Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Hyperskepticism: The Wrong Side Of A Continuum

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Philosophers and scientists who know their business recognize that any attempt to seek knowledge presupposes the existence of a rational universe ripe for investigating. The fact that we even bother to make the effort says something about our nature. As Aristotle says, “all men by nature want to know.” That is why the discovery of a new fact or truth can be a joy for its own sake. To be sure, knowledge also provides practical benefits, empowering us to pursue a self-directed life style, but it also edifies us, leading us on the road to self-actualization. To be intellectually healthy is to be curious.

On the other hand, we can, by virtue of our free will, act against our natural desire to know. For better or worse, there are some truths that many of us would prefer not to know about. The compelling nature of an objective fact can pull us in one direction while the force of our personal desires can pull us in the opposite direction. When this happens, a choice must be made. “Either the thinker conforms desire to truth or he conforms truth to desire.”–E. Michael Jones

Because we experience this ambivalence about the truth, we must be on guard against two errors: (a) talking ourselves out of things that we should believe [hyperskepticism] or (b) talking ourselves into things that we should not believe [gullibility]. Hyperskeptics attempt to justify the first error by calling attention to the second error, as if there was no reasonable alternative to either extreme. On the contrary, the ideal solution is to seek a rational midpoint –to balance a healthy skepticism about unconfirmed truth claims with a healthy confidence in truths already known. The one thing a thinker should not do is be skeptical or open-minded about the first principles of right reason, without which there is no standard for investigating or discoursing about anything “Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”– G. K. Chesterton

In the spirit of public service, then, I present this little test for analyzing our readers’ proclivity for hyperskepticism. Hopefully, those who indulge will not find any predictable patterns, since I strove to keep them at a minimum.

Yes or No

[1] Can we know anything about the real world?

In asking this question, I am probing for your orientation on the matter of external facts with respect to our internal experience. Can we really know if such a thing as a tree exists, or is it the case that we simply experience mental representations of something that may not be a tree at all? [Reminiscent of Kant’s hyperskepticism]

[2] If the answer to [1] is no, is it, under those circumstances, possible to conduct rational investigations or participate in rational discourse?

If I can feel the experience of something that seems like a tree, without knowing that it is a tree, or if I am just using words to describe my experience, can I use my reason to draw other meaningful conclusions about the world? In other words, can I, absent a knowable external reality, reason not just validly [with internal consistency] but also soundly [align my understanding with the truth of things]?

True or False

[3] The law of non-contradiction [a thing cannot be and not be at the same time] is not a self-evident truth.

Inasmuch as scientific progress has demonstrated that Aristotle was wrong about the four basic elements of the earth, it is not unreasonable to suggest that he was also wrong about his so-called laws of logic.

[4] The law of causality is a self-evident truth.

I can accept this proposition unconditionally, not only as a second law of logic, but also as an intellectual companion to the first law of logic? Put another way, if a thing cannot be and not be at the same time, that fact influences or informs the law that nothing can come into existence without a cause. There is a logical connection between the claim that Jupiter cannot both exist and not exist and the claim that it cannot come into existence without a cause?

[5] Our knowledge of the real world is reliable but imperfect.

We may not know everything there is to know about a tree, but we do know that something is there that we call a tree and that it is more than just a collection of parts–something that exhibits “treeness.”

[6] A finite whole can be less than any one of its parts.

A crankcase can, in some cases, be greater than the automobile of which it is a part.

[7] The universe is ordered.

Material objects move in such a way as to indicate some kind of function or purpose.

[8] The universe may be ordered to a purpose, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it needed an intelligence to do the ordering or establish the purpose.

Purpose can exist without intelligence.

[9] The universe is, indeed, ordered, but that doesn’t mean that its order is synchronized with our mind’s logic.

The mind’s logic [if it’s raining, the streets will get wet] may be inconsistent with the order of the universe [If it’s raining, the streets may not necessarily get wet.] The proposition that there is an unfailing correspondence between the logic our rational minds and ordering of the rational universe is something that should be demonstrated through evidence and cannot be reasonably accepted as a “self-evident truth.”

[10] There can be more than one truth?

Each specialized branch of knowledge can have its own brand of truth, and that truth may well be incompatible with truths found in other specialized areas.

[11] In some cases, a cause can give more than it has to give.

Something can come to exist in the effect that was not first present in the cause. It may well be, for example, that an immaterial mind could emerge from matter even though matter has no raw materials containing anything like immaterial mental substances.

12-20, Yes, No, or I don’t know.

[12] Does truth exist?

Is truth absolute, not relative–objective, not subjective–universal, not contextual–and indivisible, not many?

[13] Is there such a thing as the natural moral law?

Is there an objective standard of right and wrong that we [humans] did not invent [or socially construct] and to which we are morally obliged to follow in spite of our personal preferences or in spite of public opinion?

[14] Does the human conscience exist?

Do we, as humans, possess some kind of inborn instinct that makes us feel bad about ourselves when we do something wrong and feel good about ourselves when we do something right. Can that same conscience be habitually silenced and ignored to the point at which it stops sending signals?

[15] Is design detectable?

Can we discern the presence of intelligence from the biological and cosmological patterns found in nature? Can we discover the presence of intelligence from patterns found in human artifacts even if we know nothing about the history of those artifacts? Can minds detect the activity of other minds?

[16] Does God exist?

Is there a personal, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, self-existent God who created the universe and all the creatures that inhabit it?

[17] Is God organic with the universe?

Could God and the universe be one and the same thing?

[18] Can matter investigate itself?

In order for a scientist or a philosopher to investigate the universe or the world, must he exist as a substance of a different kind than the object of his study? Are two such realms of existence really necessary, or can the relationship between the investigator and the object of investigation be explained from a monistic framework.

[19] Evidence can speak for itself; it need not be interpreted by or mediated through the rules of right reason.

Science can stand alone. It needs no metaphysical foundations in order to be rational.

[20] Ask yourself this question: Do I have free will?

Do I have something to say about my fate? Can I say that I could have made choices other than the ones that I did make, or that I could have created outcomes different than the ones I did create? Do I have the power to act contrary to my nature, predisposition, desires, and appetites?

True/ False

[21] If the ordered universe is synchronized with the laws of logic, it could be a coincidence.

Even if we do have “rational” minds, and even if they do correspond to a “rational universe,” there is no reason to suggeset that it had to be set up by something or someone. It could just be that way.

[22] Theistic Darwinism is a reasonable hypothesis.

A purposeful, mindful God may well have used a purposeless, mindless process to create humans.

[23] A universe can come into existence without a cause.

Not all effects require causes. Further, some things that are often characterized as effects, such as our universe, may not really be effects at all. Even if it does, itself, act as a cause, the physical universe could be, but need not be, the result of a prior cause.

[24] Unguided evolution is a reasonable hypothesis.

There is no reason to believe that humans could not emerge as a lucky accident from solely naturalistic forces.

[25] Cause and effect can occur without a first cause.

Granted, a cause/effect chain exists in nature, but that fact alone does not compel us to posit that only a first cause or causeless cause can explain

Comments
UB writes, "Skeptics always look to quantum events as a model for that which has no cause – quantum events are not merely unpredictable, but are indeed without cause. Odd isn’t it. Something that happens without reason, or constraint, does so at a set rates over time." I've made it clear that I don't know whether quantum events are caused or not, and I don't think anyone does. But the truth of the matter is that they present puzzles that don't fit neatly into our prior models of the nature of reality. And no one has suggested that they just happen without any pattern: they exhibit all the hallmarks of being governed by probabilities. How this is possible and what the cause of them being like this are also unknown. Consider the analogy with throwing a dice (and remember analogies are always just meant to suggest ideas - they are not to be an exact model). There is a reason why the probability of throwing any one number is 1/6 - because the dice has 6 sides, etc., but on any one throw there is no reason why a 1 shows up and not a 2 - that is random.Aleta
October 15, 2010
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Skeptics always look to quantum events as a model for that which has no cause - quantum events are not merely unpredictable, but are indeed without cause. Odd isn't it. Something that happens without reason, or constraint, does so at a set rates over time.Upright BiPed
October 15, 2010
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And don't go telling me how I would answer your questions. Ask, if you wish (although I have been addressing some of the issues), but don't assume.Aleta
October 15, 2010
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We are not talking about the birth of the universe. And my position on quantum events is based on evidence - not personal whim: they appear to be probabilistic, not determined by any antecedent. And I offered two scenarios: that they are truly random, or that they are caused by some metaphysical reality, and I did not say (because I don't know) which of those two I think is most likely. I assume that you believe quantum events are caused by something. Any idea what, and any way to test your idea? Are you open to the idea that each one is an expression of God's will?Aleta
October 15, 2010
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---Aleta: "The issue here is the difference between the abstract logic and the model of the world to which the logic is applied." You will notice that another among the many issues I addressed in my post was the relationship between the laws of logic and the ordering of the universe. Notice the relevant test questions: [true/false] [9] The universe is, indeed, ordered, but that doesn’t mean that its order is synchronized with our mind’s logic. The mind’s logic [if it’s raining, the streets will get wet] may be inconsistent with the order of the universe [If it’s raining, the streets may not necessarily get wet.] The proposition that there is an unfailing correspondence between the logic our rational minds and ordering of the rational universe is something that should be demonstrated through evidence and cannot be reasonably accepted as a “self-evident truth.” [21] If the ordered universe is synchronized with the laws of logic, it could be a coincidence. Even if we do have “rational” minds, and even if they do correspond to a “rational universe,” there is no reason to suggeset that it had to be set up by something or someone. It could just be that way. Your hyperskepticism prompts you to answer false to question 9 and true to question 21. Check out all the other questions, because they are all related to the issue of identifying the presence of hyperskepticism. I think you would score very high.StephenB
October 15, 2010
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---Aleta: [Are quantum events caused} "I don’t know, and I don’t think anyone does." Well, of course I knew that you would say that. In spite of your protests that you are not a hyperskeptic, and in spite of your earlier claims that you agree that causality is a law, you are wide open to the possibility that quantum events are uncaused, as I knew you were from your comments about radio-active decay. As a hyperskeptic, you embrace what I call "selective causality." If you want it to be caused, it was; if you don't want it to be caused it wasn't. You are open to the possibility all kinds of uncaused events, including the birth of a universe itself.StephenB
October 15, 2010
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Stephen asks, "Can the planet Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time?" No, given our very clearcut understanding of "exist" in respect to Jupiter. Can a virtual particle exist and not exist at the same time? I'm not sure that is a meaningful question. The issue here is the difference between the abstract logic and the model of the world to which the logic is applied. The proposition ~(P and ~P) is the law of non-contradiction in abstract form: it is a law of logic which I, of course, accept as part of standard logic theory. However, as soon as we apply it to a fact about the real world, we have to consider the words and concepts that are represented by P. Throughout most of history our experience with things, "existing" has been clearcut, and at the macro level in respect to quantum events, and thus the model has consistently worked. However, we now find that maybe "existence" is not such a clearcut concept at the quantum level. So it's not that the law of non-contradiction itself is being questioned: what is being questioned is whether the concept of existence is clearcut enough that it can accurately be correlated to the abstract P in the law. The situation is like the bird example in a reply above to Clive. If we find that at quantum level things seem to exist and not exist at the same time, then, in order to preserve the applicability of the law of non-contradiction, we need to change our understanding of what existence is (although some people have instead worked on developing a different logical systems that might apply better to quantum events, much like non-Euclidian geometry was developed to better account for different types of spaces.)Aleta
October 15, 2010
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faded_Glory: I didn't propose that anything came into existence without a cause. It is my opinion that human wills (humans meaning those of us with free will) are eternal acausal aspects of divine will. It is my view that there is no logical "room" in existence for more than one acausal free will. This would necessarily mean that all entities with "free will" are manifest aspects of that one free will, and not actually separate iterations or "later" creations. IMO such concepts violate certain necessary conclusions of what it means for there to be a logically-consistent omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient free will entity in existence.William J. Murray
October 15, 2010
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This discussion reminds me of India where law of non-contradiction and laws of logic are just a "useful models" and contradictory stories about gods are accepted without flinching i.e Krishna, Buddha, Christ and others can be Gods at the same time without logical problems to the believer. It's truly sad for the world when people are forced to reject logic and causality because of their religious worldviews and beliefs. If one rejects logic what is there to discuss? What arguments can be used to share knowledge and compare worldviews? What argument would anyone use to discuss with a person who believes "reason can be rejected when it becomes inconvenient for my worldview?"Innerbling
October 15, 2010
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Stephen writes, "–Aleta: “I think I will do the scrutinizing this time. Are quantun events acausal?" I don't know, and I don't think anyone does. Feynman says that we need to recognize that probability - true randomness - is at the heart of quantum mechanics. Others, who among other things find this hard to accept, posit "hidden variables" - causes that are "hidden behind the quantum curtain" (to use a very nice phrase that a friend used once.) We really have no way of telling. We are certain that quantum events do demonsrate all the patterns of probability distributions, but whether something/someone is the hidden cause of that phenomena is beyond our ability to investigate. There are some theists who have hypothesized that it is through quantum events that God guides the world and at the same time violates no natural laws - that all quantum events are caused by God's will. Others have hypothesized that quantum events respresent the interface between the nameless Tao and the real world, and are the vehicle by which the creative power, yang, guides the passive material world. Both of these speculations allow for there being unknown guidance in the world, and for there being possible conenctions between events that are not locally adjacent in time or space. But both are just metaphysical speculations - we have no way of knowing what is going on behind the quantum curtain, or whether there is anything other than true randomness.Aleta
October 15, 2010
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Stephen, 193 and counting. Keep up the good work! Of course (as someone else has said) there are really no hyperskeptics. They all look out for oncoming traffic before they step out into the street. I think Aleta does not want to make the next step and accept that through pure logic we can determine there has to be a first cause. The understanding that there can not be an infinite regress, combined with everything we see having a cause, combined with non-contradiction makes that clear. Why Aleta does not want to make the next step, only he knows. But that is the remarkable thing about free will. We always have a choice, and we know we have that choice. Good luck and God BlessGCS
October 15, 2010
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--Aleta; "What I don’t believe is that we can find truth through pure logic about things that we can’t empirically experience." Can the planet Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time?StephenB
October 15, 2010
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--Aleta: "That is, are you sure that nothing can move “unless an efficient cause makes it happen”? I think I will do the scrutinizing this time. Are quantun events acausal?StephenB
October 15, 2010
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Pedant in 182: "How can an empirical hypothesis invalidate laws of logic?" I think I already answered this one. "Take the hypothesis that an evil spirit inhabits my grandmother. That may be unlikely, but is it illogical?" It would be illogical if the evil spirit is self-created and came into being non-caused out of nothing.Innerbling
October 15, 2010
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Point 2: Stephen writes, "Hyperskeptics begin with the wrong premise, assuming either that there is no truth, or that it cannot be apprehended. Obviously truth does exist because reality exists, and there has to be something true about reality." Then I am not a hyperskeptic, because I believe neither of those things. What I don't believe is that we can find truth through pure logic about things that we can't empirically experience.Aleta
October 15, 2010
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Stephen writes, "Nothing can move or come into existence unless an efficient cause makes it happen." Suppose we have a radioactive substance with a half life of one year, which means that any one atom has about a 1.6 x 10^-8 probability of decaying in any one second. Suppose I have, then about 6 x 10^7 molecules, so that in this one second, it is most likely that one molecule wil decay. Let's suppose that during this one second, atom 3,678,378,578 (which we will call X for short) decays. Why did X decay, and not one of the others? Was there an efficient cause that acted upon X, and none of the other atoms, so as to create the effect of X decaying? Or was it, as is at least one of the possible explanations of quantum theory, a truly random event that has no cause. That is, are you sure that nothing can move "unless an efficient cause makes it happen"?Aleta
October 15, 2010
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Pedant @183, anyone who believes in a self created universe, regardless of his/her level of achieved fame, is a manifestly irrational person.StephenB
October 15, 2010
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Sceptics sometimes dismiss ID as non-science because the design process cannot observed today or be replicated in the lab. What about self creation, then? (I think the whole term is an oxymoron.)Alex73
October 15, 2010
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---Aleta: “So I’m not saying that the law of contradiction doesn’t apply to the metaphysical world – I’m saying we know nothing about the metaphysical world to apply our logic to.” It is through philosophy, metaphysics, and the philosophy of science that we learn about the first principles of right reason by which we interpret our experience of the physical world. In fact, the metaphysical world and the physical world do not really represent two different worlds at all; they are part of the same reality. You carry on as if they were two different realities. I asked 25 questions in my little quiz, but everyone has ignored them not realizing the ways in which each one is connected with the other. Hyperskeptics, as irrational relativists, believe that a truth in one branch of knowledge can contradict truths in another branch of knowledge. If that was the case, there would be no such thing as truth or no such thing as knowledge. In question 10, for example, I deal with the UNITY OF TRUTH, which is one of the rules of right reason. There is one truth with many aspects, not many truths. Metaphysical truths are consistent with cosmological truths, which are, in turn, compatible with physical truths, which are, in turn, compatible with biological truths, which are, in turn compatible with ethical truths. The first principles of right reason apply across the board. Forget about final causes if you like and focus solely on efficient causes. Nothing can move or come into existence unless an efficient cause makes it happen. That means that a universe cannot come into existence unless an efficient cause makes it happen. In like fashion, a thing cannot exist and not exist at the same time and under the same formal circumstances. That is not just a statement about the logic of our minds; it is a statement about the real world. Jupiter cannot exist and not exist at the same time. God cannot exist and not exist at the same time. If the rules of right reason were not universal, they would be useless. Can you imagine the chemist saying to the physicist that the laws of physics had nothing to do with laws of chemical bonding? It is just as ridiculous for the cosmologist to say that the rules of right reason do not apply to the origins of the universe. ---"I consider all your arguments about God of this variety. [arbitrarily conceived logical systems]." You may believe that to be the case, but you are wrong. There are ontological arguments for God’s existence, which are something like your characterization, and then there are cosmological arguments that begin with observations about the real world. You appear not to know the difference. I haven’t made any arguments at all for the existence of God on this thread, but if I did, they would begin with empirically based facts. What I am dealing with are reason's first principles, almost all of which have been ignored. ---“as a starting point, there are logical deductions one can make within “the game of God”, so to speak. But that doesn’t mean that there really is a God, and that doesn’t mean that the logical deductions lead us to knowledge about anything real.” If you begin with an unsound premise, assuming you reason properly, logical deductions will lead you into error; if you begin with a sound premise, logical deductions will lead you to the truth. The trick is to begin with a sound premise. On the other hand, deductive, inductive, and abductive reasoning principles, in concert with our experience, can teach us a great deal. Unfortunately, Hyperskeptics begin with the wrong premise, assuming either that there is no truth, or that it cannot be apprehended. Obviously truth does exist because reality exists, and there has to be something true about reality.StephenB
October 15, 2010
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Pedant 180 I thought the logic problem was rather obvious, but in any case, your question was answered. If you choose to believe that a thing that does not exist can cause something to happen, then you are welcome to that belief, and you are free to feel quite strongly about it. Perhaps things that do not exist are causing stuff to happen all the time. Who could prove otherwise?Upright BiPed
October 15, 2010
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Stephen, the whole last part of 169 is in answer to your question about the nature of logic, so I don't know why you re-asked in 175. Did you read 169? Would you like to respond to the specifics of what I had to say? But, again, you ask, "Please tell us how any kind of reasoning process can begin without a self-evident truth as its starting point.” That's not my claim. I'm not denying the validity of the laws of logic, anymore than I am denying that 2 + 2 = 4. What I am saying is that to apply them to anything you have to set up a model that correlates the abstract system to the world, and then, after doing your logical reasoning, you have to test your model back against the facts of the world. You may have all the tools of reasoning, but if you don't have some kind of testable model, you have nothing to reason about. So I'm not saying that the law of contradiction doesn't apply to the metaphysical world - I'm saying we know nothing about the metaphysical world to apply our logic to. Also, to expand upon a parenthetical remark I made earlier, it is perfectly possible to make up abstract systems and reason logically within them without there being any real world correlate: I mentioned the game of chess. We make up the rules, and then the game flows logically from there. There is no correlate in the real world to chess - it's not a model for anything, and thinking about chess gives us no new knowledge about anything other than chess. I consider all your arguments about God of this variety. For someone who accepts all the abstract definitions of God as a starting point, there are logical deductions one can make within "the game of God", so to speak. But that doesn't mean that there really is a God, and that doesn't mean that the logical deductions lead us to knowledge about anything real.Aleta
October 15, 2010
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StephenB @166:
Self creation violates every aspect of logical reasoning. Here are the conditions needed for the the universe to create itself: [a] It would have to exist before it existed.
Then it wouldn’t be self-creating.
[b] It would have to exist and not exist at the same time and in the same relationship. {violation of the law of non-contradiction]
Those seem to be ad hoc conditions that need not necessarily obtain.
[c] It would have to be a non-reality making itself into a reality, {violation of the law of causality, which is a derivative of the law of non-contradiction}
There is a philosophical question about whether the law of causality holds always and ever. (If it is an empirical generalization, it certainly need not.) In fact, that is what quantum cosmology calls into question, I think.
Without understanding and honoring these distinctions, it is impossible to reason in the abstract. It has nothing to do with “value judgments” and everything to do with the capacity to think.
And yet Stephen Hawking seems to be capable of reasoning in the abstract. Rather impressively so.Pedant
October 15, 2010
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Innerbling @167;
Pedant asks in 162: “Whether something is rational or not is a value judgment. My question is simply: what law of logic does self-creation violate?” As Stephen, UB and me have pointed out it would empirically invalidate laws of logic.
How can an empirical hypothesis invalidate laws of logic? Take the hypothesis that an evil spirit inhabits my grandmother. That may be unlikely, but is it illogical?Pedant
October 15, 2010
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William J. Murray: I don't know if other things can come into existence without a cause. I don't even know if the universe can come into existence without a cause! Do you? For clarity, I am not propagating one or the other viewpoint. I am agreeing with StephenB that certain basic concepts come before logic, reasoning or empirical confirmation. There is no way to prove or disprove such a priori assumptions, as StephenB says they cannot be reasoned to, only reasoned from. There are actually an infinite number of such possible axioms, and clearly many of those are flatly contradicting with reality. Others are potentially true but useless as tools to further our understanding. Sensible people avoid such categories and stick with the subset that works well in our daily existence. Both axioms, that nothing can begin to exist without a cause, and that nothing can begin to exist without a cause except for the Universe, work perfectly well for everything in our daily existence. Prefering one over the other is a personal thing that has no consequences for anything else we do. Given that neither can be reasoned to, nor empirically confirmed/rejected, I don't understand why one should be labelled as irrational and the other as rational. I don't understand the claim that one is right and the other is wrong, made at the same time as saying neither can be reasoned to nor empirically confirmed! It would seem more reasonable to accept both as possibilities, and refrain from having a dig at people who express a diferent preference from one's own. fGfaded_Glory
October 15, 2010
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Upright BiPed @165;
Pedant, A) Are you really asking me to justify calling it “irrational” to think that something that does not exist can cause itself to exist?
No, I thought the question was clear: what law of logic does self-creation violate? Calling the notion of self-creation irrational does not identify a law of logic, any more than saying that the notion of self-creation is illogical.
B) Are you then suggesting, after I make it clear that self-creation is irrational, that I think that my position posits a self-creating God?
No.
I thought I made myself abundantly clear:
But you didn’t answer the question: If postulating a self-creating God does not violate logic, how does postulating a self-creating universe violate logic? (Perhaps both postulations violate logic. Or not.)Pedant
October 15, 2010
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Innerbling, I take a different view from you. I don't consider immaterial things to have an independent existence outside of, and independent of, human thought. I believe that immaterial things are concepts that we formulate and use to describe, categorise, understand and function in the external world. They are products of our thinking, and have their origin in the origin of our thinking, i.e. in our own origin as humans. Therefore immaterial "things" (a misnomer, in my opinion - they are labels, or better still, processes) are not separate from "material things", and your distinction loses its meaning. I realise you will disagree with me, and that's fine. Just another example of a priori axioms that we subjectively choose and are unable to demonstrate as true or false. fGfaded_Glory
October 15, 2010
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vivid, With all respect, I think you are confusing the statement "all things that begin to exist have a beginning" with "all things that begin to exist have a cause". The former is a tautology, just two different ways of saying exactly the same in the English language. The latter is the statement that people have different views on. fGfaded_Glory
October 15, 2010
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StephenB: I'm not talking about choice; I'm talking about will. I cannot choose for jupiter to turn blue, but I can certainly intend that it do so. Choices are not free; they are contextualized and limited. For those with free will, though, will, or intent, is free, and "free" means without restriction, impediment, or cause.William J. Murray
October 14, 2010
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---Aleta: "So we really can’t apply the same logic we use in our world to what be “outside of/before” our world, because we can’t test the model." Does the law of non-contradiction apply to both "our world," and "outside" our world," as you put it?StephenB
October 14, 2010
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---Aleta, thanks for responding, but the most important question, that I ask earlier is this: "If you don’t think that the law of non-contradiction, a self evident truth, or is the starting point for deductive logic, then tell us what is. Please tell us how any IF/THEN proposition is possible absent the law of non-contradiction. Please tell us how a syllogism could be considered valid reasoning under those circumstances. Please tell us how any kind of reasoning process can begin without a self-evident truth as its starting point."StephenB
October 14, 2010
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