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Materialist Ideology: Is It Patent Nonsense?

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As we know, atheists and agnostics have been smuggling metaphysical truth claims into the study of nature for a long time. Materialism is their God and Darwin is their prophet. Accordingly, they distort the evidence so they can lead it in the direction of the desired outcome—and when it resists—they drag it in kicking and screaming. There can be no question that this is an ethical breach. Injecting world-view commitments into the investigative process violates the integrity of science, just as prohibiting alternative world views violates the dignity of the human person.

The two points are connected. If Materialistic Darwinism was a sensible idea, Western institutions wouldn’t place a politically-correct shield around it to protect it from rational scrutiny. In the final analysis, materialist ideologues are religious fanatics. Those who say “Comply with my ideology or I will ‘expel’ you” are reminiscent of those who say “convert to my religion or I will kill you.” It is a difference only in degree, not in kind.

Still, to indicate that a given world view is nonscientific or inhumane does not necessarily prove that it is patent nonsense. To be sure, ID science has made its mark and the evidence does show that materialism is wildly implausible and highly improbable. This is a good start, but we must keep one thing in mind: In large measure, we are dealing with the so-called mind/body “problem.” Materialistic ideology is a metaphysical dragon. We may snare it with a scientific net, but we must slay it with a metaphysical sword. I submit that the following argument can serve as the final coup de gras:

Conceptual thought is possible only if an immaterial faculty of mind is involved. Under the circumstances, materialism cannot possibly be true. We can show why this must be the case by using a few concrete examples:

When I refer to an animal as a “dog,” I am conceptualizing or abstracting “what” it is, namely, an animal that has traits (and a nature) in common with all other members of its class. It is the universality or the sameness of those traits that defines the concept. I may experience this spotted terrier or that white poodle through my senses, but I can only conceptualize the what (the sameness) of each dog.  So it is with the concept of a human being, or pyramid, or any other concept.

Conversely, nothing that exists as matter can be a universal (or a concept); it is always a particular, a singular thing in a class of many (a fact of human experience). I can, for example, perceive (sense, imagine, or remember) a particular triangle as a percussive musical instrument, and I can, in the same way, perceive another particular triangle as a yield traffic sign, but I cannot conceive either of them or their individual proportions. I can only conceive or understand “triangularity” or the universal

Our concepts, because they are universals, cannot be material. If they came from a material brain, they would have to be material, which means that they could not be concepts. Since we do, indeed, have the power of conceptual thought, it is clear that this power must be immaterial, which means that it cannot originate from a bodily organ. The act of the brain, therefore, though it may be necessary for producing conceptual thought, is not sufficient.

If concepts were material, they would also have to be subjective or peculiar to each individual. They could not be shared or generalized because each concept would be embodied in the matter of the person who held it and could not, therefore, also be embodied in another person’s matter. Yet we all share the concept of what a dog is. Thus, conceptual knowledge is, and must be, immaterial, objective, generalizable, and shared.

When we grasp the nature of a thing, that is, when we conceptualize it, the form that exists in our mind is exactly the same form that exists in the thing itself. (We conceptualize “dogness” as we observe Fido [the particular], and Fido really is a dog [the universal]. We are, in fact, thinking about that thing and what it is. If the intellect was my brain or part of my brain, and if the concept in the intellect was also a material thing, then that every time I conceptualize “dog,” my brain would become a dog.

So, we return to the opening question. Materialist ideology: Is it patent nonsense? Clearly, the answer is yes. Conceptual thought is possible only if an immaterial faculty of mind is involved. Atheists and agnostics need to face the facts. They must also guard against “chronological snobbery.” The latest is not always the best. As one philosopher put it, “There is really no mind-body problem. There’s a bad philosophy problem, self-inflicted.”

Comments
[Actually, Logic does apply to the real world. It is not just a mental exercise.] Neil Rickert
I’ll repeat. Logic is solipsistic. It has no world.
Logic is not solipsistic in the sense that it can be applied to the real world. That is why it has a logical/psychological component (mental) and an ontological component (real world). I have already provided an example: If it rains, the streets will get wet. If logic was solipsistic, it could not be applied to real world situations and problems. I can provide more examples if you like. That is what the Law of Identity is all about. It is the foundational law for statements about the real world. A thing cannot be what it is (not just how we perceive it) and also be something else at the same time in the same way. That is a statement about the real world. Jupiter cannot exist and not exist at the same time. Jupiter is the name a planet in the real world. The law of identity applies to it, just as it applies to the existence of anything. However, we are getting pretty far afield. My earlier statement, which is the subject of this thread and one which you did not address, is still in force: If a thing has parts (matter), it can disintegrate and die; if a thing doesn’t have parts (non-matter) it cannot disintegrate and die—therefore, matter cannot produce or be changed into non matter. You have not yet addressed the main issue.StephenB
February 25, 2014
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StephenB:
Actually, Logic does apply to the real world. It is not just a mental exercise.
As a mathematician, I might know a thing or two about logic. I'll repeat. Logic is solipsistic. It has no world. We apply logic to questions about the world. We take a world problem, and form premises. Then we use the logic to reach conclusions. And, finally, we interpret the conclusions in the world. The logic is the inference part, taking you from the premises to the conclusion. It is action on propositions (the premises) to infer another proposition (the conclusion). What the propositions say about the world plays no role in the logic.
If logic didn’t apply to the real world, there would be no such thing as a sound argument.
That's confused. Logic is valid or invalid. Soundness applies to an argument, rather than to logic. The argument, as a whole, can apply to the world. But the logic part of the argument is an abstract operation on propositions. In typical use of logic, the premises are ordinary facts (assuming that they are true). They are not logical facts. The expression "logical fact" should apply to facts of the logic itself, such as rules of inference, and perhaps to tautologies. When analyzing logic within logic, such as Gödel has done, the premises might be logical facts. But, in ordinary arguments, the premises are ordinary facts.Neil Rickert
February 25, 2014
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seventrees
Or, “By definition, a material being has parts and can undergo entropy. By definition, a non-material being has no parts and cannot undergo entropy“. Thus, this was not an unevidenced religious apologetics claim.
Excellent.StephenB
February 24, 2014
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StepehenB
By definition, a material being has parts and can disintegrate. By definition, a non-material being has no parts and cannot die.
Or, "By definition, a material being has parts and can undergo entropy. By definition, a non-material being has no parts and cannot undergo entropy". Thus, this was not an unevidenced religious apologetics claim.seventrees
February 24, 2014
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Earth to Neil Rickert: Our mind and consciousness emerging from our matter and energy interactions is a completely unevidenced religious apologetics claim. :razz: Have a nice dayJoe
February 24, 2014
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Neil, thanks for your participation. [It’s logical fact (matter cannot produce non-matter)]] .
That, it cannot be. Logic is solipsistic. It has no world. Logic facts are necessarily abstract facts. To reference material or death in a logic argument, there would need to be premises that make material or death available to the logic.
Actually, Logic does apply to the real world. It is not just a mental exercise. The statement, if it rains, the streets will get wet applies both to both the mental aspect of logic and the real world aspect of logic. If logic didn't apply to the real world, there would be no such thing as a sound argument. By definition, a material being has parts and can disintegrate. By definition, a non-material being has no parts and cannot die. If follows, therefore, that a material being cannot give rise to an immaterial being. [Conan Doyle’s material body did not produce the immaterial story of Sherlock Holmes.]
This is a completely unevidenced religious apologetics claim. Or perhaps its an appeal to the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
I have said nothing about religion at all. I simply pointed out that there is no logical pathway from matter to non-matter. You may say that logic does not apply to the real world, but that statement is easily refuted. I could prove unlimited examples to show that the rules of logic apply to existent beings. Logic is based on the law of non-contradiction (psychological, logical) AND the law of identity (ontological). The law of identify applies to the real world.StephenB
February 24, 2014
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StephenB:
It’s logical fact.
That, it cannot be. Logic is solipsistic. It has no world. Logic facts are necessarily abstract facts. To reference material or death in a logic argument, there would need to be premises that make material or death available to the logic.
Conan Doyle’s material body did not produce the immaterial story of Sherlock Holmes.
This is a completely unevidenced religious apologetics claim. Or perhaps its an appeal to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.Neil Rickert
February 24, 2014
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Joe
BTW information is neither matter nor energy.
Absolutely right.StephenB
February 24, 2014
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[Something that can die (matter) cannot produce something that cannot die (spirit)]. Neil
That’s surely nonsense.
It's logical fact. Matter has nothing in it that can produce immateriality or spirit. Something that is temporal cannot morph into something that is immortal. Something that has parts cannot morph into something that has no parts. It's logically impossible. Only non-matter can produce non-matter.
Conan Doyle died long ago. But the Sherlock Holmes that he produced does not appear to be dying.
Conan Doyle's material body did not produce the immaterial story of Sherlock Holmes. Only an immaterial mind can produce a story. Matter cannot produce non-matter, not even in theory. There is no logical pathway from matter to non-matter.
There’s lots of actively used mathematics that came from already dead mathematicians.
Again, there is no logical pathway from brain to non-matter. Thanks for your contribution.StephenB
February 24, 2014
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StephenB:
Something that can die (matter) cannot produce something that cannot die (spirit).
That's surely nonsense. Conan Doyle died long ago. But the Sherlock Holmes that he produced does not appear to be dying. There's lots of actively used mathematics that came from already dead mathematicians.
If I observe a dog and you observe a dog (or any other adult observes a dog) will one of us vary in our account and say that it is something other than a dog? If the answer is yes, you need to explain. If the answer is no, then apprehended categories are, as I said, unchangeable.
This misses the point entirely. Categories are not sets or classes. We form a set by assembling individuals. We form a category by taking the totality of everything, and dividing it in accordance with our criteria. Perhaps your criteria for a vertebrate are that it is any organism with kidneys, while my criteria are that it is any organism with vertebrae. We might both identify the same existing organisms as vertebrates, but we are using quite different categories. We can conceive of logically possible organisms that are in only one of those categories.Neil Rickert
February 24, 2014
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Neil, thank you for your input.
My view is something like J.J. Gibson’s direct perception. According to Gibson, we have neural devices that act as recognizers. He calls them transducers. They are tuned to the kind of things that we recognize. So the dog transducer is entirely material. The dog concept amounts to that which the dog transducer recognizes. That’s an abstraction, so immaterial.
In at least one sense, this position is not radically different from mine in the sense that we both recognize perceive (I call it conceptualize) a dog as a dog. On other words, we are in contact with reality. That is all to the good, but it doesn’t explain how a material brain (or transducer, if you like) produces an immaterial abstraction. Here is the difficulty. Matter-energy is made of parts and changes through time. Every material thing dies in the sense that it will disintegrate and eventually become another thing. A human body disintegrates and turns to dust. An immaterial mind (or soul, or spirit) has no parts, which means that it cannot disintegrate and will not die. Something that can die (matter) cannot produce something that cannot die (spirit). Thus, only an immaterial mind can produce an immaterial concept. You have not addressed the argument. [So, if I observe a dog and you observe dog, we will vary in our account of what it is that we observed and one of us may say that it was something other than a dog?]
You will probably see that with young children.However, it is to the advantage of the child to align his categories with those of the larger society, so that such discrepancies become rare as the child matures.
I think it would be more profitable to discuss only those who are capable of processing the world around them. If I observe a dog and you observe a dog (or any other adult observes a dog) will one of us vary in our account and say that it is something other than a dog? If the answer is yes, you need to explain. If the answer is no, then apprehended categories are, as I said, unchangeable. You are arguing that they are changeable and that they are not universal, which means that they are not shared by everyone (who is capable of doing so).StephenB
February 24, 2014
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Thank you for your clarification, StephenB.seventrees
February 24, 2014
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So concepts are like photons, except our eyes cannot detect them?
Neural nets are quite capable of abstracting generalities from instances of particulars, and then of recognizing the presence of a class member from small fragments of a particular
The material neural nets were designed to aid the immaterial mind. BTW information is neither matter nor energy.Joe
February 24, 2014
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There is a category error afoot. Concepts are neither material things nor immaterial things. To conceptualize is to engage in a cognitive activity, not the in the creation of “things,” whether material things or “things in my mind.” Neural nets are quite capable of abstracting generalities from instances of particulars, and then of recognizing the presence of a class member from small fragments of a particular - a facility comparable to abstracting “dog” from individual dogs. Yet there is no immaterial component to a neural net, nor are immaterial “things” created as it acquires facility with a particular abstraction. There are changes in connection strengths within a network. There is nothing “immaterial” about that activity in the sense of “spiritual.”Reciprocating Bill
February 24, 2014
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StephenB:
So my question has been this: If not an immaterial mind, what is the source of that immaterial concept.
Human inventiveness. The inventiveness of our perceptual systems. My view is something like J.J. Gibson's direct perception. According to Gibson, we have neural devices that act as recognizers. He calls them transducers. They are tuned to the kind of things that we recognize. So the dog transducer is entirely material. The dog concept amounts to that which the dog transducer recognizes. That's an abstraction, so immaterial.
Does that mean that when we “perceive” (I would say apprehend or conceptualize) a dog, we are, in fact, simply describing our own interactions and that we are not really recognizing the dog as a dog.
You are reading that too literally. By "our own interactions", I did not intend to imply that I was referring only to conscious interactions. I'm thinking of the kind of interactions that go on in the perceptual system, such as the Gibsonian dog transducer recognizing the dog. And then the perceptual system presents us with a visual description of that interaction, which will include recognized features.
So, if I observe a dog and you observe dog, we will vary in our account of what it is that we observed and one of us may say that it was something other than a dog?
You will probably see that with young children. However, it is to the advantage of the child to align his categories with those of the larger society, so that such discrepancies become rare as the child matures.
The notion that categories are universal is not unique to Plato. By definition it is something public that can be shared.
So the young child studies up in encylopedias, and learns all of the characteristics of a dog before he ever sees one? It could not work that way. The child has to be able to categorize before he can perceive anything. And how to categorize is underdetermined by the way the world is. So there are unavoidably going to be differences. As the child matures, and begins to be able to observe how others categorize, he can attempt to align his categorization with that of others. It's unlikely that the alignment will ever be perfect. This is an example of the kind of problem that Wittgenstein described as "the impossibility of learning a rule."Neil Rickert
February 23, 2014
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Upright Biped:
Neil you’ve made it clear that you see the rise of an immaterial thing to be no problem for material systems.
UB, it appears that you have picked up on something that I missed. Did Neil really indicate that matter can produce a non-material entity? Even the epiphenominalists would not go that far. I hope Neil will clarify the point.StephenB
February 23, 2014
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Neil, thank you for contributing. You wrote,
Personally, I take mind to be a metaphor, so the question never arises.
Well, of course, I raised the question when I wrote my post, and my question persists. You seem to agree that concepts (such as dog) are immaterial. Yet you also hold that no immaterial mind exists to generate it. So my question has been this: If not an immaterial mind, what is the source of that immaterial concept.
My current view is that we interact intensely with the world. And we perceive ourselves interacting with the world. So when we describe the world, we are really describing our own interactions.
Does that mean that when we “perceive” (I would say apprehend or conceptualize) a dog, we are, in fact, simply describing our own interactions and that we are not really recognizing the dog as a dog.
I see categories as human pragmatic constructs. I see them as unavoidably varying between people. And I see people modifying their categories in accordance with pragmatic considerations
So, if I observe a dog and you observe dog, we will vary in our account of what it is that we observed and one of us may say that it was something other than a dog?
The idea that categories are universal is something of a platonic stance. It might be useful for theorizing. But it’s an idealization. Whether ideal platonic categories can change is presumably a question to be answered by the theoreticians of that platonic stance.
The notion that categories are universal is not unique to Plato. By definition it is something public that can be shared. Category: n. “a class or division of people or things regarded as having particular shared characteristics.” .StephenB
February 23, 2014
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immaterial entities is no more of a problem than that we can have a story of a Sherlock Holmes
Neil you've made it clear that you see the rise of an immaterial thing to be no problem for material systems. I'm sure you've conducted a thorough analysis in reaching your conclusion. Can you tell us how you defined an immaterial thing so that it can be identified as being distinct from a material thing, and what was required for such a thing to become established in a material system. It would seem that these things would be pertinent to the conclusion that they present "no problem".Upright BiPed
February 23, 2014
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seventrees, thanks for your thoughtful comments.
When stating my wonderment, I was assuming that there are some people who believe our minds and the concepts generated from them are immaterial, even though they believe that they are emergent properties of matter-energy interactions.
From what I have read of epiphenominalsits, they do, indeed, think that mind emerges from matter, but, ultimately, they define "mind" to mean something grounded in matter, which is really just matter in a different formulation. In effect, they are cheating with words by using a term that has traditionally meant something immaterial and spiritual when they don't really mean that at all. I know of no epiphenominalist who believes in an immaterial faculty of mind.
will divide knowledge into two: Knowledge of our surrounding and knowledge of our being. Just to understand you clearly, are you saying that in principle, we cannot know about our minds if we start from our minds?
I think we are on the same page. Clearly, if we want to know ourselves and our minds, we can legitimately begin with our minds. What I object to is not the study of psychology, but a philosophy of mind that denies our ability to know anything about the external realm of existence outside of our mind (as in Descartes, Hume, and Kant) and tries to make it appear that we manufacture reality by creating artificial categories (as opposed to apprehending real categories). In other words, I object to a philosophy of mind which claims that we cannot know that a dog is a dog.StephenB
February 23, 2014
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StephenB:
Do you think a universal category (“what a thing is”)can change.
It's a bit hard to know what is being asked. I see categories as human pragmatic constructs. I see them as unavoidably varying between people. And I see people modifying their categories in accordance with pragmatic considerations. The idea that categories are universal is something of a platonic stance. It might be useful for theorizing. But it's an idealization. Whether ideal platonic categories can change is presumably a question to be answered by the theoreticians of that platonic stance.Neil Rickert
February 23, 2014
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Neil Rickert:
Personally, I take mind to be a metaphor, so the question never arises.
Deceiving onself is always the way to go through life- Not.Joe
February 23, 2014
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StephenB:
Well, the real question is how a material mind could generate an immaterial concept.
Personally, I take mind to be a metaphor, so the question never arises. My current view is that we interact intensely with the world. And we perceive ourselves interacting with the world. So when we describe the world, we are really describing our own interactions. And there is something of story telling in that, because story telling makes for better communication than "just the facts". That our stories involve immaterial entities is no more of a problem than that we can have a story of a Sherlock Holmes.Neil Rickert
February 23, 2014
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Thank you for your reply, StephenB. I just hope you did not misunderstand me somewhere when I typed: "I wonder why an exception on this issue exists to some people. At least, I will give it that the determinists are consistent." When stating my wonderment, I was assuming that there are some people who believe our minds and the concepts generated from them are immaterial, even though they believe that they are emergent properties of matter-energy interactions. Concerning your last paragraph, I will divide knowledge into two: Knowledge of our surrounding and knowledge of our being. Just to understand you clearly, are you saying that in principle, we cannot know about our minds if we start from our minds?seventrees
February 23, 2014
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seventrees
Greetings. StephenB, I would not lie and say that I really followed in general what you were saying. I think this is due to the fact that I have not taken any philosophy course. It will take me days to get it. But this is what caught me:
Seventrees, welcome to the discussion. [Our concepts, because they are universals, cannot be material. If they came from a material brain, they would have to be material, which means that they could not be concepts.]
As far as I remember from physics and chemistry, anything which proceeds from matter-energy interactions can be characterized in thermodynamic terms. Trivial examples: 1) Some chemical reactions, apart from producing new compounds, produce sound, and in some cases, changes in color. 2) Flow of electricity in general can produce heat and magnetic fields depending on the situation.
So far, this makes perfect sense to me. Physical causes produce physical effects.
But somehow, our concepts (which cannot exist without our consciousness), if produced by matter-energy interactions, cannot be characterized fundamentally in thermodynamic terms.
Well, as you have, no doubt, observed, I am arguing that matter-energy, being physical, cannot produce non-physical concepts. I am arguing that you cannot get non-matter (or spirit) from matter. Matter-energy, because it is made up of things that change, disintegrate, and die, cannot produce spirit, which cannot change, disintegrate, and die.
I wonder why an exception on this issue exists to some people. At least, I will give it that the determinists are consistent.
In my judgment, the problem goes all the way back to Descartes [or perhaps Ockham] and the method of beginning the search for knowledge in one's own mind (enogenic epistemology) as opposed to the correct method of searching for it in the outside world (exogenic epistemology). If you begin with your own mind, a problem further perpetuated by Hume and Kant, you will be forever trapped in that same space. It is a great mistake to believe that knowledge is a product of the processing agent. We must begin with self-evident truths about the real world.StephenB
February 23, 2014
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Neil, thanks for your contribution. You wrote,
Your “argument” contains no persuasive reasoning. I see no more problem with an immaterial concept, than with an immaterial Sherlock Holmes. Both are parts of stories that we tell to help us navigate our way through the world.
Well, the real question is how a material mind could generate an immaterial concept. That is the main challenge of the post. It has never been addressed.
I’ll agree that a simplistic physical device, such as the kind of robot that might be built today, is unlikely to have immaterial concepts. However, we are likely to describe it as having immaterial concepts, just as we describe ourselves as having immaterial concepts.
Earlier, I thought you agreed that a concept is non-material. Did I misunderstand you?
I doubt that a brain apprehends anything. Apprehending is an activity of the whole person, not of the brain alone.
Surely, you don't think that our ability to understand concepts could come from any other source than either our mind or our brain.
You inserted “[the category]” in your quote of what I wrote. That completely changes the meaning to something not intended. And then you ask me to explain what I never said?
I am sorry if I misunderstood you. Let me simply ask the question, then, from scratch. Do you think a universal category ("what a thing is")can change. Also, I am still not clear on your perceived difference between a category and a concept. When we come to understand that a dog is a dog (I assume you agree that this is possible) what is it that we understand? Is it the concept or the category? As you know, I argue that they are the same thing and that when we grasp the meaning of dog, we do so by means of the concept or the category.StephenB
February 23, 2014
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Greetings. StephenB, I would not lie and say that I really followed in general what you were saying. I think this is due to the fact that I have not taken any philosophy course. It will take me days to get it. But this is what caught me:
Our concepts, because they are universals, cannot be material. If they came from a material brain, they would have to be material, which means that they could not be concepts.
As far as I remember from physics and chemistry, anything which proceeds from matter-energy interactions can be characterized in thermodynamic terms. Trivial examples: 1) Some chemical reactions, apart from producing new compounds, produce sound, and in some cases, changes in color. 2) Flow of electricity in general can produce heat and magnetic fields depending on the situation. But somehow, our concepts (which cannot exist without our consciousness), if produced by matter-energy interactions, cannot be characterized fundamentally in thermodynamic terms. I wonder why an exception on this issue exists to some people. At least, I will give it that the determinists are consistent.seventrees
February 23, 2014
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Your “argument” contains no persuasive reasoning. I see no more problem with an immaterial concept, than with an immaterial Sherlock Holmes. Both are parts of stories that we tell to help us navigate our way through the world. Isn't it worth something that an immaterial mind has intention and can project an affect into the world while an immaterial Sherlock Holmes can not? There seems a clear distinction, and that's even disregarding the fact that the mind is where the concept of made-up Sherlock Holmes that has no effect on the world originated in the first place.JGuy
February 23, 2014
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StephenB:
If you agree that concepts are immaterial, then why do disagree with my argument that an immaterial mind is necessary to grasp them?
Your "argument" contains no persuasive reasoning. I see no more problem with an immaterial concept, than with an immaterial Sherlock Holmes. Both are parts of stories that we tell to help us navigate our way through the world. I'll agree that a simplistic physical device, such as the kind of robot that might be built today, is unlikely to have immaterial concepts. However, we are likely to describe it as having immaterial concepts, just as we describe ourselves as having immaterial concepts.
Are you saying that a material brain can apprehend an immaterial form?
I doubt that a brain apprehends anything. Apprehending is an activity of the whole person, not of the brain alone.
You think that the category changes?
You inserted "[the category]" in your quote of what I wrote. That completely changes the meaning to something not intended. And then you ask me to explain what I never said? Sorry, I can't do that.Neil Rickert
February 23, 2014
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Hi franklin. Thank you for your contribution
It’s not that the ‘thing’ doesn’t exist it is that the ‘thing’ is not defined. The concept of brook, stream, and river are totally artificial and are not in any way, shape, or form universal.
The concept doesn’t come from the definition; the definition comes from the concept. That is why a small body of water can be defined several ways. The issue is about one vs. many. Obviously, there are many instances [particular] of small bodies of water [universal], just as there are many instances [particular] of large bodies of water [universal]. There is some dispute, for example, over whether there are four or five [particular] oceans [universal]. It hardly matters which number is correct or whether we call them seas or oceans or whether one is larger than the other or whether their boundaries with tributaries are perfectly established. What matters is that we understand the universal concept of ocean and that we abstract if from the many particular instances.
To test that hypothesis can you tell me what delineates a stream versus a creek versus a river?
People often use the terms interchangeably. What matters is the concept, which is a small body of water. It doesn’t matter if there is no agreement about which word is used to describe it. The issue is how we know things—not how perfectly or precisely we know them. We know things by general concepts, not by particular instances. If it can’t be generalized, then it can’t be known. If it can only be generalized in a vague way, then it can only be known in a vague way. Most things can be known clearly because their class can easily be distinguished from other classes That is why no one disagrees about the meaning of a dog or a cat. In keeping with that point, it doesn’t matter that some people call a rock a stone. Everyone knows what it is, just as everyone knows what a stream is, even if they call it a brook.
I’m expecting that now you will tell me that the definition of a river is irrelevant to the definition of a ‘river as a category’ or some other such contortion.
If the category is vaguely defined, then our knowledge is vague. If the definition of a river overlaps with the definition of a lake, then our knowledge about small or medium bodies of water is imprecise to that extent. That doesn’t mean that there is no particular lake or no category of lakes or that people cannot give them names..
What makes a river a river and not some other descriptor…like stream?
Size. Do you have any doubts that the Missouri River is not an ocean or a stream or a brook? Of course, you don’t.
The only thing you have is that the ‘category called rivers’ consists solely of things ‘we’ have arbitrarily named as being rivers. There is no universality within the concept of ‘river’.
Actually, you have it backwards. We wouldn’t give them a name if they didn’t already have something in common with other things in their class. That is where names come from—and definitions—and concepts—and categories.StephenB
February 23, 2014
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By your account, there is no such thing as a shore–or a beach–or a creek–or a stream etc.
It's not that the 'thing' doesn't exist it is that the 'thing' is not defined. The concept of brook, stream, and river are totally artificial and are not in any way, shape, or form universal. To test that hypothesis can you tell me what delineates a stream versus a creek versus a river?
A particular is one of many in a class. The Mississippi River is one particular river in a class called river.
OK. let's test this. What is a river? Please, give me as complete a definition of this entity that you consider as being 'universal'. I'm expecting that now you will tell me that the definition of a river is irrelevant to the definition of a 'river as a category' or some other such contortion.
Where the river starts and the shore ends doesn’t change the definition of river and shore
Really? What makes a river a river and not some other descriptor...like stream?
By your account, there is no such thing as a shore–or a beach–or a creek–or a stream etc.
Again, StephenB, it isn't that 'they' don't exist it is that they are loosely defined and are only abstract constructs that we use to communicate with other folks about. Equally, the designation of river versus stream versus creek are arbitrary. The only thing you have is that the 'category called rivers' consists solely of things 'we' have arbitrarily named as being rivers. There is no universality within the concept of 'river'.franklin
February 22, 2014
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