ID Facebook Page heavies mad as hornets at UD News writer

_{Denyse O'Leary

November 18, 2013

Culture, Intelligent Design, Science}

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Timothy Kershner at the Intelligent Design Facebook page writes there,

I’m posting this NOT because I think it makes a good point, but rather because I’d like to know EXACTLY why the more “religious folk” are so animatedly opposed to searching for extraterrestrial life:

“This” refers to a piece that O’Leary (for UD News) wrote on the, ah, generous assumptions people make about the likelihood of encountering ET. His post has attracted 103 comments.

As noted there, I am not sure why Timothy Kershner thinks I am “against” searching for ET. My ENV series to date has studied how prior beliefs and desires govern what counts as evidence. For example, if Earth is a mediocre planet, why isn’t Mars? Or are we allowed to ask?

Why is it science to speculate that ET might be hiding in our junk DNA but not that Bigfoot might be hiding in the mountains? The cultural assumptions merit unpacking, and I mean to unpack them. People can be as upset as they please.

For the record, here is the series:

What has materialism done for science?

Big Bang exterminator wanted, will train

Copernicus, you are not going to believe who is using your name. Or how.

“Behold, countless Earths sail the galaxies … that is, if you would only believe …”

Don’t let Mars fool you. Those exoplanets teem with life!

But surely we can’t conjure an entire advanced civilization?

Of course you don’t have to read any of it before expressing an opinion. Rules like that went out with cucumber sandwiches and tea. But sometimes it is actually more fun to address the identified topic.

In outdated schools, they used to expect you to aim at and hit a specified target, not just throw stuff around and then get a self-esteem award. But some students actually enjoyed being on target, believe it or not. – O’Leary for News

Comments

Thanks Selva, Quite fascinating....equate65_{November 23, 2013
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Hi equate65, Most patterns can be explained by EM fields and interaction of EM eddies of more than one localized EM. In any Crop circle picture don't look at standing crop pattern. Look at pattern created by bent crop(the lighter color portions in image). You will find that most patterns are concentric circles, Bar and interference of the 2 shapes, which is consistent with EM field. EM is nothing but electromagnet so look at images of iron filings.you will see how closely they resemble crop circle patterns. If two circles are created by EM close to each other, the middle of the circle (where crop is standing) will look like tip of pyramid, which extends up to the circumference of the crop circle or the end of EM field. The combinations of circles and bar EM can create amazing variety of designs. Eg: Below is the EM coordinates of 2 EM interference fields: Lets take 17 coordinates of interfering magnetic eddies
{{0., 1.2}, {0.180347569987808, 1.1598301273032612}, {0.31554453682333494, 1.0539181001894673}, {0.37759261784475534, 0.9204838518536992}, {0.3662469376233495, 0.8067797622536416}, {0.3090169943749474, 0.7510565162951535}, {0.2505675022261833, 0.767973087013262}, {0.23556798830604195, 0.8430236535910302}, {0.2915423708426846, 0.938110078918853}, {0.418269744520502, 1.0061313243770045}, {0.5877852522924731, 1.0090169943749474}, {0.7549810402071845, 0.9323166416507785}, {0.8747584091877195, 0.7907720262964009}, {0.9191799306804422, 0.6227437070536992}, {0.8880702932342837, 0.4756205908737}, {0.8090169943749471, 0.387785252292473}, {0.7267708750435204, 0.37402339610400703}};
Let's interpolate: fx = Interpolation of 1st terms fy = Interpolation of 2nd terms If you then create a Parametric plot of terms fx[n],fy[n] ,where n is 1 to 17, you will get a bug with long tentacles! Of course all patterns can't be explained by EM. Certain artifacts in crop circles can form due to Crop bending due to stalk weakness by pest infection, water logging or wind patterns. If you are mathematically inclined, you can check out Maxwell equations and simulate an amazing variety of patterns with EM field interferences.selvaRajan_{November 23, 2013
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More> https://www.google.com/search?q=illuminati+crop+circles&client=opera&hs=aWv&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=R4uPUpvMJ8vdoATPhoL4Ag&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1440&bih=792equate65_{November 22, 2013
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@ SR: Here are some examples which may be considered Illuminati symbolism.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144224
My question is, how would the natural processes you describe above create such patterns, if any of these are true crop circles..equate65_{November 22, 2013
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Hi equate65 @38, AFAIK there is no scientific body collating information about crop circles because as far as most scientists are concerned,there is no mystery in crop circles. Most of the crop circle data is being maintained by cereologist, privately funded research bodies, avid fans and ET backers. So, unfortunately, if you want to see natural crop circles, you have no choice but to sort through the data maintained by 'non-scientists'. The following patterns in crop circle are found in natural crop circles: 1. The stalk of the cereal is not broken, but bent. The angle of bend can go up to 45 degree without breaking 2. The burst pattern on stalks are star burst like water nodule burst. 3. The circumference of the crop circle is not jagged. 4. High EM, magnetic flux is detected in field 5. Lightening strike should have occurred over /near the field within a week of Crop circle formation. It should be noted that there is no dispute about numerous genuine crop circle formation and effects seen in crop circles, the dispute is about the process by which crop circle is formed. While scientists agree lightening, EM and magnetic flux are responsible for Crop circles, others claim ET, Daemons and other extraterritorial and mystical forces are responsible, so whether you see images maintained by scientific body or non-scientific body should not matter since only the process is disputed. In my opinion, ET can contact Earthlings through SETI instead of doodling complicated diagrams in crop circle. Complicated formulas can be invoked by connecting arbitrary points in any diagrams- it depends on how bright the person who propagates the concept of Spirit or illuminati is.selvaRajan_{November 22, 2013
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@ Selva, Do you have any examples of what the non man made crop circles look like? There are so many, it's hard to tell which ones are the 'natural' ones. Another hypothesis, which ties into David's belief they may be formed by Aliens again ties into the first video I posted @ 17, in that from a Christian perspective, it may the work deceiving spirits. Further, the patterns of some appear to have Illuminati Symbolism.equate65_{November 22, 2013
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Hi Bruce,
I never claimed that humans couldn’t design them. I claim that there is zero evidence that humans are capable of producing them—including the documented physiological effects on the plants, layering of the crop, 90 degree bends in brittle plants, etc.—in the pitch dark in 5 hours or less.
No one is claiming that all crop circles are made by man. Crop circles are created by EM and magnetic flux too. Lightening facilitates the process were the right conditions exists. Lightening is nothing but electric discharge. Lightening also discharges EMP (electro magnetic pulses). Please Refer to comment @16
Experiments at Palaise de la Decouver in Paris using their EM generator has shown that force of EM is proportional to the Paddy stalk bending. The distribution of burst pattern in stalk were also similar to those found in most crop circles. Apparently When water nodules inside stalk burst- due to EM heat, they leave distinct patterns( as against rupture pattern left by man made crop circles).
Lightening also creates the environment for the effects seen:@24
Lightening ionizes the air over the paddy field, it creates extra EM and disrupts the magnetic flux. It is also the source of ball lightening (when combined with silica in soil)which moves over the paddy field. Many witness of crop circle see this ball lightening as a ‘ ball of light’ moving over the field.
Some crop circles are formed when there seems to be no lightening or other source of EM. How? Refer to quote @6
...EM generated has 2 effects on paddy stalk – 1.The water molecules in stem boils up 2. The Stem weakens and loses its natural elasticity Over time, the stem succumbs to gravity and bends -forming Natural crop circles- the important thing to note is that the effect of EM is not immediate. Some times it may take up to a week -this is what confuses most people into thinking it is the job of ET.
In short natural crop circles( not man made hoaxes) are created by a right combination of EM, magnetic flux. These conditions exists in certain paddy/cereal fields and this is what leads to 'natural' crop circles.selvaRajan_{November 21, 2013
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CannuckianYankee, re. #35: What's your point?Bruce David_{November 21, 2013
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"This statement reminds me of Darwinist attempts to refute ID by declaring that they know what God would or would not do (even though they don’t believe in God)." Maybe we could just create a computer model to show how humans could have done it thousands of years ago. :)CannuckianYankee_{November 21, 2013
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"Well, if you choose to remain in denial"
So now I am in denial simply because I do not buy into the perception that non human intelligence is involved. Got it..
"People will say the most ridiculous things in order to avoid a challenge to a cherished belief."
From where I sit, it would appear to be the other way around. The evidence highly suggest these are sophisticated man made images, yet you seem to want to insist this is not the case.
Those articles were written by people who are also in denial
The second one is a beginners guide to crop circles, the third one is a simple explanation. They both show, the intent of the craft is to fool people.equate65_{November 21, 2013
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equate65, re. #32: Well, if you choose to remain in denial, I certainly can't stop you. None of the articles you reference meet the objections I have already raised. Ie., they propose no technology that can come close to producing in five hours of darkness or less a large, complex crop circle of the kind seen repeatedly through the years including the documented physiological changes in the plants and other effects. Those articles were written by people who are also in denial. People will say the most ridiculous things in order to avoid a challenge to a cherished belief. Even otherwise very intelligent people will do this. We see it happen all the time in the ID/Darwinism debates.Bruce David_{November 21, 2013
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@ BD: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/10217151/Crop-circles-demystified-how-the-patterns-are-created.html http://www.circlemakers.org/guide2.html http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Crop-Circle For extreme darkness, night vision googles come to mind.equate65_{November 21, 2013
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I apologize for the duplicate post. I just clicked once and it produced two copies. No idea why.Bruce David_{November 21, 2013
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equate65, re. #28:
@ BD, Man has been known to create some pretty amazing things, I hardly think designing large complex patterns in fields is beyond our capabilities.
I never claimed that humans couldn't design them. I claim that there is zero evidence that humans are capable of producing them---including the documented physiological effects on the plants, layering of the crop, 90 degree bends in brittle plants, etc.---in the pitch dark in 5 hours or less. I also think it highly unlikely that if any person or group of people had that ability, that they would use it anonymously thousands of times, year after year, all over the world. What possible purpose could they have for going to such trouble and keeping it a secret for all these years?
To me the evidence simply suggests crop circle teams are getting better and better at their art, and as technology advances, so do the complexity of crop circle patterns.
"As technology advances" is very vague. What technology do you imagine has the required capability? I know of no human technology that is remotely capable of doing everything required in darkness in the time available. Nor have I seen any crop circle debunker propose any such technology either. The article you link to offers none, for example.Bruce David_{November 21, 2013
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@ BD, Man has been known to create some pretty amazing things, I hardly think designing large complex patterns in fields is beyond our capabilities. To me the evidence simply suggests crop circle teams are getting better and better at their art, and as technology advances, so do the complexity of crop circle patterns.
http://www.livescience.com/26540-crop-circles.html
equate65_{November 21, 2013
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equate65, re. #25:
How do you know ‘they’ have minds?
The crop circles are obviously designed. Design requires intelligence, which implies the existence of a mind.
Appears to me as our(humans)Technological advances and Scientific knowledge grew, so did the complexity of crop circles.
I assume that you conclude from this that humans could therefore have produced all the crop circles. Of course that can't be ruled out completely. Proving a negative is usually impossible. On the other hand, there is no positive evidence that there is any human technology that is actually capable of producing these formations, including all the physiological changes to the plants that have been documented, in the dark over the course of a single night in 5 hours or less. If such capability exists, it would have to be something that is unknown to the general public, including most scientists and crop circle researchers. And if it does exist, it begs the question of why someone in possession of it would use it to produce crop circles in large numbers year after year primarily in England but all over the world and remain completely anonymous. So we have two possible explanations here: 1. The formations are being produced by some non-human intelligence for a purpose which is not fully understood. 2. They are being produced anonymously by human beings using technology that is unknown to the general public for some unknown purpose. To me, the second appears to be highly unlikely and basically an attempt to avoid the first conclusion.Bruce David_{November 21, 2013
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^ Excuse above HTML tag error...equate65_{November 21, 2013
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"we don’t know how their minds work, nor do we fully understand their purpose"
How do you know 'they' have minds?
"The evidence strongly suggests that some large fraction of crop circles are the creations of some non-human intelligence",/blockquote> And there is other evidence this may not be the case. Also, again, why do you think 'they' like southern England so much, and why did the complexity of designs grow as time went on? Appears to me as our(humans)Technological advances and Scientific knowledge grew, so did the complexity of crop circles.
equate65_{November 21, 2013
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selvaRajan, re. #20:
Lightening ionizes the air over the paddy field, it creates extra EM and disrupts the magnetic flux. It is also the source of ball lightening (when combined with silica in soil)which moves over the paddy field. Many witness of cropcirle see this ball lightening as a ‘ ball of light’ moving over the field.
Lightning obviously could not create the crop circles by striking the field. So I presume that you mean that it creates the noted physiological effects in the plants by occurring near or above the fields shortly before, during, or after the formations have been created by some other means, presumably by a "bunch of guys going around at night and building their own man made crop circles" in your words. But the fact that in all the studies of these effects, none were found in the controls that were taken in the fields from outside the formations falsifies that hypothesis. Furthermore, there are effects on the viability of the seeds, as I mentioned in #18, which cannot be explained by the action of lightning: compared to seeds taken from plants outside of the formations, seeds from plants within the formations either 1) do not grow if the plants were immature, or 2) grow larger plants that are more resistant to stress (eg. drought conditions) if the plants were mature. Also, lightning cannot explain how plants that would normally break when bent beyond 45 degrees---rape or mature cereal plants---could be neatly bent 90 degrees just above ground level. Finally, lightning cannot explain how plants could be laid down in layers where the plants underneath lie in a different direction from those above.
Don’t you think it is odd that Aliens are creating Crop Circles instead of sending message through SETI channels? Wouldn’t it be better to seek reasons for the phenomenon on Earth and then move on to other unknown explanations?
This statement reminds me of Darwinist attempts to refute ID by declaring that they know what God would or would not do (even though they don't believe in God). The evidence strongly suggests that some large fraction of crop circles are the creations of some non-human intelligence. To attempt to falsify this conclusion because we think they should have chosen some other means of communication is clearly erroneous---we don't know how their minds work, nor do we fully understand their purpose.Bruce David_{November 21, 2013
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Mapou at 14. "If you want powerful evidence of aliens on earth, forget crop circles. Instead, take a look at these megalithic stones in Baalbek, Lebanon." I agree that it may be powerful evidence of something peculiar; spectacular even, but what would cause anyone to jump to a conclusion that it must have been alien beings? I think that it could have been alien beings, don't get me wrong on this, but I agree with SelvaRajan at 16: "Why would Aliens create crop circles at all? What purpose does it serve? If they are leaving a message, don’t you think they could be more explicit? (given their level of intelligence)." Apply that to megalithic stones in Baalbek, Lebanon, and you get the same question. Why would a highly advanced alien race want to do anything with heavy stones on earth, when they have the technology to do something more (presuming they're trying to communicate). If they're not trying to communicate, you still have to ask the question of "why?" And since you can't answer that from the presumption that they are aliens, neither can you assume that they are. That it was humans would be the more logical area of inquiry first. Rule that out, and you can then explore other solutions. I think it would be very difficult to rule out humans as theri creators. You can't just assume that humans couldn't have done that. I realize this might sound a bit like "why would the creator do that?" which is a question IDers criticize Darwinists for. But when we're dealing with beings with presumably limited knowledge and ability, whether they are human or otherwise, we have to ask these questions. Skepticism about such claims is warranted if we have evidence of humans having the ability to create such things. All would be needed here is for a group of humans to test the theory that it couldn't have been humans, by actually creating the stones themselves with primative tools. I doubt if anyone has the interest, time or money to do so.CannuckianYankee_{November 21, 2013
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Mysterious Crop Circles Debunked by Physics and Technology? Excerpts: "Explanations for the sophisticated patterning of crop circles vary, but science, with a hint of art, can explain the craft and speed of their creation, says a U.S.-based Professor of Physics, Psychology, and Art." "Serious attention was given to the simple circles in 1980 in southern England. The designs appeared primarily as simple circles, circle with rings, and variations on the Celtic cross up into the mid-1980s. Then they developed straight lines and created pictograms, not unlike petroglyphs. *After 1990 the designs developed exponentially in complexity, and today it is not unusual to come across designs mimicking computer fractals and elements that relate to fourth dimensional quantum physics."
http://www.ibtimes.com/mysterious-crop-circles-debunked-physics-and-technology-837533
equate65_{November 21, 2013
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Correction: Read 'cropcirle' as crop circle and 'ditance' as distance in the earlier @20 comment.selvaRajan_{November 21, 2013
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Bruce @18,
That lightning strikes can have anything to do with the phenomenon is so preposterous that I won’t waste any more time on that proposition.
Lightening ionizes the air over the paddy field, it creates extra EM and disrupts the magnetic flux. It is also the source of ball lightening (when combined with silica in soil)which moves over the paddy field. Many witness of cropcirle see this ball lightening as a ' ball of light' moving over the field. In fact the volume of this - if you consider it as simple toroid is: 1/4(pi)^2(R+r)(R-r)^2, R is the ditance between outer circumference and middle of the ball lightening.While r is the ditance between inner circumference and middle of the ball lightening. Don't you think it is odd that Aliens are creating Crop Circles instead of sending message through SETI channels? Wouldn't it be better to seek reasons for the phenomenon on Earth and then move on to other unknown explanations?selvaRajan_{November 21, 2013
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Someone is trying to communicate with us earthlings, people, and they most likely are not human.
What do you think these non human 'someone's' are trying to communicate? and why do they like southern England so much?equate65_{November 21, 2013
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Ok, here are some things to consider for those who still cling to the belief that all crop circles can be explained as the result of human and/or natural causes. 1. That lightning strikes can have anything to do with the phenomenon is so preposterous that I won't waste any more time on that proposition. 2. W. C. Levengood and others have done research on physiological and other effects manifested in plants taken from within crop circles compared with controls taken from outside the formations in the same field at the same time. There were a number of anomolies, none of which could be produced by physical bending of the plants via dragged planks, garden rollers, etc.: 1) plant nodes near the tops of the plants were elongated, 2) expulsion cavities in the nodes lower down on the plants, 3) significant differences in the viability and productivity of seeds between plants from within the formations and those from outside of them. These findings were published in peer reviewed journals. Details can be found at bltresearch.com. 3. Flattened plants in genuine circles are always bent roughly 90 degrees at ground level. In canola plants and mature cereal plants this cannot be the result of physical force such as would be the result of the use of planks or rollers to bend the stalks, as they would break under such stress. 4. In many crop circles, the flattened crop is layered with plants lying one direction on top of plants lying in another. Again, this cannot be accomplished by the use of physical means such as planks or rollers. 5. No one denies that some crop circles are the result of human action. But no one who has studied them seriously denies that some percentage of them cannot be so explained. Several people have undertaken extensive investigation of them to determine what percentages can and cannot be explained as being the result of human activity. The smallest estimate for those that cannot is 20%. There have been over 10,000 crop circles reported world wide since 1970. 20% of 10,000 is 2,000. So by that recconing, at least 2,000 formations have appeared that cannot be explained as the result of human activity. 6. Lastly, the circles almost always appear overnight. Since darkness in summer in England lasts approximately 5 hours, that means that they are produced in the space a maximum of 5 hours and in the dark. Just look at the circles that are documented on temporarytemples.co.uk. For example, look at Milk Hill, 12 August 01. It consists of six spiral arms radiating from a central circle. Each arm consists of 61 circles of varying sizes in a complex pattern, and each spiral arm is an exact duplicate of all the others. Including the central circle, there are thus a total of 367 circles in the formation, spread over an area the size of several football fields. To produce this in 5 hours requires one circle to be produced every 49 seconds! Many of the component circles are quite large. This is clearly impossible for one or two people working with planks or rollers. In fact I challenge anyone who thinks it could be done to copy that formation accurately onto a piece of paper, filling in each of the circles, using only a compass and a ruler, in less than 2 hours. If you believe that it could be done by a team of people, consider the problem of coordinating their activity at night, in the dark. Similar comments can be made about a large number of other formations. They are simply too big and too complex to have been produced in the dark in a few hours by human beings using known equipment. Someone is trying to communicate with us earthlings, people, and they most likely are not human.Bruce David_{November 20, 2013
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A Good video on why it may be a problem for Christians (Aliens/ET addressed beginning @ 54:00):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjmFm8PIz8M
equate65_{November 20, 2013
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Bruce @7
So your theory is that the crop circle makers have produced thousands of these formations during the few hours of darkness of English summer nights using EM to bend the crops into these intricate and mathematically precise formations? Please
You are just pulling my leg! You know most use Wooden Planks unless you are referring to those MIT guys who built and used magnetron made from microwave. I believe both BBC and Discovery Channel aired documentaries about crop circle creators. Those guys worked at night and created complicated crop circles in few hours. Experiments at Palaise de la Decouver in Paris using their EM generator has shown that force of EM is proportional to the Paddy stalk bending. The distribution of burst pattern in stalk were also similar to those found in most crop circles. Apparently When water nodules inside stalk burst- due to EM heat, they leave distinct patterns( as against rupture pattern left by man made crop circles). I urge you to collect at least two aspects about the environment(where ever possible) in which crop circles exists: 1) Find if there was lightning strike over or near the fields within a week of crop circle creation. 2) Is the EM or magnetic flux in field generally higher than surrounding? Is the field in question located over magnetic flux line? If there is no reason to believe either of the above were absent and yet we have 'natural crop circles', it would be an interesting mystery to solve. Just curious -could you answer these: - Why would Aliens create crop circles at all? What purpose does it serve? If they are leaving a message, don't you think they could be more explicit? (given their level of intelligence) - Why do you think crop circles predominately occur in England? Do you have data about the period in which most crop circles are created? It could hold some answers. - What method do they use for Crop Circle creation? Do they EM beam from space craft hovering over field or do they use some sort of projectile to move over field?selvaRajan_{November 20, 2013
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Robert Byers:
Its against Christianity to believe in aliens because of the belief in the fall.
Nonsense. That is bad logic and bad doctrine. I've already addressed this in detail on the other thread. There is precisely nothing in Christianity or Biblical doctrine per se that would argue against extraterrestrial intelligence.Eric Anderson_{November 19, 2013
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CannuckianYankee, If you want powerful evidence of aliens on earth, forget crop circles. Instead, take a look at these megalithic stones in Baalbek, Lebanon. Some of those puppies weighed more than 1200 tons! One of them, the stone of the pregnant woman, is still in a quarry waiting to be transported to a temple site at the top of a hill many miles away. It seems that the builders had to leave in hurry. We don't have any equipment that could transport those monsters. I don't know for sure when those stones were quarried but I read somewhere that it was a long time before the stone age. There are similar megalithic constructions at Tihuanaco in Bolivia, South America, near lake Titicaca. And, of course, there is Egypt where there is a cracked 1400 tons (IIRC) obelisk that was also left in a quarry. If it had not been damaged, it would have been transported across the Nile to the site of the pyramids many miles away!Mapou_{November 19, 2013
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