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Jeffrey Shallit Demonstrates Again That He is Clueless About Even Very Basic Design Concepts

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Jeffrey Shallit has commented on his blog about UD’s 500-heads-in-a-row series (see here, here and here).  In his comment Shallit demonstrates that after all these years he remains clueless about even the basic ABCs of design theory.

Before we get to Shallit’s Romper Room errors, let me congratulate him on getting at least something right.  He refers to the concept of Kolmogorov complexity and writes:

If the string is compressible (as 500 consecutive H’s would be) then one can reject the chance hypothesis with high confidence; if the string is, as far as we can see, incompressible, we cannot.

Here Shallit agrees with our own Granville Sewell, who wrote in comment 4 to my “Jerad’s DDS” post:

The reason why 500 straight coins would raise eyebrows, and most other results, while equally improbable, would not, is easy: because “all heads” is simply describable, and most others are not (many would be describable only in 500 bits, by actually listing the result).

I take it that by “compressible” Shallit means the same thing as Sewell’s “simply describable.”

So far so good.  Shallit understands why one would reject the chance hypothesis for 500 heads in a row.  He then falls completely off the rails when he writes:

So Rickert and his defenders are simply wrong. But the ID advocates are also wrong, because they jump from ‘reject the fair coin hypothesis’ to ‘design’. This is completely unsubstantiated. For example, maybe the so-called ‘fair coin’ is actually weighted . . . Or maybe the flipping mechanism is not completely fair . . .

(emphasis added).

Can it really be that Shallit remains utterly clueless about the nature of the abductive inferences at the foundation of design theory?  From this statement one can only conclude that he is.  Shallit makes at least two errors.  Let’s examine them in turn.

Shallit’s first error comes when he states that if one sees 500 heads in a row it is “completely unsubstantiated” to conclude the game is rigged (i.e., to infer design).  This statement is ridiculous.  It is certainly a fact that there are explanations other than design that might possibly explain 500 heads in a row.  But can anyone doubt that “the game has been intentionally rigged” is at least one explanation?  To say that a design conclusion is “completely unsubstantiated” is aggressively stupid.

Perhaps Shallit means that it would be “completely unsubstantiated” to conclude that design – and only design – is the explanation for the 500 heads in a row.  If that’s what he means, he is certainly correct.  He is also certainly attacking a strawman, because no ID proponent has ever, as far as I know, said that when one makes a design inference one is obliged to conclude that only design could have caused the effect.

This is where abductive reasoning comes in.  As the Wikipedia article I linked explains, “In abductive reasoning . . . the premises do not guarantee the conclusion. One can understand abductive reasoning as ‘inference to the best explanation.’”

As has been explained countless times here at UD and other places, the design inference is abductive in nature. It is an inference to the best explanation.  No design theorist claims a design inference is absolutely compelled.  Turning to the 500 heads example, the design theorist says “the game is rigged” is the best explanation.  He does not, as Shallit seems to believe, say that “the game is rigged” is the only possible explanation.

In the 500 heads example one might ask if a design inference is permissible?  Certainly it is.  How could it not be?  This is why Shallit’s “completely unsubstantiated” comment is so silly.   One might ask if the design inference is valid?  It probably is.  From our experience of coin flipping it certainly appears to be the most likely explanation.  One might ask if the design inference is absolutely reliable?  No.  It is only the currently best explanation.  It remains tentative and subject to modification as more data is obtained.

Shallit commits his second error in the context of his alternative explanations to design (weighted coin; unfair mechanism).  Shallit’s seems to believe that his alternative explanations preclude design.  They do not.  The person who rigged the game may have done so through the means of a weighted coin or an unfair mechanism.  Shallit’s alternatives preclude design only if one assumes the coin was not intentionally weighted or that the flipping mechanism was not intentionally unfair.  Surely such an assumption is not required.  Indeed, from what we know about coin flipping in general, it is almost certainly not even warranted.

In  summary, Shallit has demonstrated once again that he does not understand design theory.  At least I hope that is what he has demonstrated, because the alternative is that he does understand design theory and has intentionally misrepresented it.  Charity compels me to conclude that he is clueless and not mendacious.

Comments
I think Meyer’s arguments about the irreducible complexity of the DNA translation/transcription system suffers from the same problem, as do semiotic arguments (Gitt, Upright Biped)
Your estimation stems from two things: 1) your ideological bias forces you to be inconsistent with material facts. If you are willing to contradict yourself within the space of a single sentence, then what can evidence do? 2) you refuse to educate yourself to the issues at hand, leaving considerable room to float among the "possibilities" that have no evidence in the real worldUpright BiPed
July 3, 2013
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Eric:
Thanks, Elizabeth, for your kind response. What makes you think that if life was designed it means we have to postulate an “immaterial” designer?
2 reasons: 1: A material designer would be likely to leave findable traces (tools, footprints) and so far we have no evidence for such 2: If we did find evidence (or posit) such a designer, that would merely raise question: who designed that designer? As Dembski said in that interview I part-transcribed:
But if, life itself, or the universe itself gives evidence – I stress that word evidence, because that’s what we are looking for, evidence of design, evidence of intelligence, then who or what could that intelligence be? And very quickly, we are pushed to the realm of theology, at that point, because such an intelligence could not be an evolved intelligence, and from a materialistic perspective, that’s what intelligence has to be
Eric:
Second, unless you argue that materialism is all there is, many would say that we too, as humans, have an “immaterial” mind. Yet somehow we are able to translate those immaterial thoughts and design plans into physical reality.
Yes indeed. For me it's one of the biggest arguments against immaterial minds - if immaterial minds exist, and interact with matter, then they are, by definition, a material force, albeit an as yet unknown one. However, if they do not interact with matter, then how do they have any observable effects?
Third, I appreciate your willingness to acknowledge that part of your concern is theological in nature. I’m not sure why an intermittent activity of a designer should bother anyone, but, hey, at least you acknowledge that it is a theological concern, not a scientific one.
It's not so much a theological "concern" as an irrelevance. If there really is/are immaterial designer(s) I want to know more, but I'd see no reason to call it/them "god(s)". I certainly don't think that rejecting the Design Inference entails rejecting the idea that the universe was designed by an almighty Deity, but nor do I think that were I to accept the Design Inference it would oblige me to worship the inferred designer(s). My concerns, in other words, are indeed, solely scientific. I don't think the Design Inference, as so far presented, is sound. I think CSI is circular; I think the functional versions of it are based on an inadequate null hypothesis: I think the 2nd Law argument is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of "order" in that context; I think that Behe's argument, though interesting, gives us, at best, reason to consider that possibly some things could not have evolved and to seek alternative explanations, but no reason to conclude definitively that they couldn't; and I think Meyer's arguments about the irreducible complexity of the DNA translation/transcription system suffers from the same problem, as do semiotic arguments (Gitt, Upright Biped); and that Meyer'sCambrian Explosion argument is based on a misunderstanding of phylogenetic analyses. But perhaps buried in the New Perspectives stack of papers is a killer argument I haven't read yet :) I shall keep reading.Elizabeth B Liddle
July 3, 2013
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Thanks, Elizabeth, for your kind response. What makes you think that if life was designed it means we have to postulate an "immaterial" designer? Second, unless you argue that materialism is all there is, many would say that we too, as humans, have an "immaterial" mind. Yet somehow we are able to translate those immaterial thoughts and design plans into physical reality. Third, I appreciate your willingness to acknowledge that part of your concern is theological in nature. I'm not sure why an intermittent activity of a designer should bother anyone, but, hey, at least you acknowledge that it is a theological concern, not a scientific one. Thanks,Eric Anderson
July 3, 2013
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Eric @ 86 Well, I'd disagree with your 2 :) But not for the reasons you give, at least in my case ("just an effort to find a cause — any cause — that isn’t an intelligent mind"). On the contrary, my professional interest is in "intelligent minds" (and before that, in "design" - so I'm perfectly cut out for ID research, I guess :)). My problem with C isn't that I don't like the idea (although theologically, I'd be disappointed to discover a Designer that only intermittently interfered with the world, and so was detectable, and would be uninclined to assign divinity status to i.e. worship such an entity), but that it requires us to postulate something that seems to me essentially incoherent, an oxymoron: an "immaterial" force that interacts with physical energy/matter. Still, we are finding common ground, and drilling down to where the true disagreements lie. This is good :) And appreciated. Cheers LizzieElizabeth B Liddle
July 1, 2013
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Elizabeth @63: Well, you almost got it right.
A:See body, observe body designing and making things: infer designer. B:See body, don’t observe body designing and making things: infer zombie. C:See no body, observe functional objects self assembling in ways not accountable by the laws of Physics and Chemistry: infer hitherto unknown intelligent Mind-force able to interact with matter D:See no body, observe things that look designed, see no evidence of any force not hitherto accounted for by the Laws of Physics: seek some alternate organisational principle that to a Mind. We are in the position of C or D – we have an apparently Designed Thing (an organism) and but no evidence of a physical fabricator. So most of us plump for D. However, some people plump for something more like C. Therefore, the C proponents should start looking for that fabrication force, if want to have a more persuasive case than D.
But you managed to leave out a couple of important factors. As a result C and D end up looking like more of a tossup than they really are. Specifically, we need to add: 1. Observe that we have millions of examples of systems with important characteristics similar to those found in living systems, and in every single case in which we know the origin of such systems, they are the result of an intelligent designer. 2. Observe that, in stark contrast, no coherent "alternative organizational principle" has ever been put forward. Indeed, note that law-like processes are, in principle, incapable of producing some of the kinds of critical systems found in life, including information-rich processing systems. When we actually start including all the facts, suddenly D doesn't seem like a very good selection. Indeed D seems like (and in many cases is explicitly admitted by its adherents to be) just an effort to find a cause -- any cause -- that isn't an intelligent mind. For some people the idea of life being the result of an intelligent designer is quite uncomfortable, so they will opt for D, not because of any rational reason for doing so, but in a desperate attempt to avoid C.Eric Anderson
July 1, 2013
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In that case, we cannot make any conclusions regarding design, by purely looking at the structure of the object, but this cannot be right. Even Dawkins agrees that we can recognize design, simply, by looking at the structure of the object.
If he says so, I think he is incorrect. I don't think he says so exactly though, because he also talks about things having "the appearance of design". But I am not a Dawkins fan. His science is out of date, and he gets things wrong. And makes poor arguments IMO. He can write well, but I wouldn't regard him as an authority.
I have a question for you, suppose for argument sake, we were designed by God, but we don’t know the details how how it is that God exists, we don’t know anything about God himself, his Nature, etc, we don’t know how God implemented his designs, now, would we be able to come to some conclusion of design if we had to stumble upon some of the things he did design?
It would depend on the nature of the putative God. If the God was the God I always had in mind when I was a theist, then God's handiwork would always be undetectable from within the universe. As my favorite (Dominican) theologian, Herbert McCabe wrote in God Matters:
Again, it is clear that God cannot interfere in the universe, not because he has not the power, but because, so to speak, he has too much; to interfere you have to be an alternative to, or alongside, what you are interfering with. If God is the cause of everything, there is nothing that he is alongside. Obviously God makes no difference to the universe; I mean by this that we do not appeal specifically to God to explain why the universe is this way rather than that, for this we need only appeal to explanations within the universe. For this reason there can, it seems to me, be no feature of the universe which indicates it is god-made. What God accounts for is theat the univese is there instead of nothing.
But a Designer who was more involved in the design and fabrication of some things than others, or who intervened occasionally, rather than being the substrate in which we "move and have our being", then we could devise testable hypotheses, and perhaps find out more about the Designer. I'd be less likely to call such a Designer "God", though, and would have no a priori reason to worship such a Designer. So theologically, I think an undetectable Designer makes more sense than a detectable one. But there may well be a detectable one. In which case we can completely ignore the theological implications and simply try to find out more about the putative Designer, and how and when it does what.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
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Elizabeth, You write: //Yes, I know. And I am saying that the inference is invalid.// In that case, we cannot make any conclusions regarding design, by purely looking at the structure of the object, but this cannot be right. Even Dawkins agrees that we can recognize design, simply, by looking at the structure of the object. I have a question for you, suppose for argument sake, we were designed by God, but we don't know the details how how it is that God exists, we don't know anything about God himself, his Nature, etc, we don't know how God implemented his designs, now, would we be able to come to some conclusion of design if we had to stumble upon some of the things he did design?Polanyi
June 28, 2013
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Having "The most reproductively successful variants will become more prevalent", doesn't do anything beyond that. And even that is relative. And darwinian evolution requires the variation to be a chance event. Darwin said it and Mayr confirmned it. And Mayr confirmed that natural selection is an eliminative process.Joe
June 27, 2013
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Hi Eric: I've finally read your links, and would like to make two comments, but first of all, I'd say that I don't think I don't radically disagree with anything you've said :) But here are my points: Firstly, I agree that natural selection is not a force. It's shorthand for a mechanism, or system. In other words it's higher-level description than a reductionist one, but then I'm not a reductionist! Systems, I'd argue, have properties not possessed by their constituent parts, and vice versa (cf: water has radically different properties than free hydrogen or free oxygen; an ocean wave has properties that are different from either air or water - and, in fact, is not composed of either but of the interface between them), and as a system I'd argue natural selection has some very remarkable properties, including creative design! (but we can argue about that). Also, I don't think it makes sense to separate it from variation, as in the common shorthand "RM+NS" (which in any case I used to read as Replication with Modification plus Natural Selection, which is better), as Natural Selection cannot occur without variation or modification. So adding them IS tautological. Which brings me to... Secondly: the issue of tautology. As you rightly say, it can be expressed non-tautologically. The best way IMO is as a probabilistic syllogism P1: Self-replicators replicate with variance P2: This variance is correlated with reproductive success C: The most reproductively successful variants will become more prevalent. When P1 and P2 are true, C will tend to result. That's why rather than "RM+NS" I go for "self-replication with heritable variation in reproductive success". That leaves open, as Denis Noble does, and Darwin did, the process by which variation is generated; it also leaves open the possibility that evolvability itself can evolve (by the same mechanism, at a higher unit of analysis). Thanks again for the links!Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Eric,
Well, now we see what happens when a single character is missing in a specified string.
Some mutations are deleterious. Ethers are relatively hormless. :-) Still others are distinctly advantageous. The other day I was trying to type
William is wedded to the idea...
...and it came out as...
William is welded to the idea...
keiths
June 27, 2013
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William:
So, what psi research have you examined and what quantum research have you read that leads you to believe such ideas are “bunk”?
Quite a few peer-reviewed papers on psi research, and at least one meta-analysis. Ther were a couple of research studies that looked as though they might have had an effect, but nothing I found persuasive, given the in-built "significance" bias in publication, and the results of the meta-analysis. I found many of the research protocols deeply flawed. I've also done a fiar bit of reading on NDEs and OBEs. They are interesting, but not, I think, evidence for the independence of mind and body. Regarding quantum mind stuff, I've read Penrose's Emperor's New Mind, and another one, forget the title. I'm not a physicist and I don't doubt he's sound on the physics. My objection to quantum mind stuff is the same as the objection I have to Libertarian free will - not that I don't believe in it but that I don't find it a coherent concept. Plus I don't think there's anything particularly weird about consciousness. I don't think it's a Hard Problem, just an ill-posed problem. But I could be persuaded by good evidence and a persuasive rebuttal. I have no ideological objection to it! It's definitely the way I'd go if I were an ID proponent, or more persuaded by the potential fruitfulness of the ID model.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Those and more. More interesting are actual engineering solutions, or software solutions that often exceed the ingenuity of any human designer.
1- We don't know what or even if it exceeds human ingenuity. 2- Humans designed the software 3- The software produced its result by design 4- The software was a tool designed by us so obviously it's result does not exceed our ingenuity as the tool is our extension.
But AVIDA is an excellent proof-of-concept, specifically because it shows that “IC” features can evolve via “IC pathways” of quite high degree, including quite steeply deleterious mutations.
AVIDA is a proof of concept if you ignore the fact it is nothing like biological evolution.Joe
June 27, 2013
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Dr. Liddle said:
My own view is that it is bunk, but I could be persuaded otherwise. I certainly don’t reject it on principle. It could work.
So, what psi research have you examined and what quantum research have you read that leads you to believe such ideas are "bunk"?
“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.” ? Max Planck
William J Murray
June 27, 2013
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Eric:
Presumably you are referring to something more substantive than Avida, or your 500 coin-toss example.
Those and more. More interesting are actual engineering solutions, or software solutions that often exceed the ingenuity of any human designer. But AVIDA is an excellent proof-of-concept, specifically because it shows that "IC" features can evolve via "IC pathways" of quite high degree, including quite steeply deleterious mutations.
Was it something that produced meaningfu amounts of new information under conditions that reasonably approximate real-world scenarios?
Depends how you define "new information" but if a solution to a problem that initially was not known, is new information (which I'd say by virtually any standards it is), yes to the first. But the in silico environment is nothing like the natural environment except in principle. There are certainly direct counterparts e.g. the critters reproduce, compete for resources, "mate" in some scenarios (recombine genomes) and compete for mates, and have randomly varying genomes; while the environment offers hazards and resources. Where they differ markedly is that they fitness landscape is way lower-dimensioned than the real world. But this is a limitation, not an advantage. The higher dimensnioned the fitness landscape the more routes there are across it, and the less likely a solution is to get stuck on local maxima. However, the overarching point I'd make is: we know that it makes sense logically (it's a near-syllogism) AND we know it works empirically (in virtual reality, lab and field). So there is no a priori reason to reject it because it "can't" do something or other. It's creative by any standards (comes up with novel solutions); it tells us how to do things we don't know how to do (i.e. generates information), and it is remarkably rapid (far more rapid than Darwin dreamed). Eric, I'm going to take a look at that essay of yours now, sorry I've been a while. Back with you shortly! PS@:
Well, now we see what happens when a single character is missing in a specified string. My bad. You’d think I could just type some random stuff and it would work, or perhaps be even better. :)
To take your little jest seriously: 1. Language is very brittle. For evolution to work, similar genotypes must produce similarly fit phenotypes. This tends not to be true of language, although it is a little bit true (your post was perfectly comprhensible). 2. when a phenotype is very fit, there are far more variants that will make it less fit than more. So if we starat with a very fit population (well adapted to its environment) most selection will be conservative - almost all variants will be deleteriousl and tend to be weeded out. However, if we start with an unfit population, far more variants will be advantageous than deleterious - and so adaptive evolution will tend to occur. I often graph my output, and it's remarkable how rapidly fitness increases through the first few generations. Then you go off for lunch, and when you get back, you've maybe moved up a single notch. And it can stay there for weeks! That's where having a few more dimensions really helps - to git off those local maxima.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Intelligent design begins with a seemingly innocuous question: Can objects, even if nothing is known about how they arose, exhibit features that reliably signal the action of an intelligent cause? Wm. Dembski
Yes, they can. Most, if not all, anti-IDists always try to force any theory of intelligent design to say something about the designer and the process involved BEFORE it can be considered as scientific. This is strange because in every use-able form of design detection in which there isn’t any direct observation or designer input, it works the other way, i.e. first we determine design (or not) and then we determine the process and/ or designer. IOW any and all of our knowledge about the process and/ or designer comes from first detecting and then understanding the design. IOW reality dictates the the only possible way to make any determination about the designer(s) or the specific process(es) used, in the absence of direct observation or designer input, is by studying the design in question. If anyone doubts that fact then all you have to do is show me a scenario in which the designer(s) or the process(es) were determined without designer input, direct observation or by studying the design in question. If you can't than shut up and leave the design detection to those who know what they are doing. This is a virtue of design-centric venues. It allows us to neatly separate whether something is designed from how it was produced and/ or who produced it (when, where, why):
“Once specified complexity tells us that something is designed, there is nothing to stop us from inquiring into its production. A design inference therefore does not avoid the problem of how a designing intelligence might have produced an object. It simply makes it a separate question.” Wm. Dembski- pg 112 of No Free Lunch
Stonehenge- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when. Nasca Plain, Peru- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when. Any artifact (archeology/ anthropology)- design determined; further research to establish how, by whom, why and when- that is unless we have direct observation and/ or designer input. Fire investigation- if arson is determined (ie design); further research to establish how, by whom, why and when- that is unless we have direct observation and/ or designer input. An artifact does not stop being an artifact just because we do not know who, what, when, where, why and how. But it would be stupid to dismiss the object as being an artifact just because no one was up to the task of demonstrating a method of production and/ or the designing agent. And even if we did determine a process by which the object in question may have been produced it does not follow that it will be the process used. Joe
June 27, 2013
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Elizabeth:
Yes, I know. And I am saying that the inference is invalid.
It does NOT matter what you say. It matters what you can demonstrate. What is invalid is for Lizzie to tell Intelligent Design it must do something that it was NOT formulated to do.
“Once specified complexity tells us that something is designed, there is nothing to stop us from inquiring into its production. A design inference therefore does not avoid the problem of how a designing intelligence might have produced an object. It simply makes it a separate question.” Wm. Dembski- pg 112 of No Free Lunch
Joe
June 27, 2013
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Well, now we see what happens when a single character is missing in a specified string. My bad. You'd think I could just type some random stuff and it would work, or perhaps be even better. :) The quoted part from Elizabeth in #73 ends after the first sentence.Eric Anderson
June 27, 2013
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I’ve observed evolutionary processes inventing cool stuff in silico, so I know it works in principle. Presumably you are referring to something more substantive than Avida, or your 500 coin-toss example. Was it something that produced meaningfu amounts of new information under conditions that reasonably approximate real-world scenarios?
Eric Anderson
June 27, 2013
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Polanyi:
We infer design, purely, based on the nature of the physical effects.
Yes, I know. And I am saying that the inference is invalid. Not wrong, invalid. It's a neat idea, but to test it, you'd need to hypothesis some kind of interaction between Mind and Matter, and test it. William has had a go, so has BA77. But mostly, ID proponents seem to ignore the question on principle, merely asserting, as you do, that we don't need anything other than the pattern itself. I disagree, and so do most people, for good reason - the inference is made by analogy (from human design) yet lacks at least one key component of human design: means of implementation. For ID to be true, the postulated Designer had to cause to come together a living cell from non-living parts, and/or cause certain molecular components of the cell to come together to form DNA sequences that would not otherwise have done so. This is a necessary implication from the postulate. Without some kind of proposal for when, where, or how this could have happened, the ID hypothesis has a gaping hole in it, the notorious "poof" part. To be persuasive relative to some non-poof-positing hypothesis, we need some fleshing out of the "poof" :)Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Elizabeth: //Sure, you need the artefact to decide whether it was designed! You can’t infer that a non-existent artefact was designed!// Not where I was going :) , a randomly chopped piece of rock is not designed. People slamming rocks is not evidence that they are intelligently designing anything, it is not evidence of intelligence, we don't infer that sculptures are designed --> because we have seen people sculpting in the past. This is simply not how the design inference works. We infer design, purely, based on the nature of the physical effects. The same physical effects we see in nature, that we know could not be the product of humans, for obvious reasons.Polanyi
June 27, 2013
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William:
Is gravity a force? If so, it should be detectable. Is gravity detectable in any way other than in observing how “it” affects material phenomena? IOW, is gravity directly detectable? Can we observe it affecting matter, or do we just observe how matter behaves and attribute it to “gravity” – whatever it may actually be?
Exactly. So, if Mind is a force, in addition to the three other fundamental forces of the universe, it should be detectable - we should be able to observe its effect on the movement of molecules in a cell, or ions in a brain. So why the reluctance to look?
There is already a good concept out there about how mind affects matter. BA77 has made many such contributions. There are dualistic interpretations of the observer effect and wave collapse in quantum physics – that consciousness is a fundamentally existent aspect of reality that is required to collapse quantum potentials into actualities. Some of the giants of quantum theory have agreed with this dualistic position – that mind, or consciousness, must be considered a fundamental commodity not reducible to matter.
Yes, as I think I've said, BA is one of the few people to actually tackle this. But it's not something I ever see in the research agenda of the Discovery Institute. I'd expect them to be in the forefront of psi research, for instance. But that would mean actually investigating the nature of the designer, which ID seems ideologically opposed to doing. And I'd have to say that would be more persuaded by BA's citations if they were not to videos, but to actual properly conducted verifiable research. I implicitly suspect videos because to cite them, you have to make a transcript. I'm not bad at making transcripts but it is very time-consuming. I'm driven to suspect that the reason so much of the evidence that BA cites is presented on video is precisely because it is so tedious to examine.
If observation is necessary to collapse quantum states into particular arrangements, materialism has an insurmountable “chicken and egg” causal problem, which can only be solved if there is a non-physical observing consciousness beyond any brain state.
Yes, and I think the best approach to a properly founded ID science would be via quantum theories of mind. My own view is that it is bunk, but I could be persuaded otherwise. I certainly don't reject it on principle. It could work. And that's exactly what I'm suggesting ID proponents should do, rather than making mathematically and statistically indefensible probability arguments. Nagel has the right idea, I think. But if it works, you may find that the Designer doesn't have the qualities you hope for. That's the danger of science! tbh, I could be persuaded that the universe had a Mind, of which ours are tiny facets, and that Mind was a force, in principle at least. But before I worshipped such a mind, I'd like to check I approved of its moral choices. If I didn't, I wouldn't call it "God" however powerful. I'd continue to worship my own.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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You seem to be confusing what is necessary and what is sufficient. Sure, you need the artefact to decide whether it was designed! You can't infer that a non-existent artefact was designed! But I'm saying is that if all you have is the alleged artefact, then in order to infer that it is designed, you also have to posit that it was fabricated to that design. And to do that you have at least to hypothesis some way in which the Designing Mind moved the constituent stuff into the designed configuration. Which means a mind-directed force. When I sculpt an object (I did a little woodcarving once) I use my arms and hands and chisel and my wrist aches. If I did not have arms and hands and chisels and wrist, and they did not exert such force as to make my wrist ache, then there would be no sculpture. We have, as our explanandum, a sculpture (biological organisms). ID proponents suggest a Designer as the origin. Fine. But in so doing they imply some counterpart to the arms, hands, chisel and muscles that a Mind needs in order to execute a Design. What are they? And how would we set about looking for traces of their action?Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Elizabeth, you went wrong here: //A:See body, observe body designing and making things: infer designer.// This shows that you are indeed missing Reid's point :) We don't recognize design because we see people designing things, someone chopping at a piece of rock says nothing about design, unless you can see the object itself. Only then, can you tell, if this is intelligent design in progress.Polanyi
June 27, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle asks:
If Mind can move things, it is a force, in addition to the forces we know about, and should be detectable. If it is not a force, then we should start looking for evidence of workmanship by physical entities with minds – and then we must also form a hypothesis about what created those physical entities with minds.
Is gravity a force? If so, it should be detectable. Is gravity detectable in any way other than in observing how "it" affects material phenomena? IOW, is gravity directly detectable? Can we observe it affecting matter, or do we just observe how matter behaves and attribute it to "gravity" - whatever it may actually be? There is already a good concept out there about how mind affects matter. BA77 has made many such contributions. There are dualistic interpretations of the observer effect and wave collapse in quantum physics - that consciousness is a fundamentally existent aspect of reality that is required to collapse quantum potentials into actualities. Some of the giants of quantum theory have agreed with this dualistic position - that mind, or consciousness, must be considered a fundamental commodity not reducible to matter. If observation is necessary to collapse quantum states into particular arrangements, materialism has an insurmountable "chicken and egg" causal problem, which can only be solved if there is a non-physical observing consciousness beyond any brain state.William J Murray
June 27, 2013
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Well Elizabeth is proving why materialists don't have any credibility.Joe
June 27, 2013
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Elizabeth:
I’ve observed evolutionary processes inventing cool stuff in silico, so I know it works in principle.
No Lizzie, you observed intelligent design evolutionary processes inventing cool stuff.Joe
June 27, 2013
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Elizabeth:
Therefore, if we are to infer Design as the possible cause of a pattern, we must not only postulate a Mind, but a fabrication mechanism.
That is false. The way to the fabrication process is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. IOW Lizzie still doesn't know what she is talking about.
That’s what I’m asking ID proponents to consider before they conclude that “Designer” is the best explanation for a pattern.
Unfortunately for you we know better.
This is exactly analogous to the argument people make about evolution when they say: OK, evolution might be able to do all these things given a population of self-replicating cells, or given a population of worms, or whatever, but you need to explain the first population before we will buy your theory, and evolution can’t explain the ribosome, or whatever.
No, it isn't analogous to that. Ya see Lizzie how living organisms evolved is directly linked to how it arose in the first place. But how something was designed is not doirectly linked to its being designed. We can only figure how by studying it. And even then we may b=never figure out exactly how. We don't know exactly how Stonehenge was built.
I am saying: OK, Designers can design cool things, but unless you give me some kind of hypothesis about how the components of those cool things were moved into the designed configuration in the first place, I am not going to buy your theory.
Only a scientifically illiterate person would say such a thing. How comes after. It always has unless there is direct observational evidence.
In other words: if the Design hypothesis is going to have legs, it needs to go beyond the idea that a Mind dreamed it up, and postulate how the design was implemented in matter.
No, Lizzie. In the absence of direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence. What part of that don't you understand, Lizzie? Heck darwinism can't provide anything beyond natural selection- vague and void of details.Joe
June 27, 2013
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I think you missed Reid’s point, the fact that I can see your body, is not evidence that you (an intelligent mind) exists, I can only know u exist based on the nature of the physical patterns you induce.
No, I didn't miss that point. I agree with it. You know that I have a mind because of my behaviour. But if you didn't see me behaving, all you saw was something you postulated I'd designed, and there was no other evidence for my existence at all, nor any hypothesis regarding the forces my mind induce to act on matter in order to produce the design - then your inference would be unsupported. Put it this way: A:See body, observe body designing and making things: infer designer. B:See body, don't observe body designing and making things: infer zombie. C:See no body, observe functional objects self assembling in ways not accountable by the laws of Physics and Chemistry: infer hitherto unknown intelligent Mind-force able to interact with matter D:See no body, observe things that look designed, see no evidence of any force not hitherto accounted for by the Laws of Physics: seek some alternate organisational principle that to a Mind. We are in the position of C or D - we have an apparently Designed Thing (an organism) and but no evidence of a physical fabricator. So most of us plump for D. However, some people plump for something more like C. Therefore, the C proponents should start looking for that fabrication force, if want to have a more persuasive case than D.
Similarly, we can infer and know that a transcendent mind, or a mind responsible for the designs in nature exist, based on the nature of the physical effects we observe.
Only by extrapolating beyond the range of your data! We know that people have minds and people design and make things. We do not know that non-people have minds, or that anything that can design and make things exists. Therefore, to gain credibility, ID proponents need to seek evidence for the action of Minds on matter that is not mediated by muscles and tools. If it were me, I'd start looking for a Life Force. Or possibly, make the argument (not one I've seen) that just as Mind moves ions around in and out of neural ion channels in brains, it can move ions around in inanimate molecules and cause them to form self-reproducing cells. I'd dispute the premise, but many wouldn't, and it potentially opens up testable hypotheses. And it's quite a nice model - it means that the entire universe is the brain of the Designer!Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Thanks, Polanyi, but I disagree that they are "irrelevant in so far as design detection goes". For a design to be instantiated in an object or pattern which we then must explain, that object must be not only designed, but fabricated according to the design - as I keep saying Stuff must be moved around. Therefore, if we are to infer Design as the possible cause of a pattern, we must not only postulate a Mind, but a fabrication mechanism. That's what I'm asking ID proponents to consider before they conclude that "Designer" is the best explanation for a pattern. This is exactly analogous to the argument people make about evolution when they say: OK, evolution might be able to do all these things given a population of self-replicating cells, or given a population of worms, or whatever, but you need to explain the first population before we will buy your theory, and evolution can't explain the ribosome, or whatever. I am saying: OK, Designers can design cool things, but unless you give me some kind of hypothesis about how the components of those cool things were moved into the designed configuration in the first place, I am not going to buy your theory. If Mind can move things, it is a force, in addition to the forces we know about, and should be detectable. If it is not a force, then we should start looking for evidence of workmanship by physical entities with minds - and then we must also form a hypothesis about what created those physical entities with minds. In other words: if the Design hypothesis is going to have legs, it needs to go beyond the idea that a Mind dreamed it up, and postulate how the design was implemented in matter. No? Clearly living things are assembled according to an organisational principle, but under the "Materialist" model, the assembly is achieved by means of known physico-chemical forces, and the organisation is achieved through the natural organising principle of Darwinian evolution (albeit presupposing that some other principle got Darwinian evolution started, but we postulate chemistry and physics for that) In contrast ID suggests an organisational principle (Mind-Design) but no assembly principle at all. So far. Neither theory is exhaustive, but why should I adopt the one with the bigger (in my view!) hole? Design is possible, but not probable unless there's at least some assembly hypothesis on the table.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 27, 2013
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Elizabeth, You ask interesting and important questions, but it is important to note that they are irrelevant in so far as design detection goes, how we know other minds exist is independent of the question regarding how it is possible that those minds exist, or how such a mind chooses to implement his/her designs. First the question is, how do we know other minds exist, how do we know intelligent beings exist, enter Thomas Reid.Polanyi
June 27, 2013
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