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Materialist Poofery

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From time to time we see materialists raising the “poof objection” against ID. The poof objection goes something like this: An ID theorist claims that a given organic system (the bacterial flagellum perhaps) is irreducibly complex or that it displays functional complex specified information. In a sneering and condescending tone the materialist dismisses the claim, saying something like “Your claim amounts to nothing more than ‘Poof! the designer did it.’”

I have always thought the poof objection coming from a materialist is particularly ironic, because materialists have “poofery” built into their science at a very basic level. Of course, they don’t use the term “poof.” They use a functional synonym of poof – the word “emergent.”

What do I mean? Consider the hard problem of consciousness. We all believe we are conscious, and consciousness must be accounted for. For the ID theorists, this is easy. The mind is a real phenomenon that cannot be reduced to the properties of the brain. Obviously, this is not so easy for the materialist who, by definition, must come up with a theory that reduces the mind to an epiphenomenon of the electro-chemical processes of the brain. What do they do? They say the mind is an “emergent property” of the brain. Huh? Wazzat? That means that the brain system has properties that cannot be reduced to its individual components. The system is said to “supervene” (I’m not making this up) on its components causing the whole to be greater than the sum of the parts.

And what evidence do we have that “emergence” is a real phenomenon? Absolutely none. Emergence is materialist poofery. Take the mind-brain problem again. The materialist knows that his claim that the mind does not exist is patently absurd. Yet, given his premises it simply cannot exist. So what is a materialist to do? Easy. Poof – the mind is an emergent property of the brain system that otherwise cannot be accounted for on materialist grounds.

Comments
Ignoring the unnecessary and inaccurate comments about the status of Genie Scott, I wonder what Russell was referring to when he wrote, "Ever since the 60s, philosophy of science has debunked these kind of arguments." It appears he was talking about this consciousness argument, and not about evolutionary biology, so I don’t think this relates to Allen’s comment about the founders of the modern evolutionary synthesis. And we still haven't cleared up what Stephen understands "emergent to mean." First, emergent doesn't mean uncaused or out of nowhere, as Stephen first stated. And, as Allen pointed out, emergence isn't a cause in and of itself, but rather a description of the result of a process by which the complex interplay of a lot of causes produces properties that were not there in the individual constituent parts. Stephen also said the word emergence was a science stopper, but I don't see that. Hurricanes are an emergent phenomena, but that is not a stopper - in fact, it's a challenge to learn even more about its properties arise. What I find ironic here, and what perhaps explains some of the resistance to this term, is that emergence is about complex systems and their ability to produce novelty, such as the eye of hurricane, and this subject of novelty in complex systems is one of the ostensible topics of ID. Therefore, thinking about the topic of emergence as it applies to physics and chemistry seems like it would be worthwhile, separate from the difficult subject of consciousness.hazel
April 26, 2009
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----Allen: "Actually, this is a false statement. With the notable exception of Ernst Mayr, virtually all of the founders of the “modern evolutionary synthesis” were either completely silent on the issue of emergent properties, or asserted that such properties did not exist." Plenty of Darwinists have pushed emergence right here on this thread. Indeed, that is what is happening right now. It is indeed their default position. Anyway, do Darwinists have a pope, if so let me know who he or she is and I will accept his or her judgment about which variety of the Darwinist fanstasy I am to accept as the official version. I guess Eugenie Scott would be the closest to a Popess that you folks have, so let's listen in on her discussion with Robert Russell, a confused Christian Darwinist. ----Russell: "Ever since the 60s, philosophy of science has debunked these kind of arguments. This is a reductionist argument. Right? It's saying you're going to reduce mental capacities, neurophysical capacities, to physics. And there are massive arguments, which we all I think would agree with actually. I think we all agree with the anti-reductionists arguments that are out there that would say of course you have genuine epistemic claims at the level of psychology and rationality, which can't be reduced to the claims of physics. It doesn't… ----Eugenie Scott: "They're emergent." ----"Robert Russell: Right, they're emergent--these are emergent properties and processes which emerge with more complexity." That is your popess speaking, so be reverent.StephenB
April 26, 2009
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An observation: Barry, at 131, makes a comment I support: “be careful to keep your comments on the non-personal level.” Joseph, at 134, says to Alan Fox,
Yes Alan Fox is a prime example of someone who is not interested in a discussion and has absolutely nothing to offer. He is basically a waste of bandwidth.
hazel
April 26, 2009
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Mr Arrington, It is a pleasure to again join the discourse on this forum. I apologize, sir, if you felt that any of my comments were directed at a person, whether yourself or another, rather than the positions such a person held. I appreciate the offer of close scrutiny, and I only hope that the quality of my contributions will rise to deserve your attention, and the attention of others. Thank you, again. ps - I will be watching you closely, also! ;)Nakashima
April 26, 2009
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Alan your position takes a great deal of faith because it doesn’t have any evidence to support it.
What is my position, Joe? I'd like to know, because I'm not sure myself.Alan Fox
April 26, 2009
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Alan your position takes a great deal of faith because it doesn't have any evidence to support it. If you had said evidence then you would post it.Joseph
April 26, 2009
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Yes Alan Fox is a prime example of someone who is not interested in a discussion and has absolutely nothing to offer. He is basically a waste of bandwidth.Joseph
April 26, 2009
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All materialists are people of faith greater than any Christian.
How do you know this? I suspect I may fit into the materialist category, depending on your definition, but I don't feel imbued with great faith.Alan Fox
April 26, 2009
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...be careful to keep your comments on the non-personal level. You will be watched closely.
Will your vigilance extend to certain other posters* whose zeal sometimes overcomes their objectivity. Hi, Joseph!*Alan Fox
April 26, 2009
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I will bow to vox populi from both sides in regard to Nakashima. Nakashima you are un-banned, but be careful to keep your comments on the non-personal level. You will be watched closely.Barry Arrington
April 26, 2009
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ote to the materialists- If you want ID to go away all YOU have to do is to support YOUR position. That means demonstrating that living organisms are reducible to matter, energy, chance and necessity. Which means you should stop blaming ID for YOUR failures.Joseph
April 26, 2009
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B L Harville:
IDists will strenuously deny this but they oppose evolution because it conflicts with their religious beliefs.
But ID is NOT anti-evolution. And ID does NOT require a belief in "God". IOW you don't know what you are talking aboutJoseph
April 26, 2009
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Onlookers (heh), The argument that KF keeps repeating is just a rehash of the "argument from reason" of Lewis and (later) Reppert. The question that Lewis and Reppert pose is this: If our thoughts are solely the product of our brains, how can they be trusted? After all, brains are physical systems composed ultimately of fundamental particles. Thus, the operation of the brain is just the end result of a large number of fundamental particles mindlessly obeying the laws of physics. How can this mindless process give rise to rational thought? If the underlying physics is mindless, then we have no way of guaranteeing that the resulting thoughts are rational, according to Lewis and Reppert. Thus, naturalism undercuts itself. The first error that KF makes is a common one on this blog: he fails to ask whether his argument undercuts his own position. Sure enough, it turns out that it does. If thinking is carried out not by the brain, but by some unknown immaterial entity, then KF has no way of guaranteeing that this immaterial entity operates reliably, and thus no way of guaranteeing that his thoughts are reliable. Oops. (An aside to KF: the flip side of "hyperskeptical" is "hyposkeptical". Ponder that the next time you're looking in a mirror.) Even worse for KF (and Lewis, and Reppert) is that they have no way of addressing this problem short of developing a "science of the soul" that explains how immaterial minds work and proves that they are reliable by construction. Good luck with that. Now think about the materialist's position. We already know that it's possible to construct computers that do arithmetic and logic reliably. We know that it's possible to write reliable software to run on these computers, including sophisticated reasoning programs like the theorem provers I mentioned earlier in the thread. Thus, we know that reason can be mechanized in a properly constructed system. So the materialist is already far ahead of the nonmaterialist, who doesn't know if it's possible for any immaterial mind to operate correctly, much less the one that humans happen to get. At this point, we've shown that reliable, physically-based reasoning is possible. The next question is this: Do we have reason to believe that the brain itself is reliable in this way? The answer is yes. The materialist holds that the brain has been shaped by natural selection. Brains that can't reason reliably get their owners killed. Individuals with better brains tend to survive and reproduce better than those with addled brains, so genetic changes that produce flawed thinking get weeded out of the population. The nonmaterialist has no corresponding selective process to appeal to. He just has to hope (pray?) that the mind he gets is reliable at the start. Yet again, the materialist has the advantage. Finally, note that natural selection doesn't produce perfect brains capable of, for example, effortlessly visualizing geometry in 18 dimensions. Nor would we expect it to, as this trait would have had no value in the environment in which humans evolved. There would have been no selective pressure for it. Looking at the spectrum of human abilities (and flaws), we find that the mind has the kind of flaws you would expect it to have if it were the product of a long and kludgy evolutionary process. There is no reason for the nonmaterialist to expect the human mind to have these specific flaws if it is based on an immaterial entity. Once again, the materialist has the advantage. Conclusion: The argument that KF keeps flogging turns out, ironically, to be a disaster for his own nonmaterialist position, yet it strengthens the case of the materialist!mauka
April 26, 2009
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mauka, materialism is irrational and is based on inherent logical inconsistencies. All materialists are people of faith greater than any Christian.tribune7
April 26, 2009
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Onlookers: Per no 3 above, that which is inescapably self-refuting can explain nothing. So, unless evolutionary materialists can credibly account for the credibility of mind on their premises [matter-energy + space-time plus chance and mechanical necessity --> everything], they have no case. GEM of TKI PS: As a reminder, the excerpt at no 3 again. (Do remember that reason is an aspect of the self-conscious mind): >>_________________ To understand that chance + necessity are practically speaking incapable of giving rise to a mind capable of credible knowledge and reasoning, is a MAJOR advance. And, that is precisely what the resort to “emergence” is about. (Which in turn leads to the exposure of the self-referentially inconsistent selective hyperskepticism in the objection that design thought is appealing to “poof.” Au contraire: we routinely experience and observe the facts of design and of logical thought and of credible knowledge. manifested in artifacts. So, to infer to the presence of such in light of reliable signs of mind at work — signs of design — is reasonable. Later on, we may yet figure out “how ’twere dun,” but “THAT ’twere dun” has to be acknowledged first. And evo mat agendas and tactics stand in the way of that — up to and including censorship harassment, career busting and expulsion. Not to mention just plain old slander and false accusations or assertions. one of which the WAC 4 above responds to.] Let me illustrate my point by citing a remark I have used in training contexts over the years: ____________________ . . . [evolutionary] materialism [a worldview that often likes to wear the mantle of "science"] . . . argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature. Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance. But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, what we subjectively experience as “thoughts” and “conclusions” can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. (These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance ["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning ["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism].) Therefore, if materialism is true, the “thoughts” we have and the “conclusions” we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. Of course, the conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them. And, if our materialist friends then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited! Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? And, should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? In the end, materialism is based on self-defeating logic . . . . ___________________ Let’s see if we can go beyond the evo mat talking points spin games level on this one. >>__________________kairosfocus
April 26, 2009
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In comment #20, I compared the ability of materialism and nonmaterialism to explain four key aspects of consciousness and reason. The final tally was that materialism had the advantage on 3 of the 4 issues, while nonmaterialism had the advantage on none. On one issue they were tied. Here are two more issues to add to the mix: 5a. For the materialist, it is trivial to explain how the physical world can affect the mind through our senses. After all, the world, our sense organs, our nerves and our minds are all physical, so the interactions between them are just normal physical interactions. 5b. The nonmaterialist has no explanation for how the physical world can bridge the gap in order to affect the immaterial mind. Advantage: materialist 6a. Moving in the other direction, it is trivial for the materialist to explain how the mind can affect the body and through it, the world. Mind, nerve, muscle and world are all physical, so their interactions are all physical. 6b. The nonmaterialist, however, has no explanation for how the immaterial mind can bridge the gap to influence the physical body, move the muscles and affect the physical world. Advantage: materialist New score: Materialism 5 of 6, Nonmaterialism 0 of 6 It's getting pretty lopsided. Come on, nonmaterialists! Aren't there any issues for which your worldview has an advantage? Let's hear them!mauka
April 26, 2009
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MacNeill is a flaming hypocrite. He is upset because someone was banished while that is exactly what he has done himself on his own turf. He has even suggested that I should be banished here at Uncommon Descent. With scordova's invaluable assistance, he almost pulled it off! It is hard to believe isn't it? Not at all. It is a matter of record.JohnADavison
April 26, 2009
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PS: Mr MacNeill, I must note that the situations are not precisely analogous. The sort of nastiness that was unloaded at Mrs O'Leary -- a respectable grandmother who was subjected to slander of a sort that would make the most depraved strumpet blush -- at Anti Evo recently more than justifies a severe moderation policy here. And, there is a serious issue on harassment, disruptive blog vandalism, etc. all the way up to unjustified career busting (which is denied in the teeth of manifest facts or even "justified" by all too many on your side of the debate -- and this has not been a dialogue across time, sadly). I find the current policy a better balance than the previous [which may well have been well warranted for its time . . . I am here reminded of how Sir Winston Churchill's policy in 1940 can be derided in retrospect, but to have to act in the face of the situation was a very different matter], but also must note that no policy devised by humans will be perfect on formulation or execution.kairosfocus
April 26, 2009
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9 --> Johnson's corrective [1995] was thus all too apt: “[t]he plausibility of materialistic determinism requires that an implicit exception be made for the theorist.” And, of course, thereby hangs the self-referential absurdity, as his earlier comment on how Sir francis should preface his books brings out with telling force:
"I, Francis Crick, my opinions and my science, and even the thoughts expressed in this book, consist of nothing more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules."
10 --> In short, first, the phenomena of mind -- which we experience day by day, so it is an empirical fact to be accounted for in our worldviews and scientific models -- are radically diverse from the patterns and processes that we can routinely trace to the interactions of matter and energy in interesting configurations in space and time. 11 --> So, unless we can show how the emergence happens, we are using word magic if we simply say "emergence" and do not provide the means of that emergence. 12 --> but in fact, the very term, "the hard problem of consciousness," and the issues summarised in 3 above show the fact that no such explanatory construct is on the table, or in reasonable prospect. On the contrary, the evolutionary materialist paradigm here plainly runs into self reference and incoherence, undermining the credibility of the very minds needed to think materialist thoughts. 13 --> Materialists, of course are humans and think, and sometimes accurately. But, the material point is that they cannot ground the credibility of mind relative to their premises on the nature of underlying reality, but end up in self contradictions, repeatedly and predictably; indeed evidently inescapably. 14 --> So, evolutionary materialism is self-referentially incoherent as a system of thought. And science build on self contradiction is incapable of being any more trustworthy than that self-refuting foundation. So, the evo mat paradigm is dead. 15 --> And, to object on "poof" when we advert to the experience of mind and design, then use it to infer to the signs of such at work, and then devise an explanatory filter that detects cases of design as distinct form chance and/or necessity spontaneously at work, is selectively hyperskeptical, as well. 16 --> For, by sharpest contrast, the concept that MIND is prior to matter, and is its origin, coheres with the observed contingency and evidently purposeful organisation of the physics of the cosmos and its apparent history from origin to date. it also fits well with the information systems that lie in the heart of life forms based on cells. So, the mind hypothesis entails -- and is consistent with -- the empirical data (including our self-experience as minded creatures). 17 --> And, further directly relevant to us, that MIND can create minds and fit them to their world so they can often perceive accurately, think logically and know credibly, is not at all incoherent or incongruous to the reality we experience. So, the idea of design by MIND is reasonable and consistent with what we observe, having great explanatory power. 18 --> Now, we do not know precisely how our minds were/are composed and how such work and how such interfaces with the brain as i/o processor. that is, we do not yet know HOW of the mind/brain interface or more broadly of the mind matter interfacfe, but we routinely experience it every time we decide to press a sequence of keys on a keyboard to type in a blog comment, etc. So, it is an empirically grounded reality: mind interacts with matter -- we do decide and acrt in light of logic and perceptions, oftentimes effectively and even correctly. 19 --> Notice, this is antecedent, empirically to the metaphysics of the composition of mind. (We are NOT here making any a priori assumptions on the nature of mind, just pointing out that mind is whatever has the properties that we observe. Composition is empirically posterior to the facts of observation and their circumstances, which may have import on the nature of mind, under certain circumstances.) 20 --> We may then . . . notice the sequence . . . climb the empirical ladder to identifying reliable signs of known mind at work, then onward to identifying mind from its empirical traces; thence the origin of life and the cosmos friendly to such life. 21 --> these things brim over with the reliable sings of mind, and we have no reason to infer that we exhaust the possible minds in existence. So, from signs we see the source of the signs; per best explanation. 22 --> At that point we see mind antecedent to and causally prior to matter as observed. So, mind is not necessarily material. (Which does not rule out that we may design an architecture, algorithms, code and data structures, with sensors, knowledge bases etc that can fulfill the logic of mind that is insofar as the functional elements are concerned, would be material. though, the INFORMATION and KNOWLEDGE -- not to mention WISDOM -- involved is obviously not to be equated to matter or configurations thereof.) 23 --> Fine: that is a task for reverse engineering of how observed minds function, and it is a task that suggests that we may be able to sufficiently replicate the architecture and systems to create true artificial intelligences. 24 --> Whether such would be conscious -- not to mention en-conscienced (NB: we should build in safeguards in the form of revisions to Asimov's 3 laws that close the dangerous loopholes that he exploited in his sci fi literature) -- is another story, but useful entities capable of working with us as we move out on the cosmos as a whole do not have to be conscious, just functional. 25 --> If we do discover a way to make them conscious, that would be wonderful -- and a triumph of intelligent research, creative thinking and . . . design! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 26, 2009
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Moderators: First, I concur with Trib 7. (I have found Nakashima a generally polite and helpful contributor, who seems to be interested in actual discussion not mere drumbeat repetition of tired out evo mat talking points. [Perhaps -- and I seem to have missed the offending comment he made (which must have been well over the top to get such a sharp response) -- he slipped up for a moment?]) GEM of TKI ______________ Now, a few footnotes: 1 --> Nakashima-San, if we ever do build R Daneel, that will be by literally generations of intelligent design. (No need to play Golem games!) 2 --> Emergence and systems: the point of legitimate scientific emergence is that we may trace the outcome to the system elements, their properties, the system architecture and the interactions with the environment across the system boundary. That is, we are loking at dynamics . . . 3 --> which may of course include stochastic elements. E.g. the Barkhausen analysis of how an electronic oscillator works includes the transient effects of noise on turn-on; leading to selection and reinforcement of the picked frequency for amplification and domination of behaviour. Then, limiting effects occur as the gain elements begin to go nonlinear. So we see both the emergence of the sine wave oscillations, their frequency, and the necessary presence of some distortion. 4 --> All of this traces to the system architecture of a forward and feedback path with positive feedback filtered for a specific frequency, noise [thence Fourier analysis], and the device physics of the active and passive components. So, we come to the [deceptively!] simple relationship: B*AOL = 1. (Huge swathes of physics, modelling and sophisticated mathematics lurk under that seemingly simple result.) 5 --> I cite this to contrast by pertinent example with the sort of "emergence" being postulated for mind, and to show how the claimed analogies to the emergence of hurricanes and the like [order not organisation!] are equally fallacious. 6 --> Mind works by organised thinking, reasoning, imagining, recalling, conceptualising, understanding and deciding processes, and the outcomes of -- just to cite one instance -- one of its key operations, logical reasoning, are precisely only credible if they are not the mere physical-chemical dynamic outcome of neurons at play under forces of chemistry, electricity and noise. 7 --> for, as Crick's blunder in his The Astonishing hypothesis shows: nothing buttery that reduces mind to the electro-chemistry of the CNS ends in self referential absurdity. Similarly, the psycho-social determinisms of various theorists end up int eh same absurdities. For, not even materialist thoughts become valid if they are determined by chance + necessity only instead of logic relative to the material facts. 8 --> Let us remind ourselves, therefore, of Crick's now notorious 1994 blunder (which is of course echoed in the original post):
You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules . . .
[ . . . ]kairosfocus
April 26, 2009
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Good for you, T7. Thank you for stepping forward.mauka
April 25, 2009
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My vote is to bring back Nakashima.tribune7
April 25, 2009
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In #117 mauka wrote:
"I would suggest that when a banning occurs, the reason should be stated explicitly and a link to the offending comment provided."
Hear! Hear! May I second that motion? It would really help to know what exactly it was that resulted in Nakashima-san's banishment, so that the rest of us might avoid committing such a sin (if possible, given our irretrievably fallen natures). If it helps, Hannah Maxson (the founder of the Cornell IDEA Club and my partner and co-presenter in our notorious evolution-design seminar at Cornell) and I worked out a fairly reasonable moderation policy for our course website. I have modified it slightly, mostly for increased coherence, and have it prominently posted at my own blog: http://evolutionlist.blogspot.com/2009/01/ground-rules-and-moderation-policy.html If you read it, you will note that I moderate every post that comes into THE EVOLUTION LIST. This was in response to what I can only call "hate bombing" by a few individuals who found it exciting to post multiple comments filled with ad hominem attacks, character assassination, and outright lies. It slows things down to have to moderate every single comment, but I found it necessary. Perhaps it will eventually be possible to open things back up to unmoderated comments. I hope so. By the way, I don't necessarily have a problem with people posting lies in their comments. Often it is pretty obvious to almost anyone when a lie gets posted, and in general the most effective way to deal with such distortions is to show (with citations to evidence) how the comment is a deliberate distortion. However, I find that the "broken window" phenomenon that results from constant personal attacks tends to coarsen debate and eventually lead to intellectual exhaustion for all concerned. For this reason, there are certain people who post comments here to whom I will never, under any conditions, respond, for the reasons cited above. I have observed recently that others here, on both sides of the EB / ID divide, have generally taken the same approach, and that often this has resulted in the offender eventually leaving in a huff. Good. Self-exile, in my humble opinion, is far preferable to banishment, for both the person leaving (which has occasionally been me, of course, from certain other websites) and for the group who, by their principled and consistent shunning of any and all responses to the offender's diatribes, have resulted in that person's exit from the stage.Allen_MacNeill
April 25, 2009
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I hope this is not a step back toward the "old" UD moderation/banning policy. I second Allen's suggestion about making the criteria for banning more explicit than they currently are. Also, I would suggest that when a banning occurs, the reason should be stated explicitly and a link to the offending comment provided. Comments of the sort "so-and-so is no longer with us" are singularly unhelpful and uninformative.mauka
April 25, 2009
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Really? That seems a little harsh.
Nor does does this banning conform to the moderation policy Barry enunciated a month or so ago. N's comments weren't profane, defamatory, vicious personal attacks, or really personal at all. As with Reciprocting_Bill earlier, what's the point of stating a policy if you aren't going to apply it?Diffaxial
April 25, 2009
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Re #110:
"Nakashima is no longer with us."
I find this unfortunate, as to me Nakashima-san always seemed very polite and informative in his/her comments, plus being fairly conscientious at sticking to the topic of threads. However, I haven't read all of the the threads s/he has participated in, so my opinion is merely that: an opinion. Perhaps it would help if the criteria for banning were made more explicit? I enjoy the rough-and-tumble that goes on here (obviously I must, or I wouldn't participate so often), but I do worry that I might inadvertently write something that might result in my banishment. And, for the record, I would like to thank (almost) all of the participants here for their comments, and especially those who have disagreed with me and provided detailed explanations of how and why they have so disagreed. I have always admired C. S. Lewis for his erudition, his extraordinary breadth of knowledge, and his ability to "fight the good fight" in heated academic debates. As such, I have tried to emulate both his tactics and his intellect, while disagreeing with some of his positions. Had I the opportunity to debate some of these questions with him, I am quite certain that I would learn a great deal from the encounter, and probably change my mind about several of my less-well-thought-out positions. To the extent that our "arguments" here have achieved the same level of intellectual breadth and commitment, I thank you all (well, most of you anyway). And so, back to it – en guarde, mes amis!Allen_MacNeill
April 25, 2009
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I too am puzzled. There are some posters here who are routinely rude, some to the extreme, and yet Nakashima is banned for one comment. I know the comment was aimed at Barry himself, but I think a moderator should try to be even-handed and not give himself special consideration. My 2 cents.hazel
April 25, 2009
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My comment was (I hope obviously) to the banning of Nakashima and not the thoughtful comment of Allen MacNeill.David Kellogg
April 25, 2009
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Really? That seems a little harsh.David Kellogg
April 25, 2009
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Here are two links to articles dealing with the philosophical and scientific aspects of "emergence" and "emergent properties": http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/properties-emergent/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_property As a professionally trained scientist who has dealt with the question of emergence for many years, I recommend both of them. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article is more technical, and is more restricted to the question of consciousness, whereas the Wikipedia article covers virtually all of the philosophical and scientific aspects of emergence. Even a cursory perusal of either article would clearly indicate that "the snapping, popping sound that happens when H2SO4 is mixed with water" or "the fizzing that happens when Alka Seltzer is dropped in water" are clearly not examples of emergence. If they were, one could just as easily assert that the "clunk" one hears when one has dropped a rock is an "emergent property" of dropped rocks.Allen_MacNeill
April 25, 2009
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