Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Metamorphosis

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

The new video Metamorphosis presents the case for intelligent design in a powerful way. The metamorphosis from caterpillar to butterfly is a spectacular example of “irreducible complexity,” and here is why.

In my 2000 Mathematical Intelligencer article “A Mathematician’s View of Evolution,” I compared the development of the genetic code of life with the development of a computer program, such as my finite element code PDE2D . I pointed out that the record of PDE2D’s development would be similar to the fossil record, with large gaps where major new features (new orders, classes and phyla) appeared, and smaller gaps where minors ones (new families, genera or species) appeared (see also this short video). I argued,

Whether at the microscopic or macroscopic level, major, complex, evolutionary advances…also involve the addition of many interrelated and interdependent pieces. These complex advances, like those made to computer programs, are not always ‘irreducibly complex’–sometimes there are useful intermediate stages. But just as major improvements to a computer program cannot be made 5 or 6 characters at a time, certainly no major evolutionary advance is reducible to a chain of tiny improvements, each small enough to be bridged by a single random mutation.

In the real world of biological evolution, or of computer programs, “climbing up Mount Improbable” involves not just taking large numbers of tiny steps upward, but scaling many steep cliffs. You not only have to explain how the giraffe’s neck grew longer, but how the bacterial flagellum developed, with dozens of parts (each essential for function) similar to those of an outboard motor, or how aquatic bladderworts developed their carnivorous traps. These traps “have trigger hairs attached to a valve-like door, which normally keeps the trap tightly closed. The sides of the trap are compressed under tension, but when a small form of animal life touches one of the trigger hairs the valve opens, the bladder suddenly expands, and the animal is sucked into the trap. The door closes at once, and in about 20 minutes the trap is set ready for another victim.”

The problem with making this argument, as all who have tried it know, is that Darwinists have very fertile imaginations, they can imagine some alternative uses, some selective advantages, for the individual parts of a bacterial flagellum, or for a partially constructed vacuum chamber before it could catch small animals. No matter what example of irreducible complexity is set before them, they will propose far-fetched functions for 2 or 3 intermediate stages and consider the problem solved. Sometimes they can actually find the intermediate stages in Nature.

But metamorphosis is different. The process of transforming a caterpillar into a butterfly is surely far more complex than anything ever accomplished by man. The information needed to control this process, stored somewhere in the caterpillar’s cells, must be far greater than that stored in any man-made computer program. And explaining how this enormous program arose through many “5 or 6 character” improvements is even more challenging here, because now the intermediate stages are not just useless, they are fatal. Metamorphosis involves the destruction of the caterpillar: the butterfly, with an almost completely new body plan, is constructed from dissolved and recycled tissues and cells of the caterpillar. Now we are not talking about climbing Mount Improbable, we are talking about building a bridge across an enormous chasm, between caterpillar and butterfly. Until construction of this extremely long and complicated bridge is almost complete, it is a bridge to nowhere. Unless a butterfly (or another organism capable of reproduction) comes out at the end, the chrysalis only serves as a casket for the caterpillar, which cannot reproduce. Now we do not have to simply imagine uses for not-quite-watertight vacuum chamber traps, we have to imagine a selective advantage for committing suicide before you are able to reproduce, and that is a more difficult challenge.

Of course, if Darwinism fails to explain metamorphosis, we just have to wait for science to come up with an alternative theory; there is no need to resort to intelligent design, which, we are told, is not scientific. Well, we can define science to exclude intelligent design and wait as long as we want, but intelligence will still be the only force of Nature that can look ahead to see a desired function and keep adding useless lines of computer code until the code can perform that function, and it will still be the only force that can guide the development–gradual or not so gradual–of new organs through their initial useless stages. And it will still be the only thing that can imagine a butterfly as the final product and develop a gigantic code for metamorphosis, through intermediate stages which would produce nothing but the destruction of the caterpillar.

Comments
GinoB @ 7.1.1:
If the Big Guy Designer wanted a butterfly, why didn’t he just design a butterfly from the get-go like is done in so many other species?
When you see Him, ask Him.PaV
November 11, 2011
November
11
Nov
11
11
2011
09:30 AM
9
09
30
AM
PDT
When you see Him, ask Him.PaV
November 11, 2011
November
11
Nov
11
11
2011
09:28 AM
9
09
28
AM
PDT
Jello: We now know that what differentiates humans from chimps is not at the level of proteins, but that of genetic networks present in our DNA, and mediated in some way by transposons. DNA is more than a recipe. It doesn't just cook up proteins, but does much, much more. It has the ability to set-up communications networks at almost all levels of cellular organization. We also know that epigenetic markers can be inherited by non-Mendelian means. Very likely, during the destruction of the worm, certain epigenetic markers are put in place that 'adjust' the DNA programming so that during its reconstruction a butterfly emerges. This kind of genetic engineering cannot possibly come about through mere blind forces, but testifies, rather, to an intelligent agent at work. In the case of the worm turned butterflyPaV
November 11, 2011
November
11
Nov
11
11
2011
09:27 AM
9
09
27
AM
PDT
lastyearon:
The metamorphosis from a caterpillar to a butterfly is an example of observable evolution. We know it happens.
The fossil record tells us that "evolution" occurred. No need, then, to be looking at butterflies to determine that 'fact'. The question is not whether "evolution" occurred; the question is can Darwinism explain HOW evolution occurred. ID is not Creationism. There are atheists who espouse ID; and there are Creationists who do. But ID is its own program. And, as such, is a challenge to Darwinian orthodoxy.PaV
November 11, 2011
November
11
Nov
11
11
2011
08:25 AM
8
08
25
AM
PDT
Here is a better quality video of Astrophysicist Hugh Ross explaining the anthropic cosmological principle behind the immense size of the universe as well as behind the ancient age of the universe:
We Live At The Right Time In Cosmic History - Hugn Ross - video http://vimeo.com/31940671
bornagain77
November 11, 2011
November
11
Nov
11
11
2011
03:13 AM
3
03
13
AM
PDT
The expansion of the universe thing has always bugged me. Correct me if I am wrong, if we pick 30 equally spaced points on the earth surface and gaze into the sky, all the deep space objects are traveling away from us and the further away they are, the faster they are traveling? If we then find two deep space galaxies that are about the same distance from earth but one is directly above the north pole and one is directly above the equator, they should be traveling away from us at roughly the same speed, right? Can't we triangulate these two galaxies to determine the speed at which they are traveling away from each other? Wouldn't the only plausible explanation be that they originated at exactly our vantage point? Or am I totally missing the whole theory? Is the only reason we believe in uniform expansion is because we won't accept the earth is at the center of the universe? So are you saying my mother could have been wrong all these years when she told me I shouldn't be acting like I am the center of my own universe??Ultimately Real
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
08:46 PM
8
08
46
PM
PDT
further notes for finding 'purpose' where no purpose was expected to be found, at least from the atheistic/materialistic mindset; Many times atheists will (such as Carl Sagan did in his cosmos series) say that the immense size of the universe proves that we nothing but insignificant specks of dust, yet it is found that the immense size of the universe is necessary for life (and even each grain of sand in that immense size of the universe is necessary):
Evidence for Belief in God - Rich Deem Excerpt: Isn't the immense size of the universe evidence that humans are really insignificant, contradicting the idea that a God concerned with humanity created the universe? It turns out that the universe could not have been much smaller than it is in order for nuclear fusion to have occurred during the first 3 minutes after the Big Bang. Without this brief period of nucleosynthesis, the early universe would have consisted entirely of hydrogen. Likewise, the universe could not have been much larger than it is, or life would not have been possible. If the universe were just one part in 10^59 larger, the universe would have collapsed before life was possible. Since there are only 10^80 baryons in the universe, this means that an addition of just 10^21 baryons (about the mass of a grain of sand) would have made life impossible. The universe is exactly the size it must be for life to exist at all. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro2.html
Shoot we even exist at the 'right time' in history:
We Exist At The Right Time In Cosmic History – Hugh Ross – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5708578/
Though the preceding should certainly crush the Carl Sagan mentality of no inherent worth, or purpose, for human life, the following removes all doubt:
Centrality of Each Individual Observer In The Universe and Christ’s Very Plausible Reconciliation Of General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics https://docs.google.com/document/d/17SDgYPHPcrl1XX39EXhaQzk7M0zmANKdYIetpZ-WB5Y/edit?hl=en_US
Quote from preceding article:
I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its ‘uncertain’ 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created, and sustained, from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe:
Verse and Music:
Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. High School Musical 2 - You are the music in me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAXaQrh7m1o
bornagain77
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
07:07 PM
7
07
07
PM
PDT
lastyearon, as to meteorites and asteroids, it might interest you to know this fact:
Bombardment Makes Civilization Possible What is the common thread among the following items: pacemakers, spark plugs, fountain pens and compass bearings? Give up? All of them currently use (or used in early versions) the two densest elements, osmium and iridium. These two elements play important roles in technological advancements. However, if certain special events hadn't occurred early in Earth's history, no osmium or iridium would exist near the planet's surface. http://www.reasons.org/BombardmentMakesCivilizationPossible
So apparently some purpose from bombardment by meteorites, at least for technologically advanced civilizations, has already been discovered (and it would not surprise in the least me if more purpose was found for asteroids/meteorites). And thus, as trivial as this finding may seem to you, this is another example of the atheistic mindset, of presupposing no purpose in nature, derailing investigation instead of nurturing honest inquiry (Such as happened with junk DNA and vestigial organs etc.. etc..)(and as if 'science' was even possible from a purely atheistic mindset). notes:
Privileged Planet Principle - Scot Pollock (Notes In Description) - video http://vimeo.com/31904755
Even the orbits of the other planets, in our solar system, are starting to be discovered to be extremely fine tuned to make life on Earth possible:
Thank God for Jupiter - July 2010 Excerpt: The July 16, 1994 and July 19, 2009 collision events on Jupiter demonstrate just how crucial a role the planet plays in protecting life on Earth. Without Jupiter’s gravitational shield our planet would be pummeled by frequent life-exterminating events. Yet Jupiter by itself is not an adequate shield. The best protection is achieved via a specific arrangement of several gas giant planets. The most massive gas giant must be nearest to the life support planet and the second most massive gas giant the next nearest, followed by smaller, more distant gas giants. Together Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune provide Earth with this ideal shield. http://www.reasons.org/thank-god-jupiter Of Gaps, Fine-Tuning and Newton’s Solar System - Cornelius Hunter - July 2011 Excerpt: The new results indicate that the solar system could become unstable if diminutive Mercury, the inner most planet, enters into a dance with Jupiter, the fifth planet from the Sun and the largest of all. The resulting upheaval could leave several planets in rubble, including our own. Using Newton’s model of gravity, the chances of such a catastrophe were estimated to be greater than 50/50 over the next 5 billion years. But interestingly, accounting for Albert Einstein’s minor adjustments (according to his theory of relativity), reduces the chances to just 1%. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/07/of-gaps-fine-tuning-and-newtons-solar.html Milankovitch Cycle Design - Hugh Ross - August 2011 Excerpt: In all three cases, Waltham proved that the actual Earth/Moon/solar system manifests unusually low Milankovitch levels and frequencies compared to similar alternative systems. ,,, Waltham concluded, “It therefore appears that there has been anthropic selection for slow Milankovitch cycles.” That is, it appears Earth was purposely designed with slow, low-level Milankovitch cycles so as to allow humans to exist and thrive. http://www.reasons.org/milankovitch-cycle-design
The moon, which gives the earth a stable orbit, which is of course necessary for advanced life, also 'just so happens' to give us uniquely 'perfect' solar eclipses, which has allowed many deep scientific discoveries into how the universe operates:
Privileged Planet - Observability Correlation - Gonzalez and Richards - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5424431 The very conditions that make Earth hospitable to intelligent life also make it well suited to viewing and analyzing the universe as a whole. - Jay Richards
Etc.. Etc.. Quote, verse, & music:
"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being. … This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called “Lord God” [pantokratòr], or “Universal Ruler”… The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect." Sir Isaac Newton - Quoted from what many consider the greatest science masterpiece of all time, "Principia" Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom. Hillsong - Mighty to Save - With Subtitles/Lyrics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-08YZF87OBQ
bornagain77
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
06:13 PM
6
06
13
PM
PDT
For the life of me I cant understand why atheists try to stamp objective morality on the actions of Christians and others when their worldview has no objective meaning or objective right and wrong. Its like we are telling them that jumping off the ledge of a 4 story building will kill them but they keep jumping off anyways. ::shaking my head::wallstreeter43
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
04:31 PM
4
04
31
PM
PDT
Just beyond Mars, for example, is the asteroid belt. If the Earth were anywhere near that vicinity we would be bombarded constantly by meteorites, and no life (at least as we know it) could begin let alone survive.
Yes and don't forget that if one of them had not hit earth 65 million years ago, wiping out almost every living organism, we wouldn't be here today.lastyearon
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
04:13 PM
4
04
13
PM
PDT
They are probably part of the same drum circle at one of the Occupy gatherings. It can get rather boring holding "End Capitalism" signs while waiting to be fed. So a little venting here at UD could translate into less vandalism and fewer assaults, in at least one tent city, somewhere.material.infantacy
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PDT
Jello: "Here is the premise/hypothesis: An unknown designer of unknown capabilities, unknown limitations and unknown motives designed the butterfly’s odd lifestyle. As an exercise try and build an hypothesis explaining how metamorphosis was designed that is incompatible with the original premise." ==== Perfect, you've just described Darwin's and your's mysterious unknown animist god. ---- Jello: "when the putative designer is completely unknown there is no possible way to favour one possible explanation for how metamorphosis was designed above another." ==== Again, perfect. You've just described the mysterious animist god of blind chanced Dice Theory to a "T". Now do you see the problems most here have with your side's usage of fables, myths and storying without actually evidence to back up all those rediculous assumptions and assertions ??? Those earthquakes in Oklahoma must have really rattled your cage Professor!!!Eocene
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
01:42 PM
1
01
42
PM
PDT
Here is the premise/hypothesis: An unknown designer of unknown capabilities, unknown limitations and unknown motives designed the butterfly's odd lifestyle. As an exercise try and build an hypothesis explaining how metamorphosis was designed that is incompatible with the original premise.
As long as the value of X is unknown, it has an infinite number of possible values.
Exactly; and when the putative designer is completely unknown there is no possible way to favour one possible explanation for how metamorphosis was designed above another.Jello
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
01:32 PM
1
01
32
PM
PDT
Jello is a FossFur sock or a disciple. He is seeking hi-fives and belly-tickles from his cronies. That's his purpose here.MedsRex
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
01:20 PM
1
01
20
PM
PDT
Jello,
No, I’m saying that it’s impossible to reason from the unknown to the known.
Why would anyone try to reason from anything to the known? That makes no sense. The idea is to reason from the known to the unknown. (Not just ID, but all of science.) You seem to have it stuck that this particular unknown is also unknowable. Why? Even if that were true, how does an unknowable unknown refute the logic that led to it?
When your premise is as calculatedly mysterious as ID’s...
What is so mysterious? The guy on CSI says that the fire was caused by arson. Who started it? Big question mark. Is that calculatedly mysterious? Do we tell the CSI guy that he can't say the fire was arson unless he first identifies an arsonist? Next you'll argue (again) that this is different because we don't know what methods the designer might use, etc. So what? I thought unknowns were what science was all about. Now you seem to think that they are the enemy of science.
...there are an infinite number of compatible explanations available for metamorphosis
As long as the value of X is unknown, it has an infinite number of possible values. Again, you are reasoning that the unknown is unknowable. That's the not the spirit that boldly goes where no man has gone before.ScottAndrews2
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
01:12 PM
1
01
12
PM
PDT
Music and Verse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJto-FvnG8Q&feature=relatedJello
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
12:50 PM
12
12
50
PM
PDT
Twice in one post you reason that we can’t learn something because we don’t already know it. That’s a blanket statement that it’s impossible to know something, and you don’t say why it’s impossible. It’s just unknown. Unknown does not equal unknowable.
No, I'm saying that it's impossible to reason from the unknown to the known. When your premise is as calculatedly mysterious as ID's there are an infinite number of compatible explanations available for metamorphosis - with no criteria at all to choose between them.Jello
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
12:45 PM
12
12
45
PM
PDT
Well Jello, are you going to honestly engage the points I raised? i.e. Does truth even matter to you?bornagain77
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
12:37 PM
12
12
37
PM
PDT
Further notes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl65zn_tudIJello
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
12:31 PM
12
12
31
PM
PDT
The following interview is sadly comical as a evolutionary psychologist realizes that neo-Darwinism can offer no guarantee that our faculties of reasoning will correspond to the truth, not even for the truth he is giving in the interview, (which begs the question of how was he able to come to that particular truthful realization, in the first place, if neo-Darwinian evolution were actually true?);
Evolutionary guru: Don't believe everything you think - October 2011 Interviewer: You could be deceiving yourself about that.(?) Evolutionary Psychologist: Absolutely. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128335.300-evolutionary-guru-dont-believe-everything-you-think.html
Here a Darwinian Psychologist has a moment of honesty facing the 'hard problem' of consciousness;
Darwinian Psychologist David Barash Admits the Seeming Insolubility of Science's "Hardest Problem" Excerpt: 'But the hard problem of consciousness is so hard that I can't even imagine what kind of empirical findings would satisfactorily solve it. In fact, I don't even know what kind of discovery would get us to first base, not to mention a home run.' David Barash - Materialist/Atheist Darwinian Psychologist http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/11/post_33052491.html
Further notes:
“Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning...” CS Lewis – Mere Christianity "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" - Charles Darwin - Letter To William Graham - July 3, 1881 “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” J. B. S. Haldane ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.
I truly invite you, jello, to look past your petty prejudices against Christianity in particular, and against Theism in general, and honestly consider these points I've raised against atheism. Please, ask yourself, 'why should these points be so if atheism is actually true?' For if you can't honestly answer these points I've raised (and you can't), then this makes atheism/materialism untrue as a philosophy/worldview. And if you, jello, are living your life as if atheism were true (as in fact you are doing) then you are in fact 'living a lie'.,,, And even though you could list the faults of Christians all day long (as I could list faults of atheists all day long), jello, Is it worth 'living a lie' just because you find the behavior of some (many?) Christians/Theists objectionable and even hypocritical? Should you not seek out the truth above all else regardless, even in spite, of the behavior of other people?
DAVID SNEDDON - STOP LIVING THE LIE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIqxeSiNE-k Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
bornagain77
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
12:25 PM
12
12
25
PM
PDT
Jello, though it has been established, many times before, very convincingly, that Christianity has elevated the status, and rights, of women (as well as the rights of infants, children, and minorities), far above what they were in the past (and even far above some other non-Christian countries in the present), and indeed I could easily prove my case that this is the truth, instead, in response to your 'redneck preacher' video link, I want to focus instead on the fact that you, as an atheist, in linking the 'redneck' video, are in fact making a value/moral judgement about how you think the world 'ought' to be in regards to its 'moral/value' treatment of women. ,,, jello, it clearly seems to have escaped your understanding that it is impossible for the atheist to ground objective morality, which you clearly believe in, in the first place!!! Jello, please note here as William Lane Craig picks apart the very same line of reasoning you are using, against Richard Dawkins, for claiming objective moral superiority to Christians:
Richard Dawkins on the Moral Argument for God: by William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-OjSKr79aQ
Jello, to try to make as clear for you as possible, you simply have no way to ground objective moral beliefs within your atheistic/materialistic worldview:
The Knock-Down Argument Against Atheist Sam Harris – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvDyLs_cReE Stephen Meyer - Morality Presupposes Theism (1 of 4) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpdh1b0X_M
jello, if the fact that you have no basis for presupposing moral superiority was not bad enough for your atheistic worldview, what should really get you to seriously doubting all this blind faith you have seemingly put into atheism/materialism, is that you cannot even ground the practice of 'doing science' within your atheistic worldview in the first place: This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place.
Presuppositional Apologetics - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Random Chaos vs. Uniformity Of Nature - Presuppositional Apologetics - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/6853139 RC Sproul Interviews Stephen Meyer - (Epistemology) Presuppositional Apologetics (and Scientific Argument for ID from presently acting cause known to produce effect in question) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM5J2zTBIzI
Materialism simply dissolves into absurdity when pushed to extremes and certainly offers no guarantee to us for believing our perceptions and reasoning within science are trustworthy in the first place:
BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" (materialistic) models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ Should You Trust the Monkey Mind? - Joe Carter Excerpt: Evolutionary naturalism assumes that our noetic equipment developed as it did because it had some survival value or reproductive advantage. Unguided evolution does not select for belief except insofar as the belief improves the chances of survival. The truth of a belief is irrelevant, as long as it produces an evolutionary advantage. This equipment could have developed at least four different kinds of belief that are compatible with evolutionary naturalism, none of which necessarily produce true and trustworthy cognitive faculties. http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/09/should-you-trust-the-monkey-mind What is the Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism? ('inconsistent identity' of cause leads to failure of absolute truth claims for materialists) (Alvin Plantinga) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yNg4MJgTFw
bornagain77
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
12:25 PM
12
12
25
PM
PDT
Jello,
Biologists have been reverse engineering the natural world for over two centuries. ID can hardly take credit for that.
How do you reverse-engineer something that was not engineered?ScottAndrews2
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
12:15 PM
12
12
15
PM
PDT
Jello, Twice in one post you reason that we can't learn something because we don't already know it.
When the thing doing the designing is completely unknown, yes.
So if we can tell that a thing was designed but we don't know by what or by whom, that means that it's impossible to find out how because we don't know by whom. That's a blanket statement that it's impossible to know something, and you don't say why it's impossible. It's just unknown. Unknown does not equal unknowable.
It’s impossible because we have no clue as to the designer’s capabilities, motives or constraints.
Again, we can't know because we don't know. Which are you arguing? A) If a thing appears to be designed but we do not know by whom, we should pretend not to notice because that would lead us to something we don't know, and for some reason we'd just have to stop there. B) If a thing appears to be designed but we do not know by whom, it could not possibly have been designed. C) We should not attempt to determine whether a thing is designed without first determining who designed it. You seem to think that logic that arrives at a conclusion must be faulty if that conclusion raises unanswered questions. Or at least you think so in this case. Most folks only apply such tortured reasoning when it comes to ID.ScottAndrews2
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
12:12 PM
12
12
12
PM
PDT
We cannot hope to reason how a thing came to be because we have no basic premise to reason from. It’s a blank page.
That is just not trueUpright BiPed
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
12:08 PM
12
12
08
PM
PDT
"Biologists have been reverse engineering the natural world for over two centuries. ID can hardly take credit for that." Have they figured out how any of the critical immaterial rules in biology came about? Like, why codons have three nucleotides, or, why CTA maps to Leucuine, or, why AGT starts a protein? Have they reverse engineered the coordinated emergence of a set aminoacyl synthetase mapped to two sets of physical objects, neither of which it ever comes into contact with - yet must be correct for the emergence of aminoacyl synthetases? This is not a slam on science (far from it) its a slam on ideological materialism parading as science. When these phenomena are understood ... you can rest assured that ID will be there.Upright BiPed
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
12:04 PM
12
12
04
PM
PDT
GinoB And your reply is not being able to "see the forest for the trees" at it's finest; even given how limited one is able to see "the whole picture." You fail to see the symbiotic relationship I mentioned. The asteroid belt is both a protector and a danger in the same way that water can be destructive, but also necessary for survival. The sensible thing for a designer would be to create nothing at all, and then there would be no dangers. But my sensibilities are limited as are yours. You are clearly not thinking of all the issues here. Life itself is a miracle of combining all of the elements and conditions in interconnected relationships that go beyond the galaxy, I think even many materialists would agree that it's not a simple issue of a designer conjuring up some sort of perfect universe in an instant, such that there are no dangers - particularly since it is a given that if such a designer exists, he/she/it would be beyond time, so perfection in an instant would be irrelevant. You're also conflating what is optimal with what may be described as perfect. The life that exists appears to be optimal; as in everything that is necessary to sustain life is in place and what we don't know about it is far more than what we do know. To state that a designer would avoid all potential dangers in the process is also begging the question. You're being more religious than you're being scientific here. It also appears as a bait and switch in order to avoid the argument that it is unreasonable to ask why an infinitely intelligent designer would design in a certain way; even given that you don't believe in such a designer, you don't know all the intricacies of the ways in which things in nature are or could be designed. You also don't know if what we observe now is the end result of such an alleged design. Your assumptions go way beyond science into your own metaphysics, which appear to me as very shortsighted. In all of that a good book comes to mind - William Dembski's "The End of Christianity," if you want a good explanation from a Christian perspective on why dangers (evil) exist(s). It isn't a scientific question, but a metaphysical one. Pay close attention to the title - especially as you get to the end. http://www.amazon.com/The-End-of-Christianity-ebook/dp/B002SV36ZA/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1320954731&sr=1-1CannuckianYankee
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
11:58 AM
11
11
58
AM
PDT
Are you seriously saying, with a straight face, that determining that a thing was designed somehow prohibits finding out how?
When the thing doing the designing is completely unknown, yes.
When someone says that understanding the design is impossible, they really mean that it sounds very, very hard.
It's not impossible because it looks really hard. It's impossible because we have no clue as to the designer's capabilities, motives or constraints. We cannot hope to reason how a thing came to be because we have no basic premise to reason from. It's a blank page. And as such any design explanation is as good (read: bad) as another. When your premise is an unknown designer, of unknown abilities, of unknown limitations and unknown motivations then there is no hope of an explanation. Or, rather, there is no hope of selecting the best one out of the practically infinite number of possible explanations that follow such a nebulous premise.Jello
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
11:53 AM
11
11
53
AM
PDT
Jello,
On the other hand, barring special revelation how can we ever know the processes that went into designing the butterfly’s lifecycle? Once you opt for an explanation that by its very nature cannot be known scientifically then one ID explanation is as good as another, with no possible way to choose between them.
Are you seriously saying, with a straight face, that determining that a thing was designed somehow prohibits finding out how? The only thing that prohibits finding out how a thing was designed is deciding a priori to rule out design. Nothing can trump the decision not to know something. That's what a science-stopper really looks like. What astounds me is that you reason, not based on the accuracy of the determination, but on what happens after you make that determination. Even if determining design somehow did bring all further inquiries to a grinding halt, how would ignoring it and going down a dead-end road to nowhere fare any better? When someone says that understanding the design is impossible, they really mean that it sounds very, very hard. Maybe it is. So, like the drunk who can't find his keys, we should keep searching under the streetlight because it's easier?ScottAndrews2
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
11:19 AM
11
11
19
AM
PDT
The more we learn about this in our limited ability to know, the more we learn that it’s no patchwork job. Just beyond Mars, for example, is the asteroid belt. If the Earth were anywhere near that vicinity we would be bombarded constantly by meteorites, and no life (at least as we know it) could begin let alone survive. And yet that very asteroid belt protects the Earth from other dangers beyond.
This is Panglossianism at its finest! You offer the asteroid belt as an example of beneficent design, without which the Earth would be prone to all manner of meteoric peril. Ask yourself, why would the Designer in his wisdom create those dangers that would necessitate an asteroid belt in the first place? The sensible solution to the problem of massive, potentially devastating rocks careening around space would be to remove said devastating rocks from space; not to add even more.Jello
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PDT
GinoB, "So why did the Designer come up with so many different ways to get the end produce? Why go through all those stages at all? If the Big Guy Designer wanted a butterfly, why didn’t he just design a butterfly from the get-go like is done in so many other species? Can we please get some ID explanations her?" No explanation is necessary. Your statement (question) is a classic "God wouldn't have done it that way" assumption; which if you pay close attention to some of Dr. Cornelius Hunter's posts, is what started the whole Darwinist foray into evolutionary explanations for biological diversity and complexity. It's more of a religious assumption than any IDer ever made. It is also begging the question on the highest plane. The question shouldn't be "why would God do it that way?" but "are the processes and end results best explained by pure natural processes, or is there a clear purpose behind the processes leading to the results?" If you can answer that question logically with the evidence, the question of why God would do it that way becomes a moot point. I think what you're conflating is the idea that if a designer is behind this, he/she/it necessarily does things in the same way as human designers would do it; but if you look at the cosmos and the arguments for fine tuning, for example, you can see how the conditions for life are much more complex than anything we could think to design. Humans as designers do things in a patchwork sort of way, while what we observe in the cosmos is best described as fine tuning, such that every element plays a part in the design. The more we learn about this in our limited ability to know, the more we learn that it's no patchwork job. Just beyond Mars, for example, is the asteroid belt. If the Earth were anywhere near that vicinity we would be bombarded constantly by meteorites, and no life (at least as we know it) could begin let alone survive. And yet that very asteroid belt protects the Earth from other dangers beyond. And any closer to the sun, we would also not survive. If you're going to critique ID thinking, it's these sorts of complexities - the fine tuning of it all, and the placement in nature, the environment, the results that make butterflies - all these things you need to consider rather than "would a god do it that way, or if so why?" That is a question I think who's answer is far too complex, and part of the reason why ID theorists avoid the question. They don't ask why, because of all the symbiotic relationships that are necessary for life, and it's really beyond our ability to understand completely. The answers may lie in the far distances of the universe of which we have no access. The Earth is not a vacuum in space, but is interconnected to all the elements of a solar system, which supports life on the one planet. The solar system is not a vacuum in space, but is interconnected to all the elements of a galaxy that supports life in the one solar system (at least that we know of). If those two measures are any indication of how it all works, it would appear also that beyond the galaxy and clusters of galaxies are conditions, which must be in place for life to exist on this one planet (that we know of) that contains life, or on any other planet in the universe that might contain life. Now consider the butterfly and how it comes to be. Given all that we don't know about the universe and conditions that allow for life to exist on Earth, do you think it reasonable to ask such questions? Like all the symbiotic relationships that we observe as far as the conditions for life, there may be certain relationships with how a butterfly comes to be that are a crucial link in the interconnectedness of life; and we have yet to find them out. In my thinking an infinitely intelligent being could (and would) in fact create butterflies in that fashion just for the sheer and complex mystery of it all, and for other purposes that are beyond our understanding, but which we might learn eventually through science. And knowing that we humans would someday become designers, leaving it still a mystery to show that He is in fact who He is - above and beyond our understaning. He gives us just enough evidence to know that it ain't just nature. Science may fail to have the crucial answers if it continues to beg the question in that sort of way. ID's contribution, if anything is in avoiding those kinds of assumptions, which I believe get in the way of finding certain things out. Yes, in the end it is a science stopper, So please try to give us a cogent reason why a designer would not have done it that way, while at the same time avoid conflating how a human designer would have done it with how an infinitely knowing designer would have brought it all together in all the complex symbiotic relationships that apparently exist here and far beyond our galaxy, and which allow us to enjoy life on this planet. If you can't, then I don't think the question is at all helpful or reasonable.CannuckianYankee
November 10, 2011
November
11
Nov
10
10
2011
10:35 AM
10
10
35
AM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply