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Fuller vs. Ruse: some thoughts on the controversy

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I have just been reading two articles on Intelligent Design which appeared in The Guardian recently: Science in God’s image (May 3, 2010) and
Intelligent design is an oxymoron (May 5, 2010). After reading the articles, I decided to write a detailed commentary on them both.

The first article is by Professor Steve Fuller and represents his personal view. Although his personal “take” on intelligent design is a controversial one in ID circles, Professor Fuller certainly has a clear grasp of what ID is and where it is heading.

The second article is by Professor Michael Ruse. Professor Ruse has previously debated ID proponents, including Professor William Dembski, so one might reasonably expect him to write a well-informed critique. However, after reading his latest article, I regret to say that Professor Ruse never seems to have understood the nature of the Intelligent Design project in the first place.

1. My comments on Professor Steve Fuller’s article

The most interesting paragraph of Professor Fuller’s article is also the most controversial one. It warrants careful analysis.

The most basic formulation of ID is that biology is divine technology. In other words, God is no less – and possibly no more – than an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, whose distinctive species calling card is art, science and technology. Thus, when ID supporters claim that a cell is as intelligently designed as a mousetrap, they mean it literally. The difference between God and us is simply that God is the one being in whom all of our virtues are concentrated perfectly, whereas for our own part those virtues are distributed imperfectly amongst many individuals.

Before I comment on this paragraph, I’d like to recall what I wrote in a post entitled In Praise of Subtlety (22 April 2010), on the philosophy of John Duns Scotus, a medieval theologian known as the Subtle Doctor:

Scotus held that since intelligence and goodness were pure perfections, not limited by their very nature to a finite mode of realization, they could be predicated univocally of God and human beings. To be sure, God’s way of knowing and loving is altogether different from ours: it belongs to God’s very essence to know and love perfectly, whereas we can only know and love by participating in God’s knowledge and love. Also, God’s knowledge and goodness are essentially infinite, while our knowledge and goodness are finite. However, what it means for God to know and love is exactly the same as what it means for human beings to know and love.

However, God is not a Superman. Speaking as a Christian who professes the Catholic faith, and who happens to admire certain aspects of Duns Scotus’ philosophy, I would reverse Professor Fuller’s statement that God is an infinitely better version of the ideal Homo sapiens, for two reasons: first, it exposes believers to the charge of anthropomorphism, and of making God in our own image; second, the ideal Homo sapiens is still an embodied being, whereas God is a spirit. What I would say instead is that human beings possess intelligence and moral goodness to a finite degree, precisely because they are made in the image and likeness of the infinite God. But whereas God is Intelligence and Goodness personified, humans can only know and love by participating in God’s intelligence and love.

What about Professor Fuller’s statement that “biology is divine technology”? This is a statement which no scientist or theologian needs to fear, if by “technology” we simply mean the generation of things whose creation requires skill. By “skill” I mean an activity performed by an intelligent agent acting intentionally, and resulting in information that generates a specific pattern or form. Skill, as I define it here, does not have to include the physical activity of assembling the parts of a thing, piece by piece. God is perfectly free to create as He chooses, using either natural or supernatural means. The term “divine technology” therefore refers to God’s intentional activity of creating certain patterns in nature which embody a very specific kind of information.

As I see it, the main point of the ID program is that certain identifiable features of living things had to have been explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere – whether directly (through an act of intervention), or indirectly (either by fine-tuning the initial conditions of the universe, or by building highly specific laws into the fabric of the cosmos, in order to generate the desired features). How God specified these features is unimportant; the question ID attempts to answer is: which features of the biosphere can be shown to be specified? Did God specify the design of the okapi? I have no idea. But ID proponents can confidently claim that the design of the first living cell, the body plans of the 30+ phyla of animals living today, and numerous irreducibly complex systems found in the cells of organisms (including the bacterial flagellum and the blood clotting system) were explicitly specified by the Creator of the biosphere. And the list of specifications is likely to keep growing.

Of course, religious believers are right to point out that even in the absence of any identifiable specifications, the cosmos, and every thing in it, would still need to be kept in being by God. For the cosmos is contingent; it cannot explain its own existence. This is a metaphysical fact, which believers (including many in the ID camp) will assent to. But ID itself is not a metaphysical project, but a scientific one. The question it seeks to answer in the biological arena is: are there any empirically identifiable features of living things that had to have been explicitly specified by their Creator, and if so, which ones?

The other paragraph I’d like to highlight from Steve Fuller’s essay is the following:

But the basic point that remains radical to this day is that, in important ways, the divine and the human are comparable. Notwithstanding Adam’s fall, we are still created “in the image and likeness of God”. From this biblical claim it follows that we might be capable of deploying the powers that distinguish us from the other animals to come closer to God. Such is the theological template on which the secular idea of progress was forged during the scientific revolution.

I agree with the theological point Fuller is making here. Of course the divine and human are comparable, despite the vast differences that separate them: even to say that God’s intelligence is infinite while that of humans is finite is to make a comparison, as it involves predicating intelligence of both God and human beings. The human intellect, which scientists use whenever they do science, is made in God’s image. Fuller’s modest statement that we “might be capable” (emphasis mine) of coming closer to God by using our intellects, which distinguish us from the other animals, is a worthy and pious hope. It is an historical fact that the pioneers of the scientific revolution thought they were thinking God’s thoughts after Him, and the contemporary scientific quest for a mathematically elegant “theory of everything” has a strong mystical streak: at heart, it reflects an endeavor to second-guess the way in which God, the Supreme Intelligence, would have designed the fundamental parameters of the cosmos.

This mysticism at the heart of science explains why Albert Einstein, although not a believer in a personal God, felt impelled to make declarations such as these: “I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research,” and “What I am really interested in is knowing whether God could have created the world in a different way; in other words, whether the requirement of logical simplicity admits a margin of freedom.”

Not being an historian of science, I do not wish to take issue with Professor Fuller’s assertion, which he makes later on his article, that ID “is no more anti-science than the original Protestant reformers were atheists,” or with his view that the Scientific Revolution was to a large degree inspired by Protestant thinking. I will simply point out in passing that the scientific revolution is commonly considered to have begun with the publication of two ground-breaking works in 1543: Nicolaus Copernicus’s De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres) and Andreas Vesalius’s De humani corporis fabrica (On the Fabric of the Human body). Both of these works were written by Catholics. On the whole, I believe Christianity – whether Catholic or Protestant – to be a science-friendly religion.

In my opinion, however, Fuller’s observation that people today are taking science into their own hands, just as they took religion into their hands in the 16th and 17th centuries, is sociologically accurate, and he is surely right to draw parallels between the role of the Internet as the means by which people are now calling into question assertions made by experts in various scientific fields (think of global warming, for instance), and the role of the printing press in the 16th and 17th centuries as the vehicle through which statements by authority figures in the religious domain were brought into question.

2. My comments on Professor Michael Ruse’s article

I am very sorry to say that Professor Ruse’s article, Intelligent design is an oxymoron, contains about as many factual and logical inaccuracies as it contains statements. These inaccuracies relate to science, philosophy and religion. To illustrate my point, I shall quote excerpts from the article and briefly comment on each.

At the heart of Steve Fuller’s defense of intelligent design theory (ID) is a false analogy. He compares the struggles of the ID supporters to the travails of the Protestant Reformers. Just as they stood against the established Catholic church, so the ID supporters stand against establishment science, specifically Darwinian evolutionary theory. Where this comparison breaks down is that the Protestants were no less Christians than the Catholics. It was rather that they differed over the right way to get to heaven. For the Protestants it was justification through faith, believing in the Lord, whereas for Catholics, it was good works. Given that Saint Augustine, some thousand years before, had labeled the Catholic position the heresy of Pelagianism, the reformers had a good point.

The first paragraph of Professor Ruse’s article is riddled with factual errors. Where to begin?

(1) Full marks to Professor Ruse for acknowledging that Protestants and Catholics are both Christians. At least he got that right.

(2) Professor Ruse is quite wrong in claiming that Catholics believe good works will get you to Heaven. Indeed, the Catechism of the Catholic Church declares the contrary: “We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved” (paragraph 2005). Paragraphs 1987-2029 of the Catechism explain what the Catholic Church actually teaches on grace and justification. Readers will be pleasantly surprised to learn that Catholics and Protestants are a lot closer on these issues than is popularly assumed.

(3) Pelagius, according to the same catechism, “held that man could by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life” (paragraph 406). As the catechism mentions in a footnote, Pelagius’s teachings (including a watered-down version of his views, called Semipelagianism) were officially condemned by the Catholic Church at the Second Council of Orange in 529 A.D.

(4) Saint Augustine did not label the Catholic position “Pelagianism.” On the contrary, he did everything in his power (including lobbying two Popes) to get the Catholic Church to condemn Pelagius’ errors – an endeavor in which he was finally successful.

(5) The Catechism of the Catholic Church approvingly cites St. Augustine no less than six times in its article on Grace and Justification (paragraphs 1987-2029). Which is a pretty odd thing to do if St. Augustine said the Catholic Church was in “heresy,” don’t you think?

Not a good start. And I’m afraid it doesn’t get better. Here’s another excerpt:

In the ID case, whatever its supporters may say publicly for political purposes – in the USA thanks to the First Amendment you cannot teach religion in state-funded schools – the intention is to bring God into the causal process. ID claims that there are some phenomena (like the bacterial flagellum and the blood-clotting cascade) are so “irreducibly complex,” that to explain them we must invoke an “intelligent designer.” As they admit among themselves – the philosopher-mathematician William Dembski is quite clear on this – the designer is none other than our old friend the God of Christianity.

(1) “Bring God into the causal process”?? The notion makes absolutely no sense. According to religious believers, no causal process could exist without God in the first place. God sustains the universe in being; it would not exist, even for a second, without Him.

(2) Irreducibly complexity doesn’t come in degrees; either a system is irreducibly complex or it isn’t. Professor Ruse’s phrase “so irreducibly complex” (emphasis mine) betrays a misunderstanding of this point.

(3) Professor Dembski’s views on the identity of the intelligent designer form no part of Intelligent Design theory, as contained in ID textbooks. Intelligent Design as such is a scientific project.

(4) Professor Dembski’s religious views and motives are no more germane to the scientific merits of Intelligent Design theory than the atheistic views and motives of most neo-Darwinists are of relevance to the scientific merits of neo-Darwinism.

Professor Ruse opens his third paragraph with the following jaw-dropper:

The trouble for the Fuller analogy is that science simply does not allow God as a causal factor.

Now, if Professor Ruse had claimed that science does not explicitly invoke God as a causal factor, he would have been on strong argumentative ground. But to say that science does not allow God as a causal factor is patently absurd. Or does Ruse really think that scientists can legislate God out of existence?

Professor Ruse goes on to cite a nineteenth-century Anglican divine, William Whewell, on the limits of science:

“The mystery of creation is not within the range of her [science’s] legitimate territory; she says nothing, but she points upwards.”

Three points in reply:

(1) Whewell’s view on the limits of science is a venerable and respected one; but that does not make it right. In the end, science is the quest for the best explanations of the phenomena we observe. In the last few decades, modern science has encountered certain highly specified phenomena, within the domains of both physics (finely tuned constants of nature) and biology (specified complexity within the cell). Maybe methodological naturalism needs to be questioned.

(2) Intelligent Design theory does not specify the identity of the Designer, as Professor Ruse is well aware.

(3) Even if ID proponents were to reason like Professor Fuller would like them to do, and try to reverse-engineer the cell, assuming it to have been designed by an infinitely intelligent Being (God), the modus operandi of the Creator would still remain a mystery. Thus even if scientists were to abandon methodological naturalism and embrace theism, creation would retain an aura of mystery for them.

Professor Ruse continues:

In the 20th century, two of the most important Darwinian biologists – Ronald Fisher in England and the Russian-born Theodosius Dobzhansky in America – were deeply committed Christians.

Now, Fisher was indeed a devout Anglican, despite his rather Darwinian views on eugenics; but Dobzhansky’s religious views were anything but Christian, according to this interesting article by Denyse O’Leary. A eulogy published by Dobzhansky’s pupil Francisco Ayala in 1977 described the content of his religion thus: “Dobzhansky was a religious man, although he apparently rejected fundamental beliefs of traditional religion, such as the existence of a personal God and of life beyond physical death. His religiosity was grounded on the conviction that there is meaning in the universe. He saw that meaning in the fact that evolution has produced the stupendous diversity of the living world and has progressed from primitive forms of life to mankind. Dobzhansky held that, in man, biological evolution has transcended itself into the realm of self-awareness and culture. He believed that somehow mankind would eventually evolve into higher levels of harmony and creativity.” [Ayala, F.J., “Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution,” Journal of Heredity, Vol. 68, January-February 1977, p. 9.]

Professor Ruse goes on to accuse ID proponents of being defeatists, and hence no true scientists:

As Thomas Kuhn pointed out repeatedly, when scientists cannot find solutions, they don’t blame the world. They blame themselves. You don’t give up in the face of disappointments. You try again. Imagine if Watson and Crick had thrown in the towel when their first model of the DNA molecule proved fallacious. The very essence of ID is admitting defeat and invoking inexplicable miracles. The bacterial flagellum is complex. Turn to God! The blood clotting cascade is long and involved. Turn to God! That is simply not the way to do science.

(1) Contrary to what Ruse claims, ID proponents are eternally grateful to Watson and Crick for persevering in their quest to identify the structure of DNA. Without their persistence, scientists would never have known that DNA is a digital code, which contains a large amount of specified information. It was precisely this feature of DNA that Dr. Stephen Meyer highlighted in his recent book, Signature in the Cell, in which he argued that only the intentional activity of an intelligent agent could adequately explain the occurrence of DNA.

(2) ID proponents would never urge a scientist to give up trying to understand a process that is already known to occur, such as heredity. We should never give up trying to understand what things are; that’s science. The question that preoccupies ID is where they came from, or what process generated them in the first place.

(3) ID invokes an Intelligent Designer only when it has established that the probability of a specified biological feature arising as a result of the laws of nature coupled with random processes, falls below a well-defined threshold. Thus if evolutionary naturalism is true, then the emergence of this feature would be astronomically improbable. In a situation like this, invoking an Intelligent Designer is not “giving up”; on the contrary, it simply amounts to a rational decision to stop flogging a dead horse (evolutionary naturalism).

(4) As a scientific project, Intelligent Design does not equate the Designer with God, even if many ID proponents happen to believe that the Designer is in fact God.

In any case, there’s no need to worry, Professor Ruse assures us: science has succeeded in explaining away the very phenomena that gave rise to ID theory.

And as it happens, both the flagellum and the cascade have revealed their very natural, law-bound mysteries to regular scientists who keep plugging away and wouldn’t take “no” for an answer.

(1) Regarding the flagellum: curious readers may like to click here to hear Professor Michael Behe explain why, in his view, the flagellum is irreducibly complex, on Intelligent Design the Future. Behe also examines the two currently proposed evolutionary explanations for the assembly of the flagellum, co-option and homology, showing why both proposals fall short in uncovering the origins of this molecular machine. See also Behe’s recent blog post, “Reducible complexity’ in PNAS, which debunks claims that the evolution of the flagellum has now been explained in naturalistic terms, without the need for a Designer.

(2) As regards the blood clotting cascade, readers might like to begin with In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade: Response to Russell Doolittle, Ken Miller and Keith Robison (July 31, 2000), by Professor Michael Behe, as well as Casey Luskin’s recent recap, Kenneth Miller, Michael Behe and the Irreducible Complexity of the Blood Clotting Cascade Saga (January 1, 2010), which has links to eleven follow-up articles on the blood clotting cascade.

I am not a scientist; but my impression is that Professor Behe acquits himself well in this dispute.

Professor Ruse has argued robustly, if erroneously, up to this point. But suddenly his tone changes from aggressive to wounded:

ID is theology – very bad theology. As soon as you bring God into the world on a daily creative basis, then the theodicy problem – the problem of evil – rears its ugly head. If God works away miraculously to do the very complex, presumably in the name of goodness, then why on earth does God not occasionally get involved miraculously to prevent the very simple with horrendous consequences? Some very, very minor genetic changes have truly dreadful effects, causing people life-long pain and despair. If God thought it worth His time to make the blood clot, then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon’s Chorea?

(1) ID as such does not claim that God interacts with the world on a daily basis. Another possibility, for those who accept ID, is that God fine-tuned the initial conditions of the cosmos at the beginning of time, so as to bring about the eventual emergence of irreducibly complex systems, such as the blood clotting cascade. No supernatural intervention is required on this scenario.

(2) Repairing mutations which occur in millions of individuals, and relate to thousands of different diseases, would demand a lot more Divine intervention than the single act of creating an irreducibly complex system.

(3) “What about preventing these mutations from happening in the first place?” I hear you ask. Easier said than done, and until we know the biological cost associated with doing that, it’s premature to complain about God not doing so. Some of these mutations might be beneficial in certain circumstances; removing them might not be a good idea.

(4) Religious believers would add that the Fall of our first parents might well have prevented God from intervening to prevent human suffering as often as He would have liked, during human history. Perhaps God’s hands are tied to some extent, by His promise to respect our freedom.

(5) The rhetorical argument proves too much, and could be used against any kind of personal religion: “If God thought it worth His time to [answer a prayer or work a miracle], then why was it not worth His time to prevent Huntingdon’s Chorea?”

Professor Ruse concludes:

Keep God out of the day-to-day functioning of things. If, like the archbishop of Canterbury, you absolutely must have God do law-breaking miracles – apparently he would give up and become a Quaker if the tomb had not been empty on the third day – then at least restrict His activities to the cause of our salvation.

Three short comments in reply:

(1) God conserves everything in being. Like it or not, God is involved in the “day-to-day functioning of things.”

(2) As the Creator of the cosmos, God is entitled to work miracles as rarely or as often as He wishes, and for whatever reason He wishes.

(3) Professor Ruse should not try to tell God what to do.

Comments
Cabal, putting aside motive mongering for a moment: the presence of design (or lack thereof) is logically a category of cause unto itself; and while it may produce a flurry of questions when considered by the human intellect, there's nothing about it specifically that can't be independently considered, apart from the reasonable but completely separate and subsequent questions about identity, purpose, etc. While it may seem convenient to lump all these questions into one giant super-question about the ultimate purpose of the cosmos and everything in it, there exists no necessity to do so, other than to the satisfaction of our quite natural curiosity. I don't think you can make a believable case that we need to determine the precise nature and motive of a (any) designer before we can appropriately detect the presence of design. If design is a logical possibility as to ultimate causes of any artifact, then there shouldn't be any issue with accepting that it may very well be objectively detectable.Apollos
May 11, 2010
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Those recurring references to 'design', most often in conjunction with 'intelligent', what do they actually mean? They only raise huge ?'s in my mind; what is the content, the meaning behind the use of those words? "Something/some/body/bodies did something(s) sometime(s)? What is missing from the - as far as I can tell, very consistent, well researched and documented scientific theory of evolution? How many designers are there? Have they been operating for billions of years? It is not like the design hypothesis is full of holes like the ToE, ; it is more like a void.Cabal
May 11, 2010
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madbat, thanks for your response at #131, but could you expand upon your statement regarding infinite logical possibilities? I have put forward the two that I believe reasonably exhaust all others, and would be interested if even a third category exists that does not encroach on the logical territory of the other two. 1) The UCA was designed by an intelligent agent. 2) The UCA was the practical inevitability of chance acting with respect to natural laws. On a lesser note, considering the possibility of design as a cause in nature doesn't preclude any other type of natural cause.Apollos
May 11, 2010
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madbat089 @125 Please do. I am very doubtful that any of the actual physics and math will not have as a premise something based entirely on "unfettered imagination". Fortunately we don't need to understand the math or much of the physics at all to examine the premises. I look forward to it.andrewjg
May 11, 2010
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well, kairofocus, finally you said it plainly: you are not actually interested in discussing the merits of ID as a scientific theory, you are interested in talking about Michael Ruse's take on it. So, I am indeed wasting my time. Apollos, #129: I do indeed accept that both those logical possibilities exist, along with an infinite number of alternative logical possibilities. A priori materialism, at least in the sense I am using it, does not mean I rule out other logical explanations for anything, it means that I start from ONE of those possibilities to base my models and hypotheses on. Does ID do anything different here?madbat089
May 11, 2010
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Apollos @133,
1) It was designed — specified and brought into existence by an intelligent agent. 2) It came about as a result of chance in concert with natural laws — laws that produce observable, repeatable, decipherable patterns.
I accept both possibilities. I see evidence for 2, but have seen no evidence for 1. If anyone has evidence FOR 1, as opposed to evidence AGAINST 2, I'd like to see it.Toronto
May 11, 2010
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by the way, why is everybody all of a sudden so interested in this issue of budding universes? They might or might not exist - it is an interesting, relatively novel theory in astrophysics, that I mentioned in passing in #88, when I was addressing the argument of fine-tuning. But if they actually exist or not has no bearing whatsoever on the scientific merits of ID or evolutionary theory, for the reasons laid out in #88. So if you want to challenge me on anything that has actual significance to the ID-discussion, I suggest you challenge the reasoning on fine-tuning itself... Apart from the fact that I doubt anyone on this forum is qualified enough to challenge astrophysical algorithms and inferences - but I might be wrong, so if there are any astrophysicists out there: raise your hand! And if you are not qualified to lead a challenge yourself, then you need to find scientific papers that prove or at least argue why finding x of scientist A is not compatible with finding y by scientist B. Sorry, but your "belief" that a particular finding of Stephen Hawking is incompatible with what you want it to be incompatible with is not cutting it.madbat089
May 11, 2010
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There are two logical possibilities for the genesis of the UCA, the putative Universal Common Ancestor (a functional self-replicating single-celled organism): 1) It was designed -- specified and brought into existence by an intelligent agent. 2) It came about as a result of chance in concert with natural laws -- laws that produce observable, repeatable, decipherable patterns. madbat, either you accept that both of these logical possibilities exist, or you've ruled out design a priori. If it's the latter, then you're wasting everyone's time here, including your own.Apollos
May 11, 2010
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Onlookers MB continues to play at twisting and turning in a way that shows the deeply truth-challenged nature of evo mat, atheistical radical relativism. If peer editing of an article could publish a vital but controversial paper in 1905 that proved ultimately revolutionary [relativity continued to be controversial for quite some years] then plainly we see that this can happen again. And, if standards for publication changed once they can change again. Especially, when we see the rising tide of evidence that the current secret panel peer review process has been abused to enforce party line orthodoxies. Indeed, peer review is in flux currently, with ideas such as open review being on the table. [Open review is of course a kissing cousin of the older review by a panel of editors.] And in any case MB is plainly rushing off on one tangent after another, helping to distract this thread from a very important expose of the willful misrepresentations of design theory by Ruse, a major ID opponent. The best correction is therefore to draw attention back to the original remarks: ______________ >> PROF TORLEY: Here’s another excerpt: [RUSE] "In the ID case, whatever its supporters may say publicly for political purposes – in the USA thanks to the First Amendment you cannot teach religion in state-funded schools – the intention is to bring God into the causal process. ID claims that there are some phenomena (like the bacterial flagellum and the blood-clotting cascade) are so “irreducibly complex,” that to explain them we must invoke an “intelligent designer.” As they admit among themselves – the philosopher-mathematician William Dembski is quite clear on this – the designer is none other than our old friend the God of Christianity." TORLEY: (1) “Bring God into the causal process”?? The notion makes absolutely no sense. According to religious believers, no causal process could exist without God in the first place. God sustains the universe in being; it would not exist, even for a second, without Him. (2) Irreducibly complexity doesn’t come in degrees; either a system is irreducibly complex or it isn’t. Professor Ruse’s phrase “so irreducibly complex” (emphasis mine) betrays a misunderstanding of this point. (3) Professor Dembski’s views on the identity of the intelligent designer form no part of Intelligent Design theory, as contained in ID textbooks. Intelligent Design as such is a scientific project. (4) Professor Dembski’s religious views and motives are no more germane to the scientific merits of Intelligent Design theory than the atheistic views and motives of most neo-Darwinists are of relevance to the scientific merits of neo-Darwinism. >> _______________ That -- though quite diplomatic about what has to be a willful pattern of projecting what one wishes ID were like onto it, in the teeth of correction and protest -- is a very important expose of the ways in which opponents of designt theory typically make up srtrawman versions and knock them over, pretending that design thinkers are higing a destructive theocratic hidden agenda. {Cf the UD weak argument correctives, top right this and every UD page on this.] So, let's not allow ourselves to be dragged down into the fever swamp of distractions, distortions, and denigrations by those who are only too happy to do that as it distracts attention form their need to correct their now habitual willful misrepresentation of design theory. remember, in the past few days, another major public misrepresentation, by Ayala, had to be corrected. For shame! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 11, 2010
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bornagain77 @126,
madbat089; seeing as Stephen Hawking has shown that all the mass that enters a black hole will eventually evaporate out by hawking radiation, thus showing that conservation of mass is not violated,..
But that's dependent on the size of the black hole. A small black hole loses mass over time, a really big one sucks in more mass than it loses. The radiation that's emitted is also not really mass from the black hole as it is one half of a particle pair. One appears to us as radiation, the other disappears into the black hole, where maybe on the other side it is emitted as what they, (the other side people!), might see as their side of a particle pair, i.e., THEIR emitted radiation. I would really like to see a discussion of this between you and some of the Evos who have a much better grounding in physics than I do.Toronto
May 11, 2010
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correction: why should it be any less their theory or imagination than yours?bornagain77
May 11, 2010
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madbat089, but since you fully purchase, on appeal of authority, into these conjectures of these "scientists" which have no empirical support, and you have need to reject the hawking radiation which has such empirical verification, why should it be any less their theory or imagination than theirs? If you want to show me anything, besides wordy storytelling dressed in scientific garb, please show me the direct empirical evidence that I should grant you such speculation anything more than fairy tales.bornagain77
May 11, 2010
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bornagain77: "how exactly is it you propose to “fuel” your conjectures of budding universes at the OTHER end of the black holes? It seems like the ultimate free lunch to me in which you get infinite universes with no price save the unfettered imagination you have used to suggest as such." what makes you think that this is MY theory or MY imagination? Do you want me to send you the scientific papers on those subjects? Then, I assume, you'll want to go through the physics and math presented there and tell the scientists in question why they are wrong? Be my guest! :)madbat089
May 11, 2010
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Upright BiPed: there are turtles on the other end of black holes? cool! that would mean that turtles, not humans, are obviously some sort of teleological endpoint of your creator's wisdom! It is really fasciniating how you folks alternately ridicule astrophysicists as fairyland-lunatics (#113, #120) or revere them as credible authorities (#114, #116), depending on what serves the purpose of the moment. :) kairofocus: "Onlookers, my point was and is that peer review in the sense so vaunted by evolutionary materialist advocates, is demonstrably not a necessary or sufficient condition of breakthrough science. As Einstein so aptly showed." Your argument is pointless, because it simply shows that Einstein published his scientific discoveries under the respected standards of his time. Which was publisher-review. If he would live today, he would publish under the respected standards of our time. Which is blind review by two or three experts in the field. It sounds like you are doubting that Einstein would be able to publish his findings under today's standards? No presentation of source material on the "climate scandal", so this point is going nowhere. And you have yet to justify what should be wrong with a priori materialism, if ID rests upon a priori teleology. I would be delighted to address issues on the merits of the case of ID vs. evolutionary theory. It seems to me I have been trying to do excatly that in each single one of my posts by bringing up and debating specific issues that allow comparison of the merits of the two concepts. I have even taken up examples that YOU brought up, to refute the possible criticism that I am just bringing up points that somehow give me an advantage. At which point I received the bizarre accusation from you that my application of deductive reasoning and the logic of evolutionary theory to concepts that you brought up is somehow "offensive". You want to have a discussion on the merits of ID? Well, by all means, let's have one! Go ahead and pick the example you want to discuss, since you seem unable or unwilling to address any of the ones I brought up.madbat089
May 11, 2010
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madbat089; seeing as Stephen Hawking has shown that all the mass that enters a black hole will eventually evaporate out by hawking radiation, thus showing that conservation of mass is not violated, how exactly is it you propose to "fuel" your conjectures of budding universes at the OTHER end of the black holes? It seems like the ultimate free lunch to me in which you get infinite universes with no price save the unfettered imagination you have used to suggest as such.bornagain77
May 11, 2010
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---madbad 089: "not really: theories on budding universes that include black holes (there are others based on theories of chaotic inflation and fractal structure) address the conditions on the OTHER end of the black hole – not the one we are observing; I thought this was kind of obvious, but it doesn’t seem to be to the present audience," You missed my broader point. I never took seriously even for one moment the proposition that a black hole can cause a universe to "bud." Black holes deal in chaos not order. But even granting such a wild notion arguendo, a black hole, a big bang, or any other alleged "point of origin" must be explained. Even such an irrational notion as infinite multiple universes begs the question because infinite multiple universes need a generator. Points of origin, however they are characterized, do not bring themselves into existence. It's back to the cause effect thing. Materialists abandon causality in order to sustain their atheism. Atheism is not an intellectual position; it is an emotional/spiritual/religious position because it militates against reason's first principles and clings to the notion that something can come from nothing.StephenB
May 11, 2010
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F/N re MB: Onlookers, my point was and is that peer review in the sense so vaunted by evolutionary materialist advocates, is demonstrably not a necessary or sufficient condition of breakthrough science. As Einstein so aptly showed. In other words, it is on canons of logic, strictly irrelevant to the issue of the merits of the case. So, the proper focus for our attention is: the merits of fact and logic, and of inference to best explanation in light of the actual empirical data. Moreover, I also have noted that as the current climate scandal documents, the behind the scenes smoking gun emails show how once a field of science has become ideologised, peer review is gamed to become the gatekeepers of the dominant factions. And, anyone who can look at origins science in recent years and not see that the fields of study have become ideologised along the lines of Lewontinian a priori materialism, and has further become enmeshed into the sort of amoral agenda driven culture war Plato described 2300 years ago in The Laws, Bk X, is either brain dead or is so locked into the partyline himself that he is willfully blind. So, it is time to stop the ideological games, and address the issues on the merits. No prizes for guessing why the evo mat advocates here and elsewhere are ever so eager not to do that. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 11, 2010
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madbat, Aren't there turtles on "the other end" of black holes?Upright BiPed
May 10, 2010
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“It kind of spoils the party for the black-hole-as-innovator advocates doesn’t it?” not really: theories on budding universes that include black holes (there are others based on theories of chaotic inflation and fractal structure) address the conditions on the OTHER end of the black hole - not the one we are observing; I thought this was kind of obvious, but it doesn't seem to be to the present audience.madbat089
May 10, 2010
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Has anyone ever done a study concerning the similarities between atheism and paganism? I'd really like to know. I think that basically atheism is paganism in denial.Phaedros
May 10, 2010
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StephenB, "It kind of spoils the party for the black-hole-as-innovator advocates doesn’t it?" Yes it does.bornagain77
May 10, 2010
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---Born again: "How special was the big bang? –--"Roger Penrose ---Excerpt: "This now tells us how precise the Creator’s aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123. (from the Emperor’s New Mind, Penrose, pp 339-345 – 1989)" Isn't cause and effect a beautiful thing? A finely tuned universe requires a fine-tuner. What a novel idea. ---"contrary to speculation, Black Hole singularities are completely opposite the singularity of the Big Bang in terms of the ordered physics of thermodynamics. i.e. Black Holes are singularities of destruction and disorder rather than singularities of creation and order(R. Penrose, S. Hawking)." It kind of spoils the party for the black-hole-as-innovator advocates doesn't it?StephenB
May 10, 2010
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StephenB @115,
Perhaps the designer, who wasn’t really a designer after all, fine-tuned the universe at the first level to adjust itself at the second level which would, in turn, fine-tune itself at the third level, so that it could adjust itself at the fourth level, prompting it to fine-tune itself at the fifth level (continue on for as long as needed.
I don't understand what you are trying to say here or what you mean by levels of fine-tuning. There is no step-wise quantum characteristic associated with self-biasing as it is basically linear feedback, if that is what you are getting at. My point is that a designer of the universe would probably be better than us and we have already discovered that it is beneficial to design systems that self-adjust to a changing environment. My comment at 114 which hasn't yet appeared, is actually directed to bornagain77 at 112, and should clarify what I am trying to point out.Toronto
May 10, 2010
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Toronto- Why can’t the universe be like that? Why can't I be a flying hippopotamus?Phaedros
May 10, 2010
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StephenB, On black holes: Penrose commenting on the initial entropy setting of the Big Bang (1 in 10^10^123) comments in comparison to Black Holes "But why was the big bang so precisely organized, whereas the big crunch (or the singularities in black holes) would be expected to be totally chaotic? It would appear that this question can be phrased in terms of the behaviour of the WEYL part of the space-time curvature at space-time singularities. What we appear to find is that there is a constraint WEYL = 0 (or something very like this) at initial space-time singularities-but not at final singularities-and this seems to be what confines the Creator's choice to this very tiny region of phase space." How special was the big bang? - Roger Penrose Excerpt: This now tells us how precise the Creator's aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123. (from the Emperor’s New Mind, Penrose, pp 339-345 - 1989) http://www.ws5.com/Penrose/ contrary to speculation, Black Hole singularities are completely opposite the singularity of the Big Bang in terms of the ordered physics of thermodynamics. i.e. Black Holes are singularities of destruction and disorder rather than singularities of creation and order(R. Penrose, S. Hawking). Entropy of the Universe - Hugh Ross - May 2010 Excerpt: Egan and Lineweaver found that supermassive black holes are the largest contributor to the observable universe’s entropy. They showed that these supermassive black holes contribute about 30 times more entropy than what the previous research teams estimated. http://www.reasons.org/entropy-universebornagain77
May 10, 2010
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---Toronto: "If there is an intelligent designer, he’s at least as good as we are at designing self-adjusting systems. ---"That means that if there is a designer, it’s probably likely that the universe is NOT fine-tuned. If there is no designer at all, then for sure the universe is NOT fine-tuned." Why not go all the way? Perhaps the designer, who wasn't really a designer after all, fine-tuned the universe at the first level to adjust itself at the second level which would, in turn, fine-tune itself at the third level, so that it could adjust itself at the fourth level, prompting it to fine-tune itself at the fifth level (continue on for as long as needed.) I think that formulation would be sufficiently impervious to any kind of reasoned interpretation of the evidence to serve your purpose. Think big. Don't just stop at two levels. Once we abandon causality, there is no reason to limit our imagination. Speaking of irrational universes, try this formulation out for size: --madbat089: "There actually are some interesting theories in current astro-physics that black holes might be the origin points of “budding” universes on the other end, and that each one of those universes is likely to have its very own set of physical and chemical rules… Yes, and perhaps these "budding" universes generate little baby universes that grow up to be big strong universes just like daddy. Perhaps these various universe types get together and have universe conventions, wondering if someone, say a designer, actually created the conditions in the black hole that serves as the "origin point" that causes the universes to "bud." Or, perhaps, they form a consensus and decide that they just didn't need any cause at all.StephenB
May 10, 2010
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bornagain77 @112, Then you understand that humans have designed circuits that bias themselves. Some tube guitar amplifiers are designed the same way so that you don't have to be picky about hand-matching output tubes and adjusting any pots yourself. If I want to prove that a circuit I designed works, I turn the power supply up and I measure. Then I turn it down and measure again. If my circuit voltages are constant despite different supply voltages, my design works. Where are the measurements from your experts? You can't slow down the speed of light and make any measurements and you can't try different values of gravity because we don't have that control over the universe. Where is the empirical evidence that allows the experts to conclude they are right about fine-tuning? I do have test evidence for my circuit that says the universal constants for my little transistor's universe can change, yet it will still run fine. I believe a designer of the universe has to be at least as capable as I am.Toronto
May 10, 2010
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vjtorley: "(1) Regarding the eye: ID makes no assumptions about the identity of the Designer, but for the purposes of doing science, I think it is fair to assume that at the very least, the Designer would have wanted to a good job, whatever constraints He/She/It may have been working under. (Of course, the exact nature of those constraints would depend on whether the Designer is a transcendent Creator, a Demiurge or a visiting alien.) So the question we need to ask is: how bad is the eye?" why do we need to ask that question, if we can't even assume that the designer wanted to do a good job, if we don't know anything about the motivations of the designer, since he/she/it remains unidentified? "(a) “I can imagine a better one,” says the village skeptic. But being able to imagine something doesn’t make it possible. I can imagine a winged horse, or a horse that turns into a purple triangle. That doesn’t make them possible." I concur. I don't remember ever disputing this. "(b) “I can build a better one,” says a more sophisticated skeptic. Fine; well, by all means do. Let’s see your better eye and test it out in the lab. Can you engineer one genetically, in a vertebrate? Now that would impress me." So, do I glean from this statement that you would consider the successful genetic engineering of an eye that is structurally superior to the human eye as evidence against ID? "Looking at the “New Scientist” articles on the eye (see https://uncommondescent.com.....the-blind/ ), it is remarkable that they contradict each other. One says, “It looks wrong, but the strange, ‘backwards’ structure of the vertebrate retina actually improves vision.” The other says, “It still creates a blind spot. It would make much more sense to put Muller-like cells in front of the sensors, with the wiring behind.” Well, get your story straight!" No, those statements you just cited don't contradict each other at all, when you take them in context: the strange, ‘backwards’ structure of the vertebrate retina actually improves vision (which refers to existence of Muller-cells), but it still creates a blind spot. It would make much more sense to put Muller-like cells in front of the sensors, with the wiring behind (which by inference would likely lead to the same, improved, vision, minus the blind spot). "For me, the first question I’d want to answer is: starting with the genes of a vertebrate ancestor living 530 million years ago, and taking into account its biological (anatomical and habitat-related) constraints, what could a hypothetical engineer have done better, when designing the vertebrate eye? The second question I’d want to answer is: starting with the first living thing 4 billion years ago, how could a hypothetical engineer have designed its genes better, to make a better vertebrate eye, given the habitat-related and anatomical constraints imposed by the vertebrate lifestyle?" so, both these questions bring us back to the point that you are apparently not disputing the evolutionary idea of a common ancestor? Which components of evolutionary theory are you disputing, then? "One totally unintelligent question that I would NOT attempt to address is: how could a magician have built a better vertebrate eye, while neglecting the other biological constraints that vertebrates live under? That’s just fairyland stuff, not science. “But a transcendent God could wish away those constraints,” say the village skeptics. Yes, He could, but then what you’d be left with wouldn’t be a vertebrate. It would be something else." and why would a transcendent god not want to create a vertebrate, with or without constraints? what would he/she/it want to create, instead? "(2) Regarding the blog by Avise: I don’t care whether you agree or disagree with its argument; what concerns me more is that Avise took the claims of ID seriously enough to examine the question of how the genome could have been better designed. By doing so, he implicitly agreed that the claims of ID are falsifiable, which is precisely my point." Well, my point is that he demonstrably only addressed falsifiable PHILOSOPHICAL claims of ID. "(3) If you don’t like kairosfocus’ style, you are perfectly free not to respond to his posts, but please don’t resort to personal criticisms." Ahh, so I guess kairofocus descent into language like "you and your ilk" and denunciation of my statements as "fever swamp" must be considered somehow distinct from personal criticism hereabouts?madbat089
May 10, 2010
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Toronto, have I never built an electronic circuit? In college I had to build a PID controller, among other things, from scratch, in order to pass a course. As well I was an electronic technician in a chemical factory, as well I was a Instrumentation technician in the building of chemical factories. I had gained much respect as a lead off instrument technician in one particularly large project for making instruments "jump through hoops" that nobody thought they could go through. But this is all beside the point of you ignoring what the experts are saying about the finely-tuned conditions of this particular universe we live in. If I am mad at you, which I really don't feel mad at you any more than I feel slightly annoyed at your willful ignorance, it is in the fact that you presuppose everything to be true for the atheistic position and refuse to listen to these experts, I presented, who know far more than you about the overwhelming evidence for universal, and transcendent, constants that are extremely finely tuned, as well as being dramatically irreducibly complex in their interdependent relations to one another. I can present several more lines of evidence to dramatically strengthen this particular line of inquiry, but what is the point toronto, from all I have seen of your postings no evidence for design matters to you whatsoever. You are more than willing to ignore all evidence and to let your preconceived philosophical bias drive your conclusions in spite of the blatant unreasonableness of your position. do you think me unfair in my observation of your reasoning? Well fine prove me wrong and show me that you can be fair.bornagain77
May 10, 2010
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Dr Torley, The second question I’d want to answer is: starting with the first living thing 4 billion years ago, how could a hypothetical engineer have designed its genes better, to make a better vertebrate eye, given the habitat-related and anatomical constraints imposed by the vertebrate lifestyle? The differences between vertebrate and invertebrate eyes don't seem to stem from constraints of anatomy or habitat (they lived in the same pre-Cambrian oceans, after all) but rather a quirk of development.Nakashima
May 10, 2010
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