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Illusion of Knowledge III

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In Illusion of Knowledge I and II we discussed epistemological categories.  In particular, we analyzed what it means to “know” and whether there is a difference that makes a difference between scientific conclusions supported by “direct” observations and scientific conclusions based upon inference.  We also discussed how certain we have to be about a conclusion before we can say that we “know” it is true.  We used the Standard Model of cosmology (expanding universe, Big Bang, dark matter, dark energy) as the launching point for our discussion.

I have always been careful to say that it is not my purpose to disparage the Standard Model.  This is an exercise in epistemology (about which I have something to say), not cosmology (about which I must defer to others). 

Some may ask, why does Barry keep coming back to these questions about the nature of knowledge on a blog devoted to discussing ID?  The answer is these questions recur throughout all scientific inquiry, and it is important to know the difference between what we “know” and what we “think we know” based upon inferences.  In my opinion, much of the Neo-Darwinian edifice is constructed upon a foundation of inferences (inferences compelled by metaphysical, not scientific, commitments) masquerading as undisputed facts.  To assess NDE critically, we must be able to distinguish between facts and inferences.

Many commenters claimed that even though the Standard Model is based upon inferences and key elements of it (e.g., dark matter and dark energy) have not actually been directly observed, we nevertheless know that it is true as certainly as we can know anything is true. 

My question is, will these commenters still say that after reading New look at microwave background may cast doubts on big bang theory?

 

Comments
Some cool stuff http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/arch06/060602plasma-galaxy.htm http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050415milkyway.htm http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050105loose-cannon.htmmentok
September 13, 2006
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Sinclairjd, I find big bang cosmology inelegant, despite the mathematics. I believe in Occam's razor; conceiving "dark energy", "dark matter", inflation, et al. indicates "epicycles". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_universe_%28concept%29 DaveScot cites Wiki; so do I. Plasma and Electric are *not* complete; the creators are rather humble -- we do not know the origin of the Universe; we are not seeing its creation. But Plasma and electrical forces are simpler explanations of *observerd* phenomenon without resorting to convolutions of the "standard model". See the Deep Impact predictions; pretty wonderful. Wallace Thornhill presented his findings on comets (see above) to the IEEE. The IEEE also published a paper in which electrical effects can be observed, providing warning for earthquakes. Thus, a model exists that explains and may save lives. The link is below. http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec05/2367P. Phillips
September 13, 2006
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The last main observational area deals with the quantization of redshifts. In essence, redshifts do not take on all values with equal ease, as they must if they are caused mainly by the velocities of the observed objects. For example, redshifts near 0.061, 0.3, 0.6, 0.91, 1.41, 1.96, etc. occur more frequently than chance permits. Smaller redshifts too occur at preferred periodic intervals, as Tifft has shown in a study confirmed in an independent sample by Guthrie and Napier. The existence of preferred values for redshifts proves that either we are at the center of a series of expanding shells, or redshift does not indicate velocity. Arp cautions that faint quasars with high redshifts do not continue to show this effect, perhaps because the form of the relationship changes at great distances from us (as faintness would suggest). Also, much of the spread that exists around these preferred redshift values is apparently due to the speed of ejection, which can be up to 0.1 c. The average redshift of a quasar pair generally falls closer to a preferred redshift value than does either individual redshift. BL Lac objects show the same quantization, but to a less pronounced degree, as befits their relationship to quasars. Figure 8-16 shows a striking set of bands and gaps for galaxy redshifts in the x-ray cluster Abell 85 that illustrates the redshift quantization effect at a glance. Arp's strength is observational extragalactic astronomy. With theory he is less proficient, but has enlisted the aid of Narlikar, Hoyle and others. The concept of mass increasing with age has no adjustable parameters (the characteristic age being given by the measured age of our own galaxy), yet allows prediction of intrinsic redshifts for objects from K-effect stars to quasars, with results better than an order of magnitude. The Big Bang with many adjustable parameters cannot do as well. Redshift, then, indicates youth. And the slope of the Hubble diagram comes directly from our own galaxy's age. Since luminosity evolves with mass squared, the apparent brightness-redshift relationship is coincidental, and not an indicator of distance. I am no doubt biased here by seeing simpler theoretical explanations for Arp's observational constraints than his variable-mass theory can provide. But Arp concedes in places that theories need to evolve with discoveries, something that the Big Bang stopped doing at a fundamental level a generation ago. Some of the most entertaining reading in this book is provided by Arp's interactions with his colleagues and with referees and journal editors. Arp spices up these exchanges with a bit of his own philosophy. Despite its pessimism, I wonder how any of us could have evolved a philosophy much more optimistic if we had been in Arp's shoes. Anonymous referees frequently use abusive language such as "ludicrous", or unwarranted generalizations such as "bizarre conclusions based on an extreme bias of the authors wishing to find non-cosmological redshifts". It was not infrequent to find referees suggesting that the implications should have been used to prove the observations wrong! A Nobel laureate and former teacher is quoted as saying "Arp did not get anything right in my course. I should have flunked him but I could not bear to have him repeat the course with me."P. Phillips
September 13, 2006
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Dave Scott, your reference to Arp is only one footnote: 7. The first instance of observing the host galaxies around quasars was announced in 1983 by Gehren as published in the Proceedings of the Twenty-fourth Liege International Astrophysical Colloquium. p. 489-493. As Jastrow wrote in God and the Astronomers, about Big Bang believers: "When the scientist has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." It does not address The Einstein Cross. How do you explain that? You have not cited Arp's own papers or books, e.g., SEEING RED. Have you read the work? What specifics, for example below, do you dispute? Abell clusters of galaxies with higher redshifts are distributed right down the spines of both the Virgo cluster and its southern-hemisphere twin, the Fornax cluster. A complete sample over a large region of the southern sky showed that the strongest x-ray cluster concentration had the two brightest galaxies (M83 and Cen A) at its center, despite much larger redshift for the x-ray clusters. In general, x-ray clusters appear more commonly with redshifts of about 0.06 than chance allows, which in Arp's interpretation marks them as young and intrinsically redshifted. Supporting data includes cooling flow measures, which indicate that at least 100 solar masses per year are being lost from these clusters. This implies 100 billion solar masses in a billion years. Where is it going? The obvious possibilities can all be ruled out. BL Lac objects, at redshifts intermediate between quasars and cluster galaxies, are apparently progenitors of clusters of galaxies. Normal galaxies within certain redshift ranges tend to align on the sky in strings, with the lowest redshift galaxy near the center. For example, 13 of the 14 brightest northern hemisphere spiral galaxies in uncrowded fields fall on well-marked lines of galaxies that have concentrations of fainter, higher-redshift galaxies. And there are anomalous faint, blue, often active galaxies that fill out clusters in the redshift range between 0.2 and 0.4. These apparently evolve into the higher luminosity, lower redshift objects seen at 0.02 P. Phillips
September 13, 2006
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The Big Bang theory goes back as far as a singularity where all the matter/energy in the observable universe was compressed so much that it had no physical dimension. We have no theory of anything beyond that such as where the singularity came from and what else might have existed at the time or before. Our physical theories break down at the point of singularities. It wasn't matter/energy that suddenly came into existence in an explosive expansion. It was empty space that suddenly came into existence in an "explosive" expansion. As far as we know the matter/energy was always there. It was empty space that didn't exist. There was no such thing as distance. At the instant of the Big Bang what was an infinitesimally small distance became a measurable distance, kept growing, and is still growing today. The farthest back we can actually make direct observations is about 300,000 years after the big bang (if memory serves) when the energy in the universe became dilute enough so that it was transparent to light. We can detect that light today as a microwave glow that comes from every direction and is nearly perfectly homogenous. At that time the observable universe was approximately 1000 times smaller than it is today. The source of the inhomogeneity is unknown. If it weren't for that matter in the universe would be perfectly distributed and there would be no structure at all. The source of the inhomogeneity might be a creator or creators if such existed. Whether or not the structure was present in the singularity is unknown since our physical model of reality breaks down at that point we don't if structure can exist or not in a singularity. So in answer to your question about something from nothing it's yes, no, and unknown. Yes, it appears empty space came from nothing where no empty space existed before that. No, matter/energy didn't come from nothing, it was there as far back as we can determine packed into a dimensionless point. It's unknown if the singularity came from nothing. Not a good answer I'm afraid. Any or all of it might be wrong too as everything from time zero to 300,000 years is pure inference.DaveScot
September 13, 2006
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Thank God I was not "prescribed" to be a cosmologist. It is hard enough trying to maintain my sanity as an evoloutionist. "Nothing is so firmly believed as what we least know." Montaigne "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 13, 2006
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Well then how about getting something for nothing or is that wrong too?John A. Davison
September 13, 2006
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The "Big Bang" is misleading by name alone. It wasn't an explosion. I refer all who think of the big bang as an explosion to: Misconceptions about the Big BangDaveScot
September 13, 2006
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No Mentok. The quasars that Arp identifies are what're generally called the exception that proves the rule. There are thousands upon thousands of quasars which conform to Hubble prediction and a few anomalous ones that do not. How does Arp explain the fact that the vast majority of objects classified as quasars do not conform to his intrinsic redshift hypothesis?DaveScot
September 13, 2006
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Karl if that is the case then that is irrelevant. There are many quasars which have been proven to be connected to galaxies which are at different redshift. This proves that redshift cannot be used as cognate with distance and movement. Since we know that redhift is intrinsic in those quasars instead of based on movement therefore none of the distances theorized by redshift are reliable as accurate. They can come up with as many arguments as they like but so far they have all been defeated, even if they refuse to admit it or even read the refutations. They don't care. What can you do? Anyways I'm through discussing this topic, there have been numerous links to experts and people can decide for themselves.mentok
September 13, 2006
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Mentok, You're misunderstanding Dave's Wikipedia quote. The word 'nearby' in that quote means 'near to us', not 'near to the quasar'. If you reread it with this in mind, you'll see that there is no contradiction with the idea that quasars themselves are AGNs at cosmological distances.Karl Pfluger
September 12, 2006
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Dave from that quote:
The biggest problem with Arp's analysis is that today there are tens of thousands of quasars with known redshifts discovered by various sky surveys. The vast majority of these quasars are not correlated in any way with nearby AGN.
I find that a strange predicament since quasars are supposed to be the result of an active AGN. From wikipedia: "The scientific consensus is that quasars are powered by accretion of material onto supermassive black holes in the nuclei of distant galaxies, making these luminous versions of the general class of objects known as active galaxies. No other currently known mechanism appears able to explain the vast energy output and rapid variability."mentok
September 12, 2006
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Dave in that section you quote there is no reference to that data. I did find this though: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7997 http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8333mentok
September 12, 2006
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I bet that the Big Bang will prove to be a Big Bust. It is inconceivable to get this much order in the universe out of an explosion. Besides, explosives require ingredients and the BIg Bang didn't have any as I understand it. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. DavisonJohn A. Davison
September 12, 2006
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I do not believe that any of the basic cellular organelles ever had simpler precursors. Nor are they capable of being improved in any way. Yhey may only be degraded. The whole notion of gradualism collapses when their structure is examined. Behe's irreducable complexity is right on and is not subject to debate. I know of not a single cellular organelle that could conceivably have functioned other than in its now universal state and I don't think any evidence exists to the contrary. This conclusion follows directly from the evidence from histology and comparative cytology. The cilia that line our upper respiratory tract are morphologically and functionally indistinguishable from those that function to feed the oyster. While there may be differences in their proteins, the function remain exactly the same. It is to propel small particles. The notion that the same structure could have evolved separately in animals as distantly related as a mollusc and a vertebrate is absurd. They were both just reading the same blueprint at the time cilia first appeared in their respective evolutionary lineages. This conclusion is also in complete accord with the Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis so it should surprise no one that I present it here. "A past evolution is undeniable, a present evolution undemonstrable." John A. Davisonand basic structureJohn A. Davison
September 12, 2006
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P.Phillips
The biggest problem with Arp's analysis is that today there are tens of thousands of quasars with known redshifts discovered by various sky surveys. The vast majority of these quasars are not correlated in any way with nearby AGN. Indeed, with improved observing techniques, a number of host galaxies have been observed around quasars which indicates that those quasars at least really are at cosmological distances and are not the kind of objects Arp proposes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_cosmology#Variable_mass_hypothesis_and_intrinsic_redshifts I would put to you that Arp isn't being denied peer review. He is failing to pass peer review. He isn't failing to pass peer review because of a conspiracy but because his idea is wrong.DaveScot
September 12, 2006
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The following site responds to critics of the Big Bang such as the ones raised in the comments section of this post: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/RelWWW/wrong.html I also recommend Hugh Ross's book "Creator & the Cosmos", which has an appendix dedicated to assembling the evidence for a Big Bang. I understand the frustration of a thoughtful critic such as P. Phillips with respect to getting a hearing. But it is going to be difficult when he is asking the reader to fact check extremely complicated subject matter from first principles. That would probably take months, since one has to independently verify everything the author says. Hence I suggest the above site (especially Ned Wright's). Are there intuitively simple reasons to doubt the Big Bang? That would be a much better approach. I am interested as to whether P.Phillips developed his skepticism through exposure to theorists such as Arp & Lerner, or whether his initial skepticism came through a philosophical commitment such as young earth creationism.sinclairjd
September 12, 2006
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Oh, on my long quote, it should read: Yet you acknowledge I.D., despite its difficulties in obtaining access to mainstream publications, and you are of course very well aware of the difficulties of plasma cosmology adherents being published in the “peer-reviewed” literature. After all, that’s how Einstein, the patent clerk, made such a “big bang”, in peer reviewed literature. And when Arp was denied time, and publication of his work, the peers were of course showing how wise they were. To everyone other than David, do consider that once again we see today evidence that any dissent against orthodox dogma is not considered unless it is “peer reviewed”. And when the peers deny access, thus creating a Catch 22, just as the Neo-Darwinians do to proponents of Intelligent Design, well, the thought police have indeed won a great moral victory, ensuring against corruption of the credulous.P. Phillips
September 12, 2006
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Sorry; e-mail me how to use "block quote"; is that the thick double line that goes down the middle? How do you do that? Anyway, when/if I hear from Wallace Thornhill, he may not have comments, probably I'm done! Thanks, Patrick! Have a great evening, everyone :)P. Phillips
September 12, 2006
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Philips, your comment was indeed in the spam filter. Also, try to use the blockquote tag so it's easier to follow your comments.Patrick
September 12, 2006
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Here's a better excerpt, and let me know when the entire text posts! (No, I'm not Catholic but I appreciate wisdom): http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0605188.htm The pope's main point, developed in an academic style, was that in the Western world the growing separation between faith and reason has resulted in a "dangerous state of affairs for humanity," in which society tries to construct a system of ethics without taking religion seriously and individuals try to make moral choices based solely on the subjective conscience. He said this was partly the result of a long process of "de-Hellenization" of Christian theology, in stages marked by an overemphasis on Scripture, a reduction of the Gospel to a "humanitarian moral message" and the creation of a gulf between theology and scientific empiricism. The pope said his broad-brush "critique of modern reason" did not aim to turn back the clock or ignore the progress made and the new possibilities opened for humanity. But the church also sees dangers, he said, and believes they can be overcome "only if reason and faith come together in a new way." When the West invites others to a "dialogue of cultures," it should do so with the understanding that religion is an essential part of its own culture, he said. But in fact, he said, it is widely held in the Western world that the only authentic knowledge is scientific knowledge, and that religion is a purely subjective experience. "The world's most profoundly religious cultures see this exclusion of the divine from the universality of reason as an attack on their most profound convictions," he said. The pope said the West needs to recover the rightful place of philosophy and theology, so that it can say -- like the Byzantine emperor who debated the Muslim scholar -- that "not to act reasonably ... is contrary to the nature of God." The Vatican underlined the academic character of the pope's address by noting on the text handed out to journalists that a later version would be issued, complete with footnotes.P. Phillips
September 12, 2006
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To clarify, I meant that Dave Scott ignores me too, and that's fine. My posts are not peer reviewed. Well, God Bless David Heddle, he certainly "peer reviewed" me! Really, no hard feelings, I have to laugh. David, does the lack of peer review stop you from reading Theodore Dalrymple or the Pope's statements on "logos" today? I suspect peer review in the wrong hands is very much a "sword". I do see the tactics of intimidation used as "acting without reason". From Reuters: Benedict several times quoted the argument by Emperor Manual II Paleologos that spreading the faith through violence is unreasonable and that acting without reason -- "logos" in the original Greek -- was against God's nature. At the end of his lecture, the Pope again quoted Manuel and said: "It is to this great 'logos', to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures."P. Phillips
September 12, 2006
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For what it is worth, I replied to David Heddle, and it has not posted; maybe the spam filter got it. But let me try an abbreviated reply. From the Cosmology statement: Supporters of the big bang theory may retort that these theories do not explain every cosmological observation. But that is scarcely surprising, as their development has been severely hampered by a complete lack of funding. Indeed, such questions and alternatives cannot even now be freely discussed and examined. An open exchange of ideas is lacking in most mainstream conferences. Whereas Richard Feynman could say that "science is the culture of doubt", in cosmology today doubt and dissent are not tolerated, and young scientists learn to remain silent if they have something negative to say about the standard big bang model. Those who doubt the big bang fear that saying so will cost them their funding. Even observations are now interpreted through this biased filter, judged right or wrong depending on whether or not they support the big bang. So discordant data on red shifts, lithium and helium abundances, and galaxy distribution, among other topics, are ignored or ridiculed. This reflects a growing dogmatic mindset that is alien to the spirit of free scientific inquiry. Today, virtually all financial and experimental resources in cosmology are devoted to big bang studies. Funding comes from only a few sources, and all the peer-review committees that control them are dominated by supporters of the big bang. As a result, the dominance of the big bang within the field has become self-sustaining, irrespective of the scientific validity of the theory. Giving support only to projects within the big bang framework undermines a fundamental element of the scientific method -- the constant testing of theory against observation. Such a restriction makes unbiased discussion and research impossible. To redress this, we urge those agencies that fund work in cosmology to set aside a significant fraction of their funding for investigations into alternative theories and observational contradictions of the big bang. To avoid bias, the peer review committee that allocates such funds could be composed of astronomers and physicists from outside the field of cosmology. Allocating funding to investigations into the big bang's validity, and its alternatives, would allow the scientific process to determine our most accurate model of the history of the universe. # # # # And lastly: Most recently, on October 3, 2003, the Hubble telescope photographed a galaxy (NGC 7319) known for its dense clouds obstructing all objects behind its core. In front or close to the front of the galaxy's core is a strongly redshifted QUASAR. This means that the quasar is NOT at the outer regions of the universe...but NEARBY. Its redshift has nothing to do with velocity or distance - it is just an intrinsic, and yet unexplained, QUALITY of the quasar. And that means that the astronomers' assumptions about redshift, and everything that logically followed, are FALSE. This revelation, so devastating to cherished theory, has not gone unnoticed. A group of distinguished astronomers, including Halton Arp himself, presented a paper on this very subject to the American Astronomical Society meeting in January 2004. The paper has also been submitted to an astronomical journal, with a peer review committee recommending heavy "editing" before publication. Permission to publish has yet to be granted. There is more to this story, and the facts grow increasingly unsettling. Halton Arp has been delivering critical information to astronomers for many years, and has paid a heavy price. Eventually, the astronomical community DENIED Arp further telescope time, forcing him to leave the United States to carry on his work (he is now affiliated with the Max Planck Institute in Germany.) The people responsible for these actions no doubt felt they were justified in ostracizing Arp for the "greater good." But the evidence is becoming clear that this is yet another black mark on science that will not be easily removed. Recently, dozens of top scientists, including Arp, Eric J. Lerner, and Michael Ibison authored an open letter to the scientific community, arguing that the dominance of big bang theory "rests more on funding decision than on the scientific method." They write: "Today, virtually all financial and experimental resources in cosmology are devoted to big bang studies. Funding comes from only a few sources, and all the peer-review committees that control them are dominated by supporters of the big bang. As a result, the dominance of the big bang within the field has become self-sustaining, irrespective of the scientific validity of the theory.P. Phillips
September 12, 2006
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you wrote:
Mentok: The wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space may be of use to you. It’s a little hard to understand (noooo kidding), but it may be a good place to begin to understand the mathematical concepts that lie behind the notion of an expanding universe. One thing that is important to note is that the universe is not expanding out from a single central point–all distances are changing, and the universe has no center. It also has no edge.
The theory of expanding space is based on the theory that the matter in the universe is expanding outward. That theory is based on misinterpretation of redshift and other misinterpretations. They cannot explain how space itself is expanding. This is because space is not a quantifiable substance. They cannot and do not try to prove that space is a quantifiable substance which can move. They conflate matter and space. If space is pure vacuum how can it expand? Expansion means going from a dense state to a less dense state. A pure vacuum has no density and therefore cannot expand. There is nothing to expand. Besides that where wopuld space expand into if it could expand? It would be expanding into something. A ballon expands because there is space around the ballon for it to expand into. If space didn't exist outside of the ballon then what does? The theory makes no sense but it is promoted because it is part of big bang cosmology which is the establishment position. Countless careers, and reputations and grants are at stake if big bang cosmology were to fall.mentok
September 12, 2006
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David, Ah, a man without prejudice! I excerpted the relevant facts above, and you just dismiss them based on the source. That is your right, excercising your free will. Yet you acknowledge I.D., despite its difficulties in obtaining access to mainstream publications, and you are of course very well of the difficulties of plasma cosmology being published in the "peer-reviewed" literature. After all, that's how Einstein, the patent clerk, made such a "big bang", in peer reviewed literature. And when Arp was denied time, and publication of his work, the peers were of course showing how wise they were! http://www.haltonarp.com/?Page=Abstracts Alas, I posted this link below on a civil debate, neither opponent convincing the other, but it was a pleasure to read nontheless. http://www.bib-arch.org/bswbOOexodus.html http://www.cosmologystatement.org/ Relevant excerpt: # # # # # # Today, virtually all financial and experimental resources in cosmology are devoted to big bang studies. Funding comes from only a few sources, and all the peer-review committees that control them are dominated by supporters of the big bang. As a result, the dominance of the big bang within the field has become self-sustaining, irrespective of the scientific validity of the theory. Giving support only to projects within the big bang framework undermines a fundamental element of the scientific method -- the constant testing of theory against observation. Such a restriction makes unbiased discussion and research impossible. To redress this, we urge those agencies that fund work in cosmology to set aside a significant fraction of their funding for investigations into alternative theories and observational contradictions of the big bang. To avoid bias, the peer review committee that allocates such funds could be composed of astronomers and physicists from outside the field of cosmology. Allocating funding to investigations into the big bang's validity, and its alternatives, would allow the scientific process to determine our most accurate model of the history of the universe. # # # # # # To everyone other than David, do consider that once again today we evidence that any dissent against orthodox dogma is not considered unless it is "peer reviewed". And when the peers deny access, thus creating a Catch 22, just as the Neo-Darwinians do, well, the thought police have indeed won a great moral victory, ensuring against corruption of the credulous. Arp has been published, here's a link to his monographs. So has Peratt. As to Metaresearch, several of those papers were published as well. Thornhill has presented to the IEEE. When his work predicted Deep Impact's results, and not "peer reviewed" papers, your answer is what? He hasn't published in The Journal Science? http://www.rense.com/general58/darkage.htm Of course, when so many agree amongst themselves, it is not a conspiracy, but a campaign. EXCERPT: # # # # # # # # # # Most recently, on October 3, 2003, the Hubble telescope photographed a galaxy (NGC 7319) known for its dense clouds obstructing all objects behind its core. In front or close to the front of the galaxy's core is a strongly redshifted QUASAR. This means that the quasar is NOT at the outer regions of the universe...but NEARBY. Its redshift has nothing to do with velocity or distance - it is just an intrinsic, and yet unexplained, QUALITY of the quasar. And that means that the astronomers' assumptions about redshift, and everything that logically followed, are FALSE. (This image may be viewed at http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod-archive-04/tpod-quasar-in-front-of-galaxy.htm This revelation, so devastating to cherished theory, has not gone unnoticed. A group of distinguished astronomers, including Halton Arp himself, presented a paper on this very subject to the American Astronomical Society meeting in January 2004. The paper has also been submitted to an astronomical journal, with a peer review committee recommending heavy "editing" before publication. Permission to publish has yet to be granted. There is more to this story, and the facts grow increasingly unsettling. Halton Arp has been delivering critical information to astronomers for many years, and has paid a heavy price. Eventually, the astronomical community DENIED Arp further telescope time, forcing him to leave the United States to carry on his work (he is now affiliated with the Max Planck Institute in Germany.) The people responsible for these actions no doubt felt they were justified in ostracizing Arp for the "greater good." But the evidence is becoming clear that this is yet another black mark on science that will not be easily removed. Recently, dozens of top scientists, including Arp, Eric J. Lerner, and Michael Ibison authored an open letter to the scientific community, arguing that the dominance of big bang theory "rests more on funding decision than on the scientific method." They write: "Today, virtually all financial and experimental resources in cosmology are devoted to big bang studies. Funding comes from only a few sources, and all the peer-review committees that control them are dominated by supporters of the big bang. As a result, the dominance of the big bang within the field has become self-sustaining, irrespective of the scientific validity of the theory. "Giving support only to projects within the big bang framework undermines a fundamental element of the scientific method -- the constant testing of theory against observation. Such a restriction makes unbiased discussion and research impossible..." (Source: http://www.rense.com/general53/bbng.htm) Members of the general public need to fully understand the enormity of the stakes here. This is not just an issue for academicians fascinated by cosmology. The issue will affect the direction and quality of education for decades. It will also affect the ability of teachers to attract and inspire new students. And it will affect the path of space age exploration, involving BILLIONS of dollars in public expenditure. How would John Q. Public feel if he knew that his tax dollars are being spent to perpetuate a discredited picture of the universe? It must also be noted that major universities, laboratories, and research institutions are currently in rapid transition to something called "Internet II." The stated purpose of this project is to "facilitate the research and education missions of universities" and their affiliated institutions. That sounds benevolent enough, but as Servado Gonzalez writes in his article "Kiss Your Internet Goodbye": "Internet 2 will be fully controlled by the state. In order to access it, or to have e-mail access, you must be a member of, or be affiliated to, any of the government-authorized organizations and have a sort of security clearance. Internet 2 will be out of the reach of the general public..." (Source: http://www.rense.com/general36/inter.htm). It is now clear that the Establishment is taking deliberate measures to insulate itself from criticism by "outsiders." If you are a member of the general public who wants to stay abreast of scientific research and discoveries - including new images from space - you will be increasingly denied the ORIGINAL DATA. What you will get is information filtered through politically and financially motivated organizations. What will happen to the TRUTH in this scenario? Science may have lifted mankind from the abyss of the "dark age," but it also has the power to pull us back in.P. Phillips
September 12, 2006
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P. Philips, I did not answer your post because I did not read them. I scanned them, and once I found them to be links to bizarre sites and popularized books I dismissed them out of hand. There are many posts that I simply don't want to take the time to respond to--if you want to take that as a sign of the strength of your argument, feel free. Science is debated, for the most part, in the peer-reviewed literature, not by posting links to “metaresearch.org” and “holoscience.com”.David Heddle
September 12, 2006
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An "organized" conspiracy on a large scale? Doubt it. An internal emotion-based conflict affecting the practice of science at an individual basis? Perhaps: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/313/5788/750 http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/313/5788/752
"Another Nobel laureate, David Gross of the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics at the University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB), compares anthropic thinking to a disease. “I inoculate myself by emotional intensity against it because it’s very contagious,” he says."
"Landscape advocates reject such criticisms, contending that opposition to anthropic reasoning is largely emotional. “There’s no substantive scientific debate,” Susskind says. “The nature of what is going on is different emotional reactions to some facts and some interpretations of those facts that we’ve discovered.”
Joseph Polchinski “told cosmologist Sean Carroll a decade ago, if astronomers ever found evidence for a nonzero cosmological constant, he’d give up physics—because that would signal the need to invoke the anthropic principle.”
“And I said nobody believes that,” Polchinski recalls. “And when I said that, I knew I was lying. I knew that the evidence was mounting for the anthropic principle.”
Fortunately he didn't allow emotion to rule his decisions:
Dismayed by the anthropic implications, Polchinski was reluctant to publish the results, but [Raphael] Bousso [now at UC Berkeley] insisted. “We totally agreed on the science,” Polchinski says, “but he was the one who really said, ‘Look, we’ve got to publish this.’”....“Lenny [Susskind] came along and said, ‘Look, we can’t sweep this under the rug; we have to take this seriously,’” Polchinski says. “If this is the way things are, science is only going to move forward by thinking about it, not by pretending it’s not there.”
Patrick
September 12, 2006
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Does anyone else reading this thread find it interesting that Dave Heddle didn't respond to me? David, if you refute the Einstein Cross observations, how do you do so? Dave Scott does too, so what the hell! But I was interested in a thoughtful, considered, reasoned response. Orr debated Dembski, for example. Well, at least he didn't get personal. In the event, as Wallace Thornhill wrote, but not regarding this thread, but these comments: "The primary line of argument for black holes is that 1)we see things that are very heavy, very small, and dark 2) We have a number of other lines of evidence that make us think General Relativity is right, and 3) General Relativity demands that anything that heavy and small *has* to form a black hole. "That's not good enough for anyone, of course, it's just a place to start. As for the mass, this is deduced from the motion of stars around them, so if you don't even believe that stars orbit each other because of gravity then that doesn't help much." Thornhill replied: "It's instructive to witness the way the same old fallacies and invalid ways of looking at things pop up in these discussions. It is a good indication that the training of our physicists leaves a helluva lot to be desired. And in most cases it leaves the physicist unfit to judge which concepts apply in deep space and on the Sun." Now, if he does respond on "Arp proved wrong", which is absolutely false, I'll post it here. I don't think ID proponents or Big Bang opponents will confince anyone; and I don't believe that even if the orthodoxy is overturned, life will become better. The degradation of the species had been set in motion, and I have no idea how to combat it, other than on an individual level, and by this I mean the enviroment created where in the worst impulses of humanity are given free reign. Dalrymple, much more civilized and subtle than "angry" conservative commentators appeals to me: http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_4_oh_to_be.html http://www.manhattan-institute.org/ourculture/ Anyway, back to more important things. Best wishes even to the ones who believe they're on their way to a Theory of Everything!P. Phillips
September 12, 2006
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David Heddle writes: “I also see as nonsense the idea that papers against a certain theory constitute proof against the theory or, at the very least, are evidence that scientists conspire against attacks on the status quo.” I am not aware of anyone who has said this, at least on this post and its comment thread. Perhaps you would care to elaborate. My point is simple and obvious. A university with a reputable cosmology department issues a press release with the following heading: “New look at microwave background may cast doubts on big bang theory?” Can you imagine a reputable university issuing a press release with the following heading: “New look at evidence casts doubt on the long-held notion that the earth orbits the sun?” Neither can I. This simple thought experiment demonstrates (conclusively in my view) that the Big Bang theory and Copernican Heliocentrism are in different epistemological categories. I never said anything about a conspiracy. I don’t know where that came from.BarryA
September 12, 2006
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The amusing thing about the ID/flagellum brouhaha is when one wonders what the real concern of mainstream science is: 1) the hypothesis is incorrect but the means of falsification is too difficult 2) the hypothesis is correct and falsfication is only possible in principle Either beliefs being correct means the attempt to falsify the hypothesis will fail. No one wants to fail. I wonder which belief is more common? :lol:DaveScot
September 12, 2006
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