islamic one, or indeed that they are anything more than empty verbiage. The choice is purely pragmatic, or determined by social or economic forces or toilet training, or by Darwinian selection pressures, or by whatever it is this year’s clever young naturalistic philosophers are saying determines it. Now this is absurd enough, but naturalists have already long inured themselves to accepting such nonsense. Writers like John Searle have been pointing out the paradox for years, to no effect. It doesn’t phase the average naturalist, any more than the hardened criminal feels even a twinge of guilt upon committing his 345th felony. The mental calluses are too thick. You see, if naturalism leads to absurdity, then it must not really be absurdity; because, kids, naturalism just can’t be wrong. Only those dogmatic religious types think otherwise. But it’s worse than all that. For it won’t do for the naturalist to say: “OK, so we’ve got to swallow some bizarre stuff. But we’re just following the argument where it leads!” What argument? There’s no fact of the matter here either – no fact of the matter about which argument one is presenting, and in particular no fact of the matter about whether one’s arguments conform to valid patterns of inference. In the case at hand, there is simply no fact of the matter about whether Rosenberg’s own arguments (or those of any other naturalist) are sound or entirely fallacious. So why should we accept them? I suppose Rosenberg could always do what any serious philosopher would when dealing with those who stubbornly disagree with him – start a petition to pressure the APA to settle the question in his favor. But until that happens, we’ll just have to wait on pins and needles . . .
In short, there is plainly something very wrong in the state of materialism. g'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 3, 2010
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agentorange,
Thoughts in themselves are subjective experience, we don’t operate as a hive brain where we’re all sharing a vast neural network, & regrettably we cannot perform ESP, or telepathic thought, so you asking for such a thing ignores the component involved in expressing thoughts to others – communication.
This is your problem, not mine, just as you showing that zero and the square root of two is physical is your problem, not mine. It is the difficulty of the committed materialist, not mine. You can never understand thought unless you ask the person what they were thinking, movement in brain matter will not produce an understanding of what thought is occurring by itself, and this gets right to the heart of the impossibility of naturalism to account for consciousness. Besides, it reduces all thoughts to movements, which cannot be either true or false movements, but only describable by geometrical relations. It is a category mistake to claim that a thought measured at "one inch plus a certain speed and velocity" produced a "true thought", which can only be measured against other geometric measurements, which is exactly like saying that the thought is "true" because it wasn't measured at "two inches plus a certain speed and velocity". None of these descriptions of geometry will get you any closer to seeing or understanding an actual thought, much less of it being true or false by geometrical relations. You always, and in every case, have to ask the person what they were thinking, so it is always, and in every case, a matter of one mind asking another mind, and the tools of physical measurements never explain, they can only describe, but they don't have any way of explaining by describing. You cannot get an ought from an is, but you can help make sense of the is from the ought, but not the other way around. Clive Hayden
February 3, 2010
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CJYman at 243, "You’ve just pointed out exactly where StephenB assumes his conclusion." Ummm … not really. He observed that there is a fundamental difference between events which are defined by law and those which are defined by intelligence. He asserted a difference, just as he implicitly asserts that intelligence is not a result of natural processes. That's a claim, not a definition. It requires evidence in support of it. Hence his tornado vs. burglar or volcano vs. citizens of Pompei analogies. He observed a fundamental difference between two basic categories of cause and the resulting effects, he didn’t merely assume such a difference. That's not quite accurate. Volcanoes and tornadoes, for example, have very different results, but both are natural phenomena according to most people in this thread. Human beings, with their intelligence, cause still other results, but no evidence has yet been presented to suggest that humans are anything other than natural. No violations of known physics or chemistry have been documented to occur in our brains. "The trichotomy of 'law', 'chance', and 'intelligence' implicitly assumes that the three are disjoint." Well, not so much for law and chance, but yes ID proponents usually discuss the issue as law+chance vs. intelligence." And that is exactly where the conclusion is assumed in the definition. Unless and until it can be demonstrated that human (or animal) intelligence is not a product of natural processes such as known physics and chemistry, any definitions that assume that conclusion are incoherent and useless. "Whether deliberate or not, this is an attempt to avoid having to demonstrate that intelligence is not the result of natural processes (which I presume is what is meant by 'law and chance', a term I find more obfuscating than enlightening)." Is there any reason at all to suppose that law+chance can produce intelligence, when intelligence is founded upon patterns neither defined by law nor chance. What patterns are those? We know that mental processes can be disrupted or changed through injury, we know the same about certain drugs, we can scan brain activity during particular activities and isolate the areas responsible, we've observed the formation of memories in animal brains, and there are even devices that allow people to control computers solely through thought. The link between intelligence and a physical brain is pretty well established. It is the claim that intelligence is somehow immaterial or in violation of known physics and chemistry that requires support. Thus far in this thread, no such support has been forthcoming.Mustela Nivalis
February 3, 2010
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And so? He is there stating his faith, not his observation. In the cite I made [HT CJY, sorry . . . ] he is speaking of observations. Dissipative structures in nature -- vortices, etc -- produce order not complexity of organisation, much less ALGORITHMIC, language based functionality like we see in the cell. Gkairosfocus
February 3, 2010
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Crud, I screwed up blockquoting. Let me try again. KF:
“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and note added.) HT: VJT]
Would that be by the same Jeffrey Wicken who wrote in his book Evolution, Thermodynamics, and Information: Extending the Darwinian Program:
“In a universe where cosmic expansion maintains a disequilibrium between potential and thermal forms of energy, this means that putting smaller entities together to form larger entities will generate entropy through the conversion of potential energy to heat. Hence, the potential energy wells into which natural processes tend to flow are correlated with the buildup of structure … Dissipation is the driving force of the universe’s building up or integrative tendency. Entropic dissipation propels evolutionary structuring; nature’s forces give it form.”
Sounds like another dogmatic materialist to me.efren ts
February 3, 2010
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KF:
“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and note added.) HT: VJT] Would that be by the same Jeffrey Wicken who wrote in his book Evolution, Thermodynamics, and Information: Extending the Darwinian Program:
“In a universe where cosmic expansion maintains a disequilibrium between potential and thermal forms of energy, this means that putting smaller entities together to form larger entities will generate entropy through the conversion of potential energy to heat. Hence, the potential energy wells into which natural processes tend to flow are correlated with the buildup of structure … Dissipation is the driving force of the universe’s building up or integrative tendency. Entropic dissipation propels evolutionary structuring; nature’s forces give it form.” Sounds like another dogmatic materialist to me.efren ts
February 3, 2010
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On causal trichotomies: I find it interesting that there is an attempt to disparage the empirical observation that we see three common causal patterns:
(i) mechanical forces that act in predictable fashion once initial conditions are specified [e.g. a dropped heavy object reliably falls, and with a certain rate of acceleration, e.g. 2, formation of orderly crystalline structures on precipitation of a salt from aqueous solution], (ii) highly contingent outcomes that follow statistical/ probabilistic distribution patterns, under similar starting conditions [e.g. a dropped fair die distributes its outcomes --here regarded as uppermost side -- across the set {1, . . . 6}, also: formation of a tar in an organic reaction -- a combination of random polymers etc] (iii) highly contingent outcomes that reflect, not statistical randomness, nor highly simple and specific repeating patterns of order, but purposeful and complex patterns [e.g. sequences of glyphs constituting text sentences in English, and underlying ASCII code strings]
Now, what we commonly observe is that such patterns are mixed and matched in the real world. E.g. even fairly simple experiments in physics will have "noise" and show a scatter of results, so that we infer to lawlike regularities by abstracting out the high-frequency noise component. Similarly, when we monitor wind distributions, they usually exhibit a cluster of interesting patterns -- predominant direction, which may be seasonal, fluctuations in speed and direction from moment to moment that sometimes fit Weibull distributions, the rise in speed with height that the one-seventh power law often models, the power goes as cube of speed law [tracing to basic mechanics], the Betz power law on maximum energy extractable form a given wind of speed v [59.3%] etc. These exhibit law plus chance. And, as Wicken has highlighted [and as Trevors and Abel have further described aptly for sequences of symbols or the like, cf fig here], we may discuss intelligent cause, using ourselves as exemplars:
‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms [i.e. “simple” force laws acting on objects starting from arbitrary and common- place initial conditions] and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content . . . Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’ [“The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, 77 (April 1979): p. 353, of pp. 349-65. (Emphases and note added.) HT: VJT]
Let us observe: we have not made any major metaphysical commitments or assumptions: we are simply describing by classifying observations in an interesting and convenient way. (Is anyone out there prepared to argue that Wicken has not aptly described a real phenomenon as commonly accessible as buildings, cars and computers?) The key step is to abstract the point that each of he major causal forces has characteristic, empirically observable signs. So, we then will identify that so long as we have reason to see that he patterns are reliable, they can serve as identifying signs -- even as one routinely and with significant utility infers to diseases from their symptoms. And in all cases of such complex functional organisation where the chain of basic yes/no decisions required exceeds 1,000 [i.e. there is a 1,000 bit lower bound for practical purposes] we not only see that hwre we directly observe teh source it is intelligent, but on good configuration space grounds, we have reason to believe [the number of possible but non functional configs vastly overwhelms the number of relevantly functional ones] that such configs will only happen in the real world through intention and intelligent action. Further, we have no good grounds for asserting or inferring that we only are intelligent and capable of producing functional organisation. So, if we see such organisation we can credibly and confidently identify it as tracing to intelligent cause. But now, the censors come in: since there are two key cases -- organisation of cell based life, and organisation of a finely tuned cosmos to facilitate such life -- that an inference to intelligence is repugnant to the materialists, there is a strident objection on the pretence that there is a rule that science can only properly infer to chance + law. But, what is really going on is that there is a worldview level challenge and a power move is being played. As to the assertion or inference that chance + ne3cessity can /do give rise rto inelligence unaided, we simply note that [i] this has not been directly observed, [ii] the chief observed example of intelligence exhibits the precise sort of functional complex organization in view, [iii] in every case where we do observe the source of such FSCO/ FSCI directly, it traces to intelligence, and [iv] on mathematical grounds ther eis good reason for this. So, the inference from FSCI to design is strong inductively and based on DIRECT observations in the present world, and it is the objectors who properly have a burden of proof to meet. And whre rthe imaginative reconstruciton of a claime4d past of life is concerned, this is not a mat6ter odf direct observaiton but deeply worldview commitment linked inference. Direct observation trumps just so stories under materialist control any day. And so again we see MN is of no real use. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 3, 2010
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Quick note: Cabal, You are making a decision (under certain specified conditions), to push the button, so the cause of the cat's death is plainly and even trivially intelligent. Why did you ever wonder about that? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 3, 2010
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All right. Let us make a slight modification to Schrödinger's famous 'experiment': The output of the detector is connected to a light bulb on the outside of the box. When/if the bulb lights I push a button that will activate the cat killing device. My question is: Is that event, the demise of the cat caused by intelligence?Cabal
February 3, 2010
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Adel diBagno (#236) Thank you for your post. You cite St. Thomas, writing about scientific hypotheses used in his day to explain the movement of the heavens:
For although, when such hypotheses have been made, they appear to account for the phenomena, it is still not necessary to say that these hypotheses are true; because possibly the appearances of the stellar movements may be explained according to some method not yet understood by men.
Then you comment:
Here's a 13th century theologian explaining the nature of scientific hypotheses with an example that foreshadows the overthrow of Ptolemaic astronomy in the 16th century!
St. Thomas appears to adopt an "anti-realist" approach to scientific hypotheses here. He has an interesting ally: I believe Steve Hawking puts forward a similar view in A Brief History of Time. Ptolemaic astronomy was badly discredited by the appearance of more elegant hypotheses (the heliocentric hypothesis of Copernicus and later, the geo-heliocentric hypothesis of Tycho Brahe) in the 16th century, as you correctly write. Now let's fast-forward to the 17th century, and talk about Galileo. One objection put forward by Pope Urban VIII to the heliocentric hypothesis defended by Galileo was that it need not be true in an absolute sense; it might simply be better able to account for the apparent movement of celestial bodies than any other hypothesis we could propose. Galileo ridiculed the Pope's view mercilessly in his famous Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, putting the words of Urban VIII into the mouth of Simplicio, the simpleton in the dialogue. (I should add that at that the heliocentric hypothesis favored by Galileo actually failed to account for stellar observations as well as Tycho Brahe's theory, at that time, as stellar parallax was not observed until 200 years later.) I'm just curious. Galileo was the realist here, insisting that the heliocentric theory was the absolute truth. Whose side do you take in this affair?vjtorley
February 2, 2010
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agentorange (#233) Thank you for your post. In a previous post, I asked you why we should trust our thoughts, if the Darwinian account of thought which you propose is correct. Notice that I was arguing hypothetically. In your response, you wrote:
It's not rational on the one hand to say the [scientific] method is invalid or insufficient at describing reality to any degree whilst using the very technology spawned from its research. Such a stance is quite hypocritical.
But I wasn't criticizing the scientific method. I endorse it too. My point is that the scientific method only works in a universe where both natural objects and the minds that try to understand them have the right kinds of properties - which is what we'd expect only in a universe designed by a Transcendent Mind whose nature made it want any other minds it created to be capable of discovering truth too. Such a Mind would make a universe which was amenable to scientific investigation and discovery - e.g. one in which things had stable properties that were amenable to scientific investiagtion, behaved in accordance with laws which intelligent creatures could figure out, and in which the planets on which these intelligent creatures dwelt were reasonably resilient against unexpected changes (allowing civilizations to survive, for the most part). However, the scientific method could never work in a Darwinian universe, where minds had evolved purely to meet survival challenges. Any minds that appeared in such a universe would have been finely honed to discriminate between hypotheses with harmful or fatal consequences, and hypotheses with beneficial consequences. But that's quite a different thing, conceptually, between discriminating between truth and falsehood. Some of your post was taken up with irrelevant comments. For example, you wrote:
Let's suppose we dump science (darwinism as you put it) though for a moment, what shall we use in its place? What method of analysis has shown historically to yield more fruits & more accurate representation of reality?
and in a similar vein,
Let's suppose we use the bible, or one of the other ... books which claim revealed truth. [I]f we can't trust our thoughts, ... this would also impact our ability to read any possible revealed truth. Additionally any claimed truth by this means would not be the result of our own investigation, but rather assertions from on high which itself is found to vary with respect to the cultural form which it was spawned.
Now, I certainly agree with you that if a Darwinian account of the mind were true, it would be extremely unwise to place anny trust in the alleged revelations contained in any book. However, even if the scientific method is better than every alternative proposed to date (e.g. religion, astrology, voodoo), that doesn't make it a good method of discovering truth. Nor does it mean that we should trust it. If you had two compasses, one of which pointed north only 2% of the time and the other of which pointed north 5% of the time, would you trust either of them, or would you jettison both and maybe try to build a new compass? Or, if you couldn't do that, why not just give up trying to find your way north? In other words, abandon speculation about the past. For the fact is, our survival as a species doesn't depend on the results of our speculations about the beginning of the Universe or the origin of life on Earth, let alone the pros and cons of methodological naturalism. If a Darwinian account of mind is correct, we don't have to engage in these pursuits; they won't make us any happier, after all. But let's return to science. In defense of the scientific method, you wrote:
... the method of science & its requirements of verification dictate that only the most resolute models endure. It's a pursuit of truth, but alas it might not be possible that we will know everything about everything, & that which we know a great deal about we only know mostly to a degree.
In a Darwinian world, even under the best conditions you could ask for, the scientific method would only be good for eliminating bad hypotheses (i.e. empirically falsified ones). It would not be a valid method for arriving at correct hypotheses. For any finite set of observations, the number of explanatory hypotheses which is compatible with those observations is infinite. Given that (on a Darwinian account) our hypotheses are generated by our very finite primate brains, the vast majority of possible hypotheses that could explain a given set of observational data will forever lie beyond the reach of our imagination. That means we'll never dream them up in the first place, and hence never get round to testing them. Even if technological advances give us the power to dream up a greater variety of explanatory hypotheses than we could before (say, a trillion hypotheses, as opposed to only a million, prior to the technological advance), one trillion divided by infinity (the number of possible hypotheses) is still zero. There are other problems with the Darwinian model too. What about our cognitive blind-spots, which sometimes lead to mistaken judgements on our part? On a Darwinist account, we're likely to have lots of these blind spots - and they will still crop up, even if we attempt to resort to a more abstract level of cognition, to circumvent the limitations of "picture-thinking" (which is what someone who believed that abstract thinking is an immaterial process might do, when caught in a similar cognitive trap). If (as a Darwinist might expect), cognitive blind spots pervade our thought processes, that doesn't augur well for the scientific method, does it? (By contrast, a theistic account of the mind would predict that cognitive blind spots we suffer from are not pervasive, and that they arise as a consequence of the physical limitations of our brains - e.g. working memory overload - and that errors we make occur because of, rather than in spite of, the nature of our intelligence. For a scientific paper which illustrates how this kind of approach might work, see this 2008 article, "The Collapsing Choice Theory: Dissociating Choice and Judgment in Decision-making" by J.M.Stibel et al., in Theory and Decision: http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/id/TD%20choice%20and%20judgment.pdf .) And there's another problem with the scientific method, on a Darwinian account of mind. How do we know when to abandon a bad hypothesis? It's not an open-and-shut affair. For instance, should we jump ship regarding the hypothesis of dangerous anthropogenic global warming (i.e. more than 2 degrees Celsius), in the light of Climategate, doubts about the reliability of historical weather data from around the globe, and the problems with the IPCC's computer models? Or should we sit tight until a better model comes along? On a purely Darwinian account of mind, the way in which you react in this situation will depend not largely, but entirely on your personality characteristics, such as your need to conform to the thinking of the dominant power group, your inclination (or disinclination) to change your opinion in the light of new data, and your aversion to perceived risk (e.g. whether you accept the Precautionary principle). On a Darwinian account, our brains evolved to confront short-term, present dangers, not long-term or absent ones. That's bound to skew the way in which we reject bad hypotheses. On a Darwinian account, we simply may not be capable of thinking straight about certain kinds of dangers: we may either magnify them or ignore them, depending on which of our emotional buttons is pushed. (Did you notice how TV commercials featuring icebergs falling into the sea triggered a panic reaction among a certain section of the public?) Another problem you ignore is that hypotheses are seldom proved wrong immediately. What about hypotheses whose false consequences take generations or even centuries to become apparent? For a couple of practical examples, take the hypothesis, accepted by scientists and entrepreneurs alike during the Industrial Age, that the burning of fossil fuels was beneficial to society in the long run, and posed no danger to the earth's climate; or the naive social science hypothesis, propounded by well-meaning "experts" and adopted by legislators in the sixties and seventies, that the introduction of no-fault divorce would not harm children. What if these hypotheses are wrong? By the time we find out, it may be too late to change, and entrenched interests are likely to fight change, if it is attempted. The scientific method would then "work," but only over the very, very, long run. But in the long run, as Keynes used to say, we are all dead. And even as a species, we might easily wipe ourselves out in the short run. You might argue that in the very long run, as we continue to pursue the scientific method, we'll get closer to the truth, even if we never quite reach it. But when there is an infinite space of possible hypotheses, what does "closer" mean? The most we can hope for is that the hypotheses we come up with will have a slower turnover - that is, they'll take longer to get disproved, precisely because they are, as you put it, more "resolute." But that's a bad thing, not a good thing. It simply means that as we "progress," we'll move more slowly from one false model to a slightly better one. This is not a cheery prospect. Now, none of this would matter if your definition of "truth" were a purely pragmatic one - as it should be for every card-carrying Darwinist. And at one point you did indeed suggest that at bottom, you adhere to a pragmatist account of truth - for instance, when you wrote:
In short asking for a method like science to reveal absolute Truth with a capital T is to ignore how the process works. The practice is as much about the journey as it is the destination.
Even this is not a remark worthy of a pragmatist, for it suggests that our hypotheses are approximations to an unattainable ideal: Truth with a capital T. A real pragmatist would reject the ideal altogether, and say that truth is simply what works, over the time period that concerns us (be it seconds, days or centuries). In any case, as I have argued earlier, if there is an infinite space of possible hypotheses, then the notion of coming closer to the right answer makes no more sense than the notion of arriving at it. All right. Suppose you decide to become a consistent pragmatist. Fine. You could still engage in pure sciences like chemistry, so long as you accepted unobserved entities like "atoms" as nothing more than working hypotheses. I suppose you might even do physics - although I wouldn't bother building a Hadron Collider, if I were a pragmatist. But you could not make any absolute statements about past events that no-one had observed. In particular, you could not say that the Darwinian account of the human mind (i.e. that the human mind is a survival machine, produced by natural selection) was true "with a capital T." After all, how could you be sure? Ditto for philosophical naturalism. "OK," you might answer. "I'll be a provisional Darwinian. Maybe the human mind is not a survival machine. Maybe it's something else, for all I know." But the problem with this stance is that the pragmatist account of truth (which you still adhere to) stands or falls on the proposition that the human mind is unable to discern any other kind of truth, apart from "what works" - which makes sense only if the human mind is a survival machine. If you allow that it may not be, then your pragmatist approach to truth should be provisional too. Which brings us back to my earlier remark, which you failed to address:
Come to think of it, where do Darwinists get the notion of "true" from?
Sometimes it's better to re-examine your assumptions. If the Darwinian account of truth gets you in such a metaphysical bind, maybe it makes sense to consider the alternative, that the universe is the creation of a supernatural Deity whose nature precludes it from deceiving us. Such a Deity could be trusted, and a world created by such a Deity would be a science-friendly one.vjtorley
February 2, 2010
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Sorry, this should have read:
I thought due to formulating the FAQ pages and the Glossary kairosfocus would be promoted to the author/posting status first. I hope you received banning rights as well?
osteonectin
February 2, 2010
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CJYman at 227 :
efron ts, I apologize in advance for the length of this post, yet apparently I need to explain myself better than I have been since you seem to be ignoring my previous explanations.
I am not ignoring you. I forgot about you completely. I am not sure if that makes the hurt feelings go away, or rubs salt into the wound. Either way, I do hope you will forgive my grievous oversight. But since you have approached the issue head on (Apply directly to forehead!), I'll work from the assumption that you are approaching this in a forthright manner and won't engage in diversionary word parsing games, like others who will remain nameless. As you said, your post was very long. I am going to edit heavily in order to keep my response as short as possible, although it will still be fairly lo ng. I will admit to chopping off, and not addressing the latter parts of your post, which start to go beyond issues directly relevant to the discussion of methodological naturalism
I both dealt with the fact that your definition does not work to usefully separate the natural from the supernatural, since it is akin to stating that the supernatural = “that which we can’t *yet* measure,” and thus causes MN to be a gap maker and science stopper.
Well, we haven't worked all the way through the definition yet, but that is what we are doing here. But, I think your paraphrase is flawed in one way. I would define the supernatural as something that exists outside the physical world and is therefore will never be amenable to measurement. But, I recognize that, for all practical purposes, it is a distinction without a difference and I am not sure if it affects my point anyways.
Furthermore, StephenB didn’t “assume” that intelligence is not natural, he first defined natural as law+chance, then he noticed that there is a difference between things that can be defined by only law+chance and events that require intelligence.
By defining law and chance as mutually exclusive of intelligence, he has most certainly made that assumption. There is clearly a difference between the products of nature (using the classical definition for a moment) and the products of intelligence (classically defined as artificial). There is one significant commonality, though. Namely, both exist within the physical world, have material and measureable interactions with the physcial world, and are amenable to study. By defining natural as solely "law and chance", Stephen waving off that inconvenient fact. He is essentially frontloading his conclusion (that intelligence is not natural) into his definition. That is unwarranted because it ignores much of what we empirically know of human cognition and assumes as fact that which is not in evidence. I have addressed the latter problem with his definition ad nauseum, but let me ask you one question regarding the former flaw: Is biochemistry part of law and chance?
Then, I added the fact that law is subservient to intelligence (since intelligence can indeed design laws/algorithms and sets of laws/algorithms)
That statement is false. I can think of no gentle way to say this, but you are also assuming your conclusion and, for good measure, playing fast and loose with the word law. In the context of the laws which govern the natural world (on a lark I decided to name two of them Physics and Chemistry. Aren't they just darling?) all forms of known intelligence are subservient to law. I invite anyone who thinks differently to put there hand on the table while I go borrow agentorange's hammer.
and there is no reason to suppose that law+chance can generate intelligence on its own (absent previous intelligence)
I will certainly agree that the study of abiogenesis has a long, long way to go to generate a complete origins story. The ID movement merely sees the current state of the field and exclaims "Design!" In contrast, those nasty materialist scientists are not sitting back and exclaiming "Chemistry!". They are engaged in the far more mundane activity of lab work.
Third, StephenB has gone over that over and over and over again now, and you seem to not “like” what he is saying as well, since you seem to either flail around without addressing any supposed inconsistency in his position as it relates to MN and science.
You are correct that I don't like what he is saying. And I have repeatedly said why. I am quite sure that Stephen's arguments will flow quite logically from definition to denouement. But, any defect in the definitions will irrevocably taint any conclusions that are built upon them. So, Stephen can not just say that definitions are what they are and brush off any objections. Right or wrong matters because wrong is propogated. Stephen's definition is, at best, empirically unwarranted and, at worst, fatally flawed. And they will remain flawed until such time that he can demonstrate that human intelligence can operate independently of the physical body it is associated with.
The only requirement for intelligence is that a sufficiently organized information processing system exist.
Do you agree that all the sufficiently organized information processing systems that we empirically know about reside within the physical world and are associated with a physical form?
ID Theory in its present scientific and quantifiable form can only detect the existence of previous intelligence in an events causal chain.
ID isn't specifically detecting the existence of previous intelligent. What it is doing is looking for things that seem impossibly complex, exclaiming that evolution can't do that, the (always) forthcoming CSI calculation (I will gladly pay you tomorrow for a cheeseburger today) will prove it, and shoving it's designer into breach . At the risk of being accused of playing word games, I would amend your statement to say that ID Theory may present itself as scientific and quantifiable, but it achieves that to the same extent that Kabuki theatre is an accurate representation of the real events it may be based on.
If you disagree, then please show me what more ID Theory can do.
It isn't anything that hasn't been stated eleventy bazillion times before. Search for the designer. Suss out the means by which he implemented his design. Heck, I'd be tickled pink if someone actually tried to do a CSI calculation that correctly interprets how evolution presumably works rather than a using a clearly fallacious de novo model.
I actually see intelligence as perfectly natural. Yet, the point of this thread of StephenB’s is that no matter which way you define it, MN becomes useless in science (as opposed to the “ground rule” which some scientists wish to impose on others).
Well, to ground ourselves in the practical, science seems to be doing quite fine, thank you very much. Scientific knowledge has grown in the centuries since many of the eminent personalities mentioned above began searching for natural explanations for what they observed about them. And even if we accept, for the moment, Stephen's assertion that methodological naturalism wasn't imposed on the sciences until 1986, I think you'll find that Science ™ has not ground to a halt in the subsequent decades. Quite the opposite. But, let's look at the flip side of that coin. There are in existence a number of scientific organizations who ought not be constrained by methodological naturalism, like the Biologic Institute and the home organization of UD contributor Dr. Hunter, Biola University. Has being freed from the shackles of MN lead to a proliferation of scientific discoveries from these eminent institutes?
So long as that intelligence leaves effects, that intelligence is able to be studied in the same manner that the aliens who transmit a message to us would in theory be able to be studied based on the signal that they send. ...becomes perfectly natural in the sense of producing effects which are measurable, detectable, etc, yet is still supernatural in the sense of being “over” nature (law+chance).
The problem is that we know about human agents. We know what they look like, how the behave, techniques and tools they use to create affects, we even know where they live and what they had for lunch yesterday. It is presumptuous to assume that your hypothetical designer acts and works in a corollary fashion. And no one, but no one, in the ID movement is trying to figure any of that out. And without that type of program, the contemporary ID movement is indistinguishable from a case of group apophenia.efren ts
February 2, 2010
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HouseStreetRoom
On a side note, I’m glad to see you have author/posting status.
I thought due formulating the FAQ pages and the Glossary kairosfocus would be promoted to the author/posting status first. I hope you received banning rights as well?osteonectin
February 2, 2010
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InnerBling, @247 It should be noted that my comment in 179 was in regards to yours in which you stated: “If materialistic worldview is right it necessarily follows that you in fact do not exist because you are only an emergent property of matter and only matter exists.” For the record, I stated we do as a self, as an emergent property exist. But this identity of ‘self/mind’ is contingent on the material existing, & further that this pattern isn’t damaged to the extent to inhibit the required neural interactions which culminate ultimately in this perception. Such a perception of ‘self/consciousness’ can be impacted by drugs or severe brain trauma, even old age which effects neural connections from firing effectively can impact ones consciousness. Ever seen Momento? Such people w/ such brain trauma are very much the same physical person they were prior to the accident, but b/c of their brain injury they can no longer build upon their self identity, so while their extended consciousness remains, their core consciousness is different. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_consciousness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_consciousness We have studies of people on hallucinogenic drugs which altered their perception to where they not only think they’re talking & listening to god, some go as far to claim they’re god. Others still swear to be fictitious characters, or celebrities, so at the very least, with studies in general brain function correlation, specific brain function correlation, positive evidence mapping the mind to the brain, brain chemistry & mental function, & comparative anatomy & explicability there appears to be some connection between the physical brain & the how other physical chemical or structural changes can impact ones ongoing consciousness/self. As for your axiomatic description… Shouldn’t it be Consciousness is an effect, not just from mere inanimate matter, but rather from of a given structural pattern of matter & physical laws? To suggest it’s merely reducible just simply to ‘matter’ as is, regardless of its structural pattern, is to ignore that a material pattern (brain) & laws are required for this expression to occur, not just the material itself.agentorange
February 2, 2010
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Hey Mustela, nice to read you too again! Mustela: "You’ve just pointed out exactly where StephenB assumes his conclusion." Ummm ... not really. He observed that there is a fundamental difference between events which are defined by law and those which are defined by intelligence. Hence his tornado vs. burglar or volcano vs. citizens of Pompei analogies. He observed a fundamental difference between two basic categories of cause and the resulting effects, he didn't merely assume such a difference. Mustela: "The trichotomy of “law”, “chance”, and “intelligence” implicitly assumes that the three are disjoint." Well, not so much for law and chance, but yes ID proponents usually discuss the issue as law+chance vs. intelligence. Although, a better description would be that some patterns are best explained by chance, some best explained by chance+law, and others by chance+law+intelligence. IT is the later that ID proponents claim *requires* intelligence by necessity. ie: - uweb gifbp[09un n -- defined as statistically random, and lacking correlation, thus caused by chance (although, technically "chance" is a lack of cause or correlation). - afgafgafgafgafgafgafg -- defined by periodicity, algorithmic compressibility, with an element of chance (which letters were randomly selected to be repeated), and thus caused by chance+law - "Can you understand this?" -- defined by algorithmic complexity, lack of mere regularity, not defined by physical properties of the units, and meaningfully specified, and thus caused by chance+law+intelligence. There is room for chance+law as joint causal factors along side the necessary causal factor of intelligence, since language was fashioned partly by chance processes (civilization and culture splits and convergence, etc.). Mustela: "Whether deliberate or not, this is an attempt to avoid having to demonstrate that intelligence is not the result of natural processes (which I presume is what is meant by “law and chance”, a term I find more obfuscating than enlightening)." Is there any reason at all to suppose that law+chance can produce intelligence, when intelligence is founded upon patterns neither defined by law nor chance. How do you suppose we get something (intelligence) from nothing (lack of intelligence). The foundation for my thoughts on the matter can be found in my comments here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/polanyi-and-ontogenetic-emergence/#comment-337588 And, how do you find the terms "law" and "chance," as utilized within science to be more obfuscating than enlightening? Mustela: "Thus far in this thread, I haven’t seen anyone support this implicit claim. Failing to do so leaves the definitions incoherent and useless." ... and I have never seen anyone provide even theoretical support for the assertion that law+chance can give rise to intelligence. I have also provided the beginnings of reasons why law+chance won't generate intelligence in the above link. Basically, intelligence arising from only law+chance doesn't make sense on an intuitive much less on a technical/theoretical level since intelligence is composed of patterns which aren't even defined by law+chance.CJYman
February 2, 2010
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Agentorange objects to my argument by providing an analogy in 179. So let me give more rigorous premises of my argument. In materialist worldview: 1. Consciousness is made of matter and physical laws C = A + B 2. Nothing is greater than sum of its parts C !> A + B 3. Neither A or B has rationality, love , free will or consciousness as an attribute 4. Therefore A+B != C 5. Or if A+B = C, C is an empty set in regards to rationality, consciousness, free will or love because 0 + 0 = 0. Even though this is not an directly related to MN could other UD readers comment as well because I am trying to form as rigorous logical axioms as I can thanks.Innerbling
February 2, 2010
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Sorry, Adel, but it doesn't work. Everyone knows what a dessert is. On the other hand, no one knows what a Darwinist means by a natural cause. There hilarity comes from watching them trying to categorize that which has not yet been defined. But thank you for playing. In keeping with that point, would you care to rescue your comrades and explain what you mean by a natural cause.StephenB
February 2, 2010
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Also, let’s face it. It is truly ridiculous to suggest that a Boston cream pie and a banana are both desserts, and then, when called on it, weasel out by saying, “well yes, they are both desserts, yet they are, at the same time, different: The Boston cream pie is of the baked variety while the banana is of the fruit variety. Please!Adel DiBagno
February 2, 2010
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