Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

He said it: Prof Lewontin’s strawman “justification” for imposing a priori materialist censorship on origins science

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Yesterday, in the P Z Myers quote-mining and distortion thread, I happened to cite Lewontin’s infamous 1997 remark in his NYRB article, “Billions and Billions of Demons,” on a priori imposition of materialist censorship on origins science, which reads in the crucial part:

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

To my astonishment, I was promptly accused of quote-mining and even academic malpractice, because I omitted the following two sentences, which — strange as it may seem —  some evidently view as justifying the above censoring imposition:

The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.

To my mind, instead, these last two sentences are such a sad reflection of bias and ignorance, that their omission is an act of charity to a distinguished professor.

Similar, in fact, to how I also did not refer to the case prof Lewontin also cited, of what we were invited to believe was a “typical fundamentalist”  woman who disbelieved the TV broadcasts of the Moon landing in 1969 on grounds that she could not receive broadcasts from Dallas. By telling contrast, Lewontin somehow omitted to mention that the designer of the Moon rocket, Werner von Braun, was a Bible-believing, Evangelical Christian and Creationist who kept a well-thumbed Gideon Bible in his office.

The second saddest thing in this, is that ever so many now seem to be unaware that:

1: Historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. Newton’s remarks in his General Scholium to his famous work, Principia (which introduces his Laws of Motion and Gravitation), are a classic illustration of this historical fact.

[Let me add an excerpt from the GS: “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]”]

2: As C S Lewis and many other popular as well as technical theological and historical writers point out (cf. here, here and here), in theism, miracles are signs pointing from the ordinary course of the world to the special intervention of God. As such, a world in which miracles happen MUST be a world in which there is an ordinary, predictable day to day course of events — one that is amenable to science, rather than the rationality-sapping chaos Beck and Lewontin imagine.

3: Similarly, one of the major, well-known emphases of theism is our accountability before God as morally governed agents and stewards of our world. Such accountability is only reasonable in a cosmos where choices and actions have reliably predictable consequences. Such a world, again, is one in which science is possible.

4: In light of such facts, it is unsurprising that the leading scientists of the foundational era of modern science  often saw themselves as thinking God’s creative and sustaining thoughts after him.

5: Going beyond that, as Nancy Pearcey rightly pointed out in her 2005 article, “Christianity is a Science-starter, not a Science-stopper”:

Most historians today agree that the main impact Christianity had on the origin and development of modern science was positive.  Far from being a science stopper, it is a science starter . . . .

[T]his should come as no surprise.  After all, modern science arose in one place and one time only: It arose out of medieval Europe, during a period when its intellectual life was thoroughly permeated with a Christian worldview.  Other great cultures, such as the Chinese and the Indian, often developed a higher level of technology and engineering.  But their expertise tended to consist of practical know-how and rules of thumb.  They did not develop what we know as experimental science–testable theories organized into coherent systems.  Science in this sense has appeared only once in history.  As historian Edward Grant writes, “It is indisputable that modern science emerged in the seventeenth century in Western Europe and nowhere else.”[7]. . . .

The church fathers taught that the material world came from the hand of a good Creator, and was thus essentially good.  The result is described by a British philosopher of science, Mary Hesse: “There has never been room in the Hebrew or Christian tradition for the idea that the material world is something to be escaped from, and that work in it is degrading.”  Instead, “Material things are to be used to the glory of God and for the good of man.”[19] Kepler is, once again, a good example.  When he discovered the third law of planetary motion (the orbital period squared is proportional to semi-major axis cubed, or P[superscript 2] = a [superscript 3]), this was for him “an astounding confirmation of a geometer god worthy of worship.  He confessed to being ‘carried away by unutterable rapture at the divine spectacle of heavenly harmony’.”[20] In the biblical worldview, scientific investigation of nature became both a calling and an obligation.  As historian John Hedley Brooke explains, the early scientists “would often argue that God had revealed himself in two books—the book of His words (the Bible) and the book of His works (nature).  As one was under obligation to study the former, so too there was an obligation to study the latter.”[21] The rise of modern science cannot be explained apart from the Christian view of nature as good and worthy of study, which led the early scientists to regard their work as obedience to the cultural mandate to “till the garden”. . . .

Today the majority of historians of science agree with this positive assessment of the impact the Christian worldview had on the rise of science.  Yet even highly educated people remain ignorant of this fact.  Why is that? The answer is that history was founded as a modern discipline by Enlightenment figures such as Voltaire, Gibbon, and Hume who had a very specific agenda: They wanted to discredit Christianity while promoting rationalism.  And they did it by painting the middle ages as the “Dark Ages,” a time of ignorance and superstition.  They crafted a heroic saga in which modern science had to battle fierce opposition and oppression from Church authorities.  Among professional historians, these early accounts are no longer considered reliable sources.  Yet they set the tone for the way history books have been written ever since.  The history of science is often cast as a secular morality tale of enlightenment and progress against the dark forces of religion and superstition. Stark puts it in particularly strong terms: “The ‘Enlightenment’ [was] conceived initially as a propaganda ploy by militant atheists and humanists who attempted to claim credit for the rise of science.”[22] Stark’s comments express a tone of moral outrage that such bad history continues to be perpetuated, even in academic circles.  He himself published an early paper quoting the standards texts, depicting the relationship between Christianity and science as one of constant “warfare.”  He now seems chagrined to learn that, even back then, those stereotypes had already been discarded by professional historians.[23]

Today the warfare image has become a useful tool for politicians and media elites eager to press forward with a secularist agenda . . . [The whole article is well worth the read, here.]

Perhaps, the saddest thing is, even with such correction on the record, many will be so taken in by the myth of the ages-long war of religion attacking science, and by the caricature of the religious as “ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked,” that they will still fail to see that the last two sentences cited from Lewontin above, provide not a justification for materialist censorship on the very definition and methods of science, but instead a further proof of just how ill-instructed, polarising and pernicious such a priori imposition of materialism is.

At the expense of simplicity (and while reserving the right to excerpt from the wider commented quote and using a link back to show the context), I have therefore decided to adjust the commented quotation as follows, to provide a correction on the record:

_____________

>> a key danger of putting materialistic philosophical blinkers on science is that it can easily lead on to the practical establishment of materialistic ideology under false colours of “truth” or the closest practical approximation we can get to it. Where that happens, those who object may then easily find themselves tagged and dismissed as pseudo-scientific (or even fraudulent) opponents of progress, knowledge, right and truth; which can then lead on to very unfair or even unjust treatment at the hands of those who wield power. Therefore, if religious censorship of science (as in part happened to Galileo etc.) was dangerous and unacceptable, materialist censorship must also be equally wrong.

Nor is this danger merely imaginary or a turn-about false accusation, as some would suggest.
For, we may read from Harvard Professor Richard Lewontin’s 1997 New York Review of Books review of the late Cornell Professor Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World, as follows:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen. [Perhaps the second saddest thing is that some actually believe that these last three sentences that express hostility to God and then back it up with a loaded strawman caricature of theism and theists JUSTIFY what has gone on before. As a first correction, accurate history — as opposed to the commonly promoted rationalist myth of the longstanding war of religion against science — documents (cf. here, here and here) that the Judaeo-Christian worldview nurtured and gave crucial impetus to the rise of modern science through its view that God as creator made and sustains an orderly world. Similarly, for miracles — e.g. the resurrection of Jesus — to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary course of the world, there must first be such an ordinary course, one plainly amenable to scientific study. The saddest thing is that many are now so blinded and hostile that, having been corrected, they will STILL think that this justifies the above. But, nothingcan excuse the imposition of a priori materialist censorship on science, which distorts its ability to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world.][[From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis added. (NB: The key part of this quote comes after some fairly unfortunate remarks where Mr Lewontin gives the “typical” example — yes, we can spot a subtext — of an ill-informed woman who dismissed the Moon landings on the grounds that she could not pick up Dallas on her TV, much less the Moon. This is little more than a subtle appeal to the ill-tempered sneer at those who dissent from the evolutionary materialist “consensus,” that they are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. For telling counter-instance, Werner von Braun, the designer of the rocket that took NASA to the Moon, was an evangelical Christian and a Creationist.  Similarly, when Lewontin cites eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck as declaring that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything, drawing as bottom-line, the inference that [[t]o appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen,” this is a sadly sophomoric distortion. One that fails to understand that, on the Judaeo-Christian theistic view, for miracles to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary, there must first be an ordinary consistently orderly world, one created by the God of order who “sustains all things by his powerful word.” Also, for us to be morally accountable to God — a major theme in theism, the consequences of our actions must be reasonably predictable, i.e. we must live in a consistent, predictably orderly cosmos, one that would be amenable to science. And, historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. For instance that is why Newton (a biblical theist), in the General Scholium to his famous work Principia, confidently said “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]” In such a context of order stamped in at creation and sustained through God’s power, for good reason, God may then act into the world in ways that go beyond the ordinary, i.e. miracles are possible but will inevitably be rare and in a context that points to such a higher purpose. For instance, the chief miracle claim of Christian thought, the resurrection of Jesus with 500+ witnesses is presented in the NT as decisive evidence for the truth of the gospel and authentication of God’s plan of redemption. So, since these contextual remarks have been repeatedly cited by objectors as though they prove the above cite is an out of context distortion that improperly makes Lewontin seem irrational in his claims,  they have to be mentioned, and addressed, as some seem to believe that such a disreputable “context” justifies the assertions and attitudes above!)]

Mr Lewontin and a great many other leading scientists and other influential people in our time clearly think that such evolutionary materialist scientism is the closest thing to the “obvious” truth about our world we have or can get. This has now reached to the point where some want to use adherence to this view as a criterion of being “scientific,” which to such minds is equivalent to “rational.”>>

______________

Well did Aristotle warn us in his The Rhetoric, Bk I Ch 2:

. . . persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . .

So revealing, then, is the Lewontin quote that it is no surprise that several months later, design thinker Philip Johnson, went on corrective record as follows:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Let us hope the above will sufficiently set the record straight that we can now clear the atmosphere of the miasma of poisonous caricatures of theism and theists, and address the substantial matter, the recovery of an objective understanding of what science is and how it should work. For, nothing can justify such a priori censorship as Lewontin advocates — and many others also (including very important official bodies), e.g. the US National Academy of Science and the US National Science Teacher’s Association.

In that interest, I suggest that we would profit from reflecting on this proposed restoration of the more historically warranted, and epistemologically justifiable understanding of what science should seek to be:

science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, observational evidence-led pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on:

a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements,

b: inference to best current — thus, always provisionalabductive explanation of the observed facts,

c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using  logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein’s favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments],

d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and,

e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.)

As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.

Let us trust, then, that cooler and wiser heads will now prevail and in the years ahead, science can and will be rescued from ideological censorship and captivity to Lewontinian-Saganian a priori evolutionary materialism presented in the name of science, through so-called methodological naturalism.

_______________

CONCLUSION (after a day of intense exchanges):

It seems to me that CD captured the essential problem in the false accusation of quote-mining, as early as comment no 3:

Evolutionists in general absolutely hate it when we use the words of authority figures like Crick and Lewontin against them. So when they say “Stop quote mining” what they actually mean is “Stop quoting!”

Bot is very much mistaken when [in comment no 1, cf below] he claims that Kairosfocus was “concealing the proper context of the quote”. The substantial point – that Lewontin demands an a priori, completely exclusive commitment to materialism – is not altered in any way by the lines that were omitted. What the likes of Bot also need to realise about quoting is that, when quoting, you have to start and end somewhere.

Quoting is an exercise in capturing the essence of the substantial point being made: not reproducing the complete work.

After over 100 further comments, much of it on tangential themes, it is quite evident that this summary still stands. END

_______

F/N: Smoking gun, courtesy Expelled. (HT: News.)

Comments
[ID] is rejected, not on evidence, but ultimately on the superficial basis that the conclusion is supernatural and therefore unscientific.
ID is not rejected on the basis that the conclusion is supernatural. I thought ID made no conclusions as to who the designer is?Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:58 PM
3
03
58
PM
PDT
Well, Scott, in that case I agree with you. I think intelligent design is perfectly amenable to scientific investigation. In fact it's done daily, by crime investigation boards, and by psychologists, neuroscientists, biologists, archaeologists, and many more. Nice note on which to say goodnight :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:58 PM
3
03
58
PM
PDT
OK, nullasalus, we might agree on this. Science does not have the methodology to investigate the Divine, right? So what methodology would you suggest for such a task?Elizabeth Liddle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:53 PM
3
03
53
PM
PDT
I agree that divinity isn't an issue for science. 'Divine' is an adjective. It can't be objectively measured. The line of research many scientists run screaming from is intelligent design. It is rejected, not on evidence, but ultimately on the superficial basis that the conclusion is supernatural and therefore unscientific. As long as the search for a non-intelligent cause goes on, anything else is foolishness. But, as we have agreed, that line is meaningless. The question is raised, then, why does academia keep drawing it and painting it bright red? Why is it perceived as a foot that must not be allowed in the door? Bias is human, but every effort should be made to eliminate or mitigate it, not institutionalize it. It renders science useless and condemns us to search under the proverbial streetlight.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:53 PM
3
03
53
PM
PDT
Mung, Where appropriate, science weaves effects and causes into an explanatory framework.Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:51 PM
3
03
51
PM
PDT
All I’m saying (and at bottom, I think it’s what Lewontin is saying) is that science does not have the methodology to rule Divinity in. It only has the methodology to rule Divinity out (of a particular bit of the causal chain). What a load. Science does not have the methodology to do either, for reasons others have mentioned (the difficulty in defining 'supernatural', and even 'natural'), the fact that the natural is not in competition with the divine under plenty of orthodox views of God, etc. Science as a tool has nothing to say about the divine either way, because science is a very limited, anemic thing. Hucksters who try to pretend that science can detect when the divine (whether God, angels, or otherwise) is not present or had no role, but they can never even infer the divine (because how would they ever know what the hallmark of the divine is?) are exactly that: Hucksters. Ones who harm science, at that. Because once you hit Divinity, there’s no more investigating to be done. According to what dogma? Again, this is nonsense. Science is a methodology grounded in certain assumptions, and is harshly limited by the assumptions and methodology both. Unfortunately, those limitations make it powerless in the face of various claims about divine, design, etc. Unless, of course, we jig with the definition of design. On that note, keep in mind that all this talk about how science must forever keep prodding and pressing and never allow itself to hit a wall is manifest nonsense nowadays. Plenty of scientists are willing to entertain the idea that some things exist or occur without cause, ranging from universes to quantum minutae to elsewise. In other words, "stop looking for causes behind causes" - even if we ignore Mung's point about science's relation to effects rather than causes - just doesn't pan out. Or at least, it seems one can say "stop looking for causes behind causes" so long as you stop short of anything too intimidating.nullasalus
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:48 PM
3
03
48
PM
PDT
Scott, "supernatural" has a clear explicit meaning, which is "beyond natural law". However, I agree that there is no clear scientifically useful definition of anything that is supernatural. Science simply cannot be done with sloppy and arbitrary definitions.Driver
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:40 PM
3
03
40
PM
PDT
ScottAndrews:
How do you know if a cause is causeless? What is the difference between ’causeless’ and ‘of unknown cause?’ That’s why this seems so arbitrary to me. In once case we stick our head in up to the next in research because we don’t know the cause, but we run screaming from another line of inquiry because we don’t know the cause. It’s the end of the line for investigation. That’s an unsupported assertion. Design leaves much to be investigated. I don’t see the sense in defining reality by what we can and can’t investigate. Science examines reality. It doesn’t define it.
We have a small communication problem! Yes, of course we must investigate design. I'm not quite sure which line of research you think anyone runs screaming from. All I'm saying (and at bottom, I think it's what Lewontin is saying) is that science does not have the methodology to rule Divinity in. It only has the methodology to rule Divinity out (of a particular bit of the causal chain). Because once you hit Divinity, there's no more investigating to be done. But the only way you know you haven't hit Divinity is to see whether investigating yields non-Divinity. Let me try a Fable: "A sea nymph was looking for her lost love. A fairy told her: go into the cave on the seashore, and call his name. If the echo returns his name, he is drowned. If you hear no echo, you must call louder." That's essentially the position science is in with regard to God. :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:37 PM
3
03
37
PM
PDT
On the other hand, those who argue that science science to “rule in” supernatural causation, are, in effect, saying: stop looking for causes-behind-causes, because clearly you’ve hit the buffers and the next one is God.
I don't argue that science should rule in supernatural causation. I'm saying that there's no meaningful definition of any such thing as supernatural causation by which a thing could be ruled out. Every definition provided is arbitrary and meaningless. 'Supernatural' means nothing more than 'Unknown, and really hard to find out, so we'll keep looking under the street light.' Science is devalued when such sloppy, arbitrary, and ultimately ideological limitations are placed upon it.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:34 PM
3
03
34
PM
PDT
Elizabeth Liddle:
...a supernatural cause is a causeless cause.
And you know this how?
...a supernatural cause is a causeless cause.
Even if it were true, so what? Science studies effects, not causes. Causes causing causes is not the way it works. Causes cause effects. Now if you were claiming the existence of effects with no cause, that would be one thing. But that does not appear to be what you are saying at all.Mung
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:20 PM
3
03
20
PM
PDT
Scott - I did in fact give an example of "a potentially viable model pertaining to the origin of life" - one that is currently being developed, and already generating testable hypotheses. But to address last point :
Again, it seems like an arbitrary line that rules out the possibility one does not prefer, leaving only the other.
I'm not suggesting that scientists draw any such line -actually the reverse. Science does not, pace Lewontine, "rule out" supernatural causation; it simply does not have any criteria by which to stop looking for another cause-behind-the-cause. On the other hand, those who argue that science science to "rule in" supernatural causation, are, in effect, saying: stop looking for causes-behind-causes, because clearly you've hit the buffers and the next one is God. In other words, the idea that science is ideologically opposed to supernatural causation is (IMO) flawed. Yes, science does not consider supernatural causation, but not because scientists are opposed to the Divine Foot on principle, but because their domain is the investigation of causal chains. Divinity is the end of a causal chain. But as the essence of divinity is a causeless cause, there is no way to distinguish, scientifically, between a cause you don't know and a cause that doesn't have one. The only remaining strategy, therefore, for science, is to keep hauling on the chain to see if you can expose yet another link. Not because you refuse to countenance the possibility that there isn't one, but because the only way of finding out whether there is another one is to keep pulling. Anyway, I appreciate the conversation :)Elizabeth Liddle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
How do you know if a cause is causeless? What is the difference between 'causeless' and 'of unknown cause?' That's why this seems so arbitrary to me. In once case we stick our head in up to the next in research because we don't know the cause, but we run screaming from another line of inquiry because we don't know the cause.
It’s the end of the line for investigation.
That's an unsupported assertion. Design leaves much to be investigated. I don't see the sense in defining reality by what we can and can't investigate. Science examines reality. It doesn't define it.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:13 PM
3
03
13
PM
PDT
Basically, anything postulated as existing beyond the ability to sense or existing outside the confines of this universe, yet still capable of interacting with this universe by some non-natural means is deemed supernatural.
Basically, once the interaction with the natural world takes place, it's natural, by definition. So it can be studied by science.Mung
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:13 PM
3
03
13
PM
PDT
Elizabeth Liddle:
What we should do, IMO, if we suspect “art”, is to investigate the nature of the “artist”.
And if the "artist" is dead?
That’s exactly (if not in those terms) what evolutionary biologists do.
No it isn't. Evolutionary biologists have no operational definition of "art" nor the ability to say who or what the "artist" is. So they can hardly investigate the nature of the artist. They deny that art exists, or they call it by some other name (accidental paint spatters that only have the appearance of art, for example), and then reason that there is no artist, and thus decline to investigate the nature of the artist.Mung
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:07 PM
3
03
07
PM
PDT
Dr Liddle: Actually, a contingent cosmos implies a necessary, and thus causally independent, beginning-less being somewhere at the root of the causal chain. That is not unique to a theistic view. That is the logical entailment of a credibly contingent observed cosmos. (The debate is on what is the best candidate, not whether there must be a necessary being.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:05 PM
3
03
05
PM
PDT
Did not intend to, but I could have been clearer: a supernatural cause is a causeless cause. It's the end of the line for investigation.Elizabeth Liddle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
03:02 PM
3
03
02
PM
PDT
Elizabeth Liddle:
A “super-natural” cause, by definition, is a-causal.
Sanity check. Need to make sure my eyes are not deceiving me. Did you just say that a cause is by definition not a cause?Mung
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
02:59 PM
2
02
59
PM
PDT
Dr Liddle: If intelligent acts leave characteristic, reliable, traces, such as FSCO/I is a candidate to be, then one is entitled to look at the warrant for the claim that FSCO/I is a reliable sign of intelligent action. If that is reasonably confirmed then one has an epistemic right to infer thereon from FSCO/I to intelligent action. Even where there is no obvious designer, or no obvious embodied designer to do the act. Notice, the inference is entirely in the empirical world, and would confer the sort of provisional warrant by inference to best current explanation that is ever so common in science and related endeavours. Now that it were done is one thing, who dunit is a different thing. That would have to be established based on circumstances and credible candidates that can be addressed on essentially forensic lines. When it comes the FSCO in the fine tuned observed cosmos, that points to intelligent cause of sufficient power, knowledge, purpose and ability to make a cosmos. The scientific inference is to the act of design on credibly reliable sign. The onward conclusion that there is a designer beyond our world who has some familiar sounding characteristics, is a step beyond, much as detectives use scientific findings but go beyond to make an overall case. At any rate it is quite plain that the insinuation that since there is a possibility that finding signs of design in the origin of the cosmos might open up a forensic study that goes beyond the reaches of science and may actually support a theistic conclusion should be used to censor science from looking for the credible truth based on empirical evidence, is obviously indefensible. And unfortunately, Lewontin's testimony is that this is common among the elite scientists who man the key institutions. This is backed up by the sort of line that the US NAS and the US NSTA have been pushing. (Not the onward link to these clips, that no-one has challenged.) I think I can hold it on fair comment over the past 24 hours of back and forth, that Lewontin did advocate a priori materialism as a censoring constraint on science, and that in trying to defend it, he has seriously disrespected sand caricatured theistic thinkers while seeming to be ignorant of the historical theistic roots of modern science. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to have been indoctrinated in this agenda and are as yet unable or unwilling to acknowledge that something has seriously gone wrong. It is also quite clear that the accusation against me that by omitting the sentences in which strawman based slanders of theists are advanced, I have quote-mined Lewontin, is plainly false. I did not enjoy the adverse impact the further discussion must eventually have on Mr Lewontin's reputation, but I was forced to defend myself on the merits. I hope that those who put forth such unwarranted accusations will withdraw them and apologise for them. However, on track record, I expect that some will propagate the false accusations far and wide as though they were substantiated. That is sad to have to expect, but I fear this is only being realistic in the face of people who have not hesitated to falsely and recklessly accuse me and the circle of people at UD -- most of whom I have never met in the flesh -- of being a nest of perverts. GEM of TKI PS: As I have repeatedly pointed out, the design inference on FSCO/I in life does not point to a designer being within or beyond the cosmos, as Thaxton et al said 25 years ago in the very first technical level design book. As I have repeatedly said in recent weeks, Venter has given proof of concept that a sufficient cause for life on earth would be a molecular nanotech lab a few generations beyond where Venter et al now are. I find it astonishing that, having said that over and over and over and over, it is simply not noticed. Where there is a design inference that does point beyond the cosmos is that on cosmological origin, but such an origin is implied by simply the well established conclusion that we live in an observed cosmos that credibly had a beginning and is contingent. That points to a necessary being as the ultimate root of such a world, one that on the fine tuning evidence would be intelligent and purposeful as well as enormously knowledgeable and powerful. A theistic cosmology as a worldview is not at all unreasonable as an inference to best explanation -- as opposed to claimed indisputable proof on deduction from premises accepted or obvious to all rational observers. And yes such a designer of the cosmos would be a very good candidate for the designer of observed life, but that is a bringing together of two separate lines of reasoning, not an imposed a priori.kairosfocus
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
02:44 PM
2
02
44
PM
PDT
Elizabeth, What you're saying does make reasonable sense, and yet the question remains unanswered. By your own words the scientific method fits models to data, but you also state (indirectly) that we don't yet have even a potentially viable model pertaining to the origin of life. We certainly don't have such a model pertaining to the deliberate design and creation of life, either. And yet one unknown is natural while the other is called supernatural. Again, it seems like an arbitrary line that rules out the possibility one does not prefer, leaving only the other.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
02:32 PM
2
02
32
PM
PDT
ScottAndrews: Interesting response
So if a line of inquiry leads us to something we don’t understand, then it was unscientific in the first place?
Well, no. All lines of inquiry lead us to something we don't understand. That in turn becomes the subject for our next enquiry! Or let me put that more accurately in terms of the scientific method: Scientific methodology involves fitting models to data. No model ever fits the data exactly, but we retain models that fit better and reject models that fit worse. So science is an unending iterative approach to model refinement. More specifically, when we have fitted a model to existing data, we extract from our model predictions about new data, then we go looking for that new data. If it comports to our prediction we retain our model, if it doesn't, we reject, or refine it. Rinse and repeat. But there is always something we don't know - no scientific model ever fits the data perfectly. Sometimes that is because of simple measurement error, but more generally, it is because scientific models, are, well, models - they are not the real thing and always oversimplified compared to the real thing. There are always factors that we haven't modelled, some of these being stochastic factors that can at best only be modelled statistically. And so....
How do you distinguish between what we can understand and what we can’t?
By looking at the data our models do not fit, and seeking to find a model that fits more closely, and using that model to make predictions about new data.
The origin of life is entirely unknown, with no guarantee of ever finding an answer, and yet people are plugging away. It seems that line is arbitrary, a matter of personal preference.
Well, some historical events are "inert" in the sense that the traces they leave are irredeemably eradicated by time, and indeed Entropy. So questions like: what did my grandmother have for breakfast on the 15th March, 1908? is probably unknowable. All traces of evidence that could possibly lead us to the answer are almost certainly gone. The Information is destroyed :) But obviously I can't conclude that therefore that breakfast was a supernatural event. And what I can do, if I'm really interested, is to answer a more general question about breakfasts Edwardian Scottish farmhouses, or even, for more remote questions, the diet of Egyptian farmers in 2000 BC. And so, while we can probably never know exactly how life got started on Earth, we can certainly make predictive models that fit what we know about the nature of living things, and allow us to search for new data that would tend to support, or infirm our models. And if, for example, scientists managed, for example, to find physical and chemical conditions that tended to result in the spontaneous formation and reformation of lipid vesicles (to go with one current hypothesis), and where the probability of reformation was contingent on the specifica sequences of a captured self-replicating polymer, then we'd have a potentially viable model, that would make specific predictions about what to look for when investigating the geology of the early earth. And those investigations might demonstrate beyond doubt that conditions were quite different from those hypothesised, and it would be back to the drawing board. And it might be the end of grant funding. But it wouldn't be a justification for saying: "therefore life must have a supernatural origin" any more than it would be to draw the same conclusion about my grandmother's breakfast. Is what I'm saying :) Does that make sense?Elizabeth Liddle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
02:01 PM
2
02
01
PM
PDT
Basically, anything postulated as existing beyond the ability to sense or existing outside the confines of this universe, yet still capable of interacting with this universe by some non-natural means is deemed supernatural.
In a nutshell, if it's non-natural then it's supernatural. I was hoping for something a little less circular.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
01:33 PM
1
01
33
PM
PDT
Z caused Y and Y caused X and … B caused A, but we don’t know what caused A, so here we must stop,
So if a line of inquiry leads us to something we don't understand, then it was unscientific in the first place? How do you distinguish between what we can understand and what we can't? The origin of life is entirely unknown, with no guarantee of ever finding an answer, and yet people are plugging away. It seems that line is arbitrary, a matter of personal preference.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
01:30 PM
1
01
30
PM
PDT
I just love quote-mining, especially the ones that drive Darwinians crazy!!!Enezio E. De Almeida Filho
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
01:30 PM
1
01
30
PM
PDT
ScottAndrews,
How do you define ‘supernatural?’ Is the unknown supernatural? If we see an effect and search the cause, which is yet unknown, is it supernatural, and then does it become natural once we understand it? Were eclipses supernatural until we understood their causes? It seems that ‘supernatural’ is a fuzzy, arbitrary line between what we understand and what we don’t. Given how much we don’t understand, that seems like a foolish, limited way to perceive reality.
Not really: From Merriam-Webster:
1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
Basically, anything postulated as existing beyond the ability to sense or existing outside the confines of this universe, yet still capable of interacting with this universe by some non-natural means is deemed supernatural.Doveton
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
01:30 PM
1
01
30
PM
PDT
KF: Yes indeed, scientist routinely study what you call "art". My own domain is the study of intentional behaviour. I'm more than happy, and so would all scientists be, to study the mechanisms by which "art" is produced. But presenting "art" as the null hypothesis is not a sensible, or informative, use of the scientific method. We cannot infer "art" from lack of evidence for "non-art". What we should do, IMO, if we suspect "art", is to investigate the nature of the "artist". That's exactly (if not in those terms) what evolutionary biologists do. This is quite different from attributing a "supernatural" cause to phenomenon. A "super-natural" cause, by definition, is a-causal. It simply puts a stop to continued investigation; it is equivalent to saying: Z caused Y and Y caused X and ... B caused A, but we don't know what caused A, so here we must stop, because we must allow for the possibility that what caused A is supernatural". If you want scientists to allow for the possibility of Divine Causation, then, effectively, what you must do is to draw a line beyond which no more causal explanations must be sought. That seems more like censorship to me than what Lewontin advocates!Elizabeth Liddle
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
if one subscribes to miracles, then there can be no way to control for any experiment and all scientific explanations are rendered untenable.
What is the difference between a miracle and the application of unknown technology? It seems contradictory that science would arbitrarily exclude the unknown.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
01:22 PM
1
01
22
PM
PDT
Doveton: Nice try: Here is Lewontin, in the whole section: ____________ >> Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen. The mutual exclusion of the material and the demonic has not been true of all cultures and all times. In the great Chinese epic Journey to the West, demons are an alternative form of life, responsible to certain deities, devoted to making trouble for ordinary people, but severely limited. They can be captured, imprisoned, and even killed by someone with superior magic.6 In our own intellectual history, the definitive displacement of divine powers by purely material causes has been a relatively recent changeover, and that icon of modern science, Newton, was at the cusp. It is a cliché of intellectual history that Newton attempted to accommodate God by postulating Him as the Prime Mover Who, having established the mechanical laws and set the whole universe in motion, withdrew from further intervention, leaving it to people like Newton to reveal His plan. But what we might call "Newton's Ploy" did not really get him off the hook. He understood that a defect of his system of mechanics was the lack of any equilibrating force that would return the solar system to its regular set of orbits if there were any slight perturbation. He was therefore forced, although reluctantly, to assume that God intervened from time to time to set things right again. It remained for Laplace, a century later, to produce a mechanics that predicted the stability of the planetary orbits, allowing him the hauteur of his famous reply to Napoleon. When the Emperor observed that there was, in the whole of the Mécanique Céleste, no mention of the author of the universe, he replied, "Sire, I have no need of that hypothesis." One can almost hear a stress on the "I." >> ___________ he got Newton wrong, mixing him up withthe Newtonians who followed -- should have worked through both the General Scholium and Opticks Query 31. He is indeed saying -- by quoting with approval [notice, no distancing] -- that "anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything." That is as broad-brush a dismissal as you are going to get. This then goes on to indict, via strawman caricature: "To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen." Sorry, it is you all who opened the can of worms, and they are squirming out. They will not be stuffed back into the can now. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
EL @ 73 -- I totally agree. I am, like most scientists, a methodological naturalist but not a philosophical one. I don't dismiss the possibility of 'non material causes' but I don't assume they exist in every gap, or project them to support any theistic ideology. When I work as a scientist I am studying the material world. The hypothesis that an intelligent entity intervened in the creation of life falls under the discipline of science but only so far as that entity can be understood and studied through the methodology of science. If that entity is unknowable in power and scope then science cannot study it or reliably measure its effect on the world because we cannot know if ANY observed mechanism is actually real, or just an illusion created by an all powerful being. I would summarize the differences between the stance KF is demanding and science like this: 1>> The non materialist stance -lets assume a being of unknowable power can intervene in the world in an unlimited way. Now lets try and explain what we observe. 2>> The methodological naturalist stance - Lets assume that what we observe and measure can be explained in terms of what we can observe and measure, and see how far we can get. I prefer 2 myself, it makes more sense and delivers better results. It is limited to what can be measured and observed, and I would note, the only things observed to engage in design and behave 'intelligently' are living, material things on earth. I believe someone pointed out here a while ago that if you want to invoke an 'intelligent' cause for the origin of all life, then that cause cannot be alive.DrBot
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
Lizzie, I wasn't talking about an organism deplaying intent within its environment, I was talking about INTENT being manifest in the molecuolar biology of the organism itself. - - - - - - - By the way, do you plan on returning to our previous converasation? I have a post waiting for you there regarding the challenge we had been discussing. Here Upright BiPed
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
01:19 PM
1
01
19
PM
PDT
KF,
What I find astonishing is that some people actually seem to believe that the two sentences JUSTIFY ideological censorship on science.
Well, I certainly don't believe the two sentences justify ideological censorship, but then I don't agree that checking one's belief in God at the door when trying to arrive at scientific explanations is ideological censorship. As noted above, if one subscribes to miracles, then there can be no way to control for any experiment and all scientific explanations are rendered untenable. That is, unless one places some kind of box around God that defines the limits of what He can and cannot affect, but then that raises the question of what the term "God" actually refers to.Doveton
June 15, 2011
June
06
Jun
15
15
2011
01:18 PM
1
01
18
PM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 8

Leave a Reply