Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Intelligent Design and the Demarcation Problem

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One common objection which is often raised regarding the proposition of real design (as opposed to design that is only apparent) is the criticism that design is unable to be falsified by the ruthless rigour of empirical scrutiny. Science, we are told, must restrict its explanatory devices to material causes. This criterion of conformity to materialism as a requisite for scientific merit is an unfortunate consequence of a misconstrual of the principal of uniformitarianism with respect to the historical sciences. Clearly, a proposition – if it is to be considered properly scientific – must constrict its scope to categories of explanation with which we have experience. It is this criterion which allows a hypothesis to be evaluated and contrasted with our experience of that causal entity. Explanatory devices should not be abstract, lying beyond the scope of our uniform and sensory experience of cause-and-effect.

This, naturally, brings us on to the question of what constitutes a material cause. Are all causes, which we have experience with, reducible to the material world and the interaction of chemical reactants? It lies as fundamentally axiomatic to rationality that we be able to detect the presence of other minds. This is what C.S. Lewis described as “inside knowledge”. Being rational agents ourselves, we have an insider’s knowledge of what it is to be rational – what it is to be intelligent. We know that it is possible for rational beings to exist and that such agents leave behind them detectable traces of their activity. Consciousness is a very peculiar entity. Consciousness interacts with the material world, and is detectable by its effects – but is it material itself? I have long argued in favour of substance dualism – that is, the notion that the mind is itself not reducible to the material and chemical constituents of the brain, nor is it reducible to the dual forces of chance and necessity which together account for much of the other phenomena in our experience. Besides the increasing body of scientific evidence which lends support to this view, I have long pondered whether it is possible to rationally reconcile the concept of human autonomy (free will) and materialistic reductionism with respect to the mind. I have thus concluded that free will exists (arguing otherwise leads to irrationality or reductio ad absurdum) and that hence materialism – at least with respect to the nature of consciousness – must be false if rationality is to be maintained.

My reasoning can be laid out as follows:

1: If atheism is true, then so is materialism.

2: If materialism is true, then the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

3: If the mind is reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain, then human autonomy and consciousness are illusory because our free choices are determined by the dual forces of chance and necessity.

4: Human autonomy exists.

From 3 & 4,

5: Therefore, the mind is not reducible to the chemical constituents of the brain.

From 2 & 5,

6: Therefore, materialism is false.

From 1 & 6,

7: Therefore, atheism is false.

Now, where does this leave us? Since we have independent reason to believe that the mind is not reducible to material constituents, materialistic explanations for the effects of consciousness are not appropriate explanatory devices. How does mind interact with matter? Such a question cannot be addressed in terms of material causation because the mind is not itself a material entity, although in human agents it does interact with the material components of the brain on which it exerts its effects. The immaterial mind thus interacts with the material brain to bring about effects which are necessary for bodily function. Without the brain, the mind is powerless to bring about its effects on the body. But that is not to say that the mind is a component of the brain.

We have further independent reason to expect a non-material cause when discussing the question of the origin of the Universe. Being an explanation for the existence of the natural realm itself – complete with its contingent natural laws and mathematical expressions – natural law, with which we have experience, cannot be invoked as an explanatory factor without reasoning in a circle (presupposing the prior existence of the entity which one is attempting to account for). When faced with explanatory questions with respect to particular phenomena, then, the principle of methodological materialism breaks down because we possess independent philosophical reason to suppose the existence of a supernatural (non-material) cause.

Material causes are uniformly reducible to the mechanisms and processes of chance (randomness) and necessity (law). Since mind is reducible to neither of those processes, we must introduce a third category of explanation – that is, intelligence.

When we look around the natural world, we can distinguish between those objects which can be readily accounted for by the dual action of chance and necessity, and those that cannot. We often ascribe such latter phenomena to agency. It is the ability to detect the activity of such rational deliberation that is foundational to the ID argument.

Should ID be properly regarded as a scientific theory? Yes and no. While ID theorists have not yet outlined a rigorous scientific hypothesis as far as the mechanistic process of the development of life (at least not one which has attracted a large body of support), ID is, in its essence, a scientific proposition – subject to the criteria of empirical testability and falsifiability. To arbitrarily exclude such a conclusion from science’s explanatory toolkit is to fundamentally truncate a significant portion of reality – like trying to limit oneself to material processes of randomness and law when attempting to explain the construction of a computer operating system.

Since rational deliberation characteristically leaves patterns which are distinguishable from those types of patterns which are left by non-intelligent processes, why is design so often shunned as a non-scientific explanation – as a ‘god-of-the-gaps’ style argument? Assuredly, if Darwinism is to be regarded as a mechanism which attempts to explain the appearance of design by non-intelligent processes (albeit hitherto unsuccessfully), it follows by extension that real design must be regarded as a viable candidate explanation. To say otherwise is to erect arbitrary parameters of what constitutes a valid explanation and what doesn’t. It is this arbitrarily constraints on explanation which leads to dogmatism and ideology – which, I think, we can all agree is not the goal or purpose of the scientific enterprise.

Comments
Stephen (and others): A bit of a footnote . . . After a busy hurricane weekend (after he passed by [12" of rain in 12 hours or so], Eric hit Cat 4, and his little sister Fiona is following); with what is now a back-up machine. You are right. For, without judgement -- a cognitively based act, decisions will not be made, and without ability to choose towards a goal or purpose, we cannot construct thoughts in verbal symbolic language. That is the cognitive and volitional are deeply intertwined with consciousness -- and conscience [the candle of duty] -- in the unified I. The soul if you will. Similarly, you are right that the sovereignty of God is entirely compatible with the ability of man to think, judge, decide and act, however constrained the degree of action. For instance, yes, as finite, fallible [and often erring], morally-spiritually fallen people, it is not in our gift to walk without sin, here the harmful self-willed acts that violate right and above all our duties not only of care but of love [the theologians would say: first to God, then to fellow man and to creation which God has made us stewards over]. But in the end, David and Solomon are right in that introductory primer on right living for the serious minded young man that opens the Proverbs:
Prov 4: 5 Get wisdom, get understanding; do not forget my words or swerve from them. 6 Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. 7 Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, [a] get understanding. 8 Esteem her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you. 9 She will set a garland of grace on your head and present you with a crown of splendor . . . . " 14 Do not set foot on the path of the wicked or walk in the way of evil men. 15 Avoid it, do not travel on it; turn from it and go on your way. 16 For they cannot sleep till they do evil; they are robbed of slumber till they make someone fall. 17 They eat the bread of wickedness and drink the wine of violence. 18 The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day. 19 But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble. [That is, they have become ever more endarkened and deceived, confusing darkness for light, whence the principle that repentance -- change of heart and direction of life towards the light, is the first step to spiritual renewal and blessing . . . ] 20 My son, pay attention to what I say; listen closely to my words. 21 Do not let them out of your sight, keep them within your heart; 22 for they are life to those who find them and health to a man's whole body. 23 Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life . . .
"Heart" of course is the unified consciously aware inner man, again. And in speaking about purposing towards wisdom, guarding the heart and who one allows to instruct it, as well as the path and associates one chooses, Solomon, echoing his father [cf. vv 3 - 4], is emphasising that -- by God's many prior gracious blessings -- we do have a duty and capacity to choose a way, stumble as we will in it. Thus the image of graduality: gleamings that slowly -- often, imperceptibly -- increase and accumulate to the full light of day. Thirdly, you are again right that there is no need to impose an iron grid of determinism on the Judaeo-Christian worldview, or how we read and understand the Scriptures; which leads to -- sorry to have to be fairly direct -- many strange consequences that hint that there is a basic error here. Instead, at every turn we are invited to understand that we are volitionally and cognitively active, responsible, reformable, renewable creatures who have lost our way, and the Good Shepherd has come seeking for us and calling out after us. Indeed, laying down his life for us. But also, all of this is laced with many pointers to the issue that is so central in design thought: we experience and observe ourselves to be unified "I's" that have purposes, make observations understand [and sometimes misunderstand], judge, decide and act, giving direction to contingent clusters of objects, towards creating function. Thus, complex functional organisation and associated information emerge as routinely observed, empirically reliable -- notice how after hundreds of comments we still cannot see a cogent counter-instance [which is plainly a big part of why we have all this speculative argument intended to dismiss or deflect the concepts of purpose, judgement, decision and design] -- signs that point to design, that purposefully directed contingency that creates desired function. We plainly have every epistemic right to infer from functionally specific complex organisation to the signified causal factor, design. Even, per the Newton-Lyell-Darwin uniformity principle, where we did not directly see the causal process at work. And so, after many loops of discussion, we are back at the conclusion: the inference to design on functionally specific complex organisation pointing to directed contingency as causal process, is reasonable, empirically based and empirically and logically well-warranted. Thus, when we see the digital information system in the living cell, we are entitled to infer to design. When we see the increments in information to account for body plans we are again entitled to infer to design. And when we see that he cosmos in which we observe such signs of design is also finely tuned and functionally balanced in its underlying physics in ways that facilitate C-chemistry cell based life, we are again entitled to infer to design. That cluster of design inferences is based on testable -- and hitherto abundantly confirmed -- empirical warrant on the principle that a reliable sign points to its signified, here, the signified causal process, intelligently and purposefully directed contingency. That further points to issues beyond science, as it is plainly credible on a worldview level inference to best explanation, that an extra-cosmic intelligent and powerful designer is responsible for the cosmos and thence for life and intelligent life -- including ourselves -- in it. That that may be uncomfortable to the currently institutionally dominant party in many aspects of science [especially on origins] is a further fact, but that is a matter of how the evidence intersects with an ideology and its associated preferred paradigms, not an issue of the science proper. It is further interesting that the reactions have consistently come in the form, not of counter-evidence, but on a priori grounds, as Lewontin and the US national Academy of Sciences demonstrate. Even, to attempts to redefine science as applied materialism. Should not science be an unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) progressive pursuit of the truth about our world based on observational evidence, experiment, analysis and discussion among the informed? Okay, a footnote. At the end of a long thread. G'day all . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 31, 2010
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Well, everyone, as I indicated long ago, the will, like the intellect is a faculty, and it is impossible to understand man's volitional nature apart from his rational nature even though each is clearly distinct from the other. I have made that point several times to refute a number errors, but apparently no one appreciates the significance of the point. Further, I have asked at least a half-dozen follow up questions, all of which were either evaded or ignored. So, I do not share the conviction of many that we have made much progress. Indeed, so far as I can tell, bloggers continue to confuse God's sovereignty, which is compatible with man's free will, with "determinism," which, by definition is not. At any rate, since the determinists and compatibilists among us insist that they have no power to change their destiny, I can only hope that their destiny is good to them.StephenB
August 30, 2010
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click on tgpeeler on any of the posts I've made and that links to my "blog." My email address is there. Can't wait to hear from you.tgpeeler
August 30, 2010
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tgp thanks for the great conversation. I too want to echo Green "thank you again to everyone here for such a great discussion: esp. gp, molch, GREEN, clive and tgp – you’ve helped me clarify my own thinking on several issues. It’s been a great! – and surely a record at 706 posts" tgp how does one go about contacting you offline? Thanks Vividvividbleau
August 29, 2010
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Green: I share your feelings: this has been a great thread. Thank you for your final, and very fair, summary of our reciprocal positions. I will add nothing to it. Thank you to you, and to all those who have participated. It's been fun, of the best kind.gpuccio
August 29, 2010
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The problem is, restated: How can God be sovereign and at the same time, man make choices for which he is accountable? At least that is the question on the table as I understand it. The first thing that phrasing the question this way corrects is the (I have come to see) confusing use of the term "free will." For not even God has "free will." God cannot be irrational, sin, or change His nature, to give three examples. So I think it is appropriate to discard the term "free will." The next thing that crops up is that we are restricted by our natures to certain actions. This ground has been covered and I see no need to retrace. So now we get to the core of this problem. What is our nature? Christians have at least two testimonies, our hearts and Scripture. I only need the first testimony, as all people, except for sociopaths and worse, know that we are imperfect and flawed, and dare I say it, sinners. On a Christian view, we are created in the image of God. I take that to mean, without getting overly theological, that we are self-aware, thinking, choosing, and morally accountable beings. We are also "fallen." That is, our natures have been damaged (or destroyed, some would say) by the fall. Well, which is it? Damaged or destroyed? It seems that damaged is the correct word to use. If my mind was destroyed then I couldn't think at all. But I can think. Therefore my mind was not destroyed. If my conscience was destroyed I'd never have a pang of guilt, but I do have pangs of guilt (hi molch) so my conscience is not destroyed. I think the same argument can be made for the function of the will. If my will was destroyed, then I couldn't choose anything. But in order to think or communicate AT ALL in any way, shape, or form, I have to choose to organize symbols in a certain way. So I can choose, so my will is not destroyed, only damaged. The upshot of this damage is that by our own nature we will never seek God (Romans 3:10-12, John 3:19, etc...) we will NEVER seek out God on our own. However, He seeks every human being out. (1 Timothy 2:3-4, John 12:32, etc...) Since God desires that all men be saved, but all men are not saved, how can we account for that? I say rebellion against the drawing and coaxing of God gives us the answer. This drawing probably manifests itself as intellectual or rational appeals or perhaps even appeals to the emotion/conscience. Romans 1 eloquently explains this and says that men are without excuse. We all have ample evidence for the existence of God. The fact that repeated rejection of the truth eventually results in a hardened state in which my freedom to choose the truth has finally been destroyed is also accommodated by this view. For me, this picture covers all of the theological bases without making a monster of God or a God of man. When the offer of salvation is put before any human being, I am pretty sure, perhaps even close to positive, that is a genuine offer that is fully within the ability of the offeree to accept. Otherwise the offer of John 3:16 rings hollow to me. I will shut up on this now and if anyone want to continue offline I am HAPPY to do that as this is far, far, away from the last word, I am sure. Best... $0.02tgpeeler
August 29, 2010
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Gpuccio @ 691 & 692: Thanks for your final thoughts:) I think I'd still maintain that quantum theory is descriptive rather than explanatory, since I've never heard anyone explain why a photon goes through slit B and not slit A, or why in the EPR experiment the spin state of the two photons are correlated. But I can see your point, though. It occurred to me today that one could perhaps make a case for the disparity between causation and explanation using some of the literature from the philosophy of causation. I recall reading once that some claim that causation does not exist in fundamental physics, and that when you reach the bottom of nature, you don't have causation; all you have is evolution of a system through time. I don't recall the details, but I think that if a strong case could be made for this, then it might illustrate the disparity between causation and explanation (since one would surely not deny that explanations no longer existed either). So although this is a topic for another thread, it does illustrate that even if I reject your claim that QM is explanatory, there might be other grounds you could argue from. So where does this leave libertarianism and moral responsiblity? I think we have agreed on one 'it just does', namely that libertarianism 'just does' give you agential control. But with regards to agential-causation and whether libertarianism 'just does' get you it, we have reached different conclusions. You have argued that we have no reason to accept the parity thesis, so you can reject the second 'just does'. And for the reasons just given above, I'm now not 100% sure on the matter. As you know, I'm not satisfied with even one 'just does' ;-) - but I know there are very clever and intelligent people who are, and who hold that libertarianism does ground moral responsibility. So perhaps we can be satisfied with the conclusion that there are equally competent people on both sides. How does that sound? And before I go, thank you again to everyone here for such a great discussion: esp. gp, molch, mivid, clive and tgp - you've helped me clarify my own thinking on several issues. It's been a great! - and surely a record at 706 posts :)Green
August 29, 2010
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Vivid: I am sorry, but this will go nowhere profitable. I trust this can be ended now. G'day GEM of TKI PS: I ask you to try to understand why I feel forced against my wishes, to point where it seems there are some significant problems, and why I keep finding myself forced to point to a synod that is not one of the high moments of church governance [as in, in absentia trial by opponents, leading to exile . . . ] as a point where a lot of the misperceptions started.kairosfocus
August 29, 2010
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"If you wish to have an email discussion with me or to have a discussion at either my blog or maybe TGP’s blog (with his permission), we could do that. Follow up my contact-me through my handle in the LH column, please." But thats just it KF I dont wish to have an email discussion with you on this. I have no interest in changing your view. Other than some back and forth comments between you and I about Arminius and Dort I have refrained from discussing the subject with you altogether. I have also strived to couch all my thoughts and observations as not to offend anyone’s sensibilities yet you keep injecting all the reasons you think you are right. Lets just take your last post. Do you not think I that if I was inclined to I could answer each and everyone of your objections ? I can but I choose not to because I am not interested in changing anyone views. On the other hand you most certainly are interested in changing mine otherwise you would not inject yourself into a conversation that was not directed towards you. I am the one trying to avoid a theological discussion with you , but you keep engaging me, all the while I am desperately trying to disengage discussing anything theologically with you. Then you have the temerity to admonish me when you say “enough again” Sheesh!! Vivid .vividbleau
August 29, 2010
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Vivid: This is again drifting into a theological exchange that neither advances the real issues for this blog or thread, nor will it have a reasonable prospect of deciding people committed to theological positions debated for centuries. What can be done, is to point out enough that those who want to go further, can do so, elsewhere; and also to correct basic, common misconceptions [which on this matter, currently tend to be directed at Arminians, with mischaracterisations that trace all the way to the Synod of Dort]. If you wish to have an email discussion with me or to have a discussion at either my blog or maybe TGP's blog (with his permission), we could do that. Follow up my contact-me through my handle in the LH column, please. What I will say here is that the vulture/rabbit example tends to beg the question of when one is regenerated [relevant to the irresistible grace claim]. Secondly, I have already pointed out a specific text that gives some awareness that faith cannot scripturally be deemed a "work," and points out that justification conditioned on trusting God who justifies the wicked, in a context of Abraham's trusting God and THIS TRUST being imputed as if it were righteousness. When such are multiplied by the remark in Gal 3 [and the incident in Ac 10:43 on in light of the Council in Ac 15:7 - 9 which were discussed far above in the thread] on receiving the Spirit by faith, should make the "timeline" of conversion clear enough. Which will in turn make it clear that there is a serious question-mark on the biblical warrant for claims that regeneration precedes and triggers penitent faith. As to the status of finite, fallible, fallen and too often ill-willed sinners -- us, it should be clear enough just from Arminius and the remonstrants above [cf Article III as cited], that there is a tendency to caricature Arminians, much less Biblical-inductive thinkers as though they were semi-pelegian. But, while there are indeed semi-pelegians and beyond out there, this is again a disappointingly common caricature. Explicitly, rebellious, sinful man is "dead in trespasses and sins," where "death" here speaks to alienation from God, the source of all that is good. In his love God reaches out to us,and sent his Son to be our substitute so that he can be just and justifier of the wicked. Given our willful blindness to truth and tendency to run from the light for the dark corners for fear that our evil will be exposed, he has sent his Spirit to stir us to conviction, calling us to and enabling us to have the opportunity to repent. (And all of this -- save for the specific use of the imagery of death -- has already been explicitly said, so it should never have come up again.) So, I ask for us to return to a more relevant focus for this blog. Enough, again! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 29, 2010
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KF RE 701 I know you are uncomfortable discussing theology on this forum and I apologize but I was just following up on topics introduced by tgp. Honestly in the post about the vulture I made a point to stay away from forming any conclusions. I was just using the illustration to point out a few observations. If you disagree with my observations I am all ears. As to tgp I am not trying to steer him one way or the other, nor could I. I am just bouncing off ideas that I hope he finds interesting. He certainly has given me much food for thought and I would like to return the favor. “Most directly, the issue of choice, for we are neither rabbits nor vultures” Yes I pointed that out “I know this is a very very simplistic analogy and I am in no way comparing a vulture’s choice to that of mans “ KF “God’s initiative to stir us to conviction and open us to listen does not force us beyond our responsibility to decide to receive the truth and turn from evil.” I trust there are many times in the past and will be many times in the future where you have changed your mind about things. If my mind is changed and this causes me to receive the truth and turn from evil where is the force or lack of responsible choice? I assume that those of us who are sympathetic to ID hope to change minds about ID by posting on this forum. If someone is anti ID and by the force of our arguments change their mind and thus change their response have we forced them? So because I think that God alone is the cause of changing my mind and you think it was Gods and something else that changed your mind that your act was not forced and mine was doesn’t compute. However our minds were changed they are still our minds and they are still our choices. You may be right as to the cause, I may be right as to the cause but if your choice was not forced then neither was mine. “The issue is not whether we need the initiative of God to be open to penitence [as is directly taught], but whether that leads to a situation where we do not have a real power of choice” You may see that as the issue but I do not. The issue is not about having a real power of free choice, the issue is how corrupt are we? Are we on our death bed or are we dead in the coffin? I mentioned to tgp that we as believers all bring hidden assumptions to the table on this “free will” issue. Perhaps an illustration will point out what I mean. I am sure you are aware of the image garnered from the Book of Revelation where Jesus is standing at the door knocking ( BTW I think this verse is for the church) and the exhortation is for the one on the other side of the door to open it. However what is assumed in this illustration is that the person on the other side is alive. If the other person on the other side is dead no amount of knocking will ever cause that door to be open. If they are dead before they can open the door they must be made alive. Now I think we are dead you seem to think we are on our deathbed but alive. You may be right, I may be right but when Lazarus came from the tomb he was the one doing the walking and the talking and he was not in any way FORCED to do so. Frankly I am not interested in hashing out the extent of mans depravity and I am sure those are your sentiments as well.I respect your position but I disagree. However the issue is not and never has been about the power of free choice, forced choices or any of that nonsense. These are mere distractions to the real issue, is man as Augustine and Luther argued dead or is he alive? That is the root cause of our disagreement. Vividvividbleau
August 29, 2010
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Vivid: I really wish that this thread were not back on theology, but something needs to be responded to. Your vulture-rabbit analogy is interesting, but begs a key question or two. Most directly, the issue of choice, for we are neither rabbits nor vultures. Secondly, you are doubtless aware of the prevenient grace of God that leads us to the opportunity of repentance, as described in esp John, Rom and Eph. As you may confirm Arminians and Biblical-inductive theologians alike will commonly point out that God's initiative to stir us to conviction and open us to listen does not force us beyond our responsibility to decide to receive the truth and turn from evil. The issue is not whether we need the initiative of God to be open to penitence [as is directly taught], but whether that leads to a situation where we do not have a real power of choice, and the onward ethical issue that dogs all limited atonement theories: euphemistically called, double election. Going further, we may observe that justification is by faith, not by works, noting that in Rom 4:4 - 5, the response of trusting God who JUSTIFIES THE WICKED is specifically contrasted to "work[ing]." In Gal 3, one receives the Spirit by the hearing of faith, and of course spiritual rebirth is by the Spirit. In short, there is textual ground to challenge the concept of regenerational priority over justification, and there is ethical ground for questioning it as well. I will point out that the overall evidence still supports the basic view that we are sufficiently free to respond to truth and right, if we are willing. By that response we open ourselves up to the transforming power of the Transcendent. And, by refusing to turn to the right and the true, we bear responsibility for willingly living by darkness. So, unlike either vultures or rabbits [better, doves], we have a choice about whether we want to be vulturish or to be as harmless as doves. (BTW, thanks for the analogy, I suspect I will use its modified form today to illustrate a key point.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 29, 2010
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vivid: My best too. :) Anyway, I never said that God has not a will. My concept was that He just does not need to choose among relative choices, like we do. And who would have created those relative choices, anyway? But I agree that we can stop here, if it's fine for you. Maybe I just wanted to reach the 700 mark! :)gpuccio
August 29, 2010
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Vivid, it's been a looong day. :-) I have much to consider and to respond to in your posts. I thought about "free will" and "Sovereignty" for almost 15 years before I "landed" on my conclusion. I drove everyone nuts, if you can imagine such a thing... Perhaps this is getting to be too off topic? I will leave that to the moderator(s). In any case, it will be tomorrow before I can answer. Feel free to continue the discussion with me on personal email as this has become more and more interesting as the thread has gone on and as I started actually paying more attention instead of responding in a (knee) jerk way. :-) p.s. Thanks. I do try to think deeply and hard about things. I am sure I am not always successful but it's not for lack of trying. I like your terminology "free choice" etc... a lot. I think this is a much better way to frame the issues.tgpeeler
August 28, 2010
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"Like before it is free to choose the meat if that is what the rabbit wants but with this new nature the situation is reversed it loves lettuce and not the meat." Should read "Like before it is free to choose the meat if that is what the VULTURE wants but with this new nature the situation is reversed it ( the vulture)now loves the lettuce not the meat" Vividvividbleau
August 28, 2010
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tgp “For my own self, I am certainly going to be more careful in throwing around the term “free will” in the future. At least I have learned that. I especially think it is important that we who are concerned with Biblical truth be more careful throwing around the term “free will” If we look back on our Christian history the issue of free will was a battle ground as it related to the Gospel, Augustine verses Pelagius, Luther verses Erasmus. The free will or lack thereof was THE pivotal issue of the Reformation upon which all the rest was buit ( justification by faith, etc). Luther made this point clear in his response to Erasmus’s “Discussion, or Collation , concerning Free Will” “Moreover I give you ( Erasmus) hearty praise and commendation on this further account that you alone in contrast to all others, have attacked the real thing, that is the essential issue. You have not worried me with those extraneous issues about the Papacy, purgatory, indulgences and such like-trifles, rather than the issues in which of almost all to date have sought my blood; you and you alone, have seen THE HINGE ON WHICH ALL ELSE TURNS, and aimed for the vital spot. For that I heartily thank you.” “The Bondage of The Will” I know Luther was a flawed man but he did launch the Reformation. His book“The Bondage of The Will” is a must read for all serious students (amateur or professional) of theology. If you have not read it get it. “Even so, I still think that this is in large part, not completely, but in large part, a question of terminology. There must be a word or phrase that captures the idea of “free” choices within the confines or restrictions of our nature AND allows for moral responsibility.” Because the term free will is IMO an oxymoron I always use “free choice”, “self determined choices”, “self determination” or “freedom to choose what we want“. All these terms are 1) convey knowledge ie not oxymoronic and 2) allows for moral responsibility. “For after all, as has been pointed out, even God is not “free” to sin (or be irrational) since that would violate His nature and His nature is unchanging.” I brought God into the picture because sometimes we can look at things a little more objectively when we are not talking about ourselves. Also I am of the opinion that all false religion, false doctrine and false worldviews find their root cause in the denial of one or more of Gods attributes. I know I am preaching to the choir here but if God exists there is a real and OBJECTIVE God! If God exists this God cannot be whatever we want it to be, IT is what IT is. I am sure you have heard the question “Which God should I worship?” and then there will be a list of all the various gods as if we are in a cafeteria line and different gods are on the menu. If God exists there can be only one God so there is only one choice. Because this God exists objectively what we think He is like may not be what He objectively is. When we deny certain aspects or attributes of this objectively existing being we enter into error as to religion, doctrine and general overall worldview. You touched on this here in 643 “We immediately see that we have still not reached the beginning or first premise of an argument. After all, one of our views claims that there is something prior to us. That there is a pre-existing superior Being that created us in His image. Well, how could we possibly begin to know such a thing? Until this question is settled, the answer about our nature and our “will,” free or not, can never be conclusively answered. And once it is settled, we have our conclusive answer.” If you go back my response to this was one word “bingo” All truth or error finds its ultimate source in a correct assessment of 1) does this superior Being exist 2) If it does exist it exists objectively and 3) because it exists objectively any error in our understanding of this being will lead to errors in worldviews, religion and doctrine. Vividvividbleau
August 28, 2010
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Tgp I am gratified that I my words did not end up crashing to the floor along with your computer. I respect your opinion and my sense of you is that you think deeply and carefully so that we agree on some difficult concepts gives me great comfort. “Upon further review, I think that this question is even more complex than I (at least) have considered” Yes its sort of like the concept of time, we take for granted that we know all about it until we start to think about it. “but it looks like there are a couple of things going on in these verses, the first is regeneration. Now we have a new nature” This insight IMO has huge implications as it relates to the free will/free choice debate. Think of it this way. If you put a piece of meat alongside a head of lettuce and place it before a vulture what will it choose? Obviously it will choose the meat. Is it free to choose the lettuce? Yes it is free to choose the lettuce if that is what the vulture wants however what the vulture wants is dictated by its nature and its nature loves meat and hates lettuce. But what if we had the power to replace the nature of the vulture with that of the nature of a rabbit? What would it choose then? It would choose the lettuce. Like before it is free to choose the meat if that is what the rabbit wants but with this new nature the situation is reversed it loves lettuce and not the meat. I know this is a very very simplistic analogy and I am in no way comparing a vulture’s choice to that of mans rather I am trying to point out two things. If our nature sets the boundaries of our wants then a new nature ( regeneration) gives us a new suite of wants. Things we once loved we now hate. Before regeneration we love one thing after regeneration we love something else, because our nature changed. our wants have changed. The change of nature does not make our wants any less our wants than our previous nature made our wants any less our wants. Our HIDDEN assumptions concerning our nature have a huge impact regarding ones views about free will/free choice! This brings me to another point that is not spot on topic but worth mentioning. We as believers must be careful to distinguish between the different natures of man described in the Bible. There is IMO a fourfold natures of man in the Bible, Adamic, fallen, regenerated and glorified. When describing abilities, especially as they relate to the capability of the will attendant to us, we must constantly be aware which nature we are talking about. As an example to ascribe Adams abilities to fallen mans abilities is to compare apples to oranges. The same can be said contrasting fallen mans abilities to the regenerated. Adam’s nature is not the same nature as fallen mans nature. That is Adam’s nature was not affected by the fall. His range of choices were greater than the choices of all those after him. Specifically he was free not to sin. All those after him are not free not to sin. Why was Adam free not to sin? Because he did not have a sinful nature, all those after him, with the exception of the second Adam, have a sinful nature. “The second is the distinction between body and soul, so maybe, under the ministry of the Holy Spirit, we are able to resist sin in our minds but even after salvation, not in our bodies.” This brings us to the second type of the fourfold nature which is that of the regenerated. BTW I know much of what I am writing you know already so I am not trying to lecture you in any way I am just kicking around ideas :) This is the most difficult for me to get my arms around. It seems here it can best be described as to warring natures in an enclosed space, that enclosed space being us. Its as if a new nature has been deposited into us alongside the existing old nature. I guess I am of the opinion the regenerated have two natures not one? This would explain why we do have the ability to do good and love good things and at the same time do bad and love bad things. Having said that I also recognize that this new nature ( regeneration) over time gets stronger and the other gets weaker. My thought is that the new nature is alive and a poison to the old. This poison is causing the old nature to become sick and dying( getting weaker), the final death happening at the time the body dies. This also ties in to your observation about the mind. Could it be that it is not our mind warring against our body , although this is certainly true, as much as it is our mind warring against our other nature? More later. Like I said you packed in a lot of good stuff into one post but I thought I would get this part out to you. Vividvividbleau
August 28, 2010
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tgp RE 693 Great !!! You will be hearing from me. Vividvividbleau
August 28, 2010
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gp RE 687 To hold that man has free will and free choice and God does not signifies that this chasm between us is to great. God either has a will and the power of choice or does not. If He exercises that will it is either His free exercise of that will or it is not. If He does not, or if he doesnt have a will then we are dealing with an entirely different God that I am acquainted with. I have nothing more to add and since to bridge the large divide that exists would take another 100 posts I have nothing more to say. My Best Vividvividbleau
August 28, 2010
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Vivid @ 685 - the "bad" news is that today has turned into an in town shopping/movie/restaurant day and thus no lake. The good news is that I'm sure I can get away for a post or two! :-)tgpeeler
August 28, 2010
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Green (continued): 5) Finally, QM, cause and explanation. For me, it's simple: establishing a cause and effect relationship is never an explanation (or always is). There are not causes which are explanations, and others which are not. I will be more clear. Science and reasoning, both deductive and inferential, often establish causal models to "explain" observed events. But that is explanation only in the measure that a logico-mathematical model is in good accord with facts, and in no other sense. Let's make an example: The law of gravitation (according to Newton). Is establishes a model according to which material bodies have some property (gravitational mass) which is attractive according to a specific quantitative relationship. Is that an "explication"? Well, it sets a logical framework (causal relationship between the mass and the attraction force), and a specifical formula to connect cause and effect. But does it explain what gravitational mass is? Or why that law is that way, and not another way? No, it doesn't. We can't explain what mass is. We don't even know for sure if gravitational mass and inertial mass (a concept derived from the law of acceleration) are the same thing, although usually there is good quantitative accord between the two. We don't know for sure what gravitations is. We have different theories of gravitation, each of them "describing" it in a different way (as a non local force, as a local force, as a quantum force). We still don't know for sure which is the best. But any of them does not tell us what gravitation "is", at most it gives us some model of how it works. Great unification theorie aim at "explaning" reality deriving all laws of physics fro one fundamental law. But would that be "explanation"? Or only a different level od "description"? So, I think that all knowledge about external reality id "descriptive", and does not really "explain". Unless we equate "explanation" with "a descriprion which works fine". And in empirical science, such descriptions are never final. That's why they are usually called "best explanations". At that moment. And for those who agree. That said, QM has all the best chracteristics of a scientific "best explanation". It is mathemathically and logically very consistent internally, and its "descriprions" of reality and its "previsions" are of the highest quality (in its best form, QM has, I believe, the highest precision of all scientific theories of all times). What's the problem with it, then? Well, QM has a rigidly deterministic part (the most important part, indeed, which is the computation of the wave function). The wave function is completely deterministic, and it is the part of the theory which supposedly descrubes reality at its more fundamental level. And yet, we rely not on direct observations of the wave function. We observe only "measurements" of its effects. When we measure something, the wave function "collapses": it loses its deep nature of mathematical superpimposition of states, or of whatever it really is, and becomes an observable, and measurable, event. That colapse is perfectly described, and therefore "explained", by the wave function, but only through a probabilistic model. And the probabilistic model is not of the same kind as the probability we usually know in macroscopic reality: it is not a way of dealing with complex deterministic events whose hidden variables are too many, and too complex, to allow an exact computation of the event. In QM, probability is intrinsic in the model: the wave function, the essential description of the reality of a quantum object, is indeed the probability of observing an event when the wave function collapse. This probabilistic meaning of the mathematical deterministic part is an intrinsic assumption of the model, not a consequence of incomplete descriprion of the variables involved. So, it is as much a description/explanation as any other scientific law. And it works! It works better than any other law. So, my final position is the following: any explanatory model is a good "description/explanation" of its object (the part of reality which it is supposed to explain/describe) in the measure that, given its assumptions, it does exactly that: explains/describes what we observe. And that it does it well. If other explanatory models, with different assumptions, are available, the existibg models can be compared, and everybody is "free" to decide for himself which is the "best explanation". At times, Occam's principle of parsimony can be a factor in compmring models. That said, my model for free will and human behaviour, as I have tried to elucidate it in my posts, is for me the "best explanation" of all that we observe and intuit about the subject of our discussion. My model certainly assumes some concepts, like a transcendental self whihch is the originator/cause of choices, and it certainly assumes that being the self the origin of its choices, it has "control" of them (in the sense that we have detailed). It assumes that choices are never completely determined by outer and inner previous phenomenal events, but that the range of possible choices is certainly determined by the sum of all them. It assumes that choices have consequences on phenomenal events, some of them acting directly on future choices (for instance, the gradual increase of our range of options, our "inner freedom", after repeated good choices. It assumes that choices are never neutral, but always have a specific value for the agent, according to a field of values which we call "moral values", or "morality", and that the agent is intuitively aware of those moral values of possible choices when he chooses. I think that that kind of model is the best explanation for what we observe and intuit of human behaviour. It is, however, an "explanation" of it, in the sense that it describes it well, and establishes precise and non contradictory causal relationships between all the parts of the model (it is "internally consistent"). Again, I stick to the concept that it is the whole model which "explains/describes" its object, and not the individual parts of it. That is true, not only of my model, but of all scientific and philosophical models.gpuccio
August 28, 2010
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Green: A quick response to your #676, while I wonder if 700 posts would be a record for the blog... 1) I love being pressed :) 2) I agree that "there is no parity between causation and explanation". Indeed, I believe that that statement is generally true in all cases (I will detail that better in the point about QM). 3) And I think that I agree that "Agential control “just is” agential causation" (although those terms still leave me a little bit unhappy). 4) Before going to QM, a quick comment on your #271, too. I do believe that the intuition we have of ourselves includes libertarian free will. The reason for that belief if that all people, whatever their convitions, and in all times, seem to have lived, and to still live, according to a libertarian view of themselves and others. What I mean is that the way they speak, the way they think (except in a phiosophical concept), the way they act, plan, and judge, is perfectly compatible eith the concepts of libertarian free will, of moral conscience, and of moral responsibility. Then, when people build higher level maps of reality, each goes his own way: some become materialistic determinists, others spiritualistic determinists, others compatibilists, others libertarians. But all go on living and acting as libertarians. I still ahve to see a determinists who really accepts, at all levels, all the consequences of determinism in his personal life. So, all that proves, IMO, is that our higher reason is free to make a mess with our conceptions of free will, which is instead a perfectly natural intuition at basic level. The rest in next post...gpuccio
August 28, 2010
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PS: I also draw attention to 651 - 3 (now that my page has loaded correctly). Thanks Gkairosfocus
August 28, 2010
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F/N: On the main theme of the thread, I simply draw attention to 640 - 41 ff above. The thread is now far too long and gives trouble loading. Gkairosfocus
August 28, 2010
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Onlookers: I see the thread has unfortunately drifted back to theological disputes, and in so doing [681] at least one commenter has unfortunately again seriously mischaracterised Arminian thought, tot he point of well-poisoning. I note that in 681 the term "ultimate control" is being dangerously equivocated [thus creating a contradiction through a strawman fallacy loaded with unfair and frankly false accusations]. In this regard, I note that the basic contention of Arminians has been that a man -- as a steward of the gift of a mind of his own -- is responsible to incline his heart towards God, as may be abundantly vindicated though scriptural texts and contexts. I therefore call for a more fair-minded approach [loaded, unfair slogans are simply inexcusable], and invite Green to read e.g. here and here to help him gain some balance. As a start to that, and to balance the loaded comments above, I cite Wiki's summary on Arminianism: _________________ >> Arminianism is a school of soteriological thought within Protestant Christianity based on the theological ideas of the Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560–1609)[1] and his historic followers, the Remonstrants. The doctrine's acceptance stretches through much of mainstream Christianity, including evangelical Protestantism.[citation needed] Arminianism holds to the following tenets: * Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation (see also prevenient grace). They possess free will to accept or reject salvation. [NB: this is not to be equated to being in "ultimate control," if one is fair-minded] * Salvation is possible only by God's grace, which cannot be merited. * No works of human effort can cause or contribute to salvation. * God's election is conditional on faith in the sacrifice and Lordship of Jesus Christ. * Christ's atonement was made on behalf of all people. * God allows his grace to be resisted by those who freely reject Christ. * Believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace through persistent, unrepented-of sin.[2] Arminianism is most accurately used to define those who affirm the original beliefs of Jacobus Arminius himself, but the term can also be understood as an umbrella for a larger grouping of ideas including those of Hugo Grotius, John Wesley and others. There are two primary perspectives on how the system is applied in detail: Classical Arminianism, which sees Arminius as its figurehead, and Wesleyan Arminianism, which sees John Wesley as its figurehead. Wesleyan Arminianism is sometimes synonymous with Methodism. In addition, Arminianism is often misrepresented by some of its critics to include Semipelagianism or even Pelagianism, though proponents of both primary perspectives vehemently deny these claims.[3] Within the broad scope of the history of Christian theology, Arminianism is closely related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology), and the two systems share both history and many doctrines. Nonetheless, they are often viewed as rivals within evangelicalism because of their disagreement over details of the doctrines of divine predestination and salvation. >> ________________ I trust that Green's remarks, in future, will be more balanced and fair-minded. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 28, 2010
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vivid (#670): Yes, you are perfectly right. That describes well my position. Indeed, my #l59 was only a quick, and certainly incomplete, sum up of what I had said in #648, and presupposed that you had already read that one.gpuccio
August 28, 2010
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molch,
Clive @ 661: I agree with your assessment on the laws of nature and mathematics, but for the reasons illustrated in my example, I obviously disagree with you that the power of reasoning falls into that category. I am happy we could clarify our respective positions this far, and maybe we can pick a similar discussion up at some point on a shorter thread! :)
I have enjoyed it, I hope we can pick it up sometime in the not too distant future.Clive Hayden
August 27, 2010
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tgp final thought. Enjoy your time at the lake. RE 666 you packed in a lot of interesting ideas I would hate that post to go to waste. If this thread is still going when you get back I would like to pick your brain about some of the topics you touched on. have a great weekend. Vividvividbleau
August 27, 2010
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motives in mind not matter - yes.tgpeeler
August 27, 2010
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tgp "Do you view evil as a corruption of good, then? Without good, no evil can exist because if there were no good then there would simply be nothing. Is that it? (I agree with that, by the way.)" Yes thats it. I would also add that moral evil depends ultimately on "motive". Motives are in the mind not in the matter. Vividvividbleau
August 27, 2010
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