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Given Materialism, What Reason Do We Have to Trust Ourselves?

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Two years ago I asked this question:  How Can We Know One Belief Selected for By Evolution is Superior to Another?

I illustrated the conundrum faced by the evolutionary materialist (EM) with this little back and forth:

Theist: You say there is no God.

EM: Yes.

Theist: Yet belief in God among many (if not most) humans persists.

EM: I cannot deny that.

Theist: How do you explain that?

EM: Religious belief is an evolutionary adaption.

Theist: But you say religious belief is false.

EM: That’s correct.

Theist: Let me get this straight. According to you, religious belief has at least two characteristics: (1) it is false; and (2) evolution selected for it.

EM [looking a little pale now, because he’s just figured out where this is going]: Correct.

Theist: You believe the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis [NDS] is true.

EM: Of course.

Theist: How do you know your belief in NDS is not another false belief that evolution has selected for?

EM: ___________________

Our materialist friends are invited to fill in the blank.

Today I was reading an essay by Alvin C. Plantinga in The Nature of Nature that bore on this topic, and I decided to go to Google to see if anyone had attempted to fill in the blank.  And I found this by someone who posts as “Robin”:

Theist: How do you know your belief in NDS is not another false belief that evolution has selected for?

EM: Because I don’t have any belief in NDS; I understand through actual study of the data and parameters how it works and, in many cases, why it works the way it does.

Barry: Our materialist friends are invited to fill in the blank.

Done and done, wanker.

I thought this response was amusing (especially the smug “wanker” at the end), because Robin does not even understand the issue raised by my post, far less how to address it.  Let me elucidate.

The Issue

I will let Dr. Plantinga set out the issue:

[Evolutionary materialist philosopher Patricia Churchland] insists that the most important thing about the human brain is that it has evolved; this means, she says, that its principal function is to enable the organism to move appropriately:

Boiled down to essentials, a nervous system enables the organism to succeed in the four F’s: feeding, fleeing, fighting and reproducing. The principal chore of nervous systems is to get the body parts where they should be in order that the organism may survive . . . . Improvements in sensorimotor control confer an evolutionary advantage: a fancier style of representing is advantageous so long as it is geared to the organism’s way of life and enhances the organism’s chances of survival [Churchland’s emphasis. Truth, whatever that is, definitely takes the hindmost.

What Churchland means, I think, is that evolution is directly interested (so to speak) only in adaptive behavior (in a broad sense including physical functioning) not in true belief. Natural selection doesn’t care what you believe; it is interested only in how you behave. It selects for certain kinds of behavior: those that enhance fitness, which is a measure of the chances that one’s genes are widely represented in the next and subsequent generations. It doesn’t select for belief, except insofar as the latter is appropriately related to behavior . . . Churchland’s claim, I think, can perhaps be understood as a suggestion that the objective probability that our cognitive faculties are reliable, given [evolutionary] naturalism . . . is low.

Alvin C. Plantinga, Evolution Versus Naturalism, The Nature of Nature, 137

Now immediately the materialist might object that we are slicing this topic way too thinly, because while it is true that natural selection cares only about how we behave and not how we believe, our behavior necessarily follows from our beliefs.  Therefore, natural selection indirectly selects for true belief.  Not so.  As Dr. Plantinga explains, adaptive behavior and true belief are not necessarily connected at all.  He posits Paul, a prehistoric hominid who sees a hungry tiger.  Fleeing is obviously the most adaptive behavior.  But that behavior may be compelled by a large number of belief-desire pairs:

Perhaps Paul very much likes the idea of being eaten, but when he sees a tiger, always runs off looking for a better prospect, because he thinks it unlikely that the tiger he sees will eat him. This will get his body parts in the right place so far as survival is concerned, without involving much in the way of true belief . . . Or perhaps he thinks the tiger is a large, friendly, cuddly pussycat and wants to pet it; but he also believes that the best way to pet it is to run away from it . . . or perhaps he thinks the tiger is a regularly recurring illusion, and, hoping to keep his weight down, has formed the resolution to run a mile at top speed whenever presented with such an illusion; or perhaps he thinks he is about to take part in a 1600 meter race, wants to win and believes the appearance of the tiger is the starting signal; or perhaps . . . Clearly there are any number of belief-cum-desire systems that equally a given bit of behavior. (WPF 225-26)

You might object that Paul is a loon and his beliefs are ludicrous and unlikely to happen.  But that is exactly Plantinga’s point.  Even ludicrous belief, if it produces survival enhancing behavior, will be selected for, and this reinforces the point that natural selection selects for behavior, not true belief.

Plantinga also makes a point similar to that in my original post:  “Religious belief is nearly universal across the world; according to naturalists it is false, but nevertheless adaptive.”

So Robin misses the boat entirely when she dismisses the challenge of the original post with: “Because I don’t have any belief in NDS; I understand through actual study of the data and parameters how it works and, in many cases, why it works the way it does.”

Let’s examine her errors: 

Error 1:

Robin asserts she does not have any “belief in NDS” (i.e., the Neo-Darwinian Synthesis).  Nonsense.  Of course you do, and it is absurd to suggest otherwise.

You obviously misunderstood the word “belief” in the context of the post.  Wikipedia says this about “belief” in its article on epistemology:

In common speech, a statement of “belief” means that the speaker has faith (trust) that something will prove to be useful or successful— the speaker might “believe in” his favorite football team or “believe in” his dad. This is not the kind of belief addressed within epistemology. The kind dealt with simply means any cognitive content accepted as true whether or not there is sufficient proof or reason. For example, to believe that the sky is blue is to accept the proposition “The sky is blue” as true, even if one cannot see the sky. To believe is to accept as true.

In her comment Robin used “belief” in the “common speech” sense.  Obviously, I was using the word in the epistemological sense of “to accept as true.”  In that sense Robin obviously has a “belief” about the NDS.  She accepts it as true.

Error 2:

Robin says “I understand through actual study of the data . . .”

Well, that’s the question isn’t it?  The fact that you believe Darwinism is true (no matter how much you have studied) has no bearing on the question of whether your cognitive faculties are reliable in the first place.  You are essentially saying, “My cognitive faculties give me confidence that the product of my cognitive faculties (i.e, belief in the truth of Darwinism) is true.”  And that’s like saying, “You should believe I tell the truth because I am telling you that I always tell the truth.”  So your argument begs the question.

Conclusion

Reductive materialist Darwinism is irrational, because it is self-referentially incoherent.  It affirms at one and the same time two mutually exclusive propositions:  (1) A belief in reductive materialist Darwinism is a true belief; and (2) There is no way to rule out whether in any given case reductive materialist Darwinism has selected for a false belief.

So, Robin, the next time you call someone a “wanker” after you think you have just defeated their argument, you might want to find a person smarter than you (that shouldn’t be hard) and check with them  to make sure you understand the question, much less the answer to the question.

Comments
DR: Nope, the fossils -- and for that matter, universal common descent -- are fully consistent with common design, they do not decide the matter. And that is before we get to the issue of show-me, there is no credible observationally warranted materialistic mechanism for OOL, and no empirically warranted materialist account of the origin of major body plans and of the required functionally specific complex organisation and associated information. The issue is far more basic, that evolutionary materialism is a worldview [nope it is not science or a logically necessary f=ground for science etc], one that demonstrably in principle and in relevant cases reduces to self referential absurdity in many ways. That is, as a matter of logic, it is self-refuting and necessarily false. It is therefore not a viable worldview. Not by "assumption" but by demonstration. Observe the point made by famous evolutionist J B S Haldane on this, ever so long ago now:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
That we have such difficulty seeing this, speaks volumes about where our civilisation has reached today. KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2013
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PS: have you reflected on the way that mathematics is so eerily powerful in science and in everyday life? it can be shown that by starting with the empty set, which collects nothing but is something, we can in succession create the natural numbers per Zermelo Frankel. From this, we can construct a continuum by an infinitely deep tree of fractions (in effect infinitely deep decimal numbers or more precisely the convergent series summarised in decimal numbers etc), which will have the cardinality of the continuum. From continuum, we can use the square root of -1 to get both rotation and space via an orthogonal axis and the exponential form of complex numbers. 3-D space comes in via other roots of unity leading to the ijk system and vectors and matrices. Points in space can be seen as taking up successive positions, hence kinematics. Blend in inertia, force, momentum and energy and we are in familiar territory. So, we have a unified ex nihilo mathematical framework for physical reality. That points to the possibility of unifying mind that has so ordered reality as we experience it mathematically, as the best explanation for that. And this is before we get to the fine tuning evidence.kairosfocus
March 18, 2013
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G2: Did you look at the cases of say the pink unicorn or the flying spaghetti monster and wonder why they would not be serious candidates? An immediate reason is they are both COMPOSITE, material, extended objects. So, they have dependence on external, necessary [enabling on/off] causal factors. It is not just a matter of my say-so, as you would have realised if you had taken time to follow, e.g. my discussion that starts with the case of the fire tetrahedron and shows the difference between contingent and necessary beings; there is a reason for this, not just a clash over who is boss. No material entity composed of components [such as atoms etc] can be a serious candidate necessary being, as has been known and put on the record since time immemorial. Nothing with a beginning or that can come to an end is a serious candidate necessary being. And so forth. Contrast a key case, the truth asserted in the symbols 2 + 3 = 5. This does not depend on material components, has no beginning and cannot end. It is logically impossible for it to be false, on pain of absurdity. indeed, it is self-evident. Another serious candidate is what is needed to hold such truths eternally, an eternal mind. All that I am saying is that we have categories of potential being: impossible, possible/contingent, necessary. Something is impossible if it cannot exist in any possible world. Contingent beings may or may not exist but would exist in a possible world, perhaps the actual one we experience, perhaps an alternative. necessary beings are such that if a world is possible, they will be there. God, is conceived as an eternal mind, with certain properties. This is a serious candidate to be a necessary being, per the issues outlined above. To deny actuality, what is needed is to show God to be contingent [which contradicts what is meant by God . . . if a being is contingent it cannot be a serious candidate to be God] or impossible. The latter is the implicit task- of- warrant for a major worldview claim confronting atheists. And that, too is not a mere matter of my say so so that a legitimate retort is "sez who." It is a matter of logic, of reason. But then, these days, reason seems to be at a steep discount in the marketplace of ideas. And so, I think Solomon, personified as Sophia [Lady Wisdom], has somewhat to say to our time:
Prov 1:20 ????????Wisdom cries aloud in the street, in the markets she raises her voice; 21 ????????at the head of the noisy streets she cries out; at the entrance of the city gates she speaks: 22 ????????“How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple? How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing and fools hate knowledge? 23 ????????If you turn at my reproof,1 behold, I will pour out my spirit to you; I will make my words known to you. 24 ????????Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded, 25 ????????because you have ignored all my counsel and would have none of my reproof, 26 ????????I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when terror strikes you, 27 ????????when terror strikes you like a storm and your calamity comes like a whirlwind, when distress and anguish come upon you. 28 ????????Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently but will not find me. 29 ????????Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD, 30 ????????would have none of my counsel and despised all my reproof, 31 ????????therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way, and have their fill of their own devices. 32 ????????For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them; 33 ????????but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster.” [ESV]
A word to the wise, or to those who would be wise . . . KFkairosfocus
March 18, 2013
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The author's reasoning directly implies that it doesn't matter what the fossils look like, or what biochemical research shows, or what any evidence of any kind looks like — if evolution creates a contradiction that undermines the reliability of our reasoning powers, then we must assume evolution is false. The ID movement, on the other hand, is based on the idea that evidence does matter; that evidence is what refutes evolution, and confirms some sort of intentional design process. The author fails to realize that the conundrum of trying to verify the reliability of your own reasoning powers with those same powers is simply unsolvable. It is not caused by evolution; nor is it solved by religion. It's just an annoying paradox that will never go away.DarelRex
March 17, 2013
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To KF @85: a serious candidate ... apparantly you have already decided what this is. And mathematically unified order of reality ... what on earth is that ?Graham2
March 17, 2013
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thaumaturge (77) Let's say - for the sake of argument - that thinking is as trustworthy as a computer doing calculations. We can trust the computer if the programmer of the software - natural selection - has done a good job. Which is the case if the programmer has programmed correctly for all possible kinds of calculations. But how could this be? How can the instruction manual in the Chinese Room contain all possible questions and instructions? How can we deal with new challenges on which natural selection didn't yet select? What if we - residents of the Chinese Room - are confronted with questions on which the manual has no instructions? Moreover matter has been programmed to mimic thinking by something - natural selection - which doesn't know what thinking is. The whole concept doesn't seem trustworthy to me.Box
March 17, 2013
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LoL! Who would want to discuss anything with keiths? He is just another grand equivocator and strawman maker.Joe
March 17, 2013
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Just to confirm that if anyone wanted to continue discussing with thaumaturge, you are welcome at the Skeptical Zone, where you qan find him posting as KeithS. You used to be able to follow the link by clicking on my name but due, no doubt, to some technical glitch, it now links back to UD. So here it is.Alan Fox
March 17, 2013
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Graham2 #83 "PeterJ: There is another possibility: ‘we dont know’." Agreed, therefore what's so wrong with considering 'a spirit in the sky', as you put it?PeterJ
March 17, 2013
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keiths' sockpuppet:
My truck consists of thousands of parts. Every one of those parts is incapable, by itself, of getting me to work in the morning. Yet somehow all of them together manage to do it. How is that possible?
Intelligent Design. Or do you think that blind and undirected processes can put together a car from all of its parts?Joe
March 17, 2013
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WJM: Actually, at least to Plato and probably beyond, cf here on in context. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2013
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Graham2 said:
First of all, I think the ’causeless cause’ stuff can be put to bed now that we know about quantum theory.
Perhaps you can explain why infinite regress is circumvented by quantum theory?
The more troubling bit is the first part: ‘to prevent regress …’. So, if you cant explain something, you invent a spirit in the sky to tidy up the loose ends.
No, I postulate the only rational answer to the problem of infinite regress: a causeless cause, or the "unmoved mover". The "spirit in the sky" part is just your tired, hackneyed way of attempting to demean a sound logical premise that dates back to Aristotle. Perhaps if you stepped outside of the mindset of condescension towards theism that apparently prompts those kinds of dismissive characterizations ("The rest is just theology.", you could actually understand the nature of these kinds of theistic arguments and why virtually every statement you make directly implicates theistic principles - even if you deny them.William J Murray
March 17, 2013
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PS: IIRC, someone above suggested that quantum events are causeless. Since cause includes enabling on/off switch factors (necessary causal factors like heat, fuel, oxidiser and chain reaction for a fire) it can easily be shown that quantum phenomena and effects -- note the word -- are not acausal. Cf discussion here in the UD WACs for details I do not wish to play out in a thread at length. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2013
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G2: We do know the relevant logic on cause and being. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2013
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PJ & G2: The fundamental challenge is that necessity of being is not an incoherent concept in itself, e.g. the truth in 2 + 3 = 5 is a case in point. So, we need to face the issue that where there is a serious candidate to be a necessary being -- one that must exist in all possible worlds -- it will either be impossible or possible, and if possible then it will exist in all possible worlds including the actual one(s) so, if a serious candidate necessary being is not impossible, it is actual. [Silly counter examples such as unicorns and flying spaghetti monsters are patently contingent, not good candidates.] God is such a serious candidate, and what is being ducked by today's atheists is that they are really taking on the challenge of trying to show God is impossible, in a context where their favourite former argument to do that was shattered by Plantinga 40 years ago. In short, what G2 needs to point out to us, is how there is not a necessary mind that explains the mathematically unified order of reality, and grounds the evident fine tuned design of the observed cosmos and even of the suggested speculative multiverse. Per, such an eternal mind being IMPOSSIBLE, by virtue of incoherence or the like. That attempt, I would like to see. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2013
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Thaumaturge (Not banned at UD as at 9:45 pm last evening . . . ) I would put it to you that the parts of your truck do not explain their specific functionality, and that there are vastly many more non-functional ways they could be arranged than functional ones, leading to the island of function effect that you -- per indication you are KS -- are so dismissive of. They have been intelligently arranged and coupled together, in accord with a Wicken wiring diagram, which was itself intelligently designed. Thus function is dependent on FSCO/I. Now, on materialistic views, the functional organisation of our brains is in need of explanation as a massively evident case of such FSCO/I, but also that needs to explain the capacity to address knowledge , warrant and logic, where for instance you know or should know of several infamous cases of microprocessors that ran into trouble on just this point. Logic gates and flip flops etc, miswired, will happily execute nonsense till there is a crash. Similarly, if they are fed with semantically incorrect software. Hence, GIGO. That does not yet arrive at intentionality and the like. And, above, I pointed to three very specific cases, with a fourth on general obseevations, of the problem of materialist systems ending reliably in self referential incoherence. That is what you need to address cogently and substantially rather than on ipse dixitism that looks for all the world like ideological trotting out of programmed dismissive talking points, rather than a substantial engagement. I have laid out why I and significantly many others think there are serious problems of self referential incoherence in evolutionary materialism. What is your substantial answer? KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2013
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PeterJ: There is another possibility: 'we dont know'.Graham2
March 17, 2013
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Graham2 #70 'The more troubling bit is the first part: ‘to prevent regress …’. So, if you cant explain something, you invent a spirit in the sky to tidy up the loose ends.' Or we could could just leave God out of the equation altogether, as it's obviously a science stopper, and just believe that it all began at the big-bang, which of course would have required a cause, which itself would have required a cause, which would have been a cause that would have required a cause, which in turn would have needed a cause of its own, which would have had to have been caused by something, which of course would have required a prior cause ... Look, it's a great game, if you have the time ;)PeterJ
March 17, 2013
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T: KINDLY, ENLIGHTEN ME AS TO MY ERROR IN HIGHLIGHTING MATERIALIST SELF REFUTING SYSTEMS, ON SUBSTANCE NOT IPSE DIXIT. KFkairosfocus
March 17, 2013
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"The option you are missing is that there could be a first cause which is not a necessary being." Well actually I covered that in my option "4)Something exists necessarily." But whatever that something is it is a neccessary something. You want to propose something else other than a "being" I am hapy with that, for a materialist I consider that progress. "And by that reasoning, a being that does some things has to do everything, or else it is not a necessary being. Since a good God does not do evil, he does not do everything. He therefore cannot be a necessary being by your criterion." I reject your reasoning that a being that does somethings has to do everything. Thats your reasoning not mine.You seem to have a very unsophisticated view of freedom and what it is to have limits. I guess for you to have no limits is to be able to do even the impossible. God can do whatever is actually possible He cannot do the impossible. I dont consider the inability to do the impossible as a limitation. "No. Like you, I am a compatibilist, so I have no problem with the idea that freedom consists in doing that which is in one’s nature to do. But compatibilist free will is in fact limited, by your own criterion" Yes it most surely is that is why the term free will is a oxymoron.I prefer free choice which I define to be the abilty to choose that which is possible for the one to choose, the one the chooser most wants to choose, given the options available at the time the choice is made. But as I pointed out that is what freedom of choice is. If you choose something that you dont MOST want then your choice is being restricted in some way and that is the oppositie of freedom. It is no limitation on God that He will not choose that which He most wants not to choose. But you say it is His attributes, likes and dislikes that limits that which He most wants to choose and most wants not to choose. But that is not a limitation. WHat would be a limitation would be in the choosing by God of something He most wants not to choose. I dont understand why this is so difficult to grasp. To do anthing I want that is actually possible when I want to do it in accordance with my nature speaks of an unlimitless being not a limited one. "If a necessary being necessarily creates a second being, then the second being is also necessary." A neccessary being is a being that cannot not exist.The created being you speak of did not exist and now does. So it can not exist and therefore cannot be a second necessary being. There are other reasons as well but the fact that you even proposed this as an example leads me to suspect you would not be able to grasp the more sophisticated arguments as to why there can only be one necessary being. "I think the word you want is “fathom”, not “phantom”." Thanks I also mispelled coerced as coherced. How did you miss that one? "Anyway, since you’re a theist, don’t you think that God is a “causeless cause”? I would say that God is uncaused. Be that it may I cant fathom an uncaused being or a causelss cause. When I try I get a charley horse between my ears. Can you fathom a causeless cause? Vividvividbleau
March 16, 2013
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Thamaturge, I wasn't denying that, in principle, neural networks can handle grammar -- I was only suggesting that, unlike with faces and other perceptual domains, we don't yet have a really good account of how they do it. However, I do think that any neural network that can handle grammar can handle logic -- I don't think the difference is all that great. The problem for naturalists is this: we can build devices that implement grammatical and logical rules, but (one might think) the normativity of those devices is parasitic on ours. So it doesn't really resolve, one way or the other, whether our normativity -- our capacity to recognize and respond to reasons, both epistemic and practical, arose through evolutionary processes (broadly construed) or through some mysterious, unspecified process that anti-naturalists call "design." I'm a naturalist, so my bet is on the former, but I'm not insensitive to the problem. Compared to the problem of the origin of rationality -- what I like to call "alogogenesis" -- abiogenesis is a piece of cake.Kantian Naturalist
March 16, 2013
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Kantian Naturalist, I'm not sure why you think that grammar presents a special problem for the materialist. Computers can do grammar, and neural networks can be constructed to be Turing complete, meaning that they can do anything that computers can do -- including grammar. We don't yet know specifically how grammar is handled in the human brain, but the fact that it is doable using neural networks is not in question.thaumaturge
March 16, 2013
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Box:
And this is an important reason not to trust our thoughts given materialism. Matter is in the driver seat and the bad news is that it is not thinking. We can only be fooled into believing that it does.
That is tantamount to this:
And this is an important reason not to trust our computers. Matter is in the driver seat and the bad news is that it is not doing arithmetic. We can only be fooled into believing that it does.
thaumaturge
March 16, 2013
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Box, If you don't like the truck analogy, let's return to the computer chip. An individual transistor cannot add two 32-bit numbers. Yet if you connect enough transistors together in the right way, you obtain a circuit that can add the numbers and produce the correct result. To me it is no surprise that a specific arrangement of transistors can do something that an individual transistor cannot, nor that a specific arrangement of truck parts can do something that an individual crankshaft cannot. Why, then, should it be a surprise that a brain can do something (comprehend English) that an individual neuron cannot? You might wish to argue that since a complex network of neurons is just an arrangement of matter operating according to the laws of physics, it can only mimic the comprehension of English. It can't really comprehend English. But by that reasoning, a computer chip only mimics addition. It doesn't really add the numbers. Do you really want to argue that a computer cannot add two numbers? On the other hand, if you concede that computers can really add numbers, then what is the essential difference between addition and English comprehension that allows the former to be accomplished by "mere matter" but not the latter?thaumaturge
March 16, 2013
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Thaumaturge (72), Thanks for your question. Like Kantian Naturalist I have some doubts about your analogy. I more or less answered your question in the same post (96) where you quoted from. The Churchlands did introduce some sort of whole and parts concept which strikes me as highly inappropriate within the naturalistic realm.Box
March 16, 2013
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Thamaturge,
Human minds are obviously not governed by the laws of reason. If they were, it would be impossible for us to make logical mistakes.
A better way of putting a point here would be say that persons are not governed by rational principles in the same sense of 'governed by' that particles are governed by physical laws. In the latter, the physical laws tell us what a particle will or would do; in the former, the rational principles tell us what a person should assert or deny. It's the "should-ness" or normativity that Box and I are interested in -- he/she thinks that normativity cannot be accommodated within metaphysical naturalism, and I think that it can be.
My truck consists of thousands of parts. Every one of those parts is incapable, by itself, of getting me to work in the morning. Yet somehow all of them together manage to do it. How is that possible?
The analogy is not too bad, but there's a really important disanalogy here, too. In the case of the truck and its parts, we have a theory that tells us how the different mechanical parts causally interact in order to produce a truck. (In the absence of that theoretical understanding, the truck looks like magic -- and if you give the parts to someone who doesn't understand how they fit together, a truck will not mysteriously materialize.) What we need, and don't seem to have, is a theory of how the systematic interactions between neurons produce maps, such as the rules of grammar. We have pretty good theoretical understandings of how the systematic interactions between neurons produce maps of perceptual features (e.g. faces), but grammar is something else. The point stands, though, that if you've got a theory of x, your intuition that ~x loses some epistemic credibility. And if the theory of x is a really good theory, then the intuition that ~x begins to look like an appeal to ignorance.Kantian Naturalist
March 16, 2013
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thaumaturge: You could loosely say that the brain “follows the laws of reason”, but that isn’t really correct. It follows the laws of physics.
Thaumaturge, we are in agreement on this. Let's concede - for the sake of argument - that the brain can mimic thinking and so can give us the illusion that it follows the laws of reason. If that were the case then the brain - in fact - does no such thing, because 'it follows the laws of physics' - like you said. And this is an important reason not to trust our thoughts given materialism. Matter is in the driver seat and the bad news is that it is not thinking. We can only be fooled into believing that it does.Box
March 16, 2013
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Box:
So the ‘whole brain’ understands English. If each and every neuron doesn’t understand English why would all the neurons combined suddenly understand English?
My truck consists of thousands of parts. Every one of those parts is incapable, by itself, of getting me to work in the morning. Yet somehow all of them together manage to do it. How is that possible?thaumaturge
March 16, 2013
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Box:
The way I see it is that the brain consists of matter and inside the brain is matter. Matter is governed by the laws of physics rather than the laws of reason.
Human minds are obviously not governed by the laws of reason. If they were, it would be impossible for us to make logical mistakes. I would put it this way:
1. All arrangements of matter merely follow the laws of physics. 2. They always follow the laws of physics. 3. Different arrangements of matter do different things. For example, some arrangements of matter can successfully add one number to another under certain conditions. We use such arrangements of matter inside computer chips. 4. You could loosely say that such arrangements "follow the laws of arithmetic," but really they just follow the laws of physics like every other arrangement of matter. If the chip has a bug, or it heats up too much, or the voltage drops too low, it will no longer add numbers correctly. 5. A brain is an arrangement of matter that, like every other arrangement of matter, merely follows the laws of physics. 6. You could loosely say that the brain "follows the laws of reason", but that isn't really correct. It follows the laws of physics. If the brain is intoxicated, or the blood glucose level drops too low, or the problem it is working on is too difficult, it may no longer reason correctly.
thaumaturge
March 16, 2013
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To WJM #50: To prevent infinite regress with a causeless cause First of all, I think the 'causeless cause' stuff can be put to bed now that we know about quantum theory. The more troubling bit is the first part: 'to prevent regress ...'. So, if you cant explain something, you invent a spirit in the sky to tidy up the loose ends. The rest is just theology.Graham2
March 16, 2013
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