Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Evolution is a Fact!

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Just so we are clear, I am certain that everyone who posts at this site believes evolution is a fact (or fact! fact! fact! as some of our more breathless opponents prefer). 

Whoa Barry!  Are you telling us that Uncommon Descent does not oppose the concept of evolution?  Yes, I am telling you exactly that.

Then what is all the fuss and disagreement about?  I’m glad you asked.  But before I answer that question, let me begin with what the fuss and disagreement are NOT about.

 The fuss and the disagreement are not about whether evolution occurred.  Obviously evolution occurred if by “evolution” one means, “things are different now than they were in the past.”  I don’t know anyone who disagrees with that.  That bare fact is uninteresting, even trivial. 

The important question is not WHETHER things are different now than they were in the past.  They obviously are.  The important question is “WHY are things different now than they were in the past?”  As Phil Johnson has pointed out, the Darwinist starts with the following proposition:  “Given materialist premises, Darwinian evolution or something very much like it simply must be true.”  Therefore, since the Darwinist already “knows” that Darwinian evolution exhausts all of the options open to investigation, he interprets all of the data to – big surprise here – confirm Darwinian evolution.  It is almost literally the case that a Darwinist is incapable of seeing data that does not confirm or tends to disconfirm his theory. 

But the Darwinist’s initial premise is false even on materialist terms.  Even uber-materialist Richard Dawkins admits that the complexity and diversity of life might be the result of the actions of super-intelligent aliens.  This explanation requires no supernatural act to have occurred and violates no precept either of philosophical or methodological materialism.

Therefore, the fuss and the disagreement is about whether “intelligent cause” must be ruled out from the beginning as a possible causal factor for why things are different now than they were in the past.  It is exactly like two police detectives standing over the body of a person whose head has been bashed in by a blunt object and having the following conversation:

Columbo:  “I am a materialist.  Therefore, given my premises I know for a certain fact that this person’s death must have been caused by blind, unguided natural forces.  Therefore, I already know that all of the data I find will support that conclusion.  Moreover, the certain knowledge I have before I ever even look at the data means I will never even have to consider the possibility that this person’s death was caused by the acts of an intelligent agent, and I can safely ignore any data that might tend to disprove my starting point or confirm an “intelligent agent” theory.  My theory is that a rock fell from above and hit him in the head.  Probably the rock was dislodged from the side of a hill by the wind or rain and rolled down the hill and smacked him.  Bad luck all around.  By the way, I call the rolling rock theory a “theory” only for form’s sake.  We both know it is a fact! fact! fact!  Bad luck all around.  Case closed.”

Holmes:  “I am not going to make up my mind in advance about whether this death resulted from blind, unguided and exceedingly bad luck or whether it is the result of the acts of an intelligent agent, that is to say, murder.  By the way, I am willing to assume materialist premises too, at least on a methodological basis, but you are wrong to say that assumption precludes the act of an intelligent agent.  All murderers of whom I am aware have been quite human.  I understand your rolling rock theory, and I just don’t think it is supported by the data.  First of all, the body is almost at the top of the hill, so it is unlikely that even if a rock were dislodged by the wind and rain it could have gathered enough momentum to do the work you ascribe to it.  Also, I note that there are no bloody rocks anywhere around the body.  Finally, I note the presence of a bloody club near the body, and on that club are the fingerprints of the dead person’s worst enemy who swore to kill him only two days ago.  I conclude that the “accident theory” while not impossible from a mathematical or logical perspective is not the most likely explanation.  This scene bears indicia of design.  I conclude the victim was murdered.”

 Columbo:  “Fundamentalist cretin!”

If the case were to proceed to trial, we might also have this:

Judge Jones:  “I understand that Holmes went to Sunday School when  he was  a child.  Therefore, his theory must be disregarded as the musings of a religious fanatic.  Case dismissed.  Bailiff, set the defendant free!”

Comments
Evolution is perfectly capable of filling the roll of designer. It is the “intelligent” part of your theory which it conflicts with.
how can anything be 'designed' without intelligence??? but evolution is the intelligent designer to evolutionists, when they want it to be...
'"We found this mysterious unknown structure in the sponge, and it is clear that evolution was able to take this entire structure, and, with small modifications, direct its use toward a new function," said Kosik. "Evolution can take these 'off the shelf' components and put them together in new and interesting ways."'
link it takes intelligence to 'direct' something...tsmith
September 22, 2009
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Joseph [from 43] Thanks. I skipped to the relevant part. I found something odd though. Under the bit that explains what would falsify ID I found this: "Observe that living organisms arise from non-living matter via a mixture of commonly-found-in-nature chemicals. Observe that while some systems “appear” to be irreducibly complex it can be demonstrated that they can indeed arise via purely stochastic processes such as culled genetic accidents." Has irreducible complexity been thoroughly established? Because if it hasn't, it seems to me that this falsification condition has been met. For the sake of completion it also says: " Also demonstrate that the apparent command & control can also be explained by endothermic and/or exothermic reactions." But I'm not sure I follow it. Any ideas?Ritchie
September 22, 2009
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Moseph, ------"vjtorley Citation please. I’m not here to educate you on history. Crack open a book maybe?" Didn't you ask for citations in a comment above to Joseph? Is Joseph here to educate you but you're not here to educate anyone else? Crack open a mind maybe?Clive Hayden
September 22, 2009
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#73 That's really interesting. You have gone beyond the original design hypothesis to one that has some substance. Something on the lines of: There is a designer with undetermined powers who has the objective of preserving DNA whereever it is found. Now we can begin to ask questions such as why did the designer create DNA that destroyed other DNA, from viruses through parasites to predators? There are still some very awkward questions because you have said so little about the designer. Following Sober - if we know nothing about the designers powers than we know nothing about the probability of the designer creating life. It might be even less probable than your estimate of the natural selection creating life.Mark Frank
September 22, 2009
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CannuckianYankee, #38
Second: evolution does not work without an intervening designer. Fitness scenarios are counterproductive to the theory, because they imply a target, which implies purpose, which implies design.
Evolution is perfectly capable of filling the roll of designer. It is the "intelligent" part of your theory which it conflicts with.camanintx
September 22, 2009
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Mark Frank (#71) Thank you for your post. Regarding DNA, you write:
Something can only be optimal relative to some objective. So you are already assuming an objective for the designer. What is it?
Actually, Richard Dawkins addressed the very point you raised in his celebrated article, "God's Utility Function." His answer: DNA survival. When I first read his article, I found it intriguing that Dawkins, an atheist, should have felt the need to invoke a theological metaphor in order to explain his vision of how nature works. However, I propose to take him at his word. Perhaps DNA was chosen by a Designer simply because it survives (replicates) better than other candidate molecules, and with a higher degree of fidelity. This ties in well with the comment by Dr. Cornelius Hunter which I cited in my post #65:
As had been noticed, the [DNA] code’s arrangement reduces the effects of mutations and reading errors. They often result in no change to the amino acid sequence, or merely a slight change as a similar amino acid is used in place of the original amino acid. And the degree of this safeguarding is now better understood. As one research study found, the DNA code is “one in a million” in terms of efficiency in minimizing these effects.
These are just a few musings, as I'm not a biologist.vjtorley
September 22, 2009
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Joseph, Do you agree with vjtorley's example of something organic (and living!) that is designed and of something living that is not designed? I don't see how you can so agree as you've just claimed that all life was designed. So when you two come to some sort of agreement perhaps we can continue the debate? As it's not much of a debate if your side takes both sides in the argument.Moseph
September 22, 2009
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#64 Vjtorley You continue to be one of the most polite and logical of the UD supporters on this forum. I don't have time to respond in detail but two points worth raising. I would therefore expect scientists to discover that DNA is biologically optimal, subject to several constraints. Something can only be optimal relative to some objective. So you are already assuming an objective for the designer. What is it? I don't agree that my second statement makes SETI useless. Imagine that SETI comes across a strange signal which they cannot account for by any known natural process. How will they determine if it might be the result of an alien intelligence? Well some good steps might be: * Does it come from a source which might contain a planet. * Is there any conceivable mechanism by which an intelligence might have generated the signal? * Does it contain something which might be interpreted as an attempt to communicate? etc If the SETI people just stop at - "this is weird maybe it is the result of an undefined intelligence of undefined powers" then they have made no real progress. If they can start to answer these questions in some small fashion then they have evidence of something.Mark Frank
September 22, 2009
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vjtorley
Citation please.
I'm not here to educate you on history. Crack open a book maybe?
In ordinary parlance, “design” is an intentional verb. Saying that evolution designed me as just as silly as saying that the laws of physics did.
And yet it's true. So how silly is that? If evolution did not design you, then what did please?Moseph
September 22, 2009
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Joseph
My statement was not related solely to biology.
Yet my question clearly was.
Just because you can misrepresent what I post doesn’t mean anything.
People can read the thread themselves and make up their minds.
Yes you are a troll and a liar.
I know what I am, but what are you?
So I will leave you with that- I don’t have time to deal with liars and losers.
No, you've got a blog to get back to. I understand.Moseph
September 22, 2009
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Moseph (#52): You wrote:
Originally people thought that gods living behind clouds on the top of mountains made everything happen.
Citation please.
Evolution is the designer.
In ordinary parlance, "design" is an intentional verb. Saying that evolution designed me as just as silly as saying that the laws of physics did.vjtorley
September 22, 2009
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Moseph (#63) You asked for:
One example of something that is designed and something that is not, in biology please.
You may be interested to know that Professor Behe has answered your question in his recent bookThe Edge of Evolution. To quote from a recent review :
Behe spends some time looking at anti-freeze in a fish (pp. 77–81). He acknowledges that the 'evolutionary' (mutations + selection) scenario painted is feasible. However, he points out that the protein fragments that comprise the antifreeze are quite non-specific, with no secondary structure and have no interaction with other proteins. All they have to do is interact with water molecules to inhibit crystallization. They are of different lengths, from different genes, and can be regarded as the accumulation of 'genetic debris' that happens to be adaptive. He likens it to various pieces of wood, bark and leaves creating a dam in a creek: it can be done incrementally, and almost anything will do to add to the dam. This is the sort of thing that random changes can achieve. As Behe says, 'Rare examples such as the Antarctic fish set Darwinian pulses racing. But to more sceptical observers, they underscore the limits of random mutation rather than its potential.' Behe quotes one group of anti-freeze researchers: 'A number of dissimilar proteins have adapted to the task of binding ice. This is atypical of protein evolution' (p. 82).
If you continue reading the same review , you'll find out why Professor Behe still considers the cilium and the bacterial flagellum to have been designed:
Behe revisits the cilium (pp. 84–96), discussed in Darwin’s Black Box as an example of irreducible complexity — a biological feature that could not be built by 'numerous successive slight modifications' (Darwin) because it has some 200 different protein components. Not only the components have to be explained, many of which are peculiar to the cilium, but also their precision assembly. Exciting discoveries since DBB make the problem even worse for Darwinian naturalism, particularly the realisation that intra-flagellar transport (IFT) occurs (transport of proteins within the flagellum itself) and is necessary for cilium functionality. IFT entails the active movement of protein components, by linear motors called kinesins 'walking' along microtubules, for repair of the cilium tip, so that each cilium is continuously rebuilt. Mutations that break IFT result in non-viability because cilia are necessary for such things as embryo development and eye and kidney function. Behe says, 'IFT exponentially increases the difficulty of explaining the irreducibly complex cilium' (p. 94). He also revisits the bacterial flagellum, which is comprised of about three dozen proteins ( figure 1 ). Much more has also been discovered about this, and it is also much more complex than previously envisaged (pp. 97ff). Behe gives a sketch of the marvellous control systems that are involved in achieving a 'just-in-time' organisation of construction of the various parts. It is precision engineering that no engineer would attribute to random changes (i.e. evolution).
Does that answer your original question? You also write:
So, now we’ve established that every living thing is designed can we talk about Cancer? Hiv? Age related blindness?
A brief answer: the occurrence of intelligently designed patterns in nature does not by itself establish the existence of one and only one Designer.vjtorley
September 22, 2009
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Moseph:
See, the thing is you already admitted to me that some things are and some things are not designed.
My statement was not related solely to biology. Just because you can misrepresent what I post doesn't mean anything.
Putting aside the fact for a moment that I asked for two biological organisms then how did Urea come about?
You have serious issues. You asked about ORGANIC:
Can you give me an example of something organic that was designed and something organic that was not?
Yes you are a troll and a liar. So I will leave you with that- I don't have time to deal with liars and losers.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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Mark Frank (#40) Thank you for your post. You write:
Proposing a solution which explains exactly what we observe and nothing else and has undefined powers and motives is to make no progress. It doesn’t really matter whether it is supernatural or a very advanced civilisation of which we know nothing.
Actually, I would agree with your first statement. For precisely that reason, I think it's important for ID theorists to ascertain why the Designer of life would have used DNA and not some other molecule as the genetic basis of heredity. That at least gives us a motive, and rules out contradictory observations (e.g. life based on some other molecule). I would therefore expect scientists to discover that DNA is biologically optimal, subject to several constraints. This prediction appears to have been largely borne out. Francis Crick once called DNA a "frozen accident," in keeping with the prevailing materialist dogma that it arose as a result of undirected natural processes. But as Dr. Cornelius Hunter points out in his blog:
We now understand that the DNA code is anything but arbitrary and the evolutionary prediction has been roundly falsified. As had been noticed, the code’s arrangement reduces the effects of mutations and reading errors. They often result in no change to the amino acid sequence, or merely a slight change as a similar amino acid is used in place of the original amino acid. And the degree of this safeguarding is now better understood. As one research study found, the DNA code is “one in a million” in terms of efficiency in minimizing these effects. [4] This structure found within the DNA code was “unexpected and still cry out for explanation,” evolutionists admit. [5] ..... References 4. S. J. Freeland, L. D. Hurst, “The genetic code is one in a million,” Journal of Molecular Evolution 47 (1998): 238-248. 5. K. Vetsigian, C. Woese, N. Goldenfeld, “Collective evolution and the genetic code,” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 103 (2006): 10696-10701.
Of course, even without knowing the specific motive of the Designer, one can still make an overwhelmingly strong case for the design of DNA, as Alex Williams' excellent article, Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism , convincingly shows (see here for an update). But if you want to do proper science with the theory of Intelligent Design, you need some sort of working hypothesis as to why the Designer chose to work with that particular molecule (DNA). I'm all for science trying to understand the mind of God, as far as it possibly can. As regards your second statement: it entails the very strong (and to my mind undesirable) consequence that SETI is also a fruitless quest, unless: (i) the aliens are only slightly more advanced than we are, which would then possibly enable us to identify their design methodology, or (ii) the aliens deign to explain their M.O. to us technologically backward Earthlings.vjtorley
September 22, 2009
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Joseph
Stonehenge, the moai, the pyramids, the loist is almost endless.
Way to change the subject. Get back to biology and the question I actually asked? One example of something that is designed and something that is not, in biology please. Or did you forget already? See, the thing is you already admitted to me that some things are and some things are not designed. But when asked you change the subject. So I infer that your position is based on belief, not evidence. As such, it belongs in the faith category. Hopefully you've realized this now.
And science sez only life begets life.
"Science" says that does it? Odd how when "science" says something you like you believe it but when "science" says something that goes against your beliefs all of a sudden it's unsupported. Odd that.
Urea not designed, living organisms designed.
Is that it? Urea not designed? Living organisms designed? Putting aside the fact for a moment that I asked for two biological organisms then how did Urea come about? Do you think the designer left that to chance? How could that be if Urea was part of the design of the organisms. So, to be clear, I originally asked you if you agreed that some biological organisms were designed and some where not. You agreed. I then asked you for an example of each type and you come back with "all life was designed" and "A chemical was not designed". Did you not understand the question originally? So, now we've established that every living thing is designed can we talk about Cancer? Hiv? Age related blindness? When did your designer design HIV Joseph?Moseph
September 22, 2009
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IOW there was this dying organism, and it managed to keep part of its genome viable enough until a suitable host came along and scarfed down on it. The dead organism’s remnants then took over the new host’s genetic machinery.
And just how have you determined all this?
It's as likely as anything you have. Heck by your "standards" imagination is science.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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Moseph:
As yet nothing has been found to require agency involvement.
Stonehenge, the moai, the pyramids, the loist is almost endless. Now there is living organisms. And science sez only life begets life.
Can you give me an example of something organic that was designed and something organic that was not?
Urea not designed, living organisms designed. That said you have failed to tell us how it was determined the design is illusory. You ignorantly throw out "evolution" as if that is supposed to solve something.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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Joseph,
IOW there was this dying organism, and it managed to keep part of its genome viable enough until a suitable host came along and scarfed down on it. The dead organism’s remnants then took over the new host’s genetic machinery.
And just how have you determined all this? Did you have a vision sitting under your cardboard pyramid? Armchair science indeed.Moseph
September 22, 2009
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Joseph
Just because some things were found to not require agancy involvement doesn’t mean everything is like that.
No, you've got it backwards. As yet nothing has been found to require agency involvement. You act as if your case has been proven already. It has not. If it indeed has been, as you imply, then give me an example of such a designed and not-designed organic entity. I ask once again: Can you give me an example of something organic that was designed and something organic that was not? It's a very simple request. You are making the claim, not I. You have already stated that some organic entities are designed and some are not. So you should be able to back it up by giving an example of each. As you have not been able to so far I think it's obvious to all that you will not be able to.
IOW you don’t even understand the debate.
And you don't seem to understand that when you make a claim you need to back it up. Only a few posts up I asked you the same question and you respond with "can you?". Again, that tactic fails outside the playground. So, Joseph, how will you go about investigating your hypothesis that HIV is like a prion- leftovers from a once living organism with a full genome? Do tell. To remind everybody I asked
But you’d agree that not every instance of apparent design is in fact an example of explicit design right?
You answered
True. However every instance of apparent design needs to be investigated to see what caused it.
One example of each please or retract your claim. ........ is explicitly designed ........ is apparently designed.Moseph
September 22, 2009
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The link: Joseph Le Conte, Evolution and its Relation to Religious Thought.Vladimir Krondan
September 22, 2009
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Hey didn't you know that evolution has been a fact since at least 1888? Here is Joseph Le Conte, 1888...
From what has preceded, the reader will perceive that we regard the law of evolution as thoroughly established. In its most general sense, i. e., as a law of continuity, it is a necessary condition of rational thought. In this sense it is naught else than the universal law of necessary causation applied to forms instead of phenomena. It is not only as certain as - it is far more certain than--the law of gravitation, for it is not a contingent, but a necessary truth like the axioms of geometry. It is only necessary to conceive it clearly, to accept it unhesitatingly. The consensus of scientific and philosophical opinion is already well-nigh, if not wholly complete. If there are still lingering cases of dissent among thinking men, it is only because such do not yet conceive it clearly--they confound it with some special form of explanation of evolution which they, perhaps justly, think not yet fully established. We have sometimes in the preceding pages used the words evolutionist or derivationist; they ought not to be used any longer. The day is past when evolution might be regarded as a school of thought. We might as well talk of gravitationist as of evolutionist.
Vladimir Krondan
September 22, 2009
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Moseph, The paper you linked to- My point is that ERVs are the remnants of what looks loke ERVs in our genome. IOW there was this dying organism, and it managed to keep part of its genome viable enough until a suitable host came along and scarfed down on it. The dead organism's remnants then took over the new host's genetic machinery. This concept is easier to see than descent with modification- and it has support with prions.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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ellazim:
Prions are remnants from what?
Proteins from a dead animal. That is what happens- we feed live animals pyreed scraps of dead animals. The proteins don't break down all the way, get into the living organisms blood and from there start matching up with their "sister" proteins and cause them to misfold.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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Moseph:
Your usage of the word “also” implys that ID proponents are doing the same. They are not.
How do you know?
They have already. They determined “evolution” was responsible.
What a truly ignorant response. Too bad no one has done such a thing.
Your tactic is only of use in the school ground.
Look in a mirror. And yes I respond to nonsense so that it can be exposed as such. Now if you want to get personal I am more than willing.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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Moseph: M
Originally people thought that gods living behind clouds on the top of mountains made everything happen. Over time those explanations were removed, one by one. They were replaced with rational explanations that did not depend on gods or deamons. Extrapolate this process until you reach the point we’re discussing.
That doesn't answer the question. Just because some things were found to not require agancy involvement doesn't mean everything is like that.
It’s not that design is illusory, it’s that it was designed by evolution. Evolution is the designer.
Citation please- also "evolution" isn't being debated. IOW you don't even understand the debate. Prions: ^ Prusiner, SB (1982). "Novel proteinaceous infectious particles cause scrapie". Science 216 (4542): 136–144. doi:10.1126/science.278.5336.245. PMID 6801762. Alper T, Cramp W, Haig D, Clarke M (1967). "Does the agent of scrapie replicate without nucleic acid?". Nature 214 (5090): 764–6. doi:10.1038/214764a0. PMID 4963878. http://www.pnas.org/content/95/23/13363
When was the designer last active then? Do you have any actual evidence for any time period when the designer was active at all?
That is what science is for- to help us figure that out.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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Joseph
IOW how was it determined that living organisms arose via blind watchmaker-type processes?
Originally people thought that gods living behind clouds on the top of mountains made everything happen. Over time those explanations were removed, one by one. They were replaced with rational explanations that did not depend on gods or deamons. Extrapolate this process until you reach the point we're discussing.
How was it determined the design is illusory?
It's not that design is illusory, it's that it was designed by evolution. Evolution is the designer.
Prions are leftovers from a once viable organism. Remnants- you do understand the word?
Citation please.
Viruses are remnants- pices of genome still decaying that picked up a new host and became selfish genes.
Citation please.
The designer need not be active now- I don’t see any evidence that the designer is active now.
When was the designer last active then? Do you have any actual evidence for any time period when the designer was active at all?Moseph
September 22, 2009
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Fourth: Darwinian theory started as a counter to design inferences.
Is that a fact? As far as I understand, Darwin just did what Copernicus, Galileo, Newton and many others had done before him: Interpreting evidence in a scientific context instead of relying on ancient myths. Further, unless I‘ve got it all wrong: The design inference was invented to counter “Darwinian theory.” Before the invention of Intelligent Design the only alternative was creationism, pure, undiluted and still adored in certain religious circles.
If design inferences cannot be tested, why then do we have a Darwinian theory that attempts to counter them?
To me, it makes more sense to ask "Why do we have a movement to propagate ID instead of a scientific project of investigating ID?"Cabal
September 22, 2009
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Prions are remnants from what? How are mis-folded proteins remnants? Viruses are decaying pieces of genome? Uh . . . . . . so the new strains of flu are just . . . . further decayed remnants? I am so confused!ellazimm
September 22, 2009
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Joseph
Shouldn’t evolutionists also be doing that?
Your usage of the word "also" implys that ID proponents are doing the same. They are not.
Yes they should or else they can’t just assert “apparent design”.
They have already. They determined "evolution" was responsible.
How can we tell “apparent design” from “real design”? Do you guys flip a coin? Or do you say well that looks designed but it ain’t?
Way to dodge the question. Your tactic is only of use in the school ground.
However if you want to pay me I will put together such a report. $100,000 may cover the expenses.
It's nice that you admit that your first answer was pulled from nowhere rational. You made a claim then when asked where you got that information from you put a price on finding that information. Don't you think there is a gap in your logic somewhere? And anyway, if you want $100,000 then you'd better write a better proposal then that!
However I do think my explanation is viable.
This
That HIV is like a prion- leftovers from a once living organism with a full genome.
Does not rise to the level of "explanation". That would be because it explains nothing.
Do you have any evidence for the origin of HIV/ SIV?
Evidence? Would that be actual evidence or the sort of evidence you produce when asked? There is much work done on the origin of HIV/SIV http://www.pnas.org/content/104/15/6095.full Read that paper. Then get back to me with why it's wrong.
As for nonsense- just look at your posts.
Then what does that make you, a person who responds to nonsense?Moseph
September 22, 2009
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Moseph:
Great, now we’re getting somewhere. Presumably you can give me an example of a biological entity that is A) Designed B) Not-Designed
Can you? IOW how was it determined that living organisms arose via blind watchmaker-type processes? Be specific. How was it determined the design is illusory?
I’m afraid I simply don’t understand what you mean. HIV is very unlike a prion. And what do you mean by “once living organism with a full genome”? Are there organisms out there without full genomes?
Prions are leftovers from a once viable organism. Remnants- you do understand the word? Viruses are remnants- pices of genome still decaying that picked up a new host and became selfish genes.
You don’t see any evidence for what? The designer being active now?
The designer need not be active now- I don't see any evidence that the designer is active now.Joseph
September 22, 2009
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