Part of this talking past one another is perhaps an unwillingness to acknowledge the validity of others ways of knowing. The materialist is driven by a need to understand everything, including how he knows things.

There is no difference in principle between scientific measurements today and the ancient Sumerians weighing out silver using a balance. This is all of science: measuring physical properties.

Now, Ask a materialist how much love he has for someone and he may try to do a ‘blood hormone count’ or measure brain activity or something, rather than admit there is no scientific answer.

Most people (especially this time of year in the west) will admit that what they most desire is a steady supply of exactly what the materialist claims are only illusions: Faith, Hope, and Love. People kill themselves every day for lack of them.

(BTW- this relates to the soul/spirit debate because these attributes/qualities exist as realities in the same “place” and in a similar way.)

I categorically reject the idea that these are only illusions based simply because science can’t access their properties. I can see and sense their effects. And I “feel” them in a way that only partially involves my physical body.

This is the reason why one will never convince a determined materialist of the existence of any reality that is not at least (in principle) scientifically measurable . Simply because how one knows about this reality is not within rational comprehension.

Yes, I have been reading way too much SciFi.

There’s no such thing as reading too much SciFi!

I’ll be able to say I spent my living Sundays living life with family/friends/nature instead of inside listening to stories of the past

LOL – you’ll say it to who? You’re an atheist and if you’re right you won’t be saying anything to anyone after you’re dead.

The next flaw in this argument is presuming that friends/family aren’t in church with you on Sunday morning. This is usually NOT true as families usually attend church together and most people who attend church also have friends within the church. This makes me doubt you’ve ever actually been a member of a Christian church as the social aspects of getting together with friends and family is one of the major attractions.

On the nature part, I’ve been to many church functions held outdoors although typically not Sunday morning services but even there there are exceptions.

Not quite. Nonsense is certainly not possible. For an object to be A and non-A at the same time violates reason. For the “forces of nature” to be overriden by an event in a more fundamental reality upon which this spacetime depends is not logical nonsense. It is easy to see how it is possible.

In that sense; you are saying the possibility of anything is a rational idea. It’s rational to think that everything I know of life is all a figment of my imagination as I lie in a coma? It’s rational to think that dogs talk when people aren’t around? It’s rational to think that I could fly if I thought about it enough?

I think you need to look up the definition of “rational” and “reasonable.”

I didn’t say miracles were most likely, or that they even occur. Only that the possibility of them is a rational idea.

I think you may have something there.

Observe the effects that the people who claim to have souls and who behave in ways traditionally thought to be good for the soul have on those around them and compare it to the effect of those who claim not to have souls or behave in ways traditionally thought to be bad for the soul.

Record the results.

Just because I’m unsure of the idea of a soul doesn’t mean I still don’t believe in a god. Totally different concepts.

How can you test for something that’s immaterial?

Assuming such a thing exists we might not be able to interact with it directly and manipulate it but we might be capable of observing its effects on normal matter. Perhaps “souls” are energistic imprints of formulated neural arrays onto a dimensional substrata that can interact to varying degrees.

Yes, I have been reading way too much SciFi.

I’m certain I have a soul and I’m certain you have one. But if you’re not sure why be an atheist?