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Homologies, differences and information jumps

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shark-553666_1280In recent posts, I have been discussing some important points about the reasonable meaning of homologies and differences in the proteome in the course of natural history. For the following discussion, just to be clear, I will accept a scenario of Common Descent (as explained in many recent posts) in the context of an ID approach. I will also accept the very reasonable concept that neutral or quasi-neutral random variation happens in time, and that negative (purifying) selection is the main principle which limits random variation in functional sequences.

My main points are the following:

  1. Given those premises, homologies through natural history are certainly an indicator of functional constraints, because they mean that some sequence cannot be significantly transformed by random variation. Another way to express this concept is that variation in a functional sequence with strong functional constraints is not neutral, but negative, and therefore negative selection will in mot cases suppress variation and conserve the functional sequence through time. This is a very important point, because it means that strong homologies through time point to high functional complexity, and therefore to design. I have used this kind of argument, for example, for proteins like the beta chain of ATP synthase (highly conserved from LUCA to humans) and Histone H3 (highly conserved in all eukaryotes).
  2. Differences between homologues, instead, can have two completely different meanings:
  •  2a) They can be the result of accumulating neutral variation in parts of the molecule which are not functionally constrained
  • 2b) They can be the expression of differences in function in different species and contexts

I do believe that both 2a and 2b happen and have an important role in shaping the proteome. 2b, in particular, is often underestimated. It is also, in many cases, a very good argument for ID.

 

Now, I will try to apply this reasoning to one example. I have chosen a regulatory protein, one which is not really well understood, but which has certainly an important role in epigenetic regulation. The protein is called “Prickle”, and we will consider in particular the one known as “Prickle 1”. It has come to my attention trough an interesting paper linked by Dionisio (to whom go my sincere thanks and appreciation):

Planar polarization of Vangl2 in the vertebrate neural plate is controlled by Wnt and Myosin II signaling

In brief, Prickle is a molecule implied, among other things, in planar polarization events and in the regulation of neural system in vertebrates.

Let’s have a look at the protein. From Wikipedia:

Prickle is part of the non-canonical Wnt signaling pathway that establishes planar cell polarity.[2] A gain or loss of function of Prickle1 causes defects in the convergent extension movements of gastrulation.[3] In epithelial cells, Prickle2 establishes and maintains cell apical/basal polarity.[4] Prickle1 plays an important role in the development of the nervous system by regulating the movement of nerve cells.[5

And:

Mutations in Prickle genes can cause epilepsy in humans by perturbing Prickle function.[12] One mutation in Prickle1 gene can result in Prickle1-Related Progressive Myoclonus Epilepsy-Ataxia Syndrome.[2] This mutation disrupts the interaction between prickle-like 1 and REST, which results in the inability to suppress REST.[2] Gene knockdown of Prickle1 by shRNA or dominant-negative constructs results in decreased axonal and dendritic extension in neurons in the hippocampus.[5] Prickle1 gene knockdown in neonatal retina causes defects in axon terminals of photoreceptors and in inner and outer segments.[5]

The human protein is 831 AAs long.

Its structure is interesting: according to Uniprot, in the first part of the molecule we can recognize 4 domains:

1 PET domain:  AAs 14 – 122

3 LIM zinc-binding doamins:  AAs 124 – 313

In the rest of the sequence (AAs 314 – 831) no known domain is recognized.

Here is the FASTA sequence of the human protein, divided in the two parts (red: 4 domain part; blue: no domain part):

 

>sp|Q96MT3|PRIC1_HUMAN Prickle-like protein 1 OS=Homo sapiens GN=PRICKLE1 PE=1 SV=2
MPLEMEPKMSKLAFGCQRSSTSDDDSGCALEEYAWVPPGLRPEQIQLYFACLPEEKVPYV
NSPGEKHRIKQLLYQLPPHDNEVRYCQSLSEEEKKELQVFSAQRKKEALGRGTIKLLSRA
VMHAVCEQCGLKINGGEVAVFASRAGPGVCWHPSCFVCFTCNELLVDLIYFYQDGKIHCG
RHHAELLKPRCSACDEIIFADECTEAEGRHWHMKHFCCLECETVLGGQRYIMKDGRPFCC
GCFESLYAEYCETCGEHIGVDHAQMTYDGQHWHATEACFSCAQCKASLLGCPFLPKQGQI
YCSKTCSLGEDVHASDSSDSAFQSARSRDSRRSVRMGKSSRSADQCRQSLLLSPALNYKF
PGLSGNADDTLSRKLDDLSLSRQGTSFASEEFWKGRVEQETPEDPEEWADHEDYMTQLLL
KFGDKSLFQPQPNEMDIRASEHWISDNMVKSKTELKQNNQSLASKKYQSDMYWAQSQDGL
GDSAYGSHPGPASSRRLQELELDHGASGYNHDETQWYEDSLECLSDLKPEQSVRDSMDSL
ALSNITGASVDGENKPRPSLYSLQNFEEMETEDCEKMSNMGTLNSSMLHRSAESLKSLSS
ELCPEKILPEEKPVHLPVLRRSKSQSRPQQVKFSDDVIDNGNYDIEIRQPPMSERTRRRV
YNFEERGSRSHHHRRRRSRKSRSDNALNLVTERKYSPKDRLRLYTPDNYEKFIQNKSARE
IQAYIQNADLYGQYAHATSDYGLQNPGMNRFLGLYGEDDDSWCSSSSSSSDSEEEGYFLG
QPIPQPRPQRFAYYTDDLSSPPSALPTPQFGQRTTKSKKKKGHKGKNCIIS

So, this is a very interesting situation, which is not so rare. We have the first part of the sequence (313 AAs) which configures well known and conserved domains, while “the rest”(517 AAs)  is apparently not understood in terms of structure and function.

So, to better understand what all this could mean, I have blasted those two parts of the human molecule separately.

(Those who are not interested in the technical details, can choose here to go on to the conclusions  🙂 )

The first part of the sequence (AAs 1 – 313) shows no homologies in prokaryotes. So, we are apparently in the presence of domains which appear in eukaryotes.

In fungi, we find some significant, but weak, homologues. The best hit is an expect of 2e-21, with 56 identities and 93 positives (99.4 bits).

Multicellular organisms have definitely stronger homologies:

C. elegans:  144 identities, 186 positives, expect 2e-90 (282 bits)

Drosophila melanogaster:  202 identities, 244 positives, expect 5e-152 (447 bits)

Let’s go to non vertebrate chordates:

Cephalochordata (Branchiostoma floridae):  222 identities, 256 positives, expect 6e-165 (484 bits)

Tunicata (Ciona intestinalis): 196 identities, 241 positives, expect 2e-149 (442 bits)

Now, vertebrates:

Cartilaginous fishes (Callorhincus milii): 266 identities, 290 positives, expect 0.0 (588 bits)

Bony fishes (Lepisosteus oculatus): 274 identities, 292 positives, expect 0.0 (598 bits)

Mammals (Mouse): 309 identities, 312 positives, expect 0.0 (664 bits)

IOWs, what we see here is that the 4 domain part of the molecule, absent in prokaryotes, is already partially observable in single celled eukaryotes, and is strongly recognizable in all multicellular beings. It is interesting that homology with the human form is not very different between drosophila and non vertebrate chordates, while there is a significant increase in vertebrates, and practical identity already in mouse. That is a very common pattern, and IMO it can be explained as a mixed result of different functional constraints and neutral evolution in different time splits.

Now, let’s go to “the rest” of the molecule: AAs 314 – 831 (518 AAs). No recognizable domains here.

What is the behaviour of this sequence in natural history?

Again, let’s start again from the human sequence and blast it.

With Prokaryotes: no homologies

With Fungi: no homologies

C. elegans: no homologies

Drosophila melanogaster: no homologies

Let’s go to non vertebrate chordates:

Cephalochordata (Branchiostoma floridae):  no significant homologies

Tunicata (Ciona intestinalis): no significant homologies

So, there is no significant homology in the whole range of eukaryotes, excluding vertebrates and including chordates which are not vertebrates.

Now, what happens with vertebrates?

Here are the numbers:

Cartilaginous fishes (Callorhincus milii): 350 identities, 429 positives, expect 0.0 (597 bits)

Bony fishes (Lepisosteus oculatus): 396 identities, 446 positives, expect 0.0 (662 bits)

Mammals (Mouse): 466 identities, 491 positives, expect 0.0 (832 bits)

IOWs, what we see here is that the no domain part of the molecule is practically non existent in prokaryotes, in single celled eukaryotes and in all multicellular beings which are not vertebrates. In vertebrates, the sequence is not only present in practically all vertebrates, but it is also extremely conserved, from sharks to humans. So, we have a steep informational jump from non chordates and non vertebrate chordates, where the sequence is practically absent, to the very first vertebrates, where the sequence is already highly specific.

What does that mean from an ID point of view? It’s simple:

a) The sequence of 517 AAs which represents the major part of the human protein must be reasonably considered highly functional, because it is strongly conserved throughout vertebrate evolution. As we have said in the beginning, the only reasonable explanation for high conservation throughout a span of time which must be more than 400 million years long is the presence of strong functional constraints in the sequence.

b) The sequence and its function, whatever it may be (but it is probably an important regulatory function) is highly specific of vertebrates.

We have here a very good example of a part of a protein which practically appears in vertebrates while it is absent before, and which is reasonably highly functional in vertebrates.

So, to sum up:

  1. Prickle 1 is a functional protein which is found in all eukaryotes.
  2. The human sequence can be divided in two parts, with different properties.
  3. The first part, while undergoing evolutionary changes, is rather well conserved in all eukaryotes. Its function can be better understood, because it is made of known domains with known structure.
  4. The second part does not include any known domain or structure, and is practically absent in all eukaryotes except vertebrates.
  5. In vertebrates, it is highly conserved and almost certainly highly functional. Probably as a regulatory epigenetic sequence.
  6. For its properties, this second part, and its functional sequence, are a very reasonable object for a strong design inference.

 

I have added a graph to show better what is described in the conclusions, in particular the information jump in vertebrates for the second part of the sequence:

Graph3

Note: Thanks to the careful checking of Alicia Cartelli, I have corrected a couple of minor imprecisions in the data and the graph (see posts #83 and #136). Thank you, Alicia, for your commitment. The sense of the post, however, does not change.

Those who are interested in the evolutionary behaviour of protein Prickle 2 could give a look at my posts #127 and #137.

Comments
@975: the genetic pathways active along the proximodistal, anteroposterior, and dorsoventral axes of cephalopod limbs are homologous (specifically, orthologous) to the networks that regulate limb development in arthropods and vertebrates. Hh signaling could regulate the number of sucker rows along the anteroposterior axis of cephalopod limbs, similar to the manner in which Hh specifies digit number along the anteroposterior axis of vertebrate limbs our discovery that cephalopod arms and tentacles evolved by parallel recruitment of the same genetic program that orchestrates appendage formation in arthropods and vertebrates suggests that this program was present in the bilaterian common ancestor. the ancestral appendage developmental program was not a latent developmental feature that was redeployed each time that limbs evolved, but rather it might have been a continuously activated network that controlled formation of outgrowths in general. This raises the question of whether other foot-derived outgrowths/appendages (e.g., in sea slugs) evolved by co-option of the same developmental program that cephalopods, arthropods, and vertebrates use to build appendages. Although the results presented here suggest that an ancient and conserved developmental genetic program facilitated the origin of cephalopod limbs, they also indicate that fine-scale regulatory changes may have played a role in the diversification of cephalopod limb morphologies. Finally, we note that while the data presented here point to the existence of a deeply conserved genetic program for appendage development across Bilateria, this does not imply that the limbs of cephalopods, arthropods, and vertebrates are homologous structures, or that limbs were present in the common ancestor. Rather, these results show that homologous developmental mechanisms underlie the multiple parallel origins of limbs in bilaterians. Evolution of limb development in cephalopod mollusks Oscar A Tarazona,1,2 Davys H Lopez,1 Leslie A Slota,2 and Martin J Cohn1,2 eLife. 2019; 8: e43828. doi: 10.7554/eLife.43828OLV
July 5, 2019
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20 years later? Field Homology: Still a Meaningless Concept Briscoe S.D. Brain Behav Evol 2019;93:1–3 DOI:10.1159/000500770 https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/500770 Field homology: a meaningless concept. Northcutt RG Eur J Morphol. 1999 Apr;37(2-3):95-9.OLV
July 5, 2019
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It would be very interesting to see if any protein information jumps were required in these cases: Evolution of limb development in cephalopod mollusks Oscar A Tarazona,1,2 Davys H Lopez,1 Leslie A Slota,2 and Martin J Cohn1,2 eLife. 2019; 8: e43828. doi: 10.7554/eLife.43828OLV
July 5, 2019
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Homology in Development and the Development of the Homology Concept Manfred D. Laubichler Integrative and Comparative Biology, Volume 40, Issue 5, October 2000, Pages 777–788, DOI: 10.1093/icb/40.5.777 Homology: A Concept in Crisis (?) http://www.arn.org/docs/odesign/od182/hobi182.htmOLV
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Homology, neocortex, and the evolution of developmental mechanisms Steven D. Briscoe, Clifton W. Ragsdale Science 12 Oct 2018: Vol. 362, Issue 6411, pp. 190-193 DOI: 10.1126/science.aau3711 The six-layered neocortex of the mammalian pallium has no clear homolog in birds or non-avian reptiles. Recent research indicates that although these extant amniotes possess a variety of divergent and nonhomologous pallial structures, they share a conserved set of neuronal cell types and circuitries. These findings suggest a principle of brain evolution: that natural selection preferentially preserves the integrity of information-processing pathways, whereas other levels of biological organization, such as the three-dimensional architectures of neuronal assemblies, are less constrained. We review the similarities of pallial neuronal cell types in amniotes, delineate candidate gene regulatory networks for their cellular identities, and propose a model of developmental evolution for the divergence of amniote pallial structures.OLV
July 5, 2019
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You said, Origenes: The microRNA genetic sequences do not fall into the expected common descent pattern. We noted that the differences are explained by loss of miRNA over evolutionary history. You then responded @963 to Thomson et al. by waving your hands. Are you trying to say that miRNA can't be lost?Zachriel
April 6, 2016
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Zachriel, when I wrote:
Origenes: Invoking selective and total extinction of all the intermediate forms of a sequence in natural history, without offering any specifics, is not handwaving but constitutes valid criticism of Gpuccio’s argument?
I was obviously talking about your "valid criticism" of Gpuccio's argument — not about Thomson et al, which is unrelated to Gpuccio's argument. So, your reply:
Zachriel: They did offer specifics. Did you read the paper?
doesn't make any sense.Origenes
April 6, 2016
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Origenes: Invoking selective and total extinction of all the intermediate forms of a sequence in natural history, without offering any specifics, is not handwaving They did offer specifics. Did you read the paper? They statistically analyzed RNA datasets showing that RNA losses constitute between about a third of the implied evolutionary changes. While the study isn't conclusive, caution in interpreting the data is certainly warranted. You latch onto anything that supports your claim, while disregarding anything that undermines it. Eugene: What is this hierarchy but a mental concept? So is "round". Eugene: I can informally say that seeing that the sun is “round” is indeed an observation. So? It means that recognizing a pattern is a type of observation. If you look at a wolf and a mouse, do you observe they both have hair? It's clear that all observations are theory-laden. The question seems to be whether the nested hierarchy is something "real" or whether it is an artifact of classification.Zachriel
April 6, 2016
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Zachriel, The sun is not a circle. Nor is it like a circle because it is 3D. With these corrections, I can informally say that seeing that the sun is "round" is indeed an observation. So? Are you saying that it is the same as biological taxonomy? A hierarchy assumes not only an observation of a single event or object (as in the example of observing that the sun is round), it also represents relations between multiple objects, which is not the same as observing that the sun is "round". This is because in contrast to the direct observation of the sun, in the case of taxonomy, you are using theoretical abstractions. So a hierarchy in biology is a mathematical concept. One can easily do an isomorphic transform of the hierarchy without changing the actual objects or relations this hierarchy represents. What is this hierarchy but a mental concept? Can you see, hear, touch, taste or smell it? Can you measure it? When you see a beetle, you do not directly observe its place in the hierarchy, do you? What you observe is only its own properties (body plan, colour, size, etc.). You placing it in a hierarchy is a mental exercise. In a word, a hierarchy is not a (direct) observation but depends upon a theory.EugeneS
April 6, 2016
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Zachriel: Still not a valid criticism of Thomson et al.
Invoking selective and total extinction of all the intermediate forms of a sequence in natural history, without offering any specifics, is not handwaving but constitutes valid criticism of Gpuccio's argument? You are a joke. ---- BTW I did not criticize Thomson et al.Origenes
April 5, 2016
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EugeneS: This does not change the mathematical truth that a sphere is an ellipsoid We used scare-quotes @960, and it's clear you are avoiding an answer. We're talking about someone looking up in the sky and seeing the sun. Do they see that it is round? Is recognizing a pattern an observation? round, shaped like or approximately like a circle All observations are theory-laden, even something as simple as noting the existence of an object. However, most uses of the word observation include recognizing objects and patterns. Origenes, Still not a valid criticism of Thomson et al.Zachriel
April 5, 2016
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Zachriel: Handwaving. If you have an objection, you have to grapple with the specifics.
Wow it's a bit rich coming from you don't you think?Origenes
April 5, 2016
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Zachriel, "The sun's diameter only varies about ten parts per million." This does not change the mathematical truth that a sphere is an ellipsoid: x^2/a^2 + y^2/b^2 + z^2/c^2 = 1 with a = b = c. "You did not answer the question". I have stated what I think quite clearly. I showed you that you haven't got an understanding of the scientific method because you cannot distinguish an observation/data from a scientific model. You can try and answer yourself your silly question about roundness. First though define 'roundness' empirically without invoking mathematical models. Because this discussion is digressing more and more from the OP, I'd rather stop here. I can see no benefit in continuing it, Zachriel.EugeneS
April 5, 2016
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Origenes: Translation: The data used so far doesn’t fit. Handwaving. If you have an objection, you have to grapple with the specifics. Origenes: Translation: Nope! MicroRNA also doesn’t fit. So, don’t use microRNA genetic sequences when you seek support for the tree of life. Handwaving. If you have an objection, you have to grapple with the specifics.Zachriel
April 5, 2016
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Zachriel,
“Recent progress in resolving the tree of life continues to expose relationships that resist resolution, which drives the search for novel sources of information (...).” [Thomson et al.]
Translation: The data used so far doesn't fit. We need to try something else. >> Hey guys, how about microRNA?
“Our results indicate that miRNA data have far less phylogenetic utility in resolving the tree of life than is currently recognized and we urge ample caution in their interpretation.” [Thomson et al.]
Translation: Nope! MicroRNA also doesn't fit. So, don't use microRNA genetic sequences when you seek support for the tree of life. >> Ok, got it.Origenes
April 5, 2016
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EugeneS: I would say that the geometric form of the sun can be approximated by an ellipsoid (not a circle, btw). The sun's diameter only varies about ten parts per million. You didn't answer the question. Is seeing the roundness of the sun an observation? Scientist writing in notebook: • Monday, Sun is round. • Tuesday, Sun is round. • Wednesday, Sun is round. -- Edited for clarity.Zachriel
April 5, 2016
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I would say that the geometric form of the sun can be approximated by an ellipsoid (not a circle, btw). When you characterize something using abstractions you are not observing already, you are reasoning. Characterization is classification. When the hand of a meter is showing voltage, you are observing. Observation finishes as soon as you are making statements about the observation (voltage high or low), in particular making specific predictions (high voltage will lead to a fuse burning out).EugeneS
April 5, 2016
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Origenes: The microRNA genetic sequences do not fall into the expected common descent pattern. MicroRNAs form a nested hierarchy. The nested hierarchy of microRNAs is not completely different from traditional hierarchies (e.g. mammals are still nested within vertebrates), but does differ in many places. Many of these differences are due to incomplete lineage sorting and microRNAs dropping out of genomes. See Thomson et al., Estimating Phylogeny from microRNA Data: A Critical Appraisal, PNAS 2014: "Our results indicate that miRNA data have far less phylogenetic utility in resolving the tree of life than is currently recognized and we urge ample caution in their interpretation." EugeneS: The sun is a thing. If you want to be pedantic, the observation is sensation and memory. An object is a conjecture of the mind based on the persistence of the sensation. In any case, would you say the sun is "round"? That is, it forms a "circle"? Or do you think it is not an observation? And the sun's movement across the sky? Is this not an "arc"? Or is this not an observation too?Zachriel
April 5, 2016
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Zachriel, "So is an ellipse. Are you saying that when we see the sun move across the sky that this is not an observation? More facepalm. The sun is a thing. An ellipse is a mental (mathematical) generalization, i.e. a concept. A primary school student could tell you what is wrong in what you post here. A thing objectively exists and does not care what we call it, an ellipsoid or a cube nor how we relate it to other things. Classification is a mental activity. Read a book. This time a relevant one though ;)EugeneS
April 5, 2016
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Zachriel: What you mean is that the nested hierarchy is not observed in every instance. However, the overall pattern remains.
No, that's not what I mean.
The microRNA genetic sequences do not fall into the expected common descent pattern. That is, when compared across different species, microRNAs do not align with the evolutionary tree. As one scientist explained, “I've looked at thousands of microRNA genes and I can't find a single example that would support the traditional [evolutionary] tree.” (Dolgin) While there remain questions about these new phylogenetic data, “What we know at this stage,” explained another evolutionist, “is that we do have a very serious incongruence.” In other words, different types of data report very different evolutionary trees. The conflict is much greater than normal statistical variations. “There have to be,” added another evolutionist, “other explanations.” One explanation is that microRNAs evolve in some unexpected way. Another is that the traditional evolutionary tree is all wrong. Or evolutionists may consider other explanations. But in any case, microRNAs are yet another example of evidence that does not fit evolutionary expectations. Once again, the theory will need to be modified in complex ways to fit the new findings. more ...
Origenes
April 5, 2016
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bill cole: Based on observation it is a way to organize the observations contingent on a mechanism that would validate the hypothesis? The nested hierarchy exists regardless of any explanatory framework. There are specific correlations. For instance, having hair and mammary glands correlates with bellows lungs. EugeneS: A hierarchy is a mental concept So is an ellipse. Are you saying that when we see the sun move across the sky that this is not an observation? Origenes: The nested hierarchy is an observation [hypothesis] that leads to specific and verifiable empirical predictions. What you mean is that the nested hierarchy is not observed in every instance. However, the overall pattern remains.Zachriel
April 4, 2016
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Zachriel: The nested hierarchy is an observation [hypothesis] that leads to specific and verifiable empirical predictions.
Indeed, here are those predictions — each of them has failed: Genomic features are not sporadically distributed. Gene and host phylogenies are congruent. Gene phylogenies are congruent. The species should form an evolutionary tree.Origenes
April 4, 2016
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Zachriel, Facepalm. Your indoctrination stops you from distinguishing clearly between what is given in observation, what is assumed, and what is deduced. A hierarchy is a mental concept, Zachriel. Natural phenomena don't care if they fit into a hierarchy or not. We cannot observe a hierarchy. Again you confuse the map with the territory. Typical of evolutionists' wishful thinking ;) You conflate artificial selection with natural selection. In situ evolution can only cause oscillations around already existing functional attractors. Complex functional novelty (attractors) can only be achieved by design. It is so in practice and it is so in theory (never mind the scientifically sterile ToE). Your examples with Galileo only obfuscate the truth. If you demonstrated (not hypothesised or posited) an evolutionary path to at least a single novel protein, that would have been a different matter. As of today, you have no case. The key point in getting a functional system of any sort is intelligent design. Simply because inanimate nature does not care about function. Function is already a pointer to design because the key thing in being functional is "in order to" i.e. teleology, foresight, which is non-existent in inanimate nature. Function's subsequent evolvability is irrelevant.EugeneS
April 4, 2016
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Z
No. The nested hierarchy is an observation. Common descent is the hypothesis. While the latter may or may not be true, the former is an observation of the distribution of traits.
Would you say it is an observation? Based on observation it is a way to organize the observations contingent on a mechanism that would validate the hypothesis?bill cole
April 4, 2016
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EugeneS: They artificially steer events in the test tube towards a goal and then declare it a result of natural events. And Galileo artificially dropped stones from the Tower of Pisa. Some experiments are in nature, some in the lab. Each experiment reveals some aspect or other of evolution. In particular, some lab experiments select for function, but don't design the particular structures. The pathways have to be selectable. Some lab experiments simply allow organisms to evolve on their own, though the environment is obviously artificial. That's what we mean by "in the lab". Still other experiments simply observe nature. EugeneS: A hierarchy is not an observation, it is a result of human classification (i.e., fundamentally, a theory). No more than observing a planet trace an elliptical orbit is a result of human classification. Rather, the nested hierarchy refers to specific and predictable correlations between traits. EugeneS: we then formulate a theory to propose an interpretation of scientific observations (an example of such an interpretation is a nested hierarchy) No. The nested hierarchy is an observation. Common descent is the hypothesis. While the latter may or may not be true, the former is an observation of the distribution of traits. EugeneS: The theory of evolution as it stands completely fails to account for huge sudden increases of complex functional information in living systems. Sudden, as in millions of years; spans of time so vast that they defy simple human comprehension. EugeneS: Are you saying ToE is not falsifiable because a direct observation would take millions of years? No. Simply that your proposed observation is precluded by the Theory of Evolution. In other words, a strawman. There are many other observations that would falsify evolution that doesn't require millions of years of observations.Zachriel
April 4, 2016
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Wait a minute, Zachriel. "The Theory of Evolution posits that complex macroevolution takes place over millions of years, so a direct observation would be a falsification of the Theory of Evolution." Did you read what you had typed? Are you saying ToE is not falsifiable because a direct observation would take millions of years?EugeneS
April 4, 2016
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"That’s not what evolution experiments do." It is exactly what some of them do, Zachriel. They artificially steer events in the test tube towards a goal and then declare it a result of natural events. That is complete fraud. Fortunately, not every researcher is like that. "The nested hierarchy is an observation." No, completely wrong. A hierarchy is not an observation, it is a result of human classification (i.e., fundamentally, a theory). What you observe is natural phenomena. Given specific useful metrics, we can reason about natural phenomena by formulating theories. E.g. we can observe protein molecules in different organisms, measure and compare them. Consider protein structure homology. Based on observations and on assumptions (such as common descent), we then formulate a theory to propose an interpretation of scientific observations (an example of such an interpretation is a nested hierarchy) and predict future observations (such as future discovered species will be within an existing hierarchy). "We were referring to human design." The theory of evolution as it stands completely fails to account for huge sudden increases of complex functional information in living systems. The only reliably empirically known source of complex functional information is design, as I am sure you know. Why only human? What about animals who surely can design nests, develop hunting or escape tactics, can communicate with one another and consequently use code, train their young, etc.?!EugeneS
April 4, 2016
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EugeneS: Phylogeny is not evidence, it is an interpretation. The nested hierarchy is an observation that leads to specific and verifiable empirical predictions. EugeneS: There are no direct observations of macroevolution. The Theory of Evolution posits that complex macroevolution takes place over millions of years, so a direct observation would be a falsification of the Theory of Evolution. On the other hand, we have ample evidence of intermediates for many complex structures, supporting the Theory of Evolution. EugeneS: If you allude to co-optation, it is irrelevant. No. We were referring to human design. "Hold this here until I can nail it together."Zachriel
April 4, 2016
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"In design, we often hold pieces into place where they have no function, until we can affix all the necessary parts. That’s not what evolution experiments do." If you allude to co-optation, it is irrelevant. The switching between functions is a function in itself, which must be assumed for co-optation to be feasible. Intelligence must already be present in the system for co-optation to occur. That kills the argument completely. I never liked Ken Miller's argumentation.EugeneS
April 4, 2016
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Zachriel: I like you when you are explicitly repetitive! :) Alicia: As Mung says: Good to have you back.gpuccio
April 4, 2016
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