Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Lemonade Out of Lemon? Probably Not.

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I commend to our readers Casey Luskin’s excellent If Evolution Has Implications for Religion, Can We Justify Teaching It in Public Schools? Mr. Luskin answers his question as follows:

one can legally justify teaching evolution while being sensitive to the fact that it has larger implications that touch upon the religious beliefs of many Americans. This reasoning offers the best of both worlds. It allows science to be taught in the science classroom while respecting the beliefs of people who have religious objections to evolution. Many evolutionists, however, would probably dislike this way of thinking. Why? Because the very same approach would justify teaching about intelligent design in public schools.

Casey is obviously correct as a matter of simple logic and fairness. Sadly, however, simple logic and fairness are secondary considerations when it comes to the Supreme Court’s Establishment Clause jurisprudence. Over 25 years of practice in constitutional law has led me to the conclusion that the so-called “Lemon test” Casey discusses in his post is not “law” in the sense of a pre-established rule to guide conduct. Rather, it is a platform from which judges impose their preferred outcomes in particular cases. In almost every case a judge can reason from Lemon to diametrically opposed outcomes with equal alacrity. And because most federal judges are members of the secular chattering class, as a practical matter Lemon’s almost limitless interpretive flexibility means that cases are decided in a way consonant with secular sensibilities.

Comments
Robert Byers: In fact its illegal to ban creationism in subjects dealing with truth for it means the state is saying ITS NOT TRUE what is banned. Creationism is not banned in history, philosophy or theology. However, it is not appropriate for a science class.Zachriel
June 10, 2015
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The prohibition of creationism in science class is not about science. Its about banning it based on a claim its religious. In fact its illegal to ban creationism in subjects dealing with truth for it means the state is saying ITS NOT TRUE what is banned. Thus breaking the very law it invokes for the censorship. Take them court folks and public opinion court because the present court is bad.Robert Byers
June 9, 2015
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Mung
Science class is for whatever the ruling elite say it’s for.
That's more true than it might seem ... - Zachriel has no authority to speak for 'the science community'. Does anyone? Who owns the term 'science'? - ID is science - it's the best science. That cannot be proven wrong without an appeal to the ruling elite, and even there it's merely an opinion.Silver Asiatic
June 9, 2015
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Zachriel: Science class is for science. Science class is for whatever the ruling elite say it's for.Mung
June 9, 2015
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Robert Byers: Its indoctrination against certain religious doctrines, if they are saying those are religious doctrines, by banning them as options in subjects dealing with truth. Science class is for science. Robert Byers: Also I say the constitution neverr had anything to do with education. its a stretch made to say the state is everything the state pays for. Many state constitutions have education written right into them. Robert Byers: there is no constitutional law , in anyway, against creationism. http://ncse.com/taking-action/ten-major-court-cases-evolution-creationismZachriel
June 9, 2015
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Zachriel Thats my point. Its indoctrination against certain religious doctrines, if they are saying those are religious doctrines, by banning them as options in subjects dealing with truth. Also I say the constitution neverr had anything to do with education. its a stretch made to say the state is everything the state pays for. The schools are free to teach the truth or to let the people decide what they teach. there is no constitutional law , in anyway, against creationism. Its an error and the good guys should take them all to court and public opinion.Robert Byers
June 8, 2015
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Robert Byers: Its still taking the peoples right to decide. Surely you're not advocating an ochlocracy, which inevitably degenerates into oligarchy or monarchy. Robert Byers: YES they also consented to fixed laws called the constitution. YET they can insist they didn’t consent to this or that loss of democracy on some matter. As the U.S. Constitution doesn't allow religion indoctrination in compulsory public education, the most direct course would be to amend the constitution.Zachriel
June 8, 2015
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Zachriel Its still taking the peoples right to decide. The right to decide is the essence and great consent of the people. YES they also consented to fixed laws called the constitution. YET they can insist they didn't consent to this or that loss of democracy on some matter. Its not just wrong interpretation. The court is denying the essence of a free people. The court is going a extra step in denying the people right to rule themselves. The court is to uphold the consents. They are not doing so if they use the constitution for democracy denial. I have been reading Locke lately. The jusges must be fired and not merely disagreed with. They are very much denying the people the freedom to govern themselves.Robert Byers
June 7, 2015
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Robert Byer: Remember the court is taking away the peoples right to decide. "We the people" adopted a constitution, which constitutes the preeminent law. The Courts have to duty to uphold the constitution. You just disagree with their interpretation. Under common law systems, such as the U.S., issues are only litigated once. However, it is possible for a court to reverse itself. In Planned Parenthood v. Casey, they state four factors beyond simple disagreement with the previous ruling; unworkability of the rule, how reliant the public is on the rule, a change in legal doctrine, and changes in facts.Zachriel
June 7, 2015
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Zachriel Its special in this matter. Anyways novel arguements are easily to be made on this matter. Remember the court is taking away the peoples right to decide. Its saying NO DEMOCRACY in this matter. So it has a greater moral and intellectual position to defend against sustained public outcry. There is no finality on this at all. Nothing is settled. its poor judging and beyond the pale of normal error. its a attempt to attacj the truth, Christianity, and the constitution as written/consented by the American people and that held for centuries. This is a case to be done again. Its even obvious the censorship is illegal. First a campaign to the public and then to the courts. The present court is bad but the public outcry can sway things until better judges are got.Robert Byers
June 6, 2015
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Robert Byers: Then to court should the good guys go. In common law systems, courts generally won't hear already litigated issues. You have to show either the situation is different somehow or that you have a novel argument; otherwise there'd never be any finality. If someone sued you and lost, they'd just sue you again and again.Zachriel
June 6, 2015
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Zachriel. Then to court should the good guys go. As i said. any court decision os wrong that enforces state interference with religious belief. your list fits fine. there is no problem here with overthrowing the censorship of creationism. Imposing a state opinion that God/Genesis is not a option for origins in subjects dealing with accuracy in origins MEANS the state has declared certain doctrines in religion as wrong. SO breaking the separation concept. the very concept used to ban creationism. where is my logic wrong? the courts have been demib/bad wrong on this matter in the few times it came up since ww11. Suspicious that censorspip is only used against God/genesis. its impossible to tweek out of the constitution any censorship of Christian etc beliefs in subjects dealing with those beliefs. its just a cheap trick. anyways the state is not everything the state pays for. a aggressive campaign should be made by iD/YEC on this matter for a demand that the law be obeyed.Robert Byers
June 5, 2015
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All of this verbiage is proving that taxpayer-funded education is incompatible with the principles that underlie a free society. If we teach in the public schools that God did it, we are forcing those who do not believe this to subsidize (via their tax dollars) the spread of an idea they oppose. Likewise, if we teach "God didn't do it," then we commit the same wrong against a separate group of people. "But my side is right!" some will plead. To which I say, "If you're so right, why do you need the government to push your viewpoint? Have you no confidence that simply being right gives you all of the advantage you require?"EvilSnack
June 5, 2015
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sean samis: Your logic is, as my Russian friends would say, "spot on but completely backwards." You are the one claiming that a process that has never been observed is likely to have happened. You have the burden of supplying some reasonable evidence for this claim. We have a pretty good sense as to what would be, at a minimum, required for abiogenesis. It has been discussed in detail in numerous papers, books, here on this blog and elsewhere. Yes, there may be (I would say there certainly are) additional requirements beyond those that abiogenesis researchers have outlined, but that only makes your story less likely, not mine. And that is the trajectory the evidence has taken ever since Watson and Crick -- new understanding has only made the abiogenesis story less likely at every turn. The evidence is clearly not on the side of naturalistic abiogenesis. It is for this reason that many researchers, people who actually work in the area and recognize the issues, have posited various things to try to get around the problems with abiogenesis -- panspermia and the multiverse being the most common ideas (neither of which helps, however). More fundamentally, your logic is flawed. You cannot put forth some wild idea like abiogenesis and then claim that (a) because no-one knows how your wild idea could have happened (you of course having not offered any details), that (b) no-one can refute your wild idea because they don't know the details of your wild idea (again, remember, because you haven't offered any details). Then you follow it up with a demand that anyone who want to refute your wild idea has to themselves provide the details of your idea (you, again, having not offered any). This is not a good faith effort to follow the evidence; it is not logical; it is nothing more than rhetorical gamesmanship. Feel free, though, to propose with some detail a process of abiogenesis that has any reasonable chance to work in the real world, and then we can critique your idea. Until then, your assertion that abiogenesis is likely is nothing more than a bald assertion -- an assertion that flies in the face of decades of intense research and concerted effort and an assertion that has the added weakness that (a) such a thing as abiogenesis has never been known to happen naturally in the real world, and (b) no-one, ever, at any time has been able to demonstrate anything that even comes close to abiogenesis, nor to even propose a rational hypothesis that passes the laugh test. If you want to look into the issues with abiogenesis I would encourage it. It is an incredibly fascinating and sobering topic. Start by looking at some of the posts over the last year or so on this website (search for abiogenesis). Meyer's Signature in the Cell is a good book; others are legion. BA77 can provide a whole host of additional books, papers, articles documenting the insurmountable hurdles in the materialistic abiogenesis paradigm.Eric Anderson
June 5, 2015
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Mung: I do not know that X is impossible, therefore X is possible. Really? So it’s our own ignorance that makes things possible. Excellent point. The correct construction is "If we don't know that X is impossible, X may be possible." Robert Byers: Take them to court. It's already been to court. The "Lemon test" is a judicial rule.
1. The statute must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religious affairs. (also known as the Entanglement Prong)
Factors. a. Character and purpose of institution benefited. b. Nature of aid the state provides. c. Resulting relationship between government and religious authority.
2. The statute must not advance nor inhibit religious practice (also known as the Effect Prong) 3. The statute must have a secular legislative purpose. (also known as the Purpose Prong)
If any of these three prongs are violated, the government's action is deemed unconstitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.Zachriel
June 5, 2015
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Who write or rather gave the constitution its authority? The people by their delegates! What was it they agreed to in the constitution regarding what is taught in schools? Nothing! It never was on their mind! Its just a stretch since WW11 to say the schools are the government because of the gov paying for the,. In reality schools are unrelated to the state. The schools can be ruled by the people . The people are free to determine the courses in schools. Even if the the people did want to prohibit certain subjects in schools its impossible that such a protestant people would censor god and genesis. Therefore its not in the constitution but another myth. Therefore its impossible to read such a ban in it. Therefore any state ban on creationism/design etc based on state/church separation concept means , as Luskin said in effect, that any teaching against creationisn/design is also state interference with religion. iN fact the ban itself is BECAUSE the subjects are about the truth in origins. Banning a option for truth is a state opinion its not true. You got'im. Take them to court.Robert Byers
June 4, 2015
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I do not know that X is impossible, therefore X is possible. Really? So it's our own ignorance that makes things possible. Amazing.Mung
June 4, 2015
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That seems contradictory. It would be fair to say that no one knows HOW abiogenesis could happen, but unless you affirmatively know something is impossible, you know it’s possible. “Possible” does not mean “it happens” but “we don’t know why it cannot happen.” That’s what ‘possibility’ means.
Interesting! By your logic then, since you don't affirmatively know that design is impossible, it IS possible, right? It is also possible that life on Earth is designed without the requisite of the designer being a god, right? Remember, this was the original argument where I began my objection:
Evolution is science, ID is religion (as much as IDers want to deny that). If the ID ain’t a deity, then it’s an oxymoron.
But again you say:
...but unless you affirmatively know something is impossible, you know it’s possible.
So, then it is possible to have designed life from un-designed life. This was my point that disassociates ID from religion. You agree and prove my original point(!!!)again by saying:
Given the hypo, this life is designed.
You then begin to equivocate by saying:
If they look for abiogenesis, they will learn much about the development of life, and they may even conclude they cannot be abiogenic.
Remember we weren't philosophically arguing what was better for a society to believe. You stated that the designer in ID must be a god, which you then admitted isn't true and started arguing against various other things. You've shown that your devotion to materialism is dogmatic in nature.
This appears to be a claim to know something: you claim that we know that terrestrial abiogenesis is certainly impossible.
Given current data and observations, it is so improbable that it is reasonable to assume life on Earth is not the the result of abiogenesis. This infinitesimal probability is why the vacuous materialists made up their multiverse sci-fi. There may be some grand discovery in the future this may change. But every day we can observe life come from life. Are there published works I'm unaware of that have observed inorganic material spring to life and begin self-replication?
So my claim that ID is based on an argument from ignorance is validated. You deny any knowledge of whether abiogenesis could ever happen, you deny even knowing whether it is remotely possible. You don’t know what the earliest life form on earth was.
Two issues here. You are making a straw man. When did we shift to the merits of ID as a whole? We were debating a very specific idea, remember? @4
Nah. Evolution is science, ID is religion (as much as IDers want to deny that). If the ID ain’t a deity, then it’s an oxymoron.
Further, an argument from ignorance is defined as, "I don't know why X, therefore Y." It is a specific fallacy. ID doesn't proclaim that. ID states that life expresses traits that cannot be explained by natural processes. It then states the only other observation of these traits is in artifacts from intelligent agents. That is NOT an argument from ignorance. Even if it is proven wrong, it is not an argument from ignorance. It is just wrong. If an archaeologist comes across a unique clay pot with symbols painted on it in a section of desert that is never known to house any civilizations, is it an argument from ignorance to assume it is a created work? If the archaeologist reasons that because a clay pot has never been observed to form from wind, rain, and other natural processes, and then have paint applied on it in a specific way, and that this clay pot is a created work, is that an argument from ignorance? Why/why not? The last bit equates to, "even if life is designed it is better to assume it isn't. So you could be right, but I don't wanna accept it." @46 Cabal I've only seen life come from life. Have you ever seen inorganic material come to life? If not, why should one assume it does? The evidence you ask for happens every day. Life comes from life.TSErik
June 4, 2015
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Barry Arrington: The 14th Amendment on its face provides for federal power to remedy the wrongs that were perpetrated in that case. See section 5. The Supreme Court in that case ruled otherwise, that the federal government couldn't enforce the First Amendment right to peaceably assemble, among other rights. They stated, the First Amendment "was not intended to limit the powers of the State governments in respect to their own citizens, but to operate upon the National Government alone," thus "for their protection in its enjoyment ... the people must look to the States." There is no doubt that this is not a result that was intended by the Radical Republicans who crafted the Fourteenth Amendment. They clearly intended to protect the rights of blacks in the South, and that the oppressed shouldn't have to look to their oppressors for their protection. By ignoring the plain intent of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Court allowed generations of blacks to suffer under a punishing racist regime.Zachriel
June 4, 2015
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Z @ 53. False. The 14th Amendment on its face provides for federal power to remedy the wrongs that were perpetrated in that case. See section 5. There was not and is not any need to subvert the constitution to reach a just result.Barry Arrington
June 4, 2015
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Barry Arrington: That is absurd. As we already pointed out, your interpretation of the Constitution led to the absurd and pernicious result in United States v. Cruikshank, which signaled the re-oppression of blacks, which didn't end until the federal government intervened generations later.Zachriel
June 4, 2015
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Sean,
Please tell us what these “incredibly strict requirements” are and how anyone knows them given that no one’s ever actually observed the process.
Are you being facetious? Or are you seriously unaware of the literature in which OOL researchers have laid out the probable requirements of a first self-replicator? If the latter, please confirm and we will instruct you.Barry Arrington
June 4, 2015
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Sean,
This is pointless.
Of course it is not pointless. You say the incorporation doctrine is supported by the text of the due process clause. Here is your opportunity to demonstrate that. That is, after all, the point of our discussion. That you don’t even attempt to do so is quite telling. I will accept that as a tacit concession that it is impossible to do so.
The Court and a host of scholars say it does.
Yes, those who grab power illegitimately and those who support them (such as yourself) almost always say the are acting legitimately. After all, the court is never going to release an opinion saying "we know the text of the constitution does not support our decision but we are going to do it anyway." Though I have to admit that Douglas’ emanations from the penumbra came very close.
So complain away. Outrage seems your preferred emotion.
Attack me instead of my argument. OK. I will accept that as a second concession that you’ve got nothing.Barry Arrington
June 4, 2015
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Eric, Regarding “a complete lack of understanding of what is required for abiogensis,” and “given the incredibly strict requirements for something like abiogenesis.” So you claim to know the requirements for a process you probably claim has never even been observed? How remarkable. Please tell us what these “incredibly strict requirements” are and how anyone knows them given that no one’s ever actually observed the process. sean s.sean samis
June 4, 2015
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sean samis @21:
My position is that abiogenesis is possible, and that the Earth is not special, so it is possible that it happened here. That is a factual claim crying out for evidence.
That is my favorite quote from the whole thread. (1) a complete lack of understanding of what is required for abiogensis, coupled with (2) an assertion that the Earth is not special, in spite of evidence to the contrary,* all wrapped up with (3) an assertion that it is a fact; now we just need some evidence for the fact. Remarkable. ----- * Whether Earth is "special" or not is much less critical than the question of abiogenesis generally. But it is still relevant, given the incredibly strict requirements for something like abiogenesis.Eric Anderson
June 4, 2015
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Barry, @45; This is pointless. We will never agree because we are talking past each other. I’m just saying how it is. You are lecturing about how you want it to be. You think the Courts are doing it wrongly. OK. You say Incorporation doctrine has no support in the text. The Court and a host of scholars say it does. Their numbers don’t make them right. Your passion doesn’t make you right. So complain away. Outrage seems your preferred emotion. Otherwise, I don’t see the point. sean s.sean samis
June 4, 2015
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TSErik @42 wrote; “I’m not agreeing AT ALL that abiogenesis is possible. I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m saying that we don’t know, ...” That seems contradictory. It would be fair to say that no one knows HOW abiogenesis could happen, but unless you affirmatively know something is impossible, you know it’s possible. “Possible” does not mean “it happens” but “we don’t know why it cannot happen.” That’s what ‘possibility’ means. So regarding abiogenesis, you don’t know if it’s possible; ID doesn’t know if it’s possible. Neither do you know if it’s impossible. Odd, but OK. “but through analysis of life on Earth it is impossible for Earthly life to arise from abiogenesis.” This appears to be a claim to know something: you claim that we know that terrestrial abiogenesis is certainly impossible. You say that you know terrestrial abiogenesis is impossible because of our “analysis of life on Earth”. This is not true because the life we observe today is not the original life on the planet; we know of many species going extinct before man existed, and that there are many species that we don’t know about that probably went extinct. And we know the environment has changed radically since the Earth formed. We know that we can’t count on finding the original terrestrial life still with us. We know nothing about whatever was the first living thing on Earth, much less do we know that it could not have been abiogenic. We have never observed the earliest life form on Earth, we have never sequenced its genome. Of it we know Nothing. And without that knowledge, we cannot exclude terrestrial abiogenesis. So we know that we can’t know whether terrestrial abiogenesis happened or not. So my claim that ID is based on an argument from ignorance is validated. You deny any knowledge of whether abiogenesis could ever happen, you deny even knowing whether it is remotely possible. You don’t know what the earliest life form on earth was. What do you know? Please provide the data. I wrote that “In ID, the designer must be a deity unless a “smoking gun” from a designer is found.” You asked why. Because without a “smoking gun” the whole ID effort is a fail. Remember that a “smoking gun” is any evidence that we must have an ID. If no “smoking gun” is ever found, then ID will be left with only deistic explanations. In summary, as an IDer you say you know nothing except for something you cannot possibly know. You deny that the ID must be a deity but you don’t know how it could be anything else. Your whole “theory” is built on a plea of ignorance for things you need to know and a claim to know things you can’t demonstrate you know. @43 you posed a hypothetical.
Let’s accept the premise that humans are the result of materialist abiogenesis. If in the future humans specially engineered unique life to be seeded on a barren planet, how is that life categorized?
Given the hypo, this life is designed. If it evolves to the point of asking itself if it’s abiogenic or designed, which should it assume? Ockham’s Rule applies. Unless there is evidence to the contrary, any rational being should assume they are abiogenic. It’s the simplest, and the fastest path to discovering the truth. If they look for abiogenesis, they will learn much about the development of life, and they may even conclude they cannot be abiogenic. If they assume they are designed, they will not have as strong a reason to look for abiogenesis (which the hypo stipulates occurs). Their learning will be hampered. And if they actually were abiogenic, assuming design would delay their discovery of the truth. Either way, assuming they are abiogenic is the fastest path to the truth. Stepping out of the hypo, since there is no evidence of our design, we rationally must assume we are abiogenic. This is already driving our studies of life’s development, we are learning much. We may eventually discover we are designed, but only after learning much about biology. And of course, we might be able to prove we are abiogenic. After all, there’s no evidence that we are designed. And assuming we are abiogenic is the fastest path to the truth even if we are designed. And given that lack of evidence, any designer of ours clearly did not care if we knew we were designed; it’s not important to them that we think we’re designed. sean s.sean samis
June 4, 2015
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TSErik said D through analysis of life on Earth it is impossible for Earthly life to arise from abiogenesis. Care to quote some references to the resarch having determined that? With evidence of the nature that you conclusively may write off natural causes for the appearance of the first life on Earth, I presume you can point to the relevant research? Although I am more concerned with the fact that the cause or source of the first life is irrevlevant for the hypothesis put forth by Darwin & Wallace - that Natural Selection is the machanism responsible for the origins of the species, after the first primitive species arrived on the planet regardless of where they cam from, who or what brought them here and so on. A hypothesis that to this day has remained at the core of evolutionary theory, although the theory has evolved to levels making them rotate in their graves by now. BTW, AFAIK even Behe thinks Natural Selection is a fact, he just don't think NS alone can account for all evolution: sometimes intervention by a "designer" is required to move evolution forward, as in the case of bacterial flagella. Althoug ID suffers from lack of facts regarding the existence and work of a designer, his R&D facilities and so on.Cabal
June 4, 2015
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Sean,
Neither Zachriel nor I are trying to strip the text of meaning, we just want it to mean what it says.
That is absurd. As you observed, the court used the Due Process clause of the 14th Amendment to do its dirty work regarding the incorporation doctrine. The text of that clause is:
[N]or shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law
With the incorporation doctrine the court says the text of that clause means: “Notwithstanding the fact that on its face this clause is merely a guaranty of procedural fairness, the substantive provisions of the first eight amendments to this Constitution are hereby made applicable to the states, except the provisions thereof that we don’t want to make applicable to the states, like that pesky right to jury trials in civil cases and that bothersome grand jury provision.” You don’t seriously expect anyone to believe that the text of the Due Process Clause supports the interpretation hung on it by the incorporation doctrine. No one does, as evidenced by the fact that during the 57 years between 1868 (when the 14th Amendment was adopted) and 1925 (when the 1st Amendment was first applied to the states), no one dreamed that the text meant what the Supreme Court says it means.
That’s a textualist position. If you are a textualist, then the Incorporation Doctrine should not trouble you too much.
Unless one believes the Constitution is a text and that that text has meaning and that the meaning of the text binds those who interpret the text. In that case the incorporation doctrine is a perverse monstrosity that does great violence to the text, as it is not supported by the text, structure or history of the document. That you should say that a textualist would be satisfied with the incorporation doctrine means you don’t understand what a textualist is or you don’t understand the incorporation doctrine (or both).
Barry: “But just now you said the text of the Constitution is irrelevant. Please make up your mind.” Sean: “Straw man, and a lame one to boot.”
Let’s examine that. You support the incorporation doctrine, which does not have the slightest support in the text of the Constitution. You are saying, essentially, “it does not matter what the text of the Due Process Clause actually says; if we can get away with saying it means something it clearly does not mean, let’s do it.” And the essence of that position is that the text of the document is irrelevant. So the first part of my statement stands. Then you turn right around and say the Constitution says thus and so about the judiciary and we ought to respect that text. So, yep, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Before the Incorporation Doctrine, religious liberty at the State level was not a right but merely a privilege States could grant or revoke as they wanted.
This statement betrays a woeful lack of understanding of the nation’s history. Yes, at one time there were official state religions. But by 1925 every single state constitution guaranteed freedom of religion. The issue is not whether there was religious liberty. There was; every state constitution guaranteed it. The issue is at what level those liberties are protected. The grasping nine on the Supreme Court decided they could not a better job and arrogated the power to themselves. And we have the mess that is Lemon to show for it.
SCOTUS is a republican institution created by the Constitution
Nonsense. SCOTUS is the single non-republican institution created by the Constititon. Perhaps you don’t understand what “republican” means. Hint: It is not “rule by a committee of nine unelected, life-tenured, unaccountable lawyers.”
so the Constitution is not what it is?
No, the Constitution is what it is. It is not what the Supreme Court says it is when it acts illegitimately, as even the Supreme Court itself acknowledges from time to time when it overrules prior constitutional cases.Barry Arrington
June 4, 2015
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Looking at this map, I guessing the kids in the States of AZ, FL, IN, LA, OH, TN, and TX have the most well rounded Science Education. Good on those States:) http://io9.com/a-map-showing-which-u-s-public-schools-teach-creationi-1515717148ppolish
June 4, 2015
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