Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Larry Moran doesn’t like any of us, not sure why

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Jonathan McLatchie writes to mention that University of Toronto biochemist Larry Moran is hot on the trail again, this time in response to McLatchie’s vid (below) “Is ID a science?”

I agree that many ID proponents try to use the science way of knowing to prove that creator gods must have built some complex molecular structures inside modern cells. They try to use evidence and they try to use rational thinking to arrive at logical conclusions. That qualifies as science, in my opinion, even though ID proponents fail to make their case. They don’t have the evidence and their logic is faulty. It’s science but it’s bad science.

Lot’s of genuine scientists also publish bad science.

Unclear what Dr. Moran means by “genuine scientists” here, if he agrees that ID is science. Would like to know what else he calls “bad science.”

But, you know, he might be onto a different argument next month.

In a curious passage, he writes,

As long as ID supports outspoken leaders like Denyse O’Leary, Barry Arrington, Phillip Johnson, Casey Luskin, David Klinghoffer, Paul Neslon, John West, William Lane Craig, and others who are not scientific by any stretch of the imagination, then it can’t claim to be entirely scientific.1 It’s also a movement and that movement is called Intelligent Design Creationism and their ultimate goal is to replace true science with an approach based on the premise that gods exist. It wants faith to be recognized as a valid way of knowing and it wants to destroy materialism and all the “evils” associated with it.

Tip from an old news hack: When people talk in the impersonal third person about an agglomeration of individuals, they are spouting propaganda.

Such people might be correct or not, but correctness does not correlate at all with this type of self-expression.

For one thing, as soon as one changes it to “These people want,” one is responsible for ensuring that there is some factual basis for the assertion that they all want that.

But now, to address the point: Why would the scientists at, say, Biologic Institute and Evolutionary Information Lab, stop us writer types from exposing Darwin’s and other nonsense—and spend their time doing it themselves instead of working at the bench or laptop?

But let us say they agreed to do so. Would Dr. Moran like to rid the world of all the bimboes, bimbettes, twits and twerps, dumboes, stumboes, and yo-yos on Airhead TV who claim to “believe in” evolution (= half-remembered Darwinism from high school)?

He’d have a way bigger job than us. Perhaps that is why he shows no sign of getting around to it.

Then, from Dr. Moran, we hear in closing,

This is why a spokesman for ID appears on a Christian apolgetics podcast even though the Pastor who runs the show is not a scientist and probably doesn’t accept scientific results. He knows, just as you and I know, that ID is a front for creationism. It’s an attempt to dress up creationism in a lab coat and that’s why so many Christian fundamentalists support it even thought they don’t give a damn about science.

Huh? Didn’t Dr. Moran just say that he thought ID “qualifies as science, in my opinion,” though bad science …?

Oh, you know, it doesn’t pay to try to make sense of it. This is what retirement will be for. He can spend all his time writing this stuff, and he’ll have a big following too.

Incidentally, Dr. Moran now claims that Vincent Torley’s credibility has gone way up. Sorry, Larry, the ship has sailed. No one is looking for the mid-last century faithful to establish credibility in this area now. When I sensed change on the winds, I sure sniffed right*.

Some facts of possible interest: Paul Nelson is a philosopher whose specialty is evolutionary biology. That’s actually way more useful than evolutionary biologists who moonlight as amateur philosophers.

John West has a political science background and is a senior manager at Discovery Institute, and David Klinghoffer is an editor there (sometimes my editor at a different day job, my series at Evolution News & Views). Casey Luskin has Earth Science degrees but, as he is also a lawyer, works mainly as legal counsel at DI.

Barry Arrington is a lawyer in private practice who sometimes offer insights from his experiences in that capacity in his posts. He is the president of Uncommon Descent, Inc., a Colorado non-profit, where I usually work.

*I am, as noted above, an old news hack who got sick of the stinkpile of stale ideas around Darwinism and—more significantly—sensed change on the winds.

William Lane Craig is a Discovery Institute fellow. To hear Larry Krauss (Dawkins’ heir?) go on about him, I can see why he attracts the attention of Darwin’s faithful and their friends.

A list of Discovery Institute fellows. Barry Arrington and I are not on it.

What I like best about my job: It gets to be more fun every year.

Here’s the vid:

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Professor Moran, Have you contacted your colleagues about the issues @220 & @221? Take your time. No pressure. Thank you.Dionisio
November 11, 2015
November
11
Nov
11
11
2015
07:03 PM
7
07
03
PM
PDT
Professor Moran, Morphogen gradients are part of morphogenesis, which includes the determination of size and shape. Morphogenesis is part of organogenesis, which is part of development. A development-related question is about the precise determination of the location of the different organs within the whole system. That seems to be determined on the go, but exactly how? Can you ask your academic colleagues to point at the specific literature where that is explained precisely? For example, what determines that there are two kidneys but just one liver? What determines their relative locations within the whole system? Thank you.Dionisio
November 4, 2015
November
11
Nov
4
04
2015
04:00 PM
4
04
00
PM
PDT
Professor Moran Regarding the first topic, i.e. morphogen gradient formation, I still don't understand well how the sources are determined spatiotemporally (i.e. location & timing). Also, I don't quite understand how the morphogen molecules end up at the locations where they get transported to. Why those locations and not others? Different mechanisms are described, at least partially, in the literature I've looked into, but none seem to answer those questions precisely. Perhaps your academic colleagues can point at the right literature where the above mentioned issues are exactly explained? Thank you.Dionisio
November 4, 2015
November
11
Nov
4
04
2015
02:28 PM
2
02
28
PM
PDT
Professor Moran, I've been trying to gather information for the next part of our interesting discussion. The following link points to a separate thread where I have posted (@1114-1116; @1117-1122) a few references to potentially related papers that I could use to formulate follow-up questions later: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/mystery-at-the-heart-of-life/#comment-586297 BTW, in that same thread there are more references to interesting research papers I could use to formulate follow-up questions too. Please, note that we could discuss other related topics in addition to the three mentioned @202 in this thread, but for now let's stick to those three if you will. Perhaps we both agree that biology is a most fascinating area of science (specially these days), which provide many interesting topics for discussion. I have a number of questions, but would like to reduce them down to just a few. Thus our discussion could remain within acceptable time limits as well as number of posts. I'll try to be back here as soon as the next selection of questions are ready to continue our discussion. Thank you for waiting patiently for the continuation of our friendly chatting. I really appreciate it.Dionisio
November 4, 2015
November
11
Nov
4
04
2015
05:59 AM
5
05
59
AM
PDT
LM, pardon a reminder but we are still waiting for you to explain yourself on your assertion that we REFUSE to present ANY evidence for ID; when in fact on abundant cases that is not so. As a longstanding critic of ID, you know or should know that ID is the school of scientific thought that studies observable and at least arguable signs of intelligently directed configuration in the natural world. So, something is seriously wrong with what you asserted at 161 above and duties of care to accuracy, fairness and truth obtain. In that context, and on fair comment: your apparent hopping off to other threads and topics to play at the objections game without seriously resolving this matter, does not speak well. KFkairosfocus
October 31, 2015
October
10
Oct
31
31
2015
03:50 AM
3
03
50
AM
PDT
F/N: Rhetorical question -- what are the odds that if a long string of objectors to the design inference really thought we refused to offer ANY evidence of ID and could show it, that there would be the great silence we have seen since 161? Patent answer, NIL. Serious Q -- what does this tell us about what is going on? KFkairosfocus
October 30, 2015
October
10
Oct
30
30
2015
03:28 AM
3
03
28
AM
PDT
Folks, we can conclude from the continued studious silence now that the bluff has been called for some days, that LM has no cogent answer on why he asserted that we refuse to give any evidence of ID. In fact, design thinkers have been eager to point out such evidence and have done so many times on the record, but evolutionary materialist establishment objectors are not willing to acknowledge that such evidence exists and evidently sometimes find it rhetorically convenient to project dismissive (and willfully false and misleading) talking points. The implication is, that they see themselves as able to exert message dominance in the teeth of the truth. Which speaks sad volumes about what we are facing -- especially in a context of use of the same institutional dominance to build up the sort of polarisation and hostility that have plainly contributed to the climate where an Umpqua is a wake-up call. Finally, the resort to message dominance strongly suggests want of a cogent, on the merits evo mat reply to the design argument on FSCO/I in the world of life. The strong, trillion observation based inductive inference is, FSCO/I is a reliable index of design as causal process. As for designers, the same base strongly shows that designs come about by intelligently directed configuration, thus FSCO/I points to design by acting intelligence. It is therefore evidence for a designer, indeed that folds into the prior issue of the inference to design. KFkairosfocus
October 30, 2015
October
10
Oct
30
30
2015
01:18 AM
1
01
18
AM
PDT
#202 follow up Professor Moran, thank you for waiting. My current traveling has practically concluded, except for the jetlag effects and the time zone adjustment*. Let's continue our discussion, if you will so. In a separate thread I'll post a few references to papers related to the selected topics @202. Later we might point to those references. Any suggestions? (*) I got up in the middle of the night, probably because my bio-clock has not adjusted yet. :)Dionisio
October 29, 2015
October
10
Oct
29
29
2015
11:42 PM
11
11
42
PM
PDT
What happened to this thread? I comment on this thread once or twice and then I leave for a day or two without internet connection and Larry Moran abandons it? Why? What did I do wrong? QJ-Mac
October 29, 2015
October
10
Oct
29
29
2015
02:26 PM
2
02
26
PM
PDT
Still waitingkairosfocus
October 29, 2015
October
10
Oct
29
29
2015
02:23 PM
2
02
23
PM
PDT
'You guys (and especially professor Moran )steadfastly refuse to offer any evidence at all for unintelligent design or for the existence of an unintelligent designer;' Do I have to spell it out for you professor Moran what the above means? I hope we don't have to get to this stage of "understanding". I will follow up soon... QJ-Mac
October 28, 2015
October
10
Oct
28
28
2015
02:36 PM
2
02
36
PM
PDT
We could go post at Sandwalk, but we'd probably get banned. :)Mung
October 28, 2015
October
10
Oct
28
28
2015
01:38 PM
1
01
38
PM
PDT
Mung, an obvious one is, are we refusing to provide any evidence for intelligent design and/or intelligent designers? KFkairosfocus
October 28, 2015
October
10
Oct
28
28
2015
12:45 PM
12
12
45
PM
PDT
LM Are you still holding to the assertion from 161 above:
"you guys steadfastly refuse to offer any evidence at all for intelligent design or for the existence of an intelligent designer"
If so, why? KFkairosfocus
October 28, 2015
October
10
Oct
28
28
2015
05:50 AM
5
05
50
AM
PDT
Dear Prof. Moran, Would it be a nice change of pace for us to answer your questions? I think a lot of us would be willing to give it our best shot.Mung
October 27, 2015
October
10
Oct
27
27
2015
09:09 AM
9
09
09
AM
PDT
Larry Moran
Meanwhile, you guys steadfastly refuse to offer any evidence at all for intelligent design or for the existence of an intelligent designer.
All the intelligent designers died ages ago. We're trying hard to convince people we have evidence for their past existence, but without actually seeing the bodies they just won't believe.Mung
October 27, 2015
October
10
Oct
27
27
2015
09:04 AM
9
09
04
AM
PDT
Vy @ 142. This is truly hilarious:
And, indeed, this is what I teach—that natural selection, and evolution in general, are material processes, blind, mindless, and purposeless.
Thus the concepts of goals or purposes have no place in biology (or any other of the natural sciences), except in studies of human behavior. (p. 282)
So, only humans have goals. The more these evolutionary materialists try to eliminate teleology from biology, the more unique and different from all other animal life the human being becomes. No wonder these people are so confused.Mung
October 27, 2015
October
10
Oct
27
27
2015
08:56 AM
8
08
56
AM
PDT
Box:
It seems to me that the Darwinian narrative is founded on the misconception that “natural selection” is creative, in the sense that it adds information. The Darwinian idea is that natural selection improves chances for the underlying blind search, but in fact the opposite is the true.
Natural selection does improve chances of a search, as the pedagogical program WEASEL has adequately shown.Mung
October 27, 2015
October
10
Oct
27
27
2015
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
F/N: Added, screenshots to show Meyer making a scientific design inference, step by step -- and a note on DNA from Crick's March 1953 letter. KF PS: added a few more.kairosfocus
October 27, 2015
October
10
Oct
27
27
2015
07:05 AM
7
07
05
AM
PDT
FTR: headlined, after a full day of non response by LM. KFkairosfocus
October 27, 2015
October
10
Oct
27
27
2015
04:01 AM
4
04
01
AM
PDT
Professor Moran, Thank you for answering the initial questions that allow me to select three interesting discussion topics and determine how to proceed to the next part of our discussion. Topic #1:
Larry Moran @94
@91: Do YOU know exactly HOW morphogen gradients are formed, at least one case?
Yes.
Clarifying previous answer:
Larry Moran @198
@189: Ok, before we move to the next item, would you like to review your answer (@94) to the first question (@91), in light of the valid reasons you presented when answering (@181) the second question (@110)?
Yes.
Topic #2:
Larry Moran @181
@110: Do YOU know exactly HOW morphogen gradients are interpreted by the cells, at least one case?
I’m going to answer “no” because of the word “exactly” which I interpret to be demanding an extremely detailed molecular account of every bit of the interaction between a morphogen and the control of gene expression in the cell that interprets the morphogen.
Topic #3:
Larry Moran @197
@194: Do YOU know exactly HOW cell fate determinants are segregated during asymmetric mitosis, at least one case?
No.
Since I don't have any right or authority to determine how other people should use their available time, I'm trying to minimize the amount of time required to find any information related to my follow-up questions in the next part of our discussion. A 'yes' answer to a topic question (not a clarification question), would have meant to me that my follow-up questions on the particular topic wouldn't necessarily require that I make references to research papers. Basically, I could have asked any follow-up question on that given topic directly, without pointing to any paper. However, in my poor understanding of the subject, it seems like -given the current state of affairs in the three selected topics- the 'no' answer would be more expected. Given your honest answers, I think I'm ready to proceed to the next part of our discussion, which should be more interesting to both of us, considering that the chosen topics seem to be among the most leading-edge research areas these days, as far as I'm aware of. The next couple of days I should be traveling, hence I might not have time or online connection to continue our discussion. Perhaps I should be back here by the weekend (Dios mediante). At least now we have -if you will- three interesting topics to discuss in the near future. These are three topics where I have a number of questions. But most importantly, the information currently available on these three topics reveal very interesting things that perhaps we could politely discuss too. Again, thank you for your time and for your willingness to graciously share your knowledge here with me and any readers of this thread.Dionisio
October 26, 2015
October
10
Oct
26
26
2015
11:38 PM
11
11
38
PM
PDT
Vy: in the other thread, the Zachs said: In the case of many adaptations, we can show they are random with respect to fitness. That statement should read “In the case of many mutations, we can show they are random with respect to fitness.” We appended a correction to the appropriate thread. Thanks for the heads-up. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/human-and-chimp-dna-they-really-are-about-98-similar/#comment-584939Zachriel
October 26, 2015
October
10
Oct
26
26
2015
05:31 PM
5
05
31
PM
PDT
Larry Moran @198 Ok, that's fine. Thank you.Dionisio
October 26, 2015
October
10
Oct
26
26
2015
02:20 PM
2
02
20
PM
PDT
Larry Moran @197
@194: Do YOU know exactly HOW cell fate determinants are segregated during asymmetric mitosis, at least one case?
No.
Ok, thank you for responding. If you don't mind, I think we could go over the topics related to the three questions you have answered: Morphogen gradient formation and interpretation + asymmetric cell fate determinants segregation. Thank you.Dionisio
October 26, 2015
October
10
Oct
26
26
2015
01:59 PM
1
01
59
PM
PDT
Dionisio asks, Ok, before we move to the next item, would you like to review your answer (@94) to the first question (@91), in light of the valid reasons you presented when answering (@181) the second question (@110)? Yes.Larry Moran
October 26, 2015
October
10
Oct
26
26
2015
01:25 PM
1
01
25
PM
PDT
Dioisio asks, Do YOU know exactly HOW cell fate determinants are segregated during asymmetric mitosis, at least one case? No.Larry Moran
October 26, 2015
October
10
Oct
26
26
2015
01:22 PM
1
01
22
PM
PDT
Vy: in the other thread, the Zachs said: In the case of many adaptations, we can show they are random with respect to fitness. If so, it's a misstatement. Please point to the thread so we can make a correction.Zachriel
October 26, 2015
October
10
Oct
26
26
2015
12:44 PM
12
12
44
PM
PDT
Professor Moran, I'm trying to pick a specific subject for a deeper discussion, but first I would like to learn which topics are known better. That's why I'm asking a few questions before choosing the topic for further discussion.Dionisio
October 26, 2015
October
10
Oct
26
26
2015
10:38 AM
10
10
38
AM
PDT
Professor Larry Moran, While I wait for your reply to post 189, here’s the next Yes/No question: Do YOU know exactly HOW cell fate determinants are segregated during asymmetric mitosis, at least one case? Please, just answer YES or NO, without any additional explanation, comments or questions. Again, thank you for your willingness to graciously share your vast scientific knowledge here.Dionisio
October 26, 2015
October
10
Oct
26
26
2015
09:51 AM
9
09
51
AM
PDT
Nice catch Vy! Natural selection isn't random and is the only known cause for adaptation*. And yet adaptation is random wrt fitness. Evolutionary thought is so coherent *Futuyma tells us so in a bald declaration in his biology textbooksVirgil Cain
October 26, 2015
October
10
Oct
26
26
2015
09:32 AM
9
09
32
AM
PDT
1 2 3 8

Leave a Reply