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Materialist OOA Research is Obviously Silly. What Does That Say About Materialist OOL Research?

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Recently one of our materialist friends made a comment along the lines of “we’ve known life can come from non-life since the concept of ‘vitalism’ was debunked by the synthesis of urea from inorganic elements.”  Our friend is wrong.  Let me explain why. 

It is true that prior to the nineteenth century many chemists believed organic compounds were too complex to be synthesized and organic matter was somehow endowed with a mysterious “vital force.”  This is the essence of vitalism.   

It is also true that vitalism was largely debunked in 1828 when Friedrich Wohler produced urea, an organic constituent of urine, from inorganic ammonium cyanate.   

Moreover, it is true that since the famous Miller-Urey experiments in the 1950s, scientists have known that simple building blocks of living things such as amino acids can be synthesized from inorganic precursors under certain carefully controlled conditions.   

If all these things are true, why is our friend wrong?  The answer lies in the fact that “organic compound” is far from a synonym for “living thing.”  Don’t believe me?  Go to the nearest funeral home and examine a corpse.  That corpse is a bag of extremely complex organic compounds that are perfect building blocks for a living thing, but it is not a living thing.   

Simple amino acids and other organic compounds are a long way from living things.  The more we learn about life the more the materialist case slides into implausibility, because organic chemical compounds are not the essence of life.  Too be sure, the presence of organic compounds is a necessary condition of life, but it is far from a sufficient condition as materialist OOL (origin of life) researchers thought in the salad days of OOL studies in 50s and 60s.  No, the essence of life is the precise arrangement of matter into maddeningly complex systems working together toward a specific overall purpose (i.e., living) according to a digitally encoded DNA blueprint (i.e., information).   

The problem for OOL researchers is analogous to building an airplane from scratch using nothing but the forces of nature and sheer random chance (call it OOA “origin of airplane” research).  Say lightning struck a patch of beach sand and produced glass.  Materialists got excited when Wohler demonstrated that one constituent of urine could be produced from simpler inorganic compounds.  Our OOA researchers might get excited that an element of the airplane (the glass for the windshield) was produced by the combination of sheer random chance and the forces of nature. 

Now suppose a researcher performs an experiment in which he mixes anhydrous aluminium chloride with potassium (which Wohler actually did in 1827) and out pops aluminum.  Our OOA researchers should be beside themselves with joy.  The basic building block of almost all airframes can be created by just mixing a few chemicals together under the right conditions, surely a process well within the reach of blind chance and physical law.   

By now you are rolling your eyes.  Only an idiot would believe that the essence of an airplane can be reduced to glass for the windshield and metal for the airframe.  The essence of an airplane is the precise arrangement of parts into extremely complex systems working toward a specific purpose (i.e., flying) according to a plan (i.e., information).   

You might say that the analogy between OOL research and OOA research fails because “living” and “flying” are two different things.  I would grant you that the analogy fails, but not in the way you think.  The analogy fails because living things are actually far more complex than airplanes, and it follows that building a living thing through the combination of sheer blind chance and mechanical law is much less likely than building an airplane through the same process. 

Even a child can see the futility of trying to build an airplane using only natural forces.  Why is it then that many very highly educated people can’t see the futility of building something far more complex than an airplane using the same process?  Good question.  Let me suggest that someone who cannot see the obvious must be wearing blinders of some sort, in this case the blinders of materialist metaphysics.   

I will leave you with a quote from Paul Davies that the UD News Desk brought to my attention:

Most research into life’s murky origin has been carried out by chemists. They’ve tried a variety of approaches in their attempts to recreate the first steps on the road to life, but little progress has been made. Perhaps that is no surprise, given life’s stupendous complexity. Even the simplest bacterium is incomparably more complicated than any chemical brew ever studied.

 

But a more fundamental obstacle stands in the way of attempts to cook up life in the chemistry lab. The language of chemistry simply does not mesh with that of biology. Chemistry is about substances and how they react, whereas biology appeals to concepts such as information and organisation. Informational narratives permeate biology. DNA is described as a genetic “database”, containing “instructions” on how to build an organism. The genetic “code” has to be “transcribed” and “translated” before it can act. And so on. If we cast the problem of life’s origin in computer jargon, attempts at chemical synthesis focus exclusively on the hardware – the chemical substrate of life – but ignore the software – the informational aspect. To explain how life began we need to understand how its unique management of information came about.

Comments
Here is the first part of a new documentary screened on BBC 2 last night 'Wonders of life' It never ceases to amaze mow the language ever so subtly changes from speculation to fact (around 27min mark). http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01qh3bb/Wonders_of_Life_What_Is_Life/PeterJ
January 28, 2013
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I have in front of me the following text: Protocells: Bridging Nonliving and Living Matter 650+ pages. Guess what the bridge is. Give up? There is none. I am now starting on my magnum opus. Broken Cells: The Bridge Between Living and Nonliving Matter What do you think? I am also offering the Origin of Death prize. I truly believe that if we can solve what it is that distinguishes a living body from a dead body we will solve the problem of the origin of life.Mung
January 20, 2013
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Well my cited response to your #44 is not entirely true, Mung. It's the time constraint. Not enough hours in the day, so prioritize topics of habitual interest. But thanks for the effort.Axel
January 20, 2013
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Thanks for #44, Mung, but not 'into' that sort of stuff. It's your wit that slays me. You were really 'buzzing' yesterday. Maybe today, too, but I'll have missed a lot of posts.Axel
January 20, 2013
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It sounds as if, with their naturalist explanations, in trying to explain Intelligent Design away, they are always in a kind of Catch 22 situation. MacBeth's witches seemed to think so, Mung. As products of bumbling, stumbling, haphazard chance, what possible could have adapted materialists to recognise intelligent design, all around them, staring them in the face? That bumbling, stumbling, haphazard chance has done its work admirably. The fact that they consider that their poor, wretched, soulless, corporeal automata should be adapted to seek truths not directly focusing on survival is a nonsense of their own devising. I don't know whether Catch 22 or 'painting themselves in a corner' is the more apt description.Axel
January 20, 2013
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Using intelligent guidance, scientists are busy trying to demonstrate how the basic constituents found in living things could have arisen without intelligent guidance. How bizarre is that? If you get the environment right, shouldn't the rest just follow auto-magically?Mung
January 20, 2013
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Building A Better GPSMung
January 19, 2013
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Re the empirical study-findings, which have given rise to such a long litany of exclamations of wonderment, verging on incredulity by evolutionist scientists, maybe they should be logged on here under the Gump File, as when they are found.Axel
January 19, 2013
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No matter how hard I try, I can never match Mung's GPS coordinates of the mind/brain spatial relationship...Axel
January 19, 2013
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I have a box of Terry's All Gold evolutionary chocolates; therefore, I am in for a truly wonderful roller-coaster of amazing, absolutely COUNTER-INTUITIVE(!) discoveries.Axel
January 19, 2013
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I once made a paper aeroplane, but I'm not sure how strong a proof it is of intelligent design.Axel
January 19, 2013
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I wonder which evolutionist will be the next Forrest Gump clone? 'Wow. Evolution never ceases to surprise us with new, unforeseen departures from what we'd anticipated.' (Mother Nature doesn't seem to read their script, and will just keep ad libbing...) PS: Hi StephenB. I didn't acknowledge your crack about Forrest, as I had made the same one a few weeks before, and couldn't think how to respond. The gracious thing would have been for me to have just acknowledged it with a laugh.Axel
January 19, 2013
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Or, on the anthropic principle, "I am, therefore I think."Jon Garvey
January 19, 2013
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Mung, you're hilarious. Descartes: I think, therefore I am. Materialist: I imagine, therefore it happened. PS to Decartes: Thoughts are an illusion.englishmaninistanbul
January 19, 2013
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Note: I hadn't seen 27-34 before posting 35.englishmaninistanbul
January 19, 2013
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Thank you everybody! Eric, thank you for that layman-friendly debunking of the "proteins fold themselves" fallacy. IMHO I think this is a fact that would do well to be emphasised more, since I suspect this is poorly understood even among those members of the general public who try to follow the subject. (Has anyone coined a maxim along the lines of "insufficient information does more damage than no information at all", or can I claim it as my own? :) ) I think it would lend even more weight to the 'OOA analogy' to point out, for instance, that in the same way as metal has to be shaped into aeroplane parts, amino acids have to be forced to fold in a way that they ordinarily wouldn't to work.englishmaninistanbul
January 19, 2013
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Englishman wrote:
However, in my mind’s eye I see atoms as being like little balls or beads, and molecules as combinations of those beads just sticking together by virtue of their own nature, like magnets. Ditto for amino acids–so long as you line them all up in the right order they just click together and start folding and there you have your protein. It makes the whole “organic soup” idea tentatively plausible, because it sounds like you’re just shaking up a box of magnetised beads of the kind I just described.
Unfortunately for the materialist, molecules disintegrate as easily as they form. The only way Miller got amino acids to form was to isolate them from the mixture. If he hadn't done that, they would have reacted with other things and disintegrated. So his results were artificial and would not happen in nature. And then you have the problem of left handedness vs right handedness like someone else pointed out. Chirality is a show stopper for materialism. I wouldn't want to be an OoL researcher. That must be one of the most frustrating areas of research to be involved in. Through the research, I'm sure there are other things we can learn about chemistry, molecules, etc., but I highly doubt they will ever be able to solve the problem of the origin of life. Materialists have faith and hope that someday it will be solved, but at this point, it is just faith and hope. There is no good reason to think it will be especially in light of what we do know about life.tjguy
January 19, 2013
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Well Barry, all that you have shown is that we need to set out sights much lower. OOP (origin of paper) research is a promising new field that could shed important new light on the origins of paper airplanes.Mung
January 18, 2013
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Well Barry, all that you have shown is that we need to set out sights much lower. OOPA (origin of paper airplane) research is a promising new field that could shed important new light on the origins of gliders.Mung
January 18, 2013
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Well Barry, all that you have shown is that we need to set out sights much lower. OOG (origin of gliders) research is a promising new field that could shed important new light on the origins of airplanes.Mung
January 18, 2013
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Wikipedia:
Vitalism is the doctrine, often advocated in the past but now rejected by mainstream science, that "living organisms are fundamentally different from non-living entities because they contain some non-physical element or are governed by different principles than are inanimate things"
No wonder vitalism is alive and well in the 21st century. 1. living organisms just are fundamentally different from non-living entities Everyone knows this. 2. because they contain some non-physical element "Non-physical element" is a contradiction in terms. 3. because they contain some non-physical element What is this non-physical "whatever" that can cause life? 4. or are governed by different principles than are inanimate things Isn't that obvious? Is there a reason biology isn't called chemistry, or physics?Mung
January 18, 2013
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Wikipedia:
Some aspects of contemporary science make reference to emergent processes; those in which the properties of a system cannot be fully described in terms of the properties of the constituents. Whether emergent system properties should be grouped with traditional vitalist concepts is a matter of semantic controversy.
hahahahahahMung
January 18, 2013
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“we’ve known life can come from non-life since the concept of ‘vitalism’ was debunked by the synthesis of urea from inorganic elements.” Our friend is wrong. Let me explain why.
There are numerous reasons. Let's start with the fact that we don't even have a definition of life yet. What our friend meant to say was that we can now imagine life coming from none life. Of course, we could imagine that before, so our friend is wrong again. The fact of the matter is that we have no known process by which life arises from non-life. So it is in fact not the case that we know that it can. Our "friend" is either woefully ignorant, or bluffing.Mung
January 18, 2013
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Take for example, ATP. Miniature Molecular Power Plant: ATP Synthase It can hardly be called a building block. It's not as if we ingest it in the air we breath. But would any "construction" in the cell take place without it? And it requires phosphate. But in what sense is the phosphate added to the ADP molecule to make ATP a "building block"? And here's a puzzler. ATP is need to build nucleotides, which are required to build proteins, which are required to build the system that creates ATP. b) in English: Adenosine diphosphate + inorganic Phosphate + energy produces Adenosine Triphosphate And where does the energy to make the energy come from, lol? Man I love this stuff. I can't wait for a collaboration between Mike Behe and Cornelius Hunter. Anyone want to start taking donations to fund a new volume in the same vein as Darwin's Black Box?Mung
January 18, 2013
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Eric, Great points. And to what extent are the "building blocks" themselves constructed from other building blocks? Amino Acid Synthesis Amino Acid Synthesis and Metabolism And it's not just proteins: Nucleotide Synthesis and Metabolism Nucleotide Biosynthesis And keep in mind proteins don't just function in isolation. They are context dependent.Mung
January 18, 2013
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englishmaninistanbul: Thank you for your comments. I think one piece of information you need to take into account is that biological structures are not simply an aggregation of smaller units that naturally come about through the processes of physics and chemistry. We first need to clarify which building blocks we are talking about. If we are just talking about chemical elements (atoms with their constituent protons, electrons, neutrons) then, yes, everyone agrees that those exist naturally. In addition, if we are talking about some simple molecules, yes, some of those too exist naturally. From there things get more dicey. Specifically, it is not the case, as you suggest, that molecules simply come together as part of a natural chemical process to form amino acids, and subsequently, proteins. Formation of the amino acids required for life under primitive earth conditions continues to be an active area of research. To be sure, there is evidence that some amino acids can form under primitive earth conditions, and some amino acids have been found in meteorite fragments and in space. However, it is far from certain that all of the necessary amino acids could have existed on the primitive earth at the same time and under the same conditions. (And we are completely setting aside issues such as relative abundance, chiralty, cross reactions, and so on.) So the formation/arrival of the amino acids necessary for life to form continues to be an area of interest for the chemical synthesis (to use Davies' term) origin of life paradigm. Those building blocks are still being studied. Nevertheless, I am willing to concede for the moment -- just for sake of discussion and to help focus us on the real issues -- that all the amino acids were readily available at the right time and place. What next? You mention:
Ditto for amino acids–so long as you line them all up in the right order they just click together and start folding and there you have your protein.
Not really. It turns out that amino acid chains often do not have a single folding pattern. An analogy I like to use is my child's toy of magnets and rods. In order to make a particular shape it is true that I need to have the magnets and rods in the right order. But while that is necessary, it is not sufficient. This is because the various magnets and rods can cross interact with each other, depending on how the chain is folded. And indeed, we are learning that systems within the cell help to fold the amino acid chain into the right form for the particular protein needed. Although the formation of proteins has long been portrayed as a simple 'amino-acid-chain-folds-automatically-into-protein' situation, that is actually not correct. Given a chain, say 300 amino acids long, there can be many possible folding patterns -- most of which constitute a jumbled mess, a few of which constitute functional structures, and perhaps only a couple of which constitute the relevant protein needed for the particular function. Moreover, even if we were to concede that a chain of amino acids will automatically fold to the correct protein, that still leaves unanswered the $64,000 question that you gloss over with ". . . so long as you line them all up in the right order . . . ." This ordering is precisely the issue that cannot be solved by natural means within the resources of the known universe. Beyond proteins, we have protein complexes, then larger molecular structures (for example, the molecular machines often discussed), organelles, cells, organs, larger systems, and the entire physical organism itself. All of this can, in the sense Davies is discussing, be termed "hardware." My point is that current chemical synthesis efforts don't even scratch the surface of dealing with all the hardware. Right now they are still stuck back at the amino acids and proteins -- what are often referred to as the "building blocks" of life.Eric Anderson
January 18, 2013
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Humans today live with the help of machines, both internal and external. Are they somehow less human?Mung
January 18, 2013
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The whole “building-block of life” idea is an odd one, really.
If you really think about it, it really is.Mung
January 18, 2013
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Box: Life has an aspect that is machine-like, indeed uses nanotechnology based on information-rich carbon chemistry molecules. But that is not equal to saying that life is machinery. KFkairosfocus
January 18, 2013
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In reality they don’t even take into account meaningful hardware requirements.
That's what I love about Upright BiPed's argument. It makes them focus on the material requirements. And when the see the implications, they run like hell. Talk about intellectual dishonesty. OT: By the way, "see" is being used metaphorically. So when Jesus says, "and they shall see the Son of Man ..." Why does that require a literal visual sighting of Jesus in the sky?Mung
January 18, 2013
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