Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Fixing a Confusion

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I have often noticed something of a confusion on one of the major points of the Intelligent Design movement – whether or not the design inference is primarily based on the failure of Darwinism and/or mechanism.

This is expressed in a recent thread by a commenter saying, “The arguments for this view [Intelligent Design] are largely based on the improbability of other mechanisms (e.g. evolution) producing the world we observe.” I’m not going to name the commenter because this is a common confusion that a lot of people have.

The reason for this is largely historical. It used to be that the arguments for design were very plain. Biology proceeded according to a holistic plan both in the organism and the environment. This plan indicated a clear teleology – that the organism did things that were *for* something. These organisms exhibited a unity of being. This is evidence of design. It has no reference to probabilities or improbabilities of any mechanism. It is just evidence on its own.

Then, in the 19th century, Darwin suggested that there was another possibility for the reason for this cohesion – natural selection. Unity of plan and teleological design, according to Darwin, could also happen due to selection.

Thus, the original argument is:

X, Y, and Z indicate design

Darwin’s argument is:

X, Y, and Z could also indicate natural selection

So, therefore, we simply show that Darwin is wrong in this assertion. If Darwin is wrong, then the original evidence for design (which was not based on any probability) goes back to being evidence for design. The only reason for probabilities in the modern design argument is because Darwinites have said, “you can get that without design”, so we modeled NotDesign as well, to show that it can’t be done that way.

So, the *only* reason we are talking about probabilities is to answer an objection. The original evidence *remains* the primary evidence that it was based on. Answering the objection simply removes the objection.

As a case in point, CSI is based on the fact that designed things have a holistic unity. Thus, they follow a specification that is simpler than their overall arrangement. CSI is the quest to quantify this point. It does involve a chance rejection region as well, but the main point is that the design must operate on principles simpler than their realization (which provides the reduced Kolmogorov complexity for the specificational complexity).

Comments
johnnyb and Silver Asiatic: you may like to check this out: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/is-artificial-intelligence-taking-over-alphago-version/#comment-622847Dionisio
December 29, 2016
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Silver Asiatic, What about this? http://www.thethirdwayofevolution.com/Dionisio
December 20, 2016
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Dionisio
What would be the highest standard to compare UD with?
I don't know but some kind of science oriented blog would be better, I'd think. At the same time, many members of UD have joined TSZ so it does serve as a parallel, at least for those people. I would guess Coyne's or Myer's blogs would be more appropriate.
Professor John Lennox responded that “atheism is a fairy story for people afraid of the light.”
Very clever. :-)Silver Asiatic
December 20, 2016
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SA @219: That's an interesting observation. Thank you.Dionisio
December 20, 2016
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SA @217:
...maybe we should compare ourselves [UD] with something of a higher caliber?
That's a very interesting suggestion. What would be the highest standard to compare UD with? Or maybe we should not compare it at all? What for? PS. Perhaps we should compare everything against a higher standard, but in some cases that's not easy (or maybe not possible at all?). Here's an off-topic example of comparing ourselves with the highest standard. For quite some time I could not understand why Paul the apostle called himself "the worst sinner" (1 Timothy 1:15) and again "the worst of sinners" (1 Timothy 1:16). That did not make sense to me. It was confusing. If the author of most epistles collected in the NT cannon is the worst sinner, then what about me and the rest of us? Fortunately it is clear now. Paul does not compare himself with other sinners, but against the highest standard: Christ. In that comparison, we all share Paul's title of "worst sinners". Definitely I do. Actually, the closer we get to the Light, our imperfections become more visible. Perhaps that's why we naturally don't like to get close to the light. "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." [John 3:19 (NIV)] In a Telegraph article* Professor Stephen Hawking was quoted saying that "Heaven is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark". At an interview** in Australia that same year Professor John Lennox responded that "atheism is a fairy story for people afraid of the light." Basically both sides depend on faith. (*) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/stephen-hawking/8515639/Stephen-Hawking-heaven-is-a-fairy-story-for-people-afraid-of-the-dark.html (**) http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/spiritofthings/an-evening-with--john-lennox/2928496#transcriptDionisio
December 20, 2016
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Dionisio I think people discuss things on these kinds of blogs not only for learning about hard science but in being part of a community that supports their thinking. People build friendships and attack a common enemy. It gives people a feeling of control and some identity also. Sometimes it's like a game and winning is the goal in the conversation. And I don't mean just personal victories. There may be a chance to promote one's worldview and hope that other people will be converted to it.Silver Asiatic
December 20, 2016
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SA @217: I like you are willing to test this quick comparison. We should test everything and hold what is good. We may blame it on KF @177 for mentioning that site. :) When I read "TSZ" in KF's comment @177 and looked at that site, it did not seem like a blog where biology is discussed as often and deeply as here at UD. Hence the quick comparison started, but with the caveat that has been added in some of the previous comments. The search results might not be a true reflection of the OPs where the searched terms are found. Also, keywords that are a subset of larger keywords could increase the count. But perhaps it gives us an idea of the different approaches to science. And it is an entertaining exercise too. :)Dionisio
December 20, 2016
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Dionisio It's a fascinating project you've taken on comparing statistics between the two sites. With admiration for your research, I'll offer a few contrary thoughts (in the spirit of discussion). First, UD is the premier ID site and ID is the most innovative theory in science today. TSZ is ... nothing? That is, it represents nothing. There's no idea, theory, program or direction of any kind behind it. With that, maybe we should compare ourselves with something of a higher caliber? Secondly, responding here:
I really don’t miss those politely dissenting interlocutors.
I'll agree that many of them just created more noise. They lack sincerity. But I also wish we had more thoughtful opposition, the best of them. Wishful thinking perhaps here.
GP and you were the main players in the “heated” discussion that took place here a short while ago. The discussion was very serious and productive.
Thank you! And credit to GP here - as well as you and others who participated. It certainly gets dull without an exchange of opposing views, so I'm glad we did that.
Their site seems to be open to all views, because I saw a few posts by ID-friendly folks.
Yes, I see Mung there quite a lot. Vjtorley offered some serious commentary, as do a few other IDists. So, there's something attractive about the site. Maybe it's the openness.
The anti-ID posts I saw in that site looked like the hogwash comments they used to post here. If that’s the case, then this site not only didn’t lose anything of value, but this site has gained seriousness after the politely-dissenting interlocutors moved away.
Good point. UD does a good job in upholding a higher standard, for the most part. That is appreciated, even though it means the discussions aren't as lively at times. That's a small price to pay for a more serious atmosphere.Silver Asiatic
December 20, 2016
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KF, Your timely comment @189 has triggered this correcting recount that seems to make TSZ look even worse. Considering that a substantial proportion of the relatively much smaller amount of biology-related OPs in that site were apparently written by serious ID-friendly folks, the fundamental question"where's the beef?" comes to mind. :) Are they seriously interested in science?Dionisio
December 20, 2016
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After seeing so many mistakes in my comparison results, now I doubt the rest of the items that have not been reviewed/corrected yet. Let's review them again.Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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Summary stats update: Keyword ……….. Posted … UD … TSZ morphogen ………. @180 ….. 5 ….. 2 tRNA ……………….. @181 ….. 6 ….. 0 gastrulation ……… @182 ….. 1 ….. 0 epigenetics ………. @183 ….. 22 ….. 5 proteomics ………. @184 ….. 1 ….. 0 mitosis ……………. @185 ….. 1 ….. 0 meiosis …………… @186 ….. 2 ….. 0 centrosome ……… @187 ….. 1 ….. 0 neuroscience ……. @195 ….. 8 ….. 3 ribosome ………… @204 … 9 … 1 genome ………….. @207 … 10 … 3 genomics ………… @210 ….. 19 ….. 3 chromosome ……. @212 ….. 32 ….. 4Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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#193 error correction: Here’s another embarrassing mistake: my comment @193 is not even WRONG. Since several OPs with the term 'chromosome’ explicitly referenced in the title appeared first and they were all from before 2016, I mistakenly didn’t scroll down to look for OPs without explicit references to the given term. Big mistake. Mea culpa. Solar mea culpa. I apologize for such a careless error. This case illustrates a possible consequence of not being careful. Shame on me!Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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Searched both sites for the term “chromosome” this year only: UD: 32 TSZ: 4 Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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Summary stats update: Keyword ……….. Posted … UD … TSZ morphogen ………. @180 ….. 5 ….. 2 tRNA ……………….. @181 ….. 6 ….. 0 gastrulation ……… @182 ….. 1 ….. 0 epigenetics ………. @183 ….. 22 ….. 5 proteomics ………. @184 ….. 1 ….. 0 mitosis ……………. @185 ….. 1 ….. 0 meiosis …………… @186 ….. 2 ….. 0 centrosome ……… @187 ….. 1 ….. 0 chromosome ……. @193 ….. 3 ….. 4 neuroscience ……. @195 ….. 8 ….. 3 ribosome ………… @204 … 9 … 1 genome ………….. @207 … 10 … 3 genomics ………… @210 ….. 19 ….. 3Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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Searched both sites for the term “genomics” this year only: UD: 19 TSZ: 3 Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome! For example in this case the search for 'genomics' may count 'epigenomics' too.Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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#194 error correction: Here's another embarrassing mistake: my comment @194 is not even WRONG. Since several OPs with the term 'genomics’ explicitly referenced in the title appeared first and they were all from before 2016, I mistakenly didn’t scroll down to look for OPs without explicit references to the given term. Big mistake. Mea culpa. Solar mea culpa. I apologize for such a careless error. This case illustrates a possible consequence of not being careful. Shame on me!Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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Summary stats update: Keyword ……….. Posted … UD … TSZ morphogen ………. @180 ….. 5 ….. 2 tRNA ……………….. @181 ….. 6 ….. 0 gastrulation ……… @182 ….. 1 ….. 0 epigenetics ………. @183 ….. 22 ….. 5 proteomics ………. @184 ….. 1 ….. 0 mitosis ……………. @185 ….. 1 ….. 0 meiosis …………… @186 ….. 2 ….. 0 centrosome ……… @187 ….. 1 ….. 0 chromosome ……. @193 ….. 3 ….. 4 genomics ………… @194 ….. 0 ….. 3 (what’s wrong UD?) neuroscience ……. @195 ….. 8 ….. 3 ribosome ……...... @204 … 9 … 1 genome .............. @207 ... 10 ... 3Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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Searched both sites for the term “genome” in 2015-2016: UD: 10 TSZ: 3 Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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@198 closed the comparison exercise, but KF's timely clarification @200 rightly challenged the results posted @197 and compelled me to review it carefully. This is an example of the command to test everything and hold what is good.Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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Summary stats: Keyword ……….. Posted … UD … TSZ morphogen ………. @180 ….. 5 ….. 2 tRNA ……………….. @181 ….. 6 ….. 0 gastrulation ……… @182 ….. 1 ….. 0 epigenetics ………. @183 ….. 22 ….. 5 proteomics ………. @184 ….. 1 ….. 0 mitosis ……………. @185 ….. 1 ….. 0 meiosis …………… @186 ….. 2 ….. 0 centrosome ……… @187 ….. 1 ….. 0 chromosome ……. @193 ….. 3 ….. 4 genomics ………… @194 ….. 0 ….. 3 (what’s wrong UD?) neuroscience ……. @195 ….. 8 ….. 3 ribosome ....... @202 ... 9 ... 1Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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#200-203 follow-up Searched both sites for the term “ribosome” in 2015-2016: UD: 29 TSZ: 1 Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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#202 addendum: UD Guest Post: Dr Eugen S on the second law of thermodynamics (plus . . . ) vs. “evolution” December 3, 2016 Posted by kairosfocus under Back to Basics of ID, biosemiotics, Complex Specified Information, Cybernetics and Mechatronics, Darwinist rhetorical tactics, Entropy, Functionally Specified Complex Information & Organization, ID Foundations, Informatics, thermodynamics and information, UD Guest Posts 13 Comments Our Physicist and Computer Scientist from Russia — and each element of that balance is very relevant — is back, with more. MOAR, in fact. This time, he tackles the “terror-fitted depths” of thermodynamics and biosemiotics. (NB: Those needing a backgrounder may find an old UD post here and a more recent one here, helpful.) […] BTB: Points to ponder as we look at Crick’s understanding of DNA as text, since March 19, 1953 December 2, 2016 Posted by kairosfocus under Back to Basics of ID, Darwinist rhetorical tactics, Functionally Specified Complex Information & Organization, ID Foundations, info in nature & the future of Sci-Tech, Selective Hyperskepticism, thermodynamics and information 5 Comments A few days back, I headlined a clip from Crick’s letter to his son Michael, March 19, 1953: The main text is accessible here (with page scans). Sans diagrams: >>My Dear Michael, Jim Watson and I have probably made a most important discovery. We have built a model for the structure of des-oxy-ribose-nucleic-acid (read it […] Cell’s biggest organelle is tightly packed tubes, not sheets November 5, 2016 Posted by News under Cell biology, Intelligent Design 2 Comments From Laurel Hamer at Science News: Textbook drawings of the cell’s largest organelle might need to be updated based on new images. Super-resolution shots of the endoplasmic reticulum reveal tightly packed tubes where previous pictures showed plain flat sheets, scientists report in the Oct. 28 Science. The finding helps explain how the endoplasmic reticulum, or […] BTB, Q: Where does the FSCO/I concept come from? (Is it reasonable/ credible?) November 5, 2016 Posted by kairosfocus under Back to Basics of ID, Complex Specified Information, Darwinist rhetorical tactics, Functionally Specified Complex Information & Organization, ID Foundations, Intelligent Design 63 Comments A: One of the old sayings of WW II era bomber pilots was that flak gets heaviest over a sensitive target. So, when something as intuitively obvious and easily demonstrated as configuration-based, functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated (explicit or implicit) information — FSCO/I — becomes a focus for objections, that is an implicit sign […] Protozoans with no dedicated stop codons? October 6, 2016 Posted by News under Genomics, News 1 Comment From Karen Zusi at The Scientist: The genetic code—the digital set of instructions often laid out in tidy textbook tables that tells the ribosome how to build a peptide—is identical in most eukaryotes. But as with most rules, there are exceptions. During a recent project on genome rearrangement in ciliates, Mariusz Nowacki, a cell biologist […] Nobel award for design of molecular machines October 5, 2016 Posted by DLH under Biomimicry, Complex Specified Information, Cybernetics and Mechatronics, Design inference, Intelligent Design 9 Comments “three laureates discovered how to use molecules as components of tiny machines that can be controlled to perform specific tasks.” Michael Denton: Life – 4 B years with no change June 25, 2016 Posted by News under Evolution, News, stasis 1 Comment From Michael Denton, author of Evolution: Still a Theory in Crisis As with other taxa-defining novelities, three is no evidence that any fundamental changes have occurred in the basic design of the cell system since its origination. The cell membrane, the basic metabolic paths, the ribosome, the genetic code, etc., are essentially invariant in all […] “Here we report a new cell” April 29, 2016 Posted by Upright BiPed under Information, Intelligent Design, Origin Of Life 13 Comments . Cells are the fundamental units of life. The genome sequence of a cell may be thought of as its operating system. It carries the code that specifies all of the genetic functions of the cell, which in turn determine the cellular chemistry, structure, replication, and other characteristics. Each genome contains instructions for universal functions […] Sean Pitman on evolution of mitochondria March 3, 2016 Posted by News under Cell biology, News, Origin Of Life 180 Comments From Detecting Design: Now, it is true that mitochondrial organelles are quite unique and very interesting. Unlike any other organelle, except for chloroplasts, mitochondria appear to originate only from other mitochondria. They contain some of their own DNA, which is usually, but not always, circular – like circular bacterial DNA (there are also many organisms […]Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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#197 gross error correction: Searched both sites for the term “ribosome” this year only: UD: 9 TSZ: 1 Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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KF, That's a very timely clarification, as usual. Thank you. Actually, my comment @197 is embarrassingly WRONG. Since several OPs with the term 'ribosome' explicitly referenced in the title appeared first and they were all from before 2016, I mistakenly didn't scroll down to look for OPs without explicit references to the given term. Big mistake. Mea culpa. Solar mea culpa. I apologize for such a careless error. Shame on me!Dionisio
December 19, 2016
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D, the ribosome has frequently been discussed in UD in the context of protein synthesis, but mostly in text and in discussion threads, or by way of diagrams. KFkairosfocus
December 18, 2016
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SA, Disclaimer: note that the searches I ran are kind of superficial and could be misleading because they look for keywords within the OPs. Finding a particular keyword within a text does not guarantee that the given text is written seriously. But it was kind of interesting to get a general idea of the biology-related discussion taking place in those blogs. Basically we should not read too much from those results. Maybe it was an entertaining exercise for some of us? :)Dionisio
December 16, 2016
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OK, enough stats entertainment. Back to work. :)Dionisio
December 16, 2016
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Searched both sites for the term “ribosome” this year only: UD: 0 (zero, null, nada, nesuno, nic, nichevó) TSZ: 1 Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 16, 2016
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Summary stats: Keyword ........... Posted ... UD ... TSZ morphogen .......... @180 ..... 5 ..... 2 tRNA .................... @181 ..... 6 ..... 0 gastrulation ......... @182 ..... 1 ..... 0 epigenetics .......... @183 ..... 22 ..... 5 proteomics .......... @184 ..... 1 ..... 0 mitosis ................ @185 ..... 1 ..... 0 meiosis ............... @186 ..... 2 ..... 0 centrosome ......... @187 ..... 1 ..... 0 chromosome ....... @193 ..... 3 ..... 4 genomics ............ @194 ..... 0 ..... 3 (what's wrong UD?) neuroscience ....... @195 ..... 8 ..... 3Dionisio
December 16, 2016
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KF: Searched both sites for the term “neuroscience” this year only: UD: 8 TSZ: 3 Please, note that the search could have been done incorrectly. Additional verification is welcome!Dionisio
December 16, 2016
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