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Larry Moran needs to do some more reading

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I had intended to write a post on whales as products of Intelligent Design. But the whales will have to wait. In the space of just three hours, Professor Larry Moran has put up two remarkably silly posts. And in both cases, Professor Moran could have spared himself the embarrassment if he had done just a little more reading.

The first post, titled, Can theology produce true knowledge?, critiques Dr. Denis Alexander’s claim that there are other, equally valid, ways of knowing besides science. Professor Moran thinks this is flawed on three counts: first, natural theology is question-begging because “you have to assume the existence of a creator god before you would even think of interpreting the natural world as the produce of his creative mind”; second, “faith cannot be falsified as easily as scientific hypotheses and models,” since alleged falsifications can easily be rationalized away by reinterpreting the Bible in a metaphorical sense, and in any case, “much of what’s written in the Bible has been falsified” (especially with regard to human origins); and thirdly, religious experience does not count as a legitimate way of knowing, owing to the human capacity for self-delusion: you have to “prove to an outside observer that you are not deluded,” and the only way to do that is to “provide evidence that your god is real and that’s the scientific way of knowing.” Professor Moran concludes that Dr. Alexander has failed to make a case for “the ability of theology to produce true knowledge.” After this devastating triple refutation, Moran gleefully chortles:

Strike three.

You’re out, Dr. Alexander. This is a baseball analogy… You have lost your wicket. You are dismissed.

Perhaps someone should tell Professor Moran that there are no wickets in the game of baseball, and that the image which he has attached to the end of his post is not one of a batter being struck out in the game of baseball, but of a batsman being bowled out in the game of cricket.

This is what a strikeout looks like, Professor Moran:

(In the photo above, taken in 2006, Cincinnati Reds outfielder Adam Dunn strikes out swinging to Atlanta Braves pitcher John Smoltz. Braves’ catcher Brian McCann catches the pitch behind the plate. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.)

Why Professor Moran’s three strikes fail miserably

Let’s return to Professor Moran’s “three strikes” against Dr. Denis Alexander. What about Moran’s first strike: his claim that natural theology is question-begging, because it begins with the assumption that God exists? That would be news to St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274), the foremost theologian of the Catholic Church, who begins his article, Whether God exists? (Summa Theologica I, q.2, art.3) by marshaling two arguments against God’s existence – the argument from evil and Occam’s razor – before proceeding to argue that “the existence of God can be proved in five ways.” Don’t believe me? Go on, have a look:

Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word “God” means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.

Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God’s existence.

You can’t get a fairer statement of the case for atheism than that.

Now, I’m sure Professor Moran will respond that he doesn’t find Aquinas’ Five Ways convincing – although he really should peruse Ed Feser’s short and highly readable book, Aquinas: A Beginner’s Guide (Oneworld Publications, paperback, 2009) before venturing an opinion on the subject. Be that as it may, Moran is manifestly wrong in asserting that natural theology assumes the existence of God. It doesn’t: Aquinas’ Five Ways, for instance, merely assume the existence of change, causation, contingent states of affairs, grades of perfection, and things that tend to produce certain characteristic effects. (And in case Moran is interested, there are cogent contemporary arguments for God’s existence – see here, here and here.)

I think any fair-minded umpire would rule against Moran’s strike one, calling it a foul instead.

What of Moran’s second strike: that faith isn’t falsifiable in the same way as science is, because statements in the Bible which are contradicted by scientific discoveries can always be reinterpreted metaphorically? Wrong on two counts. First, Moran is assuming that Christianity is tied to the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. It isn’t. You could believe in all of the doctrines of the Apostles’ Creed – and the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds as well, which are much more explicit about the Trinity – without believing in the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy. That was C.S. Lewis’s position, for instance.

What, then, is Christianity tied to? The most logical way to define Christianity is to look at the credal statements drawn up by the early Christians themselves – notably, the Apostles’ Creed, which, in its Old Roman form, is probably the oldest known statement of the Christian faith, dating back to before 200 A.D.. What the creed affirms is the following: that God created the universe (“heaven and earth”); that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, named Mary; that He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, rose again on the third day, and ascended to be with His Heavenly Father; that He will return to judge the living and the dead; that in addition to the Father and the Son, there is a Holy Spirit; that there is a communion of saints in Heaven as well as a holy catholic church on earth; that sins can be forgiven; and that there will one day be a resurrection of the dead to everlasting life. Some of these statements are obviously falsifiable: if it turned out, for instance, that the universe had no beginning (and hence no Creator), or that the doctrine of the Virgin birth was a second-century addition to the Christian faith; or that no individual named Jesus of Nazareth, professing to be a king, was ever crucified under Pontius Pilate; or that such an individual was crucified, but his body was dug up next week by archaeologists in Palestine, then it would be curtains for Christianity. The early Christian Fathers thought likewise, which is why they went to such lengths to refute attacks on their faith by skeptics. And herein lies Moran’s second error: when he suggests that Christianity is immune to falsification because its teachings can always be reinterpreted metaphorically, he never asks himself the vital question: reinterpreted by whom? The Bible itself never asks us to believe in God, even if He didn’t create the universe; nor does it ask us to believe in Jesus Christ, even if He didn’t rise from the grave. The notion that religious faith ought to be unfalsifiable is a theological novelty, which seems to have arisen in Christian circles a mere 220 years ago, in the writings of Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834), who was heavily influenced by the philosopher Spinoza’s naturalistic critique of miracles. However, Schleiermacher’s position is a minority view among Christians to this day, and to his credit, Dr. Denis Alexander (the molecular biologist who is the object of Moran’s scorn) roundly rejects such a compromise view: for him, the discovery of Jesus’ bones in Palestine would falsify Christianity.

The Arnolfini Portrait, by Jan van Eyck (c. 1390-1441). Date: 1434. National Gallery, London. Image courtesy of Wikipedia.

So much for Professor Moran’s first two strikes. What of his third strike: his claim that you can’t know anything from religious experience unless you can “prove to an outside observer that you are not deluded”? What Moran’s argument implicitly assumes is that you can’t know something is true unless you can prove it to an unbiased outsider. But knowing and proving are very different things, and in the course of everyday life, there are many things that we can properly claim to know, even though we cannot prove them. We do not (and should not) need a scientist to tell us that someone whom we know very well is trustworthy, or that someone in our family loves us. These judgments that we make about particular individuals are intuitive rather than scientific: often we may be quite certain of them, even though we are unable to articulate the grounds for our certainty. Professor Moran might respond that our intuitive judgments about others are nevertheless empirically testable: for instance, the behavior of your spouse over the course of time can lend strong evidential support to the hypothesis that s/he loves you. But even if statements like “My spouse loves me” are testable, we typically come to believe in their truth long before we have subjected them to systematic testing. And we are right to do so.

Professor Moran could argue that at least an unbiased outsider can be satisfied by the evidence that my spouse exists: he can see her and talk to her, for instance. However, the situation is quite different when it comes to God: many people (including people who would like to believe in God) have never had an experience of Him, and therefore doubt or deny His existence. But what this argument illicitly assumes is that religious experience is uniformly accessible to everyone. Perhaps it isn’t; maybe it requires a certain aptitude on the part of the recipient. Just as some otherwise normal people are quite tone-deaf, it may be the case that some people are (through no particular fault of their own) deaf to the “still, small voice of God.” I can quite sympathize; in my entire life, I’ve had only a couple of experiences that I might describe as a sense of the presence of God, and I certainly haven’t heard any voices or seen any visions. But if other people are convinced that they have, then who am I to say that they have no right to be sure they’ve seen God until I can see what they claim to have seen? That would be extremely presumptuous of me. It could be that I’m just religiously tone-deaf – or very hard of hearing. Should I be wary of visionaries’ claims? Certainly – especially when different people claim to see different things. But that has no bearing on the question of whether these people’s experiences count as a valid source of knowledge – at least for them.

What’s wrong with Moran’s claim that science is the only way of knowing?

In his post, Can theology produce true knowledge?, Professor Moran concludes that “for the time being, science is the only proven way to arrive at true knowledge.” If he had taken the trouble to read Associate Professor Edward Feser’s short article in Public Discourse, Blinded by Scientism (March 9, 2010), he would have seen why this statement is simply ridiculous. Here’s how Feser (an ex-atheist) demolishes the view that all real knowledge is scientific knowledge (scientism):

Despite its adherents’ pose of rationality, scientism has a serious problem: it is either self-refuting or trivial. Take the first horn of this dilemma. The claim that scientism is true is not itself a scientific claim, not something that can be established using scientific methods. Indeed, that science is even a rational form of inquiry (let alone the only rational form of inquiry) is not something that can be established scientifically. For scientific inquiry itself rests on a number of philosophical assumptions: that there is an objective world external to the minds of scientists; that this world is governed by causal regularities; that the human intellect can uncover and accurately describe these regularities; and so forth. Since science presupposes these things, it cannot attempt to justify them without arguing in a circle. And if it cannot even establish that it is a reliable form of inquiry, it can hardly establish that it is the only reliable form. Both tasks would require “getting outside” science altogether and discovering from that extra-scientific vantage point that science conveys an accurate picture of reality—and in the case of scientism, that only science does so.

The rational investigation of the philosophical presuppositions of science has, naturally, traditionally been regarded as the province of philosophy. Nor is it these presuppositions alone that philosophy examines. There is also the question of how to interpret what science tells us about the world. For example, is the world fundamentally comprised of substances or events? What is it to be a “cause”? Is there only one kind? (Aristotle held that there are at least four.) What is the nature of the universals referred to in scientific laws — concepts like quark, electron, atom, and so on — and indeed in language in general? Do they exist over and above the particular things that instantiate them? Scientific findings can shed light on such metaphysical questions, but can never fully answer them. Yet if science must depend upon philosophy both to justify its presuppositions and to interpret its results, the falsity of scientism seems doubly assured. As the conservative philosopher John Kekes (himself a confirmed secularist like Derbyshire and MacDonald) concludes: “Hence philosophy, and not science, is a stronger candidate for being the very paradigm of rationality.”

Here we come to the second horn of the dilemma facing scientism. Its advocate may now insist: if philosophy has this status, it must really be a part of science, since (he continues to maintain, digging in his heels) all rational inquiry is scientific inquiry. The trouble now is that scientism becomes completely trivial, arbitrarily redefining “science” so that it includes anything that could be put forward as evidence against it. Worse, it makes scientism consistent with views that are supposed to be incompatible with it. For example, a line of thought deriving from Aristotle and developed with great sophistication by Thomas Aquinas holds that when we work out what it is for one thing to be the cause of another, we are inexorably led to the existence of an Uncaused Cause outside time and space which continually sustains the causal regularities studied by science, and apart from which they could not in principle exist even for a moment.

If “scientism” is defined so broadly that it includes (at least in principle) philosophical theology of this kind, then the view becomes completely vacuous. For the whole point of scientism — or so it would seem given the rhetoric of its loudest adherents — was supposed to be to provide a weapon by which fields of inquiry like theology might be dismissed as inherently unscientific and irrational.

(The bolding in the above passage is mine – VJT.)

Of course, it might turn out that biochemist Larry Moran has a crushing rejoinder to Edward Feser, who is a professional philosopher. And for that matter, pigs might fly. But I certainly wouldn’t bet on either proposition.

Why Moran’s critique of the fine-tuning argument fails

Professor Moran’s second silly post of February 8 is titled, Intelligent Design Creationism and the fine-tuning argument. Moran thinks that biochemist Michael Denton (who is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture) is “not a trustworthy source of information” when it comes to the fine-tuning argument. So who does he turn to instead? The late physicist Victor Stenger, author of God the Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist. Moran writes:

I have to trust an authority on this one. I choose to trust physicist Igor (sic) Stenger who has actually done an experiment to test the hypothesis of fine tuning.

I conclude that fine tuning is not a valid argument for the existence of gods.

Evidently Professor Moran has not read (or heard of) the devastating refutation of Victor Stenger’s “take-down” of the fine-tuning argument by cosmologist Dr. Luke Barnes, in a 2011 ARXIV paper titled, The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life. For the benefit of readers who dislike mathematics, I’ve written a non-technical overview of Dr. Barnes’ paper, titled, Is fine-tuning a fallacy? (January 5, 2012). In his paper, Dr. Barnes takes care to avoid drawing any metaphysical conclusions from the fact of fine-tuning. He has no religious axe to grind. His main concern is simply to establish that the fine-tuning of the universe is real, contrary to the claims of Professor Stenger, who asserts that all of the alleged examples of fine-tuning in our universe can be explained without the need for a multiverse.

Not only has Professor Moran not heard of Dr. Luke Barnes, but he hasn’t even picked the best critique of the fine-tuning argument for the existence of God, which was made by physicist Dr. Sean Carroll in a debate with Dr. William Lane Craig. I’ve responded to Dr. Carroll in a post titled, Debunking the debunker: How Sean Carroll gets the fine-tuning argument wrong.

I might add that Professor Stenger’s denial of the very existence of fine-tuning puts him at odds with most experts in the field. Here is a list of prominent scientists (compiled by Dr. Barnes) who acknowledge the reality of fine-tuning:

Barrow, Carr, Carter, Davies, Hawkins,
Deutsch, Ellis, Greene, Guth, Harrison,
Hawking, Linde, Page, Penrose,
Polkinghorne, Rees, Sandage, Smolin,
Susskind, Tegmark, Tipler, Vilenkin,
Weinberg, Wheeler, Wilczek

Commenting on these scientists’ religious perspectives, Dr. Barnes remarks: “The list is a roughly equal mix of theist, non-theist and unknown.”

Now, if Professor Moran thinks that Victor Stenger is a more trustworthy source than these eminent scientists, then he is entitled to his opinion; however, he cannot credibly claim to be listening to what the experts have to say.

Dr. Barnes’ conclusions at the end of his paper, The Fine-Tuning of the Universe for Intelligent Life, are well worth quoting:

We conclude that the universe is fine-tuned for the existence of life. Of all the ways that the laws of nature, constants of physics and initial conditions of the universe could have been, only a very small subset permits the existence of intelligent life. (p. 62)

It is not true that fine-tuning must eventually yield to the relentless march of science. Fine-tuning is not a typical scientific problem, that is, a phenomenon in our universe that cannot be explained by our current understanding of physical laws. It is not a gap. Rather, we are concerned with the physical laws themselves. In particular, the anthropic coincidences are not like, say, the coincidence between inertial mass and gravitational mass in Newtonian gravity, which is a coincidence between two seemingly independent physical quantities. Anthropic coincidences, on the other hand, involve a happy consonance between a physical quantity and the requirements of complex, embodied intelligent life. The anthropic coincidences are so arresting because we are accustomed to thinking of physical laws and initial conditions as being unconcerned with how things turn out. Physical laws are material and efficient causes, not final causes. There is, then, no reason to think that future progress in physics will render a life-permitting universe inevitable. When physics is finished, when the equation is written on the blackboard and fundamental physics has gone as deep as it can go, fine-tuning may remain, basic and irreducible. (p. 63)

Perhaps the most optimistic scenario is that we will eventually discover a simple, beautiful physical principle from which we can derive a unique physical theory, whose unique solution describes the universe as we know it, including the standard model, quantum gravity, and (dare we hope) the initial conditions of cosmology. While this has been the dream of physicists for centuries, there is not the slightest bit of evidence that this idea is true. It is almost certainly not true of our best hope for a theory of quantum gravity, string theory, which has “anthropic principle written all over it” (Schellekens, 2008). The beauty of its principles has not saved us from the complexity and contingency of the solutions to its equations. Beauty and simplicity are not necessity. (p.63)

At the end of his post, Professor Moran asks:

Can Intelligent Design Creationists refute the views of Stenger and other physicists or have they just convinced themselves that what they say to each other is true?

I hope that Professor Moran will have the grace to own that his critique of the fine-tuning argument was uninformed, and that Intelligent Design proponents have done their homework on this argument.

Professor Moran’s scientism lies tattered in shreds; his critique of the fine-tuning argument has been thoroughly eviscerated; and his “three strikes” against Dr. Denis Alexander turned out to be fouls. Would a retraction be out of the question, Professor?

Comments
Matspirit says says it’s a multiverse… 1. Do you have proof for this alledged multiverse? 2. Do you understand the problem of a multiverse? If it is true then everything is true…. Batman, Ewoks, Jason and Jesus…. nothing is false and science is pointless. icc world cup 2019 teamssumit123
June 4, 2019
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Me_Think:
GaryGaulin @ 142 This trick is quite common. It is variation of this with some modification.The guy had a hip harness which is apparent by the way he walks off the stage.The collapse of support stick would have been by a lever hidden in the ‘stick’.
I think you are right, or at least darn close. It seems like the more you see him walk around with the stick/cane the easier it becomes to (during the performance) miss that somewhat obvious clue.GaryGaulin
February 28, 2016
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Occult levitation. Thanks Me_Think for your reply. “Of course, over 40 Tesla magnetic force can be created locally to lift human body by diamagnetism. Forget the heat generated from such large magnetism, in the vicinity of such miracle, you will see all kinds of creatures from frogs to lizards to insects – all charred due to heat – floating along with the saint/human. It would be a revolting sight.” Impressive figures; equally, a person materialising through a closed upper room would be impressive. However, in relation to “charred due to heat.” In England, Doreen Irvine, at the time, queen black witch, (apparently we have covens in England) reported in her book, she could levitate, and walk through six-foot high flames, in the middle Lucifer materialised. “My ability to levitate four or five feet was very real. It was not a hoax. Demons aided me.” At much cost, she later became a Christian. (From Witchcraft to Christ, p. 99) "A revolting sight" indeed; Satan levitating in flame.! Clearly, if we believe such, then occult forces can also manipulate gravitational time-space effects. Perhaps we may like to join a coven and draw a pentacle or two in order to test her claims! But that is ill-advised, to say the least. However, I feel your impressive equations, may have an underlying purpose; to discredit the resurrection and the ascension believed by many. Jesus locally altered physical laws by demonstrating an unknown intelligent power: a super science. However, at that moment in history, Jesus was God in the flesh: he said he was “I am” hence equal to Yahweh in essence: the main reason for the crucifixion. As for your correcting my figure of speech “fireworks” as an expression for what happened at some theoretical Big Bang, do you have a spare cosmos to test the Big Bang while knowing full well the Big Bang as a light time travel problem of its own, and that Guthe’s model is an add-on to make the theory work. As for you saying evolutionism is more believable than creation in six days. Well, the God-Man believed it, and reportedly, he really did some impressive things beyond the scope of ordinary theory and science. I would agree, yes, creation in six days really does look foolish. If it really is foolish, Jesus died believing a silly thing, in fact, a silly God for having the power and intelligence to see today from all eternity, but then did not have the guts to say he created by evolution in according with consensus theory. However, the impetus for the Judaeo-Christians scriptures always, always, starts with a localised or individual mystical experience of some description: a single supernatural event, given by an intelligent power. There are super intelligent patterns at work.mw
February 26, 2016
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mw @ 143
The choice: a God-Man who believes he created in six days and died to redeem the effects of two creatures that infect us. Or, a theoretical unprovable brainless explosion; an undirected, uncoordinated cosmic firework display, lit in no space-time, triggered by chance, which explosively created all physical laws and cosmic order.
First off, there was no explosion (Big Bang is inflation). Secondly,there are hundreds of religions with thousands of God.All have their own story of how universe and human race was created by their God . The stories don't match. Do you realize that an omnipotent and omniscient God(s) is far more complicated hypothesis to explain than simple evolution?
“No one can levitate against 9.8 m/sec force.” - Not unless the creator of those laws suspends them locally.
That's a wrong notion. The entire Earth's mass hardly affects space-time curvature. There is no way to change the curvature locally. Have a gander at Einstein Field equation and tell me how you can modify the stress energy tensor (other terms are constants) to affect gravity locally. The creator has to change something there, but there is nothing which can be changed there to affect gravity locally. To change the gravity (not locally) from 9.8 m/sec to say 3.9 m/sec, about 3.6x10^24 Kg of Earth has to be gutted out! ((6.67*10^-11)* 2.38002*10^24)/(6.38*10^6)^2, so the Earth has to be relieved off 5.98*10^24 - 2.38002*10^24 Kg= 3.59998*10^24 Kg . Of course, over 40 Tesla magnetic force can be created locally to lift human body by diamagnetism. Forget the heat generated from such large magnetism, in the vicinity of such miracle, you will see all kinds of creatures from frogs to lizards to insects - all charred due to heat - floating along with the saint/human. It would be a revolting sight.Me_Think
February 25, 2016
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From Msg 117: MatSpirit asks: Show me the steps primitive life took to a DNA based reproductive system and show me which step contains a jump too great for evolution to bridge. (vjt) Please see this post of mine, which quotes from the relevant section of Koonin’s paper. The logic is not hard to follow: https://uncommondescent.com.....think-not/ ------------- It's just as I suspected. Koonin believes that life has to start out with a highly complex and accurate reproduction system, one using molecules made of hundreds of atoms. He believes this system must have assembled itself randomly and because of its complexity, he thinks such self assembly is so rare that it would never happen in this universe, so you need a multiverse containing a huge number of universes before one of them is likely to randomly assemble it. You hear this idea all the time from the YEC and ID camps and nowhere else that i know of until Dr. Koonin came along. Everybody else in the Origin Of Life field thinks life started as a much smaller molecule and then gradually evolved the modern RNA + DNA system a few bits at a time. This would explain why Dr. Koonin’s book and paper were so widely ignored. Honestly, every reference to Koonin I've ever seen comes from the YEC-ID camp. It made no impression whatsoever on the OOL community that I know of.MatSpirit
February 25, 2016
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GaryGaulin @ 142 This trick is quite common. It is variation of this with some modification.The guy had a hip harness which is apparent by the way he walks off the stage.The collapse of support stick would have been by a lever hidden in the 'stick'.Me_Think
February 25, 2016
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Thankfully the Theory of Intelligent Design only needs to complement Genesis. It's then for Christians, Muslims, Jews and others who find Genesis inspiring. Iffy miracles that came after the origin of Adam & Eve are beyond what the theory is premised for. It's best to leave these issues up to respective theologians. Going past that point has a way of making many enemies much like Galileo did, by trying to be in charge of religion too. In my opinion Charles Darwin's "evolution by natural selection" theory is easily enough antiquated. But it does not help to repeat what we already read hundreds of times and I within reason already agree with. It is very counter productive to present levitation and similar religious miracles as scientific evidence for how intelligent cause works. You only need to follow the scientific evidence that exists in biology from self-similar levels of multicellular, cellular, molecular genetic intelligence, which is powered by the repeatable (as per at least computer science "deterministic") behavior of matter that does not need to suspend its own behavioral laws to create intelligent life throughout the universe. You have to start where science allows, go from there.GaryGaulin
February 25, 2016
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Me_Think @ 136: “No one can levitate against 9.8 m/sec force.” Well, no one without super intelligence and super scientific knowledge can raise himself from the dead, which is far more difficult than mere levitation, that is, if we believe the written witnesses of the Judaeo-Christian scripture. Slick intelligent people were not initially chosen to spread the fact that people were willing to stake their lives on such mystical experiences of mind-blowing proportions. Except for one disciple, all ran, and disowned Jesus. But after seeing the impossible, a dead raised himself from the dead, they must have realised what a constrained ittle life this is in contrast to such mysteries. Indeed, at Pentecost, the point was, the disciples were more or less uneducated people, yet understanding every language. Without a doubt, the basis of the Judaeo-Christian religion is the mystical experience: historically based from Sinai. The choice: a God-Man who believes he created in six days and died to redeem the effects of two creatures that infect us. Or, a theoretical unprovable brainless explosion; an undirected, uncoordinated cosmic firework display, lit in no space-time, triggered by chance, which explosively created all physical laws and cosmic order. From which, brainless blind copying errors, in cell form, arose from dead matter, generated from dust/minerals and a touch of lightning, having the illusion of the appearance of design. That first life form, in turn, had to 'levitate' or ‘lever' itself into another life form requiring a mate and requiring more informational effort than the prior life form had: a form of none mystical Darwinian ‘levitation' by common descent design: a mirage of the wizard of Downe UK; Darwin. Darwinism is full of bells, whistles, and slight of hands. It can pull a new bone or date out of the evolutionist hat every time it needs to do so. That is not science; it is a pseudo-science containing a core fundamental belief, the unprovable: common descent from nothing. Fact, no one has ever seen one life structure evolving into another unique life form by theoretical common descent. Fact, after the resurrection and at the ascension, a number of people witnessed a new evolution, still with the limits of the original design in the image of God; a dual life form that is able to function in the dimension of the spirit and the physical; physical time and eternal time, and levitate into apparent ‘nothing.’ “No one can levitate against 9.8 m/sec force.” Not unless the creator of those laws suspends them locally.mw
February 25, 2016
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Maybe this man knows? man levitates on americas got talent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CnbJwZI6_QGaryGaulin
February 25, 2016
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It is obviously a variation of fork lift trick with, may be, a simple wooden platform being operated with levers by some hapless junior monk sitting behind the curtain - notice the shake of the platform when the monk starts levitatation. Note that the robe obscures the platform. If the levitation was real, they would have four cameras - front, back and both sides recording the Monk levitating. It is clever of the monk to have all those lamps to prevent the camera from circling around him. He obviously is street smart!Me_Think
February 25, 2016
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Well Me_Think, I did not double check your calculations but yes I would say that the science indicates that it's an illusion. That though does not explain how it works. Your theory?GaryGaulin
February 24, 2016
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GaryGaulin @ 138, Don't try to promote unscientific thinking. You know very well that it is fake. I repeat: No one can levitate against 9.8 m/sec force. Either the levitations are illusion or the reporting is false. No amount of meditation or trance can reduce body’s density and no anti-gravity force can be concentrated in an area to lift a body. If you believe diamagnetic force would have lifted the saints,remember 40 Tesla magnetic force is required to lift a body, which is 1.25*10^6 times Earth’s magnetic field.Me_Think
February 24, 2016
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Querius inquires:
So do you believe or disbelieve the levitation demonstrated in the video? Was it real or fake?
I would need more evidence than the camera work. Anyone want to volunteer to go there to set up a portable enclosure with sensors all around it?GaryGaulin
February 24, 2016
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GaryGaulin,
And apparently Buddhists still levitate on a regular basis: Levitation (siddhi/occult ability) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKruT-6vUIs
Nice camera work, eh? lol.daveS
February 24, 2016
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No one can levitate against 9.8 m/sec force. Either the levitations are illusion or the reporting is false. No amount of meditation or trance can reduce body's density and no anti-gravity force can be concentrated in an area to lift a body. If you believe diamagnetic force would have lifted the saints,remember 40 Tesla magnetic force is required to lift a body, which is 1.25*10^6 times Earth's magnetic field.Me_Think
February 24, 2016
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GaryGaulin, So do you believe or disbelieve the levitation demonstrated in the video? Was it real or fake? -QQuerius
February 24, 2016
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There were thousands of people who witnessed his levitations and gave sworn testimonies, so there can be no reasonable doubt as to the facts.
How about Muslim levitation? In the time period we are discussing just about all mainstream religions were reporting such miracles, witnessed by too many people to not be true. And apparently Buddhists still levitate on a regular basis: Levitation (siddhi/occult ability) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKruT-6vUIs Where levitation is used to indicate religious truth then the most modern evidence greatly favors Buddhists, and from other religions.GaryGaulin
February 24, 2016
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Vjtorley: "What you’ve forgotten, MatSpirit, is that some infinities are bigger than others. The number of real numbers is larger than the number of integers, even though both are infinite." Yes, Aleph null and all that. I don't see your point here. As for the fake universe argument, we've all been idiots, you, me and Davies. Suppose there is no multiverse. Suppose there's just this one universe, the one we live in. Now suppose somebody builds a fake universe. That means a person can't be sure if he's living in a fake universe or the real one. Think René Descartes lying unconscious while an evil demon feeds him sensations of a fake universe.MatSpirit
February 24, 2016
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Vjtorley in 123: "MatSpirit attempts to refute the article by engaging in two ad himinem attacks, noting that Dr. McGrew isn’t a biologist, and that she links to the work of Dr. Ann Gauger, whom he dismisses as having no credibility. Dr. McGrew tells us herself that she's not a biologist. Please dont blame me for passign it on. Dr. Gauger has no credibility. She lost it when she left science and hired on to the Discovery Institute. Now her job is to refute evolution. In this case she does that by plucking a single paper from the field (one writen by a Christian, incidently), nit picking it to death, and using tortured logic to 'prove' that all the variations we see today might have come from just two parents ... ... four to six million years ago, when the ancestors of modern humans first split from the chimps! Our ancestors weren't humans back then, just another tribe of chimps. But who cares anyway when Adam and Eve are dated to circa 4000 BC? What a train wreck! But I do congratulate Dr. McGrew for linking to a real authority.MatSpirit
February 24, 2016
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Hi vjtorley, welcome back. I'll answer your questions in order: 114: Your patient, his wife, his congregation and doubtless many others prayed for him and he didn't get any better. Then they changed his nutrition and he was cured. Sounds like prayer failed. The nun story says that one in two people suffer from Alzheimers if they live long enough. So did one out of two nuns. No cures despite a lot of prayers. The last paragraph thanks the nuns for their cooperation. I thank them too. 115: I read your original St. Cupertino messages with great ... interest. So he was seen levitating 1500 times? That reminds me of the 500 people who saw Jesus alive after death - except that turns out to be some unidentified person telling Paul that 500 unidentified people saw Jesus at some unidentified location at some unidentified time doing something undescribed. Not very authorative. As for the church, it seems they responded to these allegedly widely witnessed miracles by putting the poor man under virtual house arrest and forbidding him to have contact with people. If the miracles were genuine, you'd expect a little more enthusiasm from the Church. But of course, we have signed documents from people who swear to the truth of all this levitation. We also have signed statements from Volkswagon that their diesels pass all emission tests. VW has a pretty good reputation. I'll bet that most of their people are basically honest. So it seems that even well respected institutions run by basically honest people can occasionally produce outright self serving lies. What a surprise. 117: Let's save this for another message. 119: On the "mistranslation" of "eleph": I checked several different Bible translations at biblegateway.com. They all say six hundred thousand. Apparently none of them are aware of any translation problems. Your Dr. Wood indicates it was a large number - "Finally the word became a technical term for a military unit of considerable size". That sounds like a thousand to me, but say it's only 500. That's still a million Israelis entering the country. Any archeological signs of them? Apparently not. Dr. Wood says, "...the urban population in the highlands where the Israelites settled remained approximately the same as it was prior to the Conquest..." As Dr. Woods says, "The number of Israelites who left Egypt at the time of the Exodus is a vexed problem." How much of the Arabian desert has been dug up? Enough to find individual Bedouin campfires from the period. But no sign of a tribe of even 20,000. Somewhere in the Books of Moses, there are some rather explicit orders for how to live in the wilderness. It includes instructions on placing the privies. Imagine 20,000 people digging up the ground for their privies every day for 40 tears. That would be hard to miss. Especially since they would be concentrated around the few oasis. Wonder where they are.MatSpirit
February 24, 2016
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Hi Gary Gaulin, I found Joe Nickell's attempted debunking of St. Joseph of Cupertino's levitations utterly unconvincing. Nickell suggests that St. Joseph may have been exceptionally agile. What this overlooks is that he had the ability to stay up in the air for literally hours on end. And unlike the street performer you linked to, he wasn't holding onto anything either. He had no stick in his hand. There were thousands of people who witnessed his levitations and gave sworn testimonies, so there can be no reasonable doubt as to the facts. As for yogic flying, take a look at this video and you'll see why it's nothing of the sort: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHwhGUo90jw I'm sorry, but you'll have to do better than that.vjtorley
February 22, 2016
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vjtorely @ 123, Thanks for fixing the link. For the detractors here, it appears that no amount of evidence can prevail against their unsupported assertions and profound ignorance. Both Jesus of Nazareth and Leonardo da Vinci were accused by the dominant church authorities of their times of practicing black magic. Virtually all major discoveries are met with hostility.
"New ideas are always criticized - not because an idea lacks merit, but because it might turn out to be workable, which would threaten the reputations of many people whose opinions conflict with it. Some people may even lose their jobs." - physicist, requested anonymity "Too much openness and you accept every notion, idea, and hypothesis - which is tantamount to knowing nothing. Too much skepticism - especially rejection of new ideas before they are adequately tested - and you're not only unpleasantly grumpy, but also closed to the advance of science. A judicious mix is what we need." - Carl Sagan "All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; and Third, it is accepted as self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer "Theories have four stages of acceptance: i) this is worthless nonsense; ii) this is an interesting, but perverse, point of view; iii) this is true, but quite unimportant; iv) I always said so. -J.B.S. Haldane, 1963 "When a thing is new, people say: 'It is not true.' Later, when its truth becomes obvious, they say: 'It is not important.' Finally, when its importance cannot be denied, they say: 'Anyway, it is not new.'" - William James, 1896
The difference between scientists who follow the data even when in opposition to the majority, and those who merely want to confirm their preconceptions and prejudices is aptly illustrated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g That such behavior persists is lavishly illustrated in the previous posts. -QQuerius
February 21, 2016
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I found a clip from the documentary where I first learned about the levitation trick: Secret of levitation in India: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIGxPk0Xqps St. Joseph of Cupertino and others are mentioned here: BBC - Secret of Levitation 2-6 Video https://youtu.be/ly4z2Hm8jSo?t=4m44sGaryGaulin
February 21, 2016
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hrun0815:
Re #124: And millions witnessed it, too.
Yes! It seems hard to argue against so many eye-witnesses. I also recall this common and perhaps ancient money making illusion that only requires a sturdy pole with a seat coming out from the side, or from the top through the arm: Amazing street performer!! Must see to believe! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXu-5QUy014 From the description VJT provided the flying monk stayed in the same spot in the air for hours at a time, as do these performers. Even these days they are still popular with the public, and have thousands of witnesses who will agree that they were indeed somehow floating in the air.GaryGaulin
February 21, 2016
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MatSpirit writes:
What would you say is the ratio of livable to fatal universes? One in a hundred? One in a thousand? A million? A trillion? A gazillion? A Wolf! number? Every multiverse theory I’m aware of says that there are an infinite number of universes in existence, past and present. ANY number, no matter how small, divided into infinity gives infinity. The Multiverse adds an actual infinity to the equations. That makes math do surprising things.
What you've forgotten, MatSpirit, is that some infinities are bigger than others. The number of real numbers is larger than the number of integers, even though both are infinite. If the number of fake universes containing minds with simulated experiences is larger than the number of real universes containing minds, then it's rational to believe that you're living in a fake universe. That was the point of physicist Paul Davies' reductio ad absurdum argument against the multiverse. You object that the creation of a fake universe would require a lot of computing resources. Please see Simon Bostrom's original paper on the subject here. Here's an excerpt:
While it is not possible to get a very exact estimate of the cost of a realistic simulation of human history, we can use ~10^33 to 10^36 operations as a rough estimate... We noted that a rough approximation of the computational power of a planetary?mass computer is 10^42 operations per second, and that assumes only already known nanotechnological designs, which are probably far from optimal. A single such a computer could simulate the entire mental history of humankind (call this an ancestor?simulation) by using less than one millionth of its processing power for one second. A posthuman civilization may eventually build an astronomical number of such computers. We can conclude that the computing power available to a posthuman civilization is sufficient to run a huge number of ancestor?simulations even it allocates only a minute fraction of its resources to that purpose. We can draw this conclusion even while leaving a substantial margin of error in all our estimates.
vjtorley
February 21, 2016
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Re #124: And millions witnessed it, too.hrun0815
February 21, 2016
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hrun0815 wonders:
And I find it amusing to no end that there is this suggestion that the christian god has nothing better to do than to suspend gravity a couple of times a day to make a monk fly every time he heard the names Jesus, Mary, or those of any number of saints. But surely there are some very serious and smart theologians that will explain why this makes perfect sense.
The Flying Nun - America's Sweetheart? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbwwk_k5-dw Some fictional story themes have a way of lasting through time. People who do not know that the "Flying Nun" was a fictional TV character could be persuaded to believe it's a real story.GaryGaulin
February 21, 2016
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Querius @ 90, I've fixed the link to Lydia McGrew's article, No, Virginia, Science hasn't debunked Adam. MatSpirit attempts to refute the article by engaging in two ad himinem attacks, noting that Dr. McGrew isn't a biologist, and that she links to the work of Dr. Ann Gauger, whom he dismisses as having no credibility. Dr. Ann Gauger is a zoologist with a B.S. in biology from MIT and a 1989 Ph.D. from the University of Washington, where she studied cell adhesion molecules involved in Drosophila embryogenesis. As a post-doctoral fellow at Harvard she cloned and characterized the Drosophila kinesin light chain. Her research has been published in Nature, Development, and the Journal of Biological Chemistry. I think Dr. Gauger's record speaks for itself.vjtorley
February 21, 2016
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hrun0815, You haven’t read my posts, have you? Go and take a look. If David Copperfield could duplicate St. Joseph of Cupertino’s feats using 17th century technology than I’d be mighty impressed.
I actually did read the part of the post about St. Joseph of Cupertino’s feats. And I also read your suggestion that evidence is evidence-- even if weak. For what it is worth, I think that David Copperfield's performance is better evidence for the existence of the supernatural than the description of the floating monk. And I find it amusing to no end that there is this suggestion that the christian god has nothing better to do than to suspend gravity a couple of times a day to make a monk fly every time he heard the names Jesus, Mary, or those of any number of saints. But surely there are some very serious and smart theologians that will explain why this makes perfect sense.hrun0815
February 21, 2016
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MatSpirit asks:
Show me the steps primitive life took to a DNA based reproductive system and show me which step contains a jump too great for evolution to bridge.
It is up to the ID movement to scientifically explain how any "jump too great for evolution to bridge" was accomplished and how it can be tested, so stay on the offensive. Your being willing to stay on the defensive makes it easy to grind you down with arguments that change the subject away from having to themselves scientifically explain the process involved.GaryGaulin
February 21, 2016
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