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Lizzie Joins the ID Camp Without Even Knowing It!

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Lizzie,

You continue to astonish.

In the first sentence of your reply to my prior post you wrote: “I know that it is possible for intelligent life-forms to send radio signals, because we do; my priors for the a radio signal to have an intelligent origin are therefore substantially above zero.”

As I demonstrated earlier, the issue is not whether nature or intelligent agents can cause radio signals. We know that both can. The issue is whether we have any warrant to distinguish this particular signal from a natural signal.

Then you write: “I know of no non-intelligent process that might generate prime numbers (presumably expressed as binary code), and so my priors on that are low.”

Upon a moment’s reflection I am certain you will agree that this is not, strictly speaking, correct. It is easy to imagine such a process. Imagine (as you suggested) a simple binary code that assigns two “dots” to the number “two” and three “dots” to the number “three” and five “dots” to the number “five” and so on, and also assigns a “dash” to delimit each number (a cumbersome code to be sure, but a conceivable one). In this code the series “dot dot dash dot dot dot dash” denotes the first two prime numbers between 1 and 100. Surely you will agree that it is well within the power of chance and mechanical necessity to produce a radio signal with such a simple sequence.

So what do we now know? We know that nature sends out radio signals. But that is not all we know. We know that it is entirely within the realm of reason to suppose that nature could send out a radio signal that denotes the first two prime numbers between 1 and 100 given a particular binary code.

From this information we must conclude that if the signal we received were only the first two prime numbers, we would have no warrant to assign a high probability to “intelligent cause.”

Nevertheless, we both know that your calculation (and it is a very good calculation for which I commend you) that the probability that this particular signal has an intelligent source is for all practical purposes “one” is correct.

Nature can send out a radio signal.

Nature can embed a pattern in that signal that appears to generate prime numbers under the binary protocol we have designated.

Why, then, are we warranted to infer intelligent agency and not the work of nature as the cause of this particular signal?

The answer has nothing to do with your or my “intuition” about the signal.

The answer is that we both know that nature can do two things. (1) It can generate highly improbable patterns. Imagine ANY 500 bit long series of dots and dashes, and you will have a pattern that could not reasonably be replicated by chance before the heat death of the universe. And (2) it can generate specified patterns (for example, the two prime numbers we saw above).

We also know something about what nature cannot do. You said, “I know of no non-intelligent process that might generate prime numbers.” You were almost right. As I have already demonstrated, you should have said “I know of no non-intelligent process that might generate A COMPLEX PATTERN OF prime numbers.”

In other words, you and I know that while nature can do “specified,” and nature can do “complex,” it cannot do “specified and complex at the same time”! This is not your intuition speaking Lizzie. Without seeming to know it, you have made an inference from the universal experience of the human race.

Here’s the most important “take away” for purposes of the discussion we have been having: As much as you have bucked against the idea, you were able to make this design inference based upon nothing more than the character of the embedded signal (i.e., that it contained complex and specified information at the same time, that is to say, complex specified information).

Welcome to the ID camp Lizzie!

Comments
Done, here.kairosfocus
August 23, 2011
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Are beavers designers? Are they intelligent? Cf here.kairosfocus
August 20, 2011
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Dr ES, Thank you. Appreciated. GEM of TKI PS, DV, on the morrow I intend to post something on Beavers as Designers . . . all sorts of implications lurk in that.kairosfocus
August 19, 2011
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OOPS, Josephkairosfocus
August 19, 2011
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Jose3ph, exactly: show us the cases that do not turn out to be illustrations of intelligent design in disguise or unrecognised. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 19, 2011
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Eugene If it helps - I would never claim that CSI can be generated spontaneously because I believe that if you examine the definition of CSI (as in Dembski's most recent writings) you find that it is cannot be generated spontaneously by definition. If plausible natural cause is found then it no longer counts as CSI.markf
August 19, 2011
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The anti-ID case is not serious for one simple reason- To refute any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate nature, operating freely can produce the effect/ structure deemed to be of agency origin. Anything short of that is just plain ole whining. And whining should never be taken seriously.Joseph
August 19, 2011
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Markf, By "serious" I mean "scientific" (no personalities, nor passion, nor personal likes/dislikes). As simple as that. The one you mention is serious. But such things get buried under non-scientific repartee. The fluff makes it difficult to follow the case. It is tiring to get through rounds and rounds of repetitive philosophising that something might or might not be possible. In particular, I mean perpetual repetitions that "CSI can be generated spontaneously". This is not science without concrete examples, this is philosophy. Of course, true philosophy is also serious, but I am afraid it is a different story. What else can an onlooker suppose apart from the unwillingness to hear the other side? Thanks.Eugene S
August 19, 2011
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Eugene
Unfortunately, I can see unwillingness of Darwinist users of this forum to discuss the ID argumentation seriously (the rare exceptions prove the rule)
What are your criteria for a serious argument? Much of the debate above is about the relevance of Bayesian inference to detecting design - something which Dembski disagrees with but presumably thinks is a serious subject which is relevant to ID (he devotes a paper and a whole chapter of The Design Inference to it). You might disagree with the anti-ID case but why do you say it is not serious?markf
August 19, 2011
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Grunty, ID is not anti-evolution. And darwinism doesn't explain the origin of spcies. As for pulsars there wasn't any investigation that went into that call of being artificial. Geez pulsars don't even meet SETI's criteria for an alien radio signal.Joseph
August 19, 2011
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CSI has generated false negatives? Evidence please. Darwinian algorithms? Evidence please.Joseph
August 19, 2011
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Hi All, I have seen mentions of onlookers, one of which I happen to be. Here is what I observed, if it is interesting to anyone. Unfortunately, I can see unwillingness of Darwinist users of this forum to discuss the ID argumentation seriously (the rare exceptions prove the rule). I hazard a guess that this is done for non-scientific reasons, one of which seems to be unwillingness to be reconciled to the two ideas: 1. ID is science. 2. ID does not refute religion, which is a no-no for materialist thinkers, who maintain that "proper science" must shut the door in front of any religious implications. It is my personal opinion but after all I have read to date here and elsewhere (I even participated in chats with some Darwinists users here, without calling names), the Darwinist camp goes even further down in my estimation, regrettably. Of course, I can distinguish Darwinism from Darwinists :) But as far as Darwinism is concerned, IMHO it is already a matter of the past. My special handshake to Kairosfocus.Eugene S
August 19, 2011
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PS: Cf here, noticing site-specificity and use of divergent architectures based on stream flow patterns. Observe:
A beaver shapes a dam according to the strength of the water's current. Relatively still water encourages dams that are almost straight; while dams in stronger currents are curved, bowed toward upstream. The beavers use driftwood, green willows, birch and poplars; and they mix in mud and stones that contribute to the dam's strength. When some of the sticks used in the dam "truncheon" (start to grow) the tangled roots contribute more strength to the dam. Beavers are known to build very large dams.[1] The largest known was discovered by satellite imagery in Northern Alberta, in 2007, approximately 2,790 ft (850 m) long,[2] beating the previous record holder found near Three Forks, Montana, at 2,140 ft (650 m) long, 14 ft (4.3 m) high, and 23 ft (7.0 m) thick at the base.[3] . . . . studies involving beaver habitual activities have indicated that beavers may respond to an array of stimuli (such as seeing water movement), not just the sound of running water. In two experiments Wilson[6] and Richard (1967, 1980)[Full citation needed] demonstrate that, although beavers will pile material close to a loudspeaker emitting sounds of water running, they only do so after a considerable period of time. Additionally the beavers, when faced with a pipe allowing water to pass through their dam, eventually stopped the flow of water by plugging the pipe with mud and sticks. The beavers were observed to do this even when the pipe extended several meters upstream and near the bottom of the stream and thus produced no sound of running water. Beavers normally repair damage to the dam and build it higher as long as the sound continues. However, in times of high water, they often allow spillways in the dam to flow freely . . . . A beaver dam has a certain amount of freeboard above the water level. When heavy rains occur, the pond fills up and the dam gradually releases the extra stored water. Often this is all that is necessary to reduce the height of the flood wave moving down the river, and will reduce or eliminate damage to human structures. Flood control is achieved in other ways as well. The surface of any stream intersects the surrounding water table. By raising the stream level, the gradient of the surface of the water table above the beaver dam is reduced, and water near the beaver dam flows more slowly into the stream. This further helps in reducing flood waves, and increases water flow when there is no rain. Beaver dams also smooth out water flow by increasing the area wetted by the stream. This allows more water to seep into the ground where its flow is slowed. This water eventually finds its way back to the stream. Rivers with beaver dams in their head waters have lower high water and higher low water levels.
Here, it is argued that beavers are a keystone species, raising issues onward of structures and fine-tuning of ecosystems:
A keystone species is one that modifies the natural environment in such a way that the overall ecosystem builds upon the change. The ponds, wetlands, and meadows formed by beaver dams increases bio-diversity and improves overall environmental quality. It is our opinion that many environmental decision makers do not fully understand the positive effects that beavers and dams bring to ecosystems. This is understandable, because beavers had been virtually eradicated prior to the development of modern scientific methods. This site incorporates first principle engineering concepts in combination with environmental observations to illustrate the extent that our watersheds have changed with the removal of beavers. Beavers affected our ecosystems and land in a very extensive and positive way. Modern society has recently begun to realize the benefits of wetlands. This realization marks a turning point in over 300 years of extensive wetland eradication. Beaver dams are the primary natural method of establishing wetlands. Beaver dams represent the only natural methods of forming lakes, ponds, and wetlands in most watersheds. The exceptions to this would be glacial lakes, or lakes formed by geologic activity . . .
In short, the humble beaver raises some very significant questions about designed designers, and designed environments. Which has things to say about powers of adaptation being designed in to species and ecosystems. That is, we are back to the issue raised in Wallace's intelligent evolution concept as a designed means of creating particular features of the world of life in local ecosystems.kairosfocus
August 19, 2011
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Molch: Have you noticed that such are specifically adapted to location and are functionally specific and organised? FSCO implies FSCI, via nodes and arcs analysis. And recall, the solar system threshold is 500 bits of such. Now where the beaver got that ability from is a great question. One that would be directly comparable to same relative to the AI in a robot. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 19, 2011
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So, beaver dams have FSCI?molch
August 18, 2011
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F/N: Pardon, Dr Bot, but if you think that the issue is mere assertions, or "language," instead of the underlying issues of demonstrated selective hyperskepticism and projection through unwarranted turnabout accusation, pardon but you missed the boat, here, here, and here as well as here leading on to here.kairosfocus
August 18, 2011
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Onlookers: The above shows how Dr Bot is not being serious in any way worth a further discussion. I speak for record. I pointed out above in outline again the specific reason for inferring on FSCI to intelligence. Dr Bot's dismissal attempt was to say this was to humans not to intelligence. I pointed out the reason why I draw the distinction, with evidence. He then accuses of circularity, failing to address evidence. For just one aspect, what part of say a beaver making a dam adapted to the particular trees and location is human? Or, since when do we infer to "human" instead of computer engineer when we see the functionally specific complex organisation and information in a computer? For that matter, when I pointed to the prospect of artificially intelligent machines, such as R Daneel Olivaw, as illustrating how non-human intelligences on say the Smith Cybernetic model, could be developed, what did that show but that I am -- and have long been -- open to other cases? The first suffices to show that we have observed cases of relevant non-human intelligence building entities that exhibit FSCO/I, and the second to show that merely being human does not equip one to do particular instances of design. the third, where I point to an architecture that opens up a whole world of possibilities, and conceptual possibilities, shows that I am open to different architectures of intelligence. So, "human" and intelligent designer cannot be equivalent. The accusation of circularity on inferring inductively from tested, reliable signs of intelligence to intelligence as their most credible cause, through trying to substitute "human" for "intelligent," is therefore absurd on its face. Failure to respond seriously shows that the intent is to ridicule and dismiss, not to seriously deal with serious matters, that for instance impinge on whether soul/mind is real and independent of matter. He also tried a straight unwarranted turnabout to my highlighting a common uncivil rhetorical pattern [and remember I am currently dealing with a case where this has now amounted to making threats against my family]. When I pointed out that he was making unwarranted accusations in an obvious turnabout, which is atmosphere-poisoning, instead of dealing with matters on the merits, he tried another round of unwarranted accusation. Sorry, this is going nowhere where reasonable people want to go. And, Dr Bot the above is a sorry record that you have made; please, please, please do better than that. Good day. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 18, 2011
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A great example of circular reasoning. First off we can certainly infer that human like intelligence could be found elsewhere in the universe, but we don't know it for certain so based on what we DO know, humans are the only observed source of FSCI. You cite the example of FSCI min biology and the universe in general as an evidence of another intelligence that can make FSCI, whilst arguing that the FSCI in biology and the universe must have come from intelligence because we observe humans producing it. Around and around we go ;)DrBot
August 18, 2011
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I'm using the same language to you that you use to others, and you regard that use of language as bad manners! Sadly telling onlookers!DrBot
August 18, 2011
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Further point: I forgot to note, above that if we for instance come across a car or a computer or a copy of Libre Office, we do not infer to "human" but to skilled, knowledgeable intelligent designer. Embodiment in a human body plainly does not define the matter. Indeed, I have said several times here at UD that if we are credibly designed intelligences ourselves per the testimony of our cells, I see no reason why we cannot in turn be such designers of intelligences, once we crack the techniques. So, I have repeatedly spoken in terms of R Daneel Olivaw, of Asimov's series. I take the Derek Smith two-tier controller model seriously, and see no reason why we should not be able to create a software supervisory controller that would to at least a significant degree be artificially intelligent. Such may well not be conscious [though I suspect sophisticated control looping, projective, proprioception and memory techniques may well give a passable imitation of that], but it might be intelligent enough to be creative.kairosfocus
August 18, 2011
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In addition, Dr BOT, your resort to a turnabout and manifestly false, mocking dismissal, is duly noted as a further regrettable descent on tone.kairosfocus
August 18, 2011
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Dr BOT: Humans are instances of intelligent beings. We have no reason to infer that such intelligence is limited to or exhausted by human beings [a beaver dam or the behaviour of a dolphin or an elephant or some birds points to their having limited intelligence and design capacity too, for instance . . . ], and indeed the very evidence of codes and programming in life itself not to mention the signs of functionally specific and complex organisation of the cosmos point towards intelligence beyond humanity. So, I am entirely correct to highlight that the only known source of FSCI is intelligence, and leave open the possibility of intelligence beyond humans. Going beyond that, it is a longstanding fact of life that many serious thinkers have pointed to the possibility of intelligence beyond humanity, indeed, as foundational to the cosmos. That is a major issue, with significant evidence in its favour at worldviews level. So we should not beg questions by locking out intelligence beyond humanity. I'd say your friendly local beaver, or dolphin etc may also have a few choice things to say on that! So, the properly scientific approach is to observe, identify, rest and respect the reliable signs of intelligence, and then let the signs speak for themselves where they appear. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 18, 2011
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Yes, I know you are discussing a search space scope challenge, kf. IMO, it is the only valid approach.Elizabeth Liddle
August 18, 2011
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KF: THE ONLY KNOWN, OBSERVED SOURCE OF FSCI, ROUTINELY, IS HUMANS. You have been corrected on this many times yet you willfully persist with the drumbeat repetition of patent falsehoods. We observe intelligent behavior in other animals, but no generation of FSCI. It only crops up with humans, so perhaps this consistent observation ought to infer that FSCI generation is unique to humans rather than an expected outcome of intelligence.DrBot
August 18, 2011
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Dr Liddle: I am discussing the implications of extremely small samples, relatively speaking of large configuration spaces of possibilities. Such samples, as long as they are not intelligently directed targetted searches based on a knowledge of the structure of the overall space, are overwhelmingly likely to be representative of the bulk of the population of configs, not the isolated narrow zones that are specially and separately describable. In short, if you have a 1 light month across cubical hay bale, and under relevant circumstances take a one-straw sized sample, you are overwhelmingly likely to pick up straw, even if a solar system is hiding in there. That is the sample to population ratio for 10^102 PTQS's for our solar system's 10^57 atoms since the beginnings of the universe to the 10^150 or so states for 500 bits, from 000 . . . 0 to 111 . . . 1. That is why trial at random and error/success is not going to work as a search strategy for even modest information spaces. So, once for the solar system, we have narrow zones of interest T in very large W's beyond 500 bits, chance driven searches are not reasonable to explain instances of FSCI. Similarly, if we expand the scope to cosmos as a whole, 1,000 bits is overwhelming relative to the PTQS resources of our observed cosmos. In that case the ratio is much worse: 10^150:1. And if you look carefully, you will see that I am not relying on probability or estimates thereof but on the brute force -- Dembski's finesse is right it takes 10^30 - 10^40+ PTQSs to carry out the fastest reactions or a typical enzyme enabled reaction . . . ) but it is being lost in distractive talking points -- of drowning out the resources of a given gamut of reasonable search. That is why my scope of search for 500 bits is the solar system, and it is why I take time to point out that our solar system is our effective universe for atomic interactions. If you want to make an anywhere in our observed cosmos argument, just move up to 1,000 bits, so the 500 bit discussion is without loss of generality, as there is little practical difference between 72 or 143 ASCII characters worth of prescriptive, functionally specific information. If you want to swamp out the observed cosmos and shift to appeals to the imagined multiverse, you have changed the subject from physics to philosophy. In philosophy the full panoply of worldview issues and worldview warranting evidence and argument obtain, on comparative difficulties. Evolutionary materialism does not fare so well on such. And if you want to cloak your philosophical speculation by wearing a Lewontinian lab coat, dismissing others from the table of comparative difficulties -- and we saw a case here just a few days ago -- you are resorting to worldview level question-begging and censorship. The notion that all discussions about CSI etc hinge on probability calculations that can then be derided through suitably hyperskeptical talking points, is a fallacy. The eis a search challenge version of such arguments that is independent of any particular probability estimate, relying on ending up in a tiny sample of the haystack, hope to catch a needle challenge. Such a sample, unless intelligently and specifically directed, will by the valid version of the layman's law of averages, by overwhelming likelihood, will pick up the typical, not the atypical. And that was demonstrably --NFL, pp. 144, 148 -- Dembski's underlying analysis, over the past decade. The dismissive argument has been based on red herrings led out to strawmen, too often laced with ad hominems and ignited through incendiary rhetoric. The better to poison and polarise the atmosphere, confusing, distracting and alienating participants, and distorting ability to hear and understand what would otherwise be simple and clear, so that the ability to think clearly is compromised. A set of tactics that I am all too familiar with, and which -- having seen how they led my homeland to bloody ruin by economic collapse and civil war 30 years ago -- I deplore. I doubt that the likes of the Anti Evo denizens who seem to love such tactics, understand the matches they are playing with. Here is the apostle James' inspired warning:
james 3:1NOT MANY [of you] should become teachers ([a]self-constituted censors and reprovers of others), my brethren, for you know that we [teachers] will be judged by a higher standard and with greater severity [than other people; thus we assume the greater accountability and the more condemnation]. 2For we all often stumble and fall and offend in many things. And if anyone does not offend in speech [never says the wrong things], he is a fully developed character and a perfect man, able to control his whole body and to curb his entire nature. 3If we set bits in the horses' mouths to make them obey us, we can turn their whole bodies about. 4Likewise, look at the ships: though they are so great and are driven by rough winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the impulse of the helmsman determines. 5Even so the tongue is a little member, and it can boast of great things. See how much wood or how great a forest a tiny spark can set ablaze! 6And the tongue is a fire. [The tongue is a] world of wickedness set among our members, contaminating and depraving the whole body and setting on fire the wheel of birth (the cycle of man's nature), being itself ignited by hell (Gehenna). 7For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea animal, can be tamed and has been tamed by human genius (nature). 8But the human tongue can be tamed by no man. It is a restless (undisciplined, irreconcilable) evil, full of deadly poison. 9With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse men who were made in God's likeness! 10Out of the same mouth come forth blessing and cursing. These things, my brethren, ought not to be so. 11Does a fountain send forth [simultaneously] from the same opening fresh water and bitter? 12Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine figs? Neither can a salt spring furnish fresh water. 13Who is there among you who is wise and intelligent? Then let him by his noble living show forth his [good] works with the [unobtrusive] humility [which is the proper attribute] of true wisdom. 14But if you have bitter jealousy (envy) and contention (rivalry, selfish ambition) in your hearts, do not pride yourselves on it and thus be in defiance of and false to the Truth. 15This [superficial] wisdom is not such as comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual (animal), even devilish (demoniacal). 16For wherever there is jealousy (envy) and contention (rivalry and selfish ambition), there will also be confusion (unrest, disharmony, rebellion) and all sorts of evil and vile practices. 17But the wisdom from above is first of all pure (undefiled); then it is peace-loving, courteous (considerate, gentle). [It is willing to] yield to reason, full of compassion and good fruits; it is wholehearted and straightforward, impartial and unfeigned (free from doubts, wavering, and insincerity). 18And the harvest of righteousness (of conformity to God's will in thought and deed) is [the fruit of the seed] sown in peace by those who work for and make peace [in themselves and in others, that peace which means concord, agreement, and harmony between individuals, with undisturbedness, in a peaceful mind free from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts]. [AMP]
Just think about how, after months you have not seen that I am NOT making a probability calculation, but am discussing a search space scope challenge. That is where I have been for years and years. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 17, 2011
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Well, as I think I've said, kf, your point about "islands of function" is a potentially valid one. But I don't understand why you say you aren't making a probability argument. Anything involving the EF or CSI or the UPB is a probability argument. Isn't it?Elizabeth Liddle
August 17, 2011
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Dr Liddle There are a lot more than mere gaps in our knowledge that have to be faced. The issue of the difficulty of moving from dilute solutions of hard to form monomers in ponds, to endothermic informational polymers organised into functioning automata is hard. That from the first such to complex body plans is yet harder informationally, and the fossil record bears that out as does the population genetics. THE ONLY KNOWN, OBSERVED SOURCE OF FSCI, ROUTINELY, IS INTELLIGENCE. The issue is what we do know, not what we don't. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 17, 2011
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Dr Liddle: I am making a search resources vs search space discussion, which has been at the heart of modern design thought for the past decade and more. Have you noticed the discussion of taking a one straw sized sample from a cubical hay bale 1 light month across, and what sort of result is likely form that, on search resource vs being able to get a typical vs an atypical observation from such a sample? Did you note the remarks on the valid form of the layman's law of averages, in response to the Bayesian arguments above? I am NOT making a probability argument. And yet, that is what you thought you saw. (And in another thread, by demanding that I try to calculate the probability for the Grand Canyon forming, that is what a certain Dr Matzke thinks he sees too.) That is a measure of how off track the "strawman" accusation above is. Please, think again. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 17, 2011
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Dr Liddle: At this point, I think I will rest my case with the astute onlooker, who will be able to see for him or her self what is going on. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 17, 2011
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too=two, duh.Elizabeth Liddle
August 17, 2011
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