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Information and Energy

Today’s PhysOrg.com site contains this article. To my view, their investigation has important implications for ID. Many critics of ID ask us: “Well, how does your Designer design?” This is their way of saying to us that a Designer who lies outside the physical realm cannot possibly act within it. Of course, this amounts to a theological claim, and not a scientific one; nevertheless, it’s made.

What’s new here, though, is that, whereas formerly it was thought that energy was needed to “erase” information (which leaves its own physical residue–that is, it’s measurable), now this is no longer the case. However, if it is true that energy is not needed to “erase” information, contrariwise, wouldn’t it also be true that energy is not needed to impart information? (Keep in mind that this is only true in the limited realm of the angular momentum of particles, and, so, is not true in the macroscopic world involving heat and entropy.) It would seem to me, then, that if no energy is needed to impart a changed angular momentum, then the quantum states of atoms and molecules can be effected in an ‘energy-free’ way; that is, invisibly. This would now seem to open up the possibility of a Designer who exists outside of our physical realm acting in our world in a way that goes undetected.

I wonder how our critics will respond to this new possibility.

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26 Responses to Information and Energy

  1. PaV, I bet you a dollar that this technique,, if true,,,

    ‘But a new study shows that, theoretically, information can be erased without using any energy at all. Instead, the cost of erasure can be paid in terms of another conserved quantity, such as spin angular momentum.’

    ,,, is already used in cells…

    Life Leads the Way to Invention – Feb. 2010
    Excerpt: a cell is 10,000 times more energy-efficient than a transistor. “ In one second, a cell performs about 10 million energy-consuming chemical reactions, which altogether require about one picowatt (one millionth millionth of a watt) of power.” This and other amazing facts lead to an obvious conclusion: inventors ought to look to life for ideas.,,, Essentially, cells may be viewed as circuits that use molecules, ions, proteins and DNA instead of electrons and transistors. That analogy suggests that it should be possible to build electronic chips – what Sarpeshkar calls “cellular chemical computers” – that mimic chemical reactions very efficiently and on a very fast timescale.
    http://creationsafaris.com/cre.....#20100226a

    Also of interest is that a cell apparently seems to be successfully designed along the very stringent guidelines laid out by Landauer’s principle of ‘reversible computation’ in order to achieve such amazing energy efficiency, something man has yet to accomplish in any meaningful way for computers:

    Notes on Landauer’s principle, reversible computation, and Maxwell’s Demon – Charles H. Bennett
    Excerpt: Of course, in practice, almost all data processing is done on macroscopic apparatus, dissipating macroscopic amounts of energy far in excess of what would be required by Landauer’s principle. Nevertheless, some stages of biomolecular information processing, such as transcription of DNA to RNA, appear to be accomplished by chemical reactions that are reversible not only in principle but in practice.,,,,
    http://www.hep.princeton.edu/~.....501_03.pdf

  2. PaV:

    Many critics of ID ask us: “Well, how does your Designer design?” This is their way of saying to us that a Designer who lies outside the physical realm cannot possibly act within it.

    Or, it could be their way of asking “Well, how does your Designer design?” Did I miss something? Is that not a legitimate question?

    Of course, this amounts to a theological claim, and not a scientific one; nevertheless, it’s made.

    So a question about mechanism is automatically a ‘theological claim’? How, exactly?

  3. “Subatomic particles have spin angular momentum, a quantity that, like energy, must be conserved.”

    So no I don’t think this helps us here. Gee whiz it looks like we just have to accept that design is a miracle that you can’t explain with reference to science. Well golly gosh darn.

  4. PaV, since I had derived my conclusion that information is ‘real’ from quantum mechanics itself (the foundation of reality), I always felt that Landauer’s insistence that information was ‘physical’ (merely emergent from a material basis) to not be all that well thought out. It is very nice to see that the validity of Landauer’s dubious objection has now been brought into question.

    notes:

    “Those devices (computers) can yield only approximations to a structure (of information) that has a deep and “computer independent” existence of its own.” – Roger Penrose – The Emperor’s New Mind – Pg 147

    “Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day.”
    Norbert Weiner – MIT Mathematician – Father of Cybernetics

    leading quantum physicist Anton Zeilinger has followed in John Archibald Wheeler’s footsteps (1911-2008) by insisting reality, at its most foundational level, is ‘information’.

    “It from bit symbolizes the idea that every item of the physical world has at bottom – at a very deep bottom, in most instances – an immaterial source and explanation; that which we call reality arises in the last analysis from the posing of yes-no questions and the registering of equipment-evoked responses; in short, that things physical are information-theoretic in origin.” John Archibald Wheeler

    Why the Quantum? It from Bit? A Participatory Universe?
    Excerpt: In conclusion, it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Thence the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: “In the beginning was the Word.” Anton Zeilinger – a leading expert in quantum teleportation:
    http://www.metanexus.net/Magaz.....fault.aspx

    Zeilinger’s principle
    The principle that any elementary system carries just one bit of information. This principle was put forward by the Austrian physicist Anton Zeilinger in 1999 and subsequently developed by him to derive several aspects of quantum mechanics.
    http://science.jrank.org/pages.....z17a7f88PM

    In the beginning was the bit – New Scientist
    Excerpt: Zeilinger’s principle leads to the intrinsic randomness found in the quantum world. Consider the spin of an electron. Say it is measured along a vertical axis (call it the z axis) and found to be pointing up. Because one bit of information has been used to make that statement, no more information can be carried by the electron’s spin. Consequently, no information is available to predict the amounts of spin in the two horizontal directions (x and y axes), so they are of necessity entirely random. If you then measure the spin in one of these directions, there is an equal chance of its pointing right or left, forward or back. This fundamental randomness is what we call Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle.
    http://www.quantum.at/fileadmi.....t/bit.html

    As well PaV did you see this paper from Physorg yesterday?

    Physicists describe method to observe timelike entanglement – January 2011
    Excerpt: In “ordinary” quantum entanglement, two particles possess properties that are inherently linked with each other, even though the particles may be spatially separated by a large distance. Now, physicists S. Jay Olson and Timothy C. Ralph from the University of Queensland have shown that it’s possible to create entanglement between regions of spacetime that are separated in time but not in space, and then to convert the timelike entanglement into normal spacelike entanglement. They also discuss the possibility of using this timelike entanglement from the quantum vacuum for a process they call “teleportation in time.” “To me, the exciting aspect of this result (that entanglement exists between the future and past) is that it is quite a general property of nature and opens the door to new creativity, since we know that entanglement can be viewed as a resource for quantum technology,” Olson told PhysOrg.com.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....ement.html

  5. Pav here are a few more notes I’ve collected on the relation between ‘Information and Energy’:

    How Teleportation Will Work -
    Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. — As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made.
    http://science.howstuffworks.c.....ation1.htm

    Quantum Teleportation – IBM Research Page
    Excerpt: “it would destroy the original (photon) in the process,,”
    http://www.research.ibm.com/qu.....portation/

    Unconditional Quantum Teleportation – abstract
    Excerpt: This is the first realization of unconditional quantum teleportation where every state entering the device is actually teleported,,
    http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/.....2/5389/706

    Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh
    Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) — Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport.
    http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/fa.....lPSA2K.pdf

    Single photons to soak up data:
    Excerpt: the orbital angular momentum of a photon can take on an infinite number of values. Since a photon can also exist in a superposition of these states, it could – in principle – be encoded with an infinite amount of information.
    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/7201

    Ultra-Dense Optical Storage – on One Photon
    Excerpt: Researchers at the University of Rochester have made an optics breakthrough that allows them to encode an entire image’s worth of data into a photon, slow the image down for storage, and then retrieve the image intact.
    http://www.physorg.com/news88439430.html

    This following experiment clearly shows information is not an ‘emergent property’ of any solid material basis as is dogmatically asserted by some materialists:

    Converting Quantum Bits: Physicists Transfer Information Between Matter and Light
    Excerpt: A team of physicists at the Georgia Institute of Technology has taken a significant step toward the development of quantum communications systems by successfully transferring quantum information from two different groups of atoms onto a single photon.
    http://gtresearchnews.gatech.e.....mtrans.htm

    The following articles show that even atoms (Ions) are subject to teleportation:

    Of note: An ion is an atom or molecule in which the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge.

    Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups
    Excerpt: In fact, copying isn’t quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable – it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can’t ‘clone’ a quantum state. In principle, however, the ‘copy’ can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,,
    http://www.rsc.org/chemistrywo.....ammeup.asp

    Atom takes a quantum leap – 2009
    Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been ‘teleported’ over a distance of a metre.,,,
    “What you’re moving is information, not the actual atoms,” says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/fo.....1769/posts

  6. PaV this interesting tidbit is also derived from the relation between ‘Information and Energy’:

    notes:

    Reflections on the ‘infinite transcendent information’ framework:

    The weight of mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. As well, mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light, whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight.

    Special Relativity – Time Dilation and Length Contraction – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY

    For us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, only gets us to first base as far as quantum entanglement, or teleportation, are concerned. That is to say, traveling at the speed of light only gets us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, ‘past and future folding into now’, framework of time. This higher dimension ‘eternal’ inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not ‘frozen within time’ yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light.

    “I’ve just developed a new theory of eternity.”
    Albert Einstein
    http://www.rd.com/your-america.....176-2.html

    “The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass.”
    Richard Swenson – More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12

    Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182

    It is very interesting to note that this strange higher dimensional, eternal, framework for time, found in special relativity, finds corroboration in Near Death Experience testimonies:

    ‘In the ‘spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it’s going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.’
    Mickey Robinson – Near Death Experience testimony

    ‘When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.’
    Dr. Ken Ring – has extensively studied Near Death Experiences

    It is also very interesting to point out that the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’, reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please note the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, with ‘the light at the end of the tunnel’ reported in NDEs:

    Traveling At The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/

    The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions
    Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven. (Barbara Springer)
    http://www.near-death.com/expe.....rch16.html

    The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions
    Excerpt: I saw a pinpoint of light in the distance. The black mass around me began to take on more of the shape of a tunnel, and I felt myself traveling through it at an even grea…ter speed, rushing toward the light. I was instinctively attracted to it, although again, I felt that others might not. As I approached it, I noticed the figure of a man standing in it, with the light radiating all around him. (Betty Eadie)
    http://www.near-death.com/expe.....rch16.html

    Also, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, but, and this is a big but; this ‘timeless’ travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. In information teleportation though the ‘time not passing’, eternal, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but also in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus ‘pure transcendent information’ is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which ‘It’ resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned).

    “An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality”
    Akiane – Child Prodigy – Artwork – Music video – http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4204586

    Logic also dictates ‘a decision’ must have been made, by the ‘transcendent, eternal, infinite information’ from the primary timeless (eternal) reality ‘It’ inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the necessity for a ‘first mover’ to explain quantum wave collapse.

    The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being – William Lane Craig – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914

  7. May I please get a description of information in the context of the physorg article?

  8. UBPed: I’ve cited the article. You can look there. The rest is up to you.

  9. Upright, they are talking about the cost of erasing a single bit of information encoded on a physical medium,, no matter what hierarchical definition of information the bit may fall under.

    As a sidenote to this, I suspect Landauer had tried to subsume ‘information’ into the ‘materialistic’ general relativity framework by relating information to the Boltzman constant, thus relating it to the entropy that all ‘material’ is subject to in this universe:

    i.e. here is Landauer’s principle that they are challenging:

    The thermodynamics of quantum information theory
    Excerpt: The result: erasing a bit of information results in a minimum energy cost of W= kB T ln2 per bit, where kB is Boltzmann’s constant and ln2 comes from binary encoding.
    http://www-scf.usc.edu/~justin....._Demon.pdf

  10. BornAgain77:

    Thanks for the citations. I have the paper reported in yesterday’s PhysOrg on my computer as I write. I’m going to try and wade through it.

    Some of your citations I’m fairly familiar with already. Seems like our scientific interests are quite similar. I have my own understanding of fundamental reality, and, so, follow QM and GR as best I can seeking confirmation/guidance. Quite interesting. But, no doubt, life is a quantum reality, and immensely complex.

  11. 11

    Interesting.

    Thanks BA.

    Time to read.

  12. PaV, “I’m going to try and wade through it.,,,”

    I certainly would be interested in what you take away from it. :)

  13. PaV, as a side interest to the topic,

    10 billion bits of entanglement achieved in silicon
    Excerpt: The researchers used high magnetic fields and low temperatures to produce entanglement between the electron and the nucleus of an atom of phosphorous embedded in a highly purified silicon crystal. The electron and the nucleus behave as a tiny magnet, or ‘spin’, each of which can represent a bit of quantum information. Suitably controlled, these spins can interact with each other to be coaxed into an entangled state – the most basic state that cannot be mimicked by a conventional computer.,,, ‘Creating 10 billion entangled pairs in silicon with high fidelity is an important step forward for us,’ said co-author Dr John Morton of Oxford University’s Department of Materials who led the team. ‘We now need to deal with the challenge of coupling these pairs together to build a scalable quantum computer in silicon.’

  14. PaV:

    I have my own understanding of fundamental reality, and, so, follow QM and GR as best I can seeking confirmation/guidance.

    Could you expand on this statement? I’d like to make sure I understand what you’re saying.

  15. jurassicmac:

    I think of gravity in terms of entropy, and, of course, entropy, which deals with degrees of freedom and such, is related to QM. Over the last year, I believe it is Linde who has seen entropic gravity as a means of reconciling QM and GR. So I follow it along those lines.

    Now, personally, I think an important element is missing, one, which, if true, and properly understood, would form the foundation of linking entropy to QM and to GR. Again, these are just personal fancies.

    However, I came to the conclusion in 2003 that entropy was the opposite of gravity, and that the early inflationary period of the universe and dark energy would both be related to this entropic force. In 2010 a series of papers came out that gave plausible mathematical arguments for all of this. Nothing has come out recently; so I’m thinking a whole lot of stuff is brewing. I’m not a physicist, so I have to wait for the physicists to do their mental gymnastics. But it is fun to muse and to watch what will happen next.

    As a hint to the missing element, I believe that space experiences—perpetually—a double expansion, both at the speed of light. SR and GR remain unaffected when seen in this light; and, QM is, as it is now, a coupling of “matter” to the second expansion. However, the second expansion eliminates (as best I can see) some of the fundamental problems QFT has to deal with, viz., renormalization.

    How titillating is this?!

  16. PaV, here are a few notes you probably have seen before but if not they may interest you:

    it seems even the ‘exotic’ virtual photons, which fleetingly pop into and out of existence, are tied directly to the anthropic principle through the 1 in 10^120 cosmological constant for dark energy:

    ELECTROMAGNETIC DARK ENERGY
    Abstract: We introduce a new model for dark energy in the Universe in which a small cosmological constant is generated by ordinary electromagnetic vacuum energy. The corresponding virtual photons exist at all frequencies but switch from a gravitationally active phase at low frequencies to a gravitationally inactive phase at higher frequencies via a Ginzburg–Landau type of phase transition. Only virtual photons in the gravitationally active state contribute to the cosmological constant. A small vacuum energy density, consistent with astronomical observations, is naturally generated in this model. We propose possible laboratory tests for such a scenario based on phase synchronization in superconductors.
    http://www.worldscinet.com/ijm.....11870.html

    Shining new light on dark energy with galaxy clusters – December 2010
    Excerpt: “Each model for dark energy makes a prediction that you should see this many clusters, with this particular mass, this particular distance away from us,” Sehgal said. Sehgal tested these predictions by using data from the most massive galaxy clusters. The results support the standard, vacuum-energy model for dark energy.
    http://www.physorg.com/news/20.....sters.html

    Even the ‘exotic’ virtual particles are found to be necessary for life in the universe:

    Virtual Particles, Anthropic Principle & Special Relativity – Michael Strauss PhD. Particle Physics – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4554674

    PaV, This is where I connect space-time (General Relativity) and entropy:

    The Physics of the Small and Large: What is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose
    Excerpt: “The time-asymmetry is fundamentally connected to with the Second Law of Thermodynamics: indeed, the extraordinarily special nature (to a greater precision than about 1 in 10^10^123, in terms of phase-space volume) can be identified as the “source” of the Second Law (Entropy).”
    http://www.pul.it/irafs/CD%20I.....enrose.pdf

    As well, contrary to speculation of ‘budding universes’ arising from Black Holes, Black Hole singularities are completely opposite the singularity of the Big Bang in terms of the ordered physics of entropic thermodynamics. In other words, Black Holes are singularities of destruction and disorder rather than singularities of creation and order.

    Roger Penrose – How Special Was The Big Bang?
    “But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator’s choice to this very tiny region of phase space.”

    Entropy of the Universe – Hugh Ross – May 2010
    Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated.
    http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universe

    Evolution is a Fact, Just Like Gravity is a Fact! UhOh!
    Excerpt: The results of this paper suggest gravity arises as an entropic force, once space and time themselves have emerged.
    http://www.uncommondescent.com.....fact-uhoh/

    This 1 in 10^10^123 number, for the time-asymmetry of the initial state of the ‘ordered entropy’ for the universe, also lends strong support for ‘highly specified infinite information’ creating the universe since;

    “Gain in entropy always means loss of information, and nothing more.”
    Gilbert Newton Lewis – Eminent Chemist

    “Is there a real connection between entropy in physics and the entropy of information? ….The equations of information theory and the second law are the same, suggesting that the idea of entropy is something fundamental…”
    Tom Siegfried, Dallas Morning News, 5/14/90 – Quotes attributed to Robert W. Lucky, Ex. Director of Research, AT&T, Bell Laboratories & John A. Wheeler, of Princeton & Univ. of TX, Austin in the article
    http://www.bible.ca/tracks/dp-lawsScience.htm

    ,, As well, I have a fairly ‘different’ view on the ‘successful’ reconciliation of GR and QM:

    General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5070355/

  17. PaV:

    I have my own understanding of fundamental reality, and, so, follow QM and GR as best I can seeking confirmation/guidance.

    The reason I ask is because as your statement is worded, it seems one could change it to something like:

    I have my own understanding of fundamental reality, and, so, follow Jesus and Christianity as best I can seeking confirmation/guidance.

    …and still have it make sense, given the particular words you chose. Your word selection raises several questions:

    1. When you say you have your ‘own’ understanding of ‘fundamental reality’, is your understanding unique from anyone or everyone else’s? If so, why?

    2. Do you realize you the surest way to depart from reality is to seek confirmation for your beliefs/views? This is called confirmation bias. Science is about testing your views by trying to prove them wrong (null hypotheses)

    3. What ‘guidance’ do you seek from QM or GR? Moral? Spiritual? Financial?

  18. PaV:

    However, I came to the conclusion in 2003 that entropy was the opposite of gravity.

    Based on what?

    I believe that space experiences—perpetually—a double expansion, both at the speed of light.

    Based on what?

  19. jmac @ 2 “Did I miss something? Is that not a legitimate question?”

    (The question being how does your Designer design?)

    I guess it could be if this could be.
    How do the laws of physics, which lie outside of the physical realm, design anything?

  20. tgpeeler @ 20:

    I guess it could be if this could be.
    How do the laws of physics, which lie outside of the physical realm, design anything?

    I’m not sure I accept the phrasing of your question. What definitions of the words are you using that would place the laws of physics outside the physical realm? If I asked: “How do the laws of physics, which lie outside of the physical realm, affect anything?” then my response would be say that they affect things in repeatable, verifiable, testable ways. The role of erosion in canyon formation or in the role of gravity in rainfall are not in doubt.

    The ‘laws’ of physics aren’t laws in that they are demands to be followed, they’re descriptions of how matter behaves.

    It seems what you’re ultimately asking is: “How do non-intelligent forces design anything?”

    To that, I would point out coin sorters that work via differently sized slots. You put a handful of coins in, in a random order, yet they fall into neat stacks of pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters. The result is the process of ‘selection’, even though there was no intelligent force doing the selecting.

    So, asking how non-intelligent forces could design anything is like asking how non-intelligent forces could sort anything into distinct piles: Even if the explanation given is incorrect, it is still testable because we have empirical access to the laws.

    With ID, there isn’t even a proposed mechanism as of yet.

    I can only speak for myself, but when I ask “How does your Designer design?” I’m not making any assumptions, I’m merely asking for the proposed mechanism. It’s no different than asking how continents move, (plate tectonics) how infectious diseases spread, (micro-organisms) or how species adapt to their environments. (natural selection)

  21. I’m not sure I accept your rephrasing of what the laws of physics mean.

  22. JM:

    Re: The ‘laws’ of physics aren’t laws in that they are demands to be followed, they’re descriptions of how matter behaves.

    Thus, they describe the laws that govern the behaviour of matter, with more or less empirical reliability. We live in a cosmos, not a chaos.

    The issue pivots on where do those laws and related parameters and initial conditions come from, given, e.g. the implications of evident fine tuning that sets up an observed cosmos that supports C-chemistry, cell based intelligent life.

    In that context, your coin-sorter example is particularly inadvertently revealing:

    I would point out coin sorters that work via differently sized slots. You put a handful of coins in, in a random order, yet they fall into neat stacks of pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters. The result is the process of ‘selection’, even though there was no intelligent force doing the selecting.

    Coin sorters work precisely because they are designed and are set up with functionally specific, complex organization, i.e they are programmed by a plan that has been effected that shows itself in a finely tuned arrangement of parts and forces that fulfills a clearly purposeful function.

    Now, let us ask: what happens when the whole observed universe looks suspiciously like a coin sorter?

    GEM of TKI

  23. OT:

    Turin Shroud 3-D Hologram – Face And Body – Dr. Petrus Soons
    http://www.metacafe.com/w/5889891/

  24. jurassicmac:

    Based on what?

    Are you interested?

  25. jur-mac:

    To that, I would point out coin sorters that work via differently sized slots. You put a handful of coins in, in a random order, yet they fall into neat stacks of pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters. The result is the process of ‘selection’, even though there was no intelligent force doing the selecting.

    Two things: First, this is simplistic thinking. If you think that NS is anything at all like a sieve process, you haven’t done much thinking. Life is overwhelmingly more complex that anything so simplistic as a sequence of sieves might explain.

    Second, why don’t you read The Blind Watchmaker and see just what Dawkins has to say about the legitimacy of “sieve processes”. You’ll see that it is a non-starter for him.

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