Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID’s Cultured Theological Despisers (#2)

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Denyse O’Leary’s post today at her Post-Darwinist blog takes Simon Conway Morris to task for attacking ID on bogus theological grounds (go here). Her post has finally moved me to begin a series here at UD on ID’s Cultured Theological Despisers. I had been thinking about doing this for some time. In fact, I already have one post on this blog (also titled “ID’s Cultured Theological Despisers” — go here) in which I challenged Conway Morris’s abuse of theology against ID. I now intend to make such postings, challenging a range of theologically motivated attacks on ID, a regular feature of this blog.

With regard to Simon Conway Morris, I’ve known him since the spring of 2000, when he spoke at a conference I helped organize (Baylor’s Nature of Nature Conference). At the time, he was sympathetic to ID — in fact openly so at the conference. Then in August of 2000 he took part in an ID symposium at New College, Oxford (Berlinski, Denton, and other Discovery Institute principals were there as well). It was clear at that meeting that he had turned against ID.

Since then he has had nothing kind to say about ID (at least on the biological side; he did provide a jacket endorsement for The Privileged Planet). In my interactions with him, I’ve found him condescending and evasive. At no point in our interactions (since the early days at Baylor) have I found him to engage ID’s actual arguments, explaining why they are defective on their own terms (as opposed to for theological reasons) and how his own approach is preferable scientifically. What I see from him are side-jabs, raising irrelevant considerations from theology and philosophy (cf. my review of Life’s Solution here: http://www.designinference.com/documents/2004.12.Conway_Morris_Solution.pdf).

Conway Morris’s message, along with those of his fellow theistic evolutionists, is, Don’t mess with the science; people like Dawkins are merely wrong about the implications they draw from the science. The ID approach, by contrast, is far more radical and is, in fact, winning the day, which I suspect is why Conway Morris and his colleagues are digging in their heels against ID. This has nothing to do with Christian charity or the search for truth, in my view, but everything with defending turf and reputation. ID is the academic equivalent of leprosy. Hence the constant ritualistic denunciations of it.

I therefore regard Denyse O’Leary as entirely on target in challenging Conway Morris the way she does on her blog. This is simply a matter of keeping unfair critics of ID like Conway Morris honest. Right now, in their cozy cossetted cocoons, these critics are permitted any denunciation of ID, no matter how ill-conceived or uninformed, and are moreover rewarded for their attacks on ID with Templeton bucks (go here — scroll down and see if you recognize some of the names).

Comments
From Denyse (who essentially started this): For what it is worth: I'm no academic or a scholar, but my nose is sharp. Thirty-five years in media trades sharpens the nose. I can smell "accommodation to the powers that be" halfway around the globe, and back again. Half the time, I don't understand the arguments, but I DO pick up the scent of accommodation. The characteristics are unmistakable. For example, Conway Morris was talking nonsense about the ancient Roman mystery cults. No one he was talking to would likely know much about them. They only want to be assured that he thinks ID is not true. Why bore them with specific arguments? They already know ID is not true because materialism is and msut be true. Right? Or ... ? Amazingly, despite being a veteran hack, I studied Latin and Roman civilization at university, and can, for example, understand most of the words in the Latin mass service book. That does NOT make me an expert in anything at all, but I can see - obviously - that ancient Roman mithraic and orphic mysteries have nothing to do with ID. So, I ask myself, if a guy belts out this nonsense, why does he do it? Can't he think of a reasonable objection? That's funny because both Ken Miller and Elliot Sober think they know reasonable objections to ID. Why can't Conway Morris come up with one? See, that's the kind of question a journalist is taught to ask. Lots of people get really upset when we ask those kinds of questions, but the sudden drop in room temperature is all part of the job. cheers, Denyse Toronto www.designorchance.comO'Leary
June 23, 2006
June
06
Jun
23
23
2006
05:29 PM
5
05
29
PM
PDT
mentok: right. I got so focused on the type part, which I substantively disagree with you on, that I didn't pay attention carefully to your wording. sorry. I get the impression from what you write that your vision of God has Him differing from humanity mainly in terms of scale, but not in terms of type. I was trying to convey that the essential difference is in type, scale being a meaningless register of our differences. The 'type' part is what really matters, and what I was trying to address with the example of the difference between human and animal consciousness. It is true that my sense that one cannot completely really know God's nature is only a subjective sense. However, your sense that you DO know God's nature completely is similarly subjective, and could be a delusion. Its just the lay of the land when it comes to metaphysical talk.tinabrewer
June 20, 2006
June
06
Jun
20
20
2006
10:12 PM
10
10
12
PM
PDT
Tina "scale and type" is more or less what you seem to disagree with and then turn around and agree with using different words. What is scale and type? Scale refers to quantity and type refers to quality. God is of a different scale then we are e.g we are small and God is large, we are limited in what we can do whereas God can do much more. God is a different type in that God is a cosmic being in control of nature with a mind and intellect which is vastly different then our own. God still has a mind and intellect, it's just of a different size and ability, superior to our own. You said "We can know, through inspiration and perhaps inference something about the Creator, molded of course into language and concepts which are within our limited ability to grasp. However, this should not be confused with actual knowledge of the Creator’s true basic nature." The first part I agree with and would also add that God can show us things about God. The second part of what you wrote is subjective to your own experience. You don't know what I have experienced nor what countless others have experienced. There very well could be many people who know (to a degree) the basic nature of God. That's up to God to reveal to whom God decides. Isn't it in the Bible that we are made in God's image? My understanding is that we have consciousness/self awareness and an intellect because God has that and that God made us like this in order to have people to relate with. bfast I'm not sure what you mean by "different time spheres". To me time is an ambiguous concept. My understanding is that God exists everywhere and experiences everything. Time for God is no different then it is for us except that God is doing much more in the same time frame. We may spend the next hour eating dinner, but God will spend the next hour experiencing everything in existence. The hour is still an hour, but God has much more going on then we do in that time frame. As for the "current understanding of cosmology"; that is a subjective viewpoint. I reject the Big Bang theory as do many others. I do not accept that time has a beginning. For problems with the Big Bang see: http://cosmologystatement.org/ http://bigbangneverhappened.org/ http://open-site.org/Science/Physics/Cosmology_Problems_Big_Bang/ http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Cosmology-Big-Bang-Theory.htmmentok
June 20, 2006
June
06
Jun
20
20
2006
08:44 PM
8
08
44
PM
PDT
testmentok
June 20, 2006
June
06
Jun
20
20
2006
08:43 PM
8
08
43
PM
PDT
Tina "scale and type" is more or less what you seem to disagree with and then turn around and agree with using different words. What is scale and type? Scale refers to quantity and type refers to quality. God is of a different scale then we are e.g we are small and God is large, we are limited in what we can do whereas God can do much more. God is a different type in that God is a cosmic being in control of nature with a mind and intellect which is vastly different then our own. God still has a mind and intellect, it's just of a different size and ability, superior to our own. You said "We can know, through inspiration and perhaps inference something about the Creator, molded of course into language and concepts which are within our limited ability to grasp. However, this should not be confused with actual knowledge of the Creator’s true basic nature." The first part I agree with and would also add that God can show us things about God. The second part of what you wrote is subjective to your own experience. You don't know what I have experienced nor what countless others have experienced. There very well could be many people who know (to a degree) the basic nature of God. That's up to God to reveal to whom God decides. Isn't it in the Bible that we are made in God's image? My understanding is that we have consciousness/self awareness and an intellect because God has that and that God made us like this in order to have people to relate with. bfast I'm not sure what you mean by "different time spheres". To me time is an ambiguous concept. My understanding is that God exists everywhere and experiences everything. Time for God is no different then it is for us except that God is doing much more in the same time frame. We may spend the next hour eating dinner, but God will spend the next hour experiencing everything in existence. The hour is still an hour, but God has much more going on then we do in that time frame. As for the "current understanding of cosmology"; that is a subjective viewpoint. I reject the Big Bang theory as do many others. I do not accept that time has a beginning. For problems with the Big Bang see: http://cosmologystatement.org/ http://bigbangneverhappened.org/ http://open-site.org/Science/Physics/Cosmology_Problems_Big_Bang/ http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Cosmology-Big-Bang-Theory.htm http://members.tripod.com/~geobeck/frontier/bbangint.html http://www.shortenurl.com/3lbwj http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/controversies/Arp_controversy.htm http://www.quackgrass.com/roots/arp.htmlmentok
June 20, 2006
June
06
Jun
20
20
2006
08:39 PM
8
08
39
PM
PDT
Mentok, Jesus said, "when Abraham was, I am". The only way for this to be valid is if Jesus lives simultaneously in multiple time spheres. The current understanding of cosmology is that time starts at the moment of the Big Bang. If one were to have created it, one would, of necessity, not be bound by time. According to the Bible and physics, God is not within time.bFast
June 20, 2006
June
06
Jun
20
20
2006
07:08 PM
7
07
08
PM
PDT
mentok: why do you assume that the difference between us and the divine is merely in "scale and type". For example, look at the differences between humans and animals. Many would argue that there is only a difference in "scale and type" between the intellectual activities of animals and those of humans. I disagree with this. I think the difference is far more fundamental: the things which humans do are not simply superior versions of the things animals do, they are fundamentally different, and inexplicable/incommunicable to animals, even the nearest of our extant primate relatives. This "quantum" difference must be but the faintest reflection of the difference between a human being and the Creator. We can know, through inspiration and perhaps inference something about the Creator, molded of course into language and concepts which are within our limited ability to grasp. However, this should not be confused with actual knowledge of the Creator's true basic nature.tinabrewer
June 20, 2006
June
06
Jun
20
20
2006
04:50 PM
4
04
50
PM
PDT
bfast can you define what you mean by "outside of time", it appears to me to be a very ambiguous concept. You wrote: "If an outside of time “person” arranges a logical phenomenon, say, the big bang, did that “person”’s method of making those arrangements really in any way resemble the time-centric reasoning that I do all of the time? Maybe, maybe not" I don't know what you mean by "time-centric reasoning". You also wrote: "I really don’t want to diminish the designer by concluding that the designer is somehow very much like me." If you conclude that the designer is without an intellect then you are diminishing the designer to the point of calling him/her a vegetable. Clearly the designer is not like us, it is superior, not inferior to us. At the same time it is similar to us in certain ways. We are conscious intellectual beings as is the designer. The difference between us is in scale and type, but we both possess the defining attributes which makes a person different then a vegetable e.g. self awarenses, an intellect, a mind. Without which there would be no designer.mentok
June 20, 2006
June
06
Jun
20
20
2006
02:32 PM
2
02
32
PM
PDT
metok:
“Intelligence does not exist independent of an intellectual thinking entity. In fact only an intellectual thinking entity can possess intelligence, nothing else.”
Let me see, if we consider the Christian God, this "person" is outside of time. When I reason, it is a very time-centric thing. If an outside of time "person" arranges a logical phenomenon, say, the big bang, did that "person"'s method of making those arrangements really in any way resemble the time-centric reasoning that I do all of the time? Maybe, maybe not! I really don't want to diminish the designer by concluding that the designer is somehow very much like me.bFast
June 20, 2006
June
06
Jun
20
20
2006
09:21 AM
9
09
21
AM
PDT
Tina it's all about a rational logical view of what "intelligence" is and what a "designer" is. Like I wrote previously: "Intelligence does not exist independent of an intellectual thinking entity. In fact only an intellectual thinking entity can possess intelligence, nothing else." If you are trying to make a case (whether you believe in it or not) for a non-intelligent impersonal cause for "front loading" or ID, then you are going to have to come to the conclusion that most people who believe in that have come to: They reject ID. If they are thinking through their belief rationally. What is "front loading"? That is the theory that evolution is programmed into "nature". If such a theory is in fact true then the cause of the "front loading" can only be one of 2 things. Either an impersonal force of nature (which can be called supernatural or not) or a personal force of nature. A personal force of nature would be an individual conscious entity with an intellect. Intellect is defined as "The ability to learn and reason; the capacity for knowledge and understanding." The impersonal force of nature would be without an individual self awareness and therefore without an intellect and without intelligence. The difference between the 2 would be similar to the difference between a man and vegetation. Vegetation is a seemingly impersonal force of nature which seemingly designs things without being an intellectual self aware entity. Vegetation takes dirt and water and light and produces highly sophisticated designs. Can vegetation plan for the future? No. Vegetation is without an intelllect, without the capacity to reason or think. Therefore vegetation is limited in what it can do. Vegetation reponds to the environment in an unconscious non-intellectual manner. Still it produces highly sophisticated designs. But it is limited in what it can do. A front-loading hypothesis which extols an impersonal non-intellectual force of nature as it's cause, is simply positing metaphysical naturalism. In order for "nature" to be "front-loaded" for evolution by something (other then just being a strictly naturalistic cause), that something would have to be able to cause the "front loading" knowing what it is causing. Without having an intellect and a desire and plan, then the philosophy for this supposed cause for "front loading" would be indistinguishable from *metaphysical naturalism*. Without an intellect, "God" is nothing more then a fancy way of saying nature. Without a mind God is simply a force of nature, like the sun or the weather. Without an intellect "front loading" is impossible because "front loading" implies a purpose and design and a vision for the future. None of those things are possible without an intellect and a mind. Without an intllectual entity there is no God of any type. It is simply a conceit to call that theology God based. It is metaphysical naturalism when God becomes reduced to an impersonal non-intellectual thing, might as well call God sunshine.mentok
June 17, 2006
June
06
Jun
17
17
2006
07:50 PM
7
07
50
PM
PDT
gotcha, mentok. The problem comes from the use of language sometimes. In my usage, "intellect" is a human quality, a brain function. The broader term "intelligence" associated with Intelligent Design is more of a description of something which involves "mind" and "intent", which can be far greater in power, and even fundamentally different in kind than the human "intellect". Also, the word "thinking", which you associate with the diety, would be a word I would associate more with a human-type entity. The other difficulty is that you insist that an "impersonal force without intellect" cannot be the designer. I disagree. I think it is entirely concievable that the nature of God could be completely impersonal and yet capable of bringing about the creation from out of nothing. This would be a deist position. The deistic view of an impersonal creator could be amenable to the ID view via the "front-loading" idea, for example. I am not saying that I personally have such a completely impersonal view of God, only that it could be concievable. Since we are not ourselves divine (according to traditional theology anyway) we cannot really know that the divinity acts in the same way, or acts through the same agencies we do (intellect, thinking, etc.)tinabrewer
June 17, 2006
June
06
Jun
17
17
2006
02:05 PM
2
02
05
PM
PDT
Tina my point is that ID requires a designer with an intellect and will, period. You cannot have a designer without a being capable of thinking up a design and then crafting that design. That means a thinking intellectual entity. Otherwise there is no question of ID being possible. I don't really understand how you view God. But it is my contention that if you have a theology which denies God an intellect and a power to act using that intellect, then you will see ID as impossible in the same way that atheists do. What is the causal impetus for ID? Intelligent Design denotes an *Intelligent* Designer. If your view of God is that God is some kind of impersonal force without intellect, then your view would most likely be that ID is something which God cannot accomplish. You would then be anti ID if you are a logical person. Intelligence does not exist independent of an intellectual thinking entity. In fact only an intellectual thinking entity can possess intelligence, nothing else.mentok
June 17, 2006
June
06
Jun
17
17
2006
12:13 PM
12
12
13
PM
PDT
TinaBrewer, when you say, "“If you see God as some kind of cosmic force rather than as an intellectual entity then you will see ID as impossible…”. This is simply incorrect from a theological standpoint." I wholeheartedly agree. I am encountering a significant percentage of active IDers who have come to very few conclusions on the nature of who the designer(s) is. I have, on occasion, bumped into ID athiests. I find the view puzzling, myself, but there is room in ID for explanations such ET. ID has been holding its big tent position very well. If anything the size of the tent is growing. It is for this reason that I find recent court decisions to be in error, even if that big tent does hold a lot of Christians.bFast
June 17, 2006
June
06
Jun
17
17
2006
10:10 AM
10
10
10
AM
PDT
bFast: I also agree, of course, that the idea that ID is in theological error is an unfounded idea. However, I was basing my response to mentok mainly on the following line from his post: "If you see God as some kind of cosmic force rather than as an intellectual entity then you will see ID as impossible...". This is simply incorrect from a theological standpoint. I see God much more as a "force" than a "person", though the term "force" is also far too general or vague. I like Gandhi's description of God: "I can see that in the midst of death, life persists. In the midst of untruth, truth persists. In the midst of darkness, light persists. Hence, I gather that God is Life, Truth, and Light. He is Love. He is the Supreme Good." As a Hindu, Gandhi probably did not conceive of God in the same way as a "mainstream Christian". However, I am also aware that he definitely believed that natural disasters, etc. were "acts of God", which acts are definitely not possible in a strictly deist view. I am just trying to insist here on the idea that many types of views of God can be appropriate under the 'big tent' of ID, and even fully agnostic, perhaps even atheistic views can be accomodated. That is its power and significance at this point in history.tinabrewer
June 17, 2006
June
06
Jun
17
17
2006
09:52 AM
9
09
52
AM
PDT
TinaBrewer, I fully agree with you that ID is a big tent position. If I read Mentok correctly, however, I think that he is saying that a "there is a personal God" Christianity is incompatible with a "'God did it' is bad theology" argument. ID does not obligate a personal God. But if a personal God, then saying suggesting that it is theologically anathema to suggest that the personal God acting with agency upon his creation makes no sense. Remember, Morris is basically saying "there is a personal God" and "those who hold an ID position, rather than a theistic evolutionary position are in theological error." I agree with Mentok that these two statements on Morris' part are incongruent.bFast
June 17, 2006
June
06
Jun
17
17
2006
09:26 AM
9
09
26
AM
PDT
mentok: you might need to move beyond the notion that ID is somehow intrinsically associated with just your own version of Christianity or religion. I myself have a far less human vision of what the Creator is in His essence than what you describe, and would probably be one of those "ridiculous...pseudo theological" persons. And yet, I am 100% in favor of ID being explored and taught. The fact of the matter is that ID is a 'big tent' including monists, pantheists, agnostics, Christians, pseudo-Christians, Jews, Hindus, you name it. The theistic evolutionists oppose ID for a number of reasons, none of which I happen to agree with, but generally not because they are unaware of God being, as you describe him a "thinking individual conscious person". Certainly believing that God is a "person" represents the greater theological error...tinabrewer
June 17, 2006
June
06
Jun
17
17
2006
07:48 AM
7
07
48
AM
PDT
Conway Morris "ID is surely the deist’s option, and one that turns its back not only on the richness and beauty of creation, but as importantly its limitless possibilities. It is a theology for control freaks." The belief that God only ever influences the course of creation in a completely undetectable way is very similar to saying that God really created in 6 days 6000y ago and planted the fossils to test our faith. Both these views are pre conceived. ID is not pre conceived. Michael Behe was truly surprised to find Irreducible Complexity. He didn't create it, he simply described it. ID is real, only if it is real! All theistic evolutionists believe in ID. They simply havn't articulated it. They simply believe that we can never prove it. We will see about that.idnet.com.au
June 17, 2006
June
06
Jun
17
17
2006
02:39 AM
2
02
39
AM
PDT
Denyse may be right in her thought that these "people of faith" are just covering their butts, but it is also my experience that there are many many people who claim to belong to monotheistic mainstream religions yet still have what would appear to be strange ideas about God and the nature of reality vis-a-vis their claim of being a Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc. Let's look at people like George Coyne or the people of the Templeton Foundation, or the large number of Christian leaders who support evolution. While they all claim to be Christian, their Christianity is not the Christianity of the mainstream Christian tradition. It is a Neo-Christianity. And I believe for the majority of them it is their theological views which are shaping their views on ID. If you see God as some kind of cosmic force rather then as an intellectual entity then you will see ID as impossible in the same way that atheists see ID as impossible. Then you might create some ridiculous psuedo philosophical, psuedo theological, psuedo argument to try and give off an aura of "knowing" or intuiting a higher religious "truth" then that of the caveman-like "fundamentalists" who foolishly believe God is an actual living thinking individual conscious person. What I see in most people who claim to believe in God and who oppose ID is that they oppose belief in a God who is involved with humanity. People like Coyne or Teilhard De Chardin and many others see God as some kind of "love thing" which is evolving with the Universe. Others have a monist or almost pantheistic vision of God, rather then seeing God as a thinking feeling willing entity. God is not a person with a mind and with emotions, rather God is some kind of impersonal cosmic something-or-another. They may call themselves Christians but they are Christians in the same way that Mormons are Christians. They may incorporate some aspect of Christianity into their belief system, they may even be priests, pastors, bishops, etc. But in reality they claim to be Christian and take those roles out of duplicity, they seek to change the traditional belief system to suit their own. They lie openly in an attempt to convert people to their way of thinking. The ends justify the means to them. They see themselves as the rightful spiritual leaders of the ignorant masses. Therefore pretending to be Christian priests (Coyne and others) while preaching against Christian teachings doesn't seem unethical and dishonest to them. "Scientists" pretending to be Christians are liars as well. They know it. They think they are fooling everyone.mentok
June 17, 2006
June
06
Jun
17
17
2006
02:04 AM
2
02
04
AM
PDT
Dr. Dembski, I read your review of "Life's Solutions" with interest. I have not read Dr. Morris's book, though it is on my short list because of his discussions about convergence. I am surprised however, that you have put Denton in the same camp as Morris. I have read both of Denton's popular works, "Evolution, a theory in crisis" and "Nature's Destiny". Though in Nature's Destiny Denton presents a very evolutionary model, I think it is clear that Denton is not a neo-Darwinist. Denton appears to be saying that if evolution is correct, then evolution is somehow prescribed in natural laws. He then seems to suggest that when these currently unknown natural laws will be found to be tuned just as the laws of physics are. He appears to be suggesting that the strong anthropic principal will reach far beyond physics and well into biology. Where Morris suggests that a teleological interpretation of the data is an option, Denton is clear that only a teleological interpretation is supportable. Denton's position certainly seems to call for a search for natural laws. A call that, I understand, has been somewhat addressed by Kauffman. I personally find that the strong anthropic principal drags a person to a teleological conclusion. (Certainly somebody can come up with a non-teleological solution, such as the multiverse, but any such solution is supported by philisophical necessity, rather than by evidence.) If the strong anthropic principal reached far into biology, if carefully tuned laws of nature, laws which are currently not understood, were shown to be adequate to explain all of the variety of life on earth, my sense of ID would be well satisfied.bFast
June 16, 2006
June
06
Jun
16
16
2006
03:47 PM
3
03
47
PM
PDT

Leave a Reply