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Eric Harris Was Just Paying Attention

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Thank you to all of the materialists (and there were several) who rose to the challenge of my last post [Materialists: [crickets]]. We will continue the discussion we began there in this thread.

Before I continue, please allow me to clear up some confusion. Several of my interlocutors seem to believe that the purpose of my post is to refute metaphysical naturalism. (See here for instance) It is not. Please look again at the very first line of the paragraph I quoted: “Let us assume for the sake of argument that metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality.”

Please read that line again carefully. I am NOT arguing that metaphysical naturalism is false (though I believe it is; that is an argument for another day). I simply wish to explore the logical consequences of whole-heartedly embracing metaphysical naturalism. I thought this was clear, but apparently it was not, so I will repeat my argument step by step:

Step 1: What metaphysical naturalism asserts

Metaphysical naturalism asserts that nothing exists but matter, space and energy, and therefore every phenomenon is merely the product of particles in motion.

Step 2: Consequences of naturalism vis-à-vis, the “big questions”

Certain consequences with respect to God, ethics and meaning follow inexorably if metaphysical naturalism is a true account of reality. Perhaps Will Provine summed these up best:

1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.

Evolution: Free Will and Punishment and Meaning in Life, Second Annual Darwin Day Celebration Keynote Address, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, February 12, 1998 (abstract)

Dawkins agrees:

The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life, 133.

Step 3: Why Not Act Accordingly?

What if a person were able to act based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental understanding of the consequences outlined above? If that person had the courage not to be overwhelmed by the utter meaningless of existence, he would be transformed. He would be bold, self-confident, assertive, uninhibited, and unrestrained. He would consider empathy to be nothing but weak-kneed sentimentality. To him others would not be ends; they would be objects to be exploited for his own gratification. He would not mind being called cruel, because he would know that “cruelty” is an empty category, the product of mere sentiment. Is the lion being cruel to the gazelle? No, he is merely doing what lions naturally do to gazelles.

In my original argument I suggested this person would be a psychopath. That is not quite accurate. A psychopath, by definition, lacks empathy. Our Übermensch, however, might well have the capacity for empathy which he suppresses. It is more accurate, therefore, to say that the actions of the person who acts based on a clear-eyed and unsentimental acceptance of naturalism would be indistinguishable from the actions of a psychopath.

Step 4:

Finally, I raised the issue I would like to explore:

Why should our Übermensch refrain from hurting other people to achieve his selfish desires.

Mark Frank takes a stab at answering the question:

Do you mean “why should I?” in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Or do you mean “why should I” in the sense of “what is there in it for me?” In this case the pay-offs include:

* The intense satisfaction of having done the right thing.
* The congratulations of those that will approve of your action
* The firm example you will set for others to treat you the same way
* If done repeatedly an excellent basis for persuading others to do what you think it is right for them to do etc…

Thank you Mark. I believe your answer is about as good an answer as a naturalist can give. Let’s explore it and find out why it is wholly unsatisfactory as a logical matter.

Do you mean ‘why should I?’ in the sense of why is it right for me to do it? If so, that is tautology, of course it is right to do what is right.

Readers, notice the equivocation at the base of Mark’s argument. It is always “right” to do what is “right” is indeed a tautology if the word “right” is used in the same sense in both instances. But it is not. Remember, Mark is a metaphysical naturalist. The word “right” has no objective meaning for the metaphysical naturalist. It is purely subjective. For the metaphysical naturalist the good is the desirable and the desirable is that which he actually desires. In other words, Mark has no warrant to use the word “right” as if it had an objective meaning. Yet that is exactly what he does.

To see this, let us re-write Mark’s sentence using different words for the two senses of the word “right” that he uses: “of course, it is right [i.e., it conforms to a code of objective morality] to do what is right [i.e., that which I subjectively prefer].” Written this way, amplifying the inconsistent ways in which Mark uses the word “right,” exposes the fallacy.

Now let us turn to the second part of Mark’s argument. “What’s in it for me?” I want to thank Mark for unintentionally making my point for me. He says our Übermensch might refrain from hurting another person in order to achieve his selfish ends because he has engaged in a cost/benefit analysis. Mark points to certain “benefits” of refraining from hurting another person to achieve selfish ends. Presumably, the point of Mark’s argument is that “what’s in it for me” (i.e., the benefits received from not hurting the other person) outweighs the cost (failing to achieve a selfish end).

But of course Mark’s argument fails, because the benefits he suggests may not outweigh the cost. It depends on what selfish end the Übermensch wishes to achieve and how badly he wants it. Indeed, some of the so-called benefits are not really benefits at all to our Übermensch. Consider the first one: the intense satisfaction of having done the right thing. Here again Mark is employing a concept he has no right to employ. Our Übermensch understands that “the right thing” is a meaningless concept. Why should our Übermensch feel satisfaction at having conformed his behavior to a non-existent standard? That is the whole point of the exercise after all. Once we understand that there really is no such thing as “the right thing” why should we not do exactly as we please even if it hurts another person? Mark has no answer, because there is no answer.

Eric Harris was paying attention when someone taught him Nietzsche. He believed he was an Übermensch. He believed he was a lion and the other students at his school gazelles. On what grounds can a metaphysical naturalist say “Eric Harris was wrong”? Is it not true that the most a metaphysical naturalist can say is “I personally disagree with what he did and would not do it myself”?

A final note:
Many of the comments at the other thread concerned whether “objective morality” exists. I believe that it does, and those comments are very interesting. However, whether objective morality exists has no application in this thread. Again, the question I want to explore in this thread is “Why shouldn’t a metaphysical naturalist do exactly what he pleases even if it hurts another person?”

Comments
: Atheistic Moral Platonism: Moral Values Simply Exist Plato thought that the Good just exists on its own as a sort of self-existent Idea. ... So some atheists might say that moral values like justice, mercy, love and so on just exist without any foundation. We can call this view atheistic moral platonism. It holds that objective moral values exist but are not grounded in God. First, atheistic moral platonism seems unintelligible. What does it means to say, for example, that the moral value justice just exists? It is hard to make sense of this. It's easy to understand what it means to say that some person is just, but it's bewildering when someone says that in the absence of any people justice itself exists. Moral values seem to be properties of persons, and it's hard to understand how justice can exist as an abstraction. Second, this view provides no basis for moral duties. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that moral values like justice, loyalty, mercy, forbearance, and the like just exist. How does that result in any moral obligations for me? Why would I have a moral duty to be, say, merciful? Who or what lays such an obligation on me? Notice that on this view moral vices like greed, hatred, lethargy, and selfishness also presumably exist on their own as abstractions. So why are we obligated to align our lives with one set of these abstractly existing objects rather than any other? Atheistic moral platonism, lacking a moral lawgiver, has no grounds for moral obligation. Third, it's fantastically improbable that the blind evolutionary process should spit forth precisely that sort of creatures who correspond to the abstractly existing realm of moral values. This seems to be an utterly incredible coincidence when you think about it. It's almost as if the moral realm knew that we were coming. It's far more plausible, as Sorley contended, to think that both the natural realm and the moral realm are under the authority of a God who gave us both the laws of nature and the moral law than to think that these two independent realms just happened to mesh. - On GuardMung
July 29, 2014
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SA: Reppert put it well, in a way I amplify from direct knowledge of how gates, circuits and processors work:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
Trying to conflate computation and self-aware rational contemplation is like trying to get North by heading due West. KFkairosfocus
July 28, 2014
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Many philosophers have thought that morality provides a good argument for God's existence. One of the finest was William Sorley, who was a professor of moral philosophy at Cambridge University. In his Moral Values and the Idea of God (1918) Sorley argues that the best hope for a rational, unified view of reality is to postulate God as the ground of both the natural and moral orders. Sorley maintains that there is an objective moral order, which is as real and independent of us as is the natural order of things. ... Just as we assume the reality of the world of objects on the basis of our sense experience, so we assume the reality of the moral order on the basis of our moral experience. In Sorley's view both the natural order and the moral order are part of reality. The question then, is: What worldview can combine these two orders into the most coherent explanatory form? - On Guard, pp 127-128Mung
July 28, 2014
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And in the case of lab coat clad evo mat, it is self referentially incoherent and grossly factually inadequate starting with accounting for the gap between blind, GIGO-limited computation and self-aware, rational contemplation. Which last is fact no 1 of our existence, and a self-evident truth.
I think what happens is that while the gap is self-evident, some attempt to decrease the size of the gap and claim it could be bridged by certain beneficial mutations. It's difficult to measure the size of the gap. In my opinion, it can't be measured because it compares a finite with an infinite. It's two different orders of being.
What does that tell us about what is going on when this is not followed up to examine the implications of how a ball and disk integrator, or a boolean gate based processor or a neural summing gate network of processor elements work in light of blind cause-effect chains and the GOGO principle?
It tells me that a lot of academicians must have a reason that drives them to avoid the implications of materialism. There must be some kind of barrier that prevents them from seeing the most common sense realities. They will say the same about religionists but the answers are quite different (people have spiritual experiences/awakenings and religious belief is universal).Silver Asiatic
July 28, 2014
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PPS: On Theistic proofs, I suggest that there are no systems of logical reasoning that are immune to disputes and challenges, starting with mathematics. As for science,t eh matter is notorious. History, moreso, etc. So, my conclusion is that we need to recognise degrees of reasonable warrant suitable to relevant types of cases, and to recognise that we are finite and fallible. So, the issue is at length, reasonable faith. On which basis, we then approach comparative difficulties analysis, and the principle of the rope vs the chain. A chain snaps if one link fails, but a rope twines together short weak fibres so that they grip one another to gain length and strength. Strands are then counter-twisted together or braided together to form a rope as a whole, which is immensely long and strong, well beyond the length and strength of individual fibres. Just so, a reasonable position is based on interacting fibres of evidence that have coherence and are cumulatively adequate for purpose. In this case, the comparative difficulties principle also points out the cumulative difficulties of rejecting all the diverse fibres of evidence, inference and reasoning in a given case: you have implicitly erected a different position, which is subject to its own difficulties. And in the case of lab coat clad evo mat, it is self referentially incoherent and grossly factually inadequate starting with accounting for the gap between blind, GIGO-limited computation and self-aware, rational contemplation. Which last is fact no 1 of our existence, and a self-evident truth. (Recall on this the dispute games over rocks having no dreams? What does that tell us about what is going on when this is not followed up to examine the implications of how a ball and disk integrator, or a boolean gate based processor or a neural summing gate network of processor elements work in light of blind cause-effect chains and the GOGO principle?)kairosfocus
July 28, 2014
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PS: IEP has a useful overview here. (NB: I take MF's tendency to refuse to disclose a system but pose on challenging and dismissing specific focal points in a discussion, with an emphasis in alleged lack of clarity in language, as at least provisionally indicative. It also shows the way that such an approach, in real world context, can become just a tad like tossing the monkey wrench into the works.)kairosfocus
July 28, 2014
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Mung, IIRC, MF claims a philosophy base. I get the feeling, after some years of generally fruitless exchanges, that it was very strongly shaped by a fairly narrow school of thought, probably analytic phil that used to dominate Oxbridge. That explains a tendency to pounce on language difficulties, real or imagined. Wiki introduces:
The term "analytic philosophy" can refer to: A broad philosophical tradition[2][3] characterized by an emphasis on clarity and argument (often achieved via modern formal logic and analysis of language) and a respect for the natural sciences.[4][5][6] The more specific set of developments of early 20th-century philosophy that were the historical antecedents of the broad sense: e.g., the work of Bertrand Russell, Ludwig Wittgenstein, G. E. Moore, Gottlob Frege, and logical positivists. In this latter, narrower sense, analytic philosophy is identified with specific philosophical commitments (many of which are rejected by contemporary analytic philosophers), such as: The logical positivist principle that there are no specifically philosophical truths and that the object of philosophy is the logical clarification of thoughts. This may be contrasted with the traditional foundationalism, which considers philosophy to be a special science (i.e. discipline of knowledge) that investigates the fundamental reasons and principles of everything.[7] Consequently, many analytic philosophers have considered their inquiries as continuous with, or subordinate to, those of the natural sciences.[8] The principle that the logical clarification of thoughts can only be achieved by analysis of the logical form of philosophical propositions.[9] The logical form of a proposition is a way of representing it (often using the formal grammar and symbolism of a logical system) to display its similarity with all other propositions of the same type. However, analytic philosophers disagree widely about the correct logical form of ordinary language.[10] The rejection of sweeping philosophical systems in favour of attention to detail,[11] or ordinary language.[12]
It is no surprise to see that I profoundly beg to differ, viewing phil issues as foundational, worldview level issues that must be assessed on comparative difficulties across diverse positions. Where the underlying insight is the old "turtles all the way down" challenge. As finite, fallible thinkers, we must accept that an infinite regress is an impossibility for our thought, and that turtles in a circle is little more than question begging. Thence, the conclusions that: (a) the last turtle must stand somewhere, (b) foundation has in it partly self-evident truths and partly "first plausibles" [think: presuppositions etc] that serve as reasonable start-points, (c) as alternatives are possible, they must assess comparative difficulties if they are to avoid question begging. Now, this means I am thinking in terms of worldviews, precisely the "sweeping . . . systems" that are so often despised. To which, my retort is, the unexamined life is not worth living. In particular, an unexamined unconscious worldview is apt to be confused with reality itself, what actually is. So, why not accept that we are finite, fallible and inevitably will synthesise a world-picture so let us approach that project incrementally and understanding it as a grand explanatory exercise? One, that inevitably embeds a faith-venture? Oops, I said a red flag word. In reply, I say with Locke that we must seek a reasonable faith by the candle-light we actually have:
Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 - 21, Eph 4:17 - 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 - 21, Jer. 2:13, Titus 2:11 - 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Intro to Essay on Human Understanding, sec 5. Text references added, to document the sources of Locke's biblical allusions and citations. Yes, they are indeed patently there.]
The greats are truly profound, and while math symbols, analyses, models etc can be useful, there is something conveyed by a classic excerpt like this that goes beyond skeletal mathematical analyses. Indeed, a love of wisdom -- the root meaning of philosophy -- and a discernment that is powerfully guiding. In addition, I am concerned about an underlying scientism that seems to influence so many of our objectors. The notion at crude level that scientific approaches delimit knowledge, or at more sophisticated levels, that this is the province of first class knowledge. Blend in "scientific," lab-coat clad evolutionary materialism as assumed ideological a priori, and the notion that it has successfully set up a framework for explaining origins so those who question is MUST be in error, the only issue is where. Selective hyperskepticism then kicks in, with inconsistencies in standards of demanded warrant. Ironically, it is a symptom of excessive credulity regarding an accepted school, united with fragmentation of worldview level thought so it tends not to register that we must sit to a common table of comparative difficulties at foundational level. Oooooooooooooops, another red flag word, foundations. My reply on this is, revisit the turtles all the way down case, in light of finitude and fallibility. When alternatives such as spiderweb meshes of beliefs or Neurath's raft always under partial reconstruction are put forward, they invariably include an implicit foundation. A spider web runs on anchor lines in a star, tied to anchor-points, and the raft rests on the sea and the principle of floatation. A spaceship, on its structural core, required systems to function, and the underlying forces and materials of nature. That is why I tend to think in terms of factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power, touchstones of comparative difficulty analysis. (Let me note, the one time when MF addressed this, he tried to trigger an iterative restart at any given foundation point, I believe failing to grasp the implications of finitude. And of course, to ever so many objectors self-evident truths that are like plumblines are suspect as they cut across what they want, and point to a need to submit to rather than invent truth. Hence the underlying intensity of disputes against first principles of right reason. At TSZ I actually saw an objection to SB, that he is suspected of wanting to move from such to "proofs" of God. Attack the imagined motive is not an answer to the matter in hand . . . another problem.) And so forth. KFkairosfocus
July 28, 2014
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V: One underlying metaphysical problem is the problem of the one and the many, i.e. unity and diversity at the same time in a unified cosmos which has in it people who are morally governed and rational, reasoning and knowing. This includes good and evil as an aspect. This is, again, a comparative difficulties across worldviews challenge and if the answers were easy, it would not be a philosophical problem. (I once defined phil as the discipline that seeks to ask and attempt to answer hard questions . . . about ourselves, our world, its roots, reality etc.) KFkairosfocus
July 28, 2014
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The Misanthrope – by Moliere – trans Richard Wilbur Quoted by the man who refuses to read the posts of the person to whom the quote was directed. Hilarious. I suppose it's wrong to be misanthropic. But why? Mark Frank:
KF – I ignored 304 (and the 5 subsequent comments) because they written by you.
If I wanted to avoid the truth at all costs I'd void his posts too. Mark Frank:
Like many people I do not have time to read your many, many comments which are frequently very hard to understand and almost always cannot be addressed without asking for further clarification.
Intellectual laziness is not a defense.Mung
July 27, 2014
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In the book On Guard, Chapter 6 asks the question, Can We Be Good Without God?
While it would be arrogant and ignorant to claim that people cannot be good without belief in God, that wasn't the question. The question was: can we be good without God? When we ask that question, we're posing a question about the nature of moral values.
What is the basis of our values? Are they based on: 1. Social convention? 2. Personal preference? 3. Evolution? 4. God?Mung
July 27, 2014
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... Now having said that about RDFish, methinks he knows more than he lets on. When he says that he feels that torturing puppies and babies is "evil", I really believe he thinks it is evil, throughout all time and space, in any conceivable universe. I think that if today RDFish discovered that there really is a transcendent reality that is the source for such revulsion, that he would gladly accept and go along. Maybe with a sigh of relief. This is to his credit. And all people like him. They feel the kingdom, but they can't quite see the King.Vishnu
July 27, 2014
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K: some attempts at "explanation" run into that, but I'm not a dualist. I'm a monist. Non-dualist Vedanta. My view of the ying/yang is two aspects of the same ontology. "Contention" was a poor choice of words. "Opposition" is better. Neither aspects is "good" or "bad." The relationship between these two aspects leads to all subsidiary manifestations at many, many different levels. I do not believe in a "good" power and a "bad" power. Morality, i.e, "good and evil", is not absolute, but it does transcend space-time, and has consequences to individual consciousness. At any rate, I must stress that I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet, and the transcendent reality cannot be expressed in mere words, by mere human reason. If it could, it would not be transcendent! Only bare hints can be expressed. Pointers. Hopefully koens, to jar one out of the certain illusions. Like consciousness itself- you have to be one to know one. ;) Mere logic will never do. Which is one reason why it's pointless to argue with people who cannot see that "morality" does, in part, have a grounding in a transcendent reality. You either "see" that (pick your metaphore) or you don't. You either see the color blue or you don't. Mere logic will never convince anyone. Take RDFish for example. He's got a fine logical mind. He writes well, states his points well, and quite frankly, I think he's very intelligent, and I like to read what he writes. But he's blind in a certain area that mere words are never, ever going to overcome. Words and logic are only useful when both sides already know at some level the meaning of the terminus. But I understand the fun of debate.Vishnu
July 27, 2014
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V: Such a y-y' being runs into the same problem as dualisms [going all the way back to neo-platonism], inability to ground good. A key insight is that evil is not a substantial entity in itself, it is the frustration or diversion etc of the good. KFkairosfocus
July 27, 2014
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KF: There’s but one serious candidate: the inherently good Creator God, the root of reality who is a necessary and maximally good being. (Zeus for one does not fit; just ask Hera!)
Yeah, I threw Zeus in just for funzies. I don't believe in a "maximally good being" of classical theism. (I'll give you my reasons if you're interested.) I only believe in a necessary reality that appears to have as one of its features a ying/yang polarity that is in eternal contention. Space-time is a derivation of that reality. And consciousness is a fundamental part of it. (I.e, consciousness is not a created thing.) That doesn't mean there are no creator(s) of us lowly human who make demands on us. I think there are. Big subjects all. And interesting. Thanks for your reply.Vishnu
July 27, 2014
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Now, is this somehow God’s fault? I would suggest that Hitler abused the wonderful gift of responsible freedom, without which we cannot genuinely reason, warrant or know, decide responsibly or love. Which points out that the highest goods, being virtues, require real freedom. So, we are back at the problem of evil and the power of the free will defense, cf.
True - it depends on what we think God is - the nature of God, his creative actions, etc. From a materialist/subjective viewpoint, I think Hitler is just a being that did things. We cannot derive an ought from an is. Hitler is just an "is" from history. There is nothing he ought to have done. He had a different taste in films than other people do. That's sounds callous and harsh but that's what is proposed in the notion that "Man is the result of a purposeless and natural process that did not have him in mind."Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2014
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* Single moral act/decision: “In every circumstance, whether reasoning with myself or communicating with others, I will always tell a lie.”
I could restate that: “In every circumstance, whether reasoning with myself or communicating with others, I will always negate the truth.” So, we have: A = A, True or False? With my moral principle in place: False. Therefore, A A, True or False? At this point, logic has broken down. We must reject the moral principle that we will always negate the truth. The standard and ultimate justification for that? Logic itself. Subjectivism proposes that we could either affirm or deny that principle (that "I will always negate the truth"), in the way we might find a film funny or not. But on the contrary, it's illogical to affirm that ethical principle. It destroys the reasoning process itself and contradicts the idea that we can find an ultimate, or any justification for anything.Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2014
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Hi V: Such logic tangles are why I took time to lay out the issue, first, are we under moral government? If so, we have responsible freedom and are therefore . . . responsible. (Without which, BTW, we cannot reason and so all conversations pretending to be reasoned argument are so much noise.) Once we are under OUGHT, that has a foundation in the root of reality, an IS that can support it. Cutting the long story short, we now invite candidates for audition and interview. There's but one serious candidate: the inherently good Creator God, the root of reality who is a necessary and maximally good being. (Zeus for one does not fit; just ask Hera!) KFkairosfocus
July 27, 2014
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On quantum confusion: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/marking-up-ess-attempted-rebuttal-of-the-law-of-non-contradiction-on-perceived-implications-of-quantum-effects/kairosfocus
July 27, 2014
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KF @ 356: Now, is this somehow God’s fault?"
It depends. Did God want Hitler to grow up, wage war, and kill Jews? If so, on what basis was it "wrong?" If not, was God not powerless to stop it? Why didn't he? I mean, really now, if Yahweh can command Joshua to go and kill every last man, woman, child and baby in Jericho, then surely Yahweh could have arrange for Hitler's demise while in his infantcy. On the other hand, give his history, it is conceivable that Yahweh wanted Hitler to grow up, wage war, and kill Jews. Who is anyone to say otherwise? (Of course, this assumes God exists, and Yahweh in particular.) Sticky moral issues, these.Vishnu
July 27, 2014
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There are only two possible scenarios: 1. There is no "higher power." All morality is subjective, based on mere "blind" natural conditioning, as well as societal conditioning. Any given person's sense of right and wrong is completely determined by these. 2. There is a "higher power", whatever it's nature, whether it be an impersonal Platonic, inescapable Karmic system, or something like the God of Abraham , Zoroaster, or Zeus, that demands certain behaviors from us, or else punishments will ultimately follow. All morality is a blend of the "Platonic" factors, both (perhaps) designed and undesigned natural factors, and subjective societal conditioning. Any given persons sense of right and wrong is a blend of these. All moralities have degrees of subjectivity. This is easy to see since even among groups of people were morality and ethics are highly specified, there is always disagreement among individuals as to the details, even though they may be to fearful to speak about disagreements. The Big Question in my view is: how much of my morality is based on the Platonic Morality, if it exists, and how much is based on blind natural conditioning and societal conditioning? Nobody should pretend to have a definitive answer for that... unless you're making some specific claims to "godhood". In which case, I have a few tests for I'd like to perform on you. :)Vishnu
July 27, 2014
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SA: On Hitler's Creation. I would suggest that Hitler was in the first instance a result of the procreative act of marriage between his parents, just like the rest of us. I would secondly suggest that little Adolph was once an innocent baby. Then, yes, there seemed to be abusive elements in his upbringing and schooling. He did fail to get into art school. He did slip over the border into Germany and was present at the celebration of the declaration of war in 1914 (astonishing as that seems today, so naive were people in that day). At no point here do we see more than what is commonplace. He joined the army, served as a runner, may have had a love child. He was exposed to war propaganda, served in the zone of the notorious rape of Belgium [which in turn had not been very nice to Africans . . . but then it looks like my remote European ancestors were Belgian]. Thus he was part of the most efficient killing machine to that date, and doubtless was coarsened and partly made callous by that. At the end of the war, with the 100 days campaign in full swing he seemed to have been gassed and in hospital. The Armistice came, as a great disappointment . . . pointing to a bit of unreality. He swore to get into politics, was made a spy on the nascent Nazi Party, and at the same time was a chief organiser. From that, he went downhill, and became a byword for a merciless demonic dictator. Now, is this somehow God's fault? I would suggest that Hitler abused the wonderful gift of responsible freedom, without which we cannot genuinely reason, warrant or know, decide responsibly or love. Which points out that the highest goods, being virtues, require real freedom. So, we are back at the problem of evil and the power of the free will defense, cf. here. KFkairosfocus
July 27, 2014
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F/N: For those who think that there isn't a debate over first principles of reason where objectors to design theory generally are dismissive of such, or if you think that such is a dead issue, kindly cf: HERE: http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/?p=296&cpage=3 http://nwrickert.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/the-rules-of-right-reason/ vs: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/id-foundations/stirring-the-pot-3-what-about-the-so-called-laws-of-thoughtfirst-principles-of-right-reason/ https://uncommondescent.com/faq/#LNC Nope, the issue is not made up, and it seems quite hard for some to understand that once anything in the cosmos say A is distinct, that effects a world partition and the triple principles of right reason LOI, LNC, LEM, immediately and jointly obtain. KFkairosfocus
July 27, 2014
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KF #344 Yes, once we conclude that God exists, we have to ask about what God has revealed or communicated.Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2014
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SB 342
Precisely. Thank you. The natural moral law cannot possibly provide a precise solution to every moral problem. If that was the case, we wouldn’t need our conscience to shape our moral intuitions or the virtue of prudence to inform our moral calculations, both of which are required to make a sound moral decision. The natural moral law addresses the universal principle; the virtue of prudence addresses the particular application.
That's very good- thanks. The objective natural moral law is like philosophical arguments for the existence of God. Those arguments show that God exists - but they don't intent to prove every theological detail about Christianity, for example.Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2014
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you have been a pleasure to discuss things with so I will keep this up a bit longer but if I stop please don’t interpret it as a rudeness to you (or a concession you are right ). I am simply running out of time.
Thank you – I’ve enjoyed discussing this with you also. I’ll skip a number of responses you gave, in the interest of time – and also because I understand and accept your objections to what I said. You’re looking for a higher-level justification – ultimate justification. So, I’ll jump to that.
The following sequence about “the truth” is hard to understand. Can you give an example of a single moral act, what “the truth” is in this case, and show how this is an ultimate justification for that act.
My point is that we can’t be subjectivist in regards to moral issues that require affirmation of the truth. * Single moral act/decision: “In every circumstance, whether reasoning with myself or communicating with others, I will always tell a lie.” * “The truth” in this case: We cannot morally affirm that act. * Ultimate justification: You are looking for facts that ultimately compels a moral act and which make it impossible to logically overturn. In this case, one cannot agree to always tell a lie. Affirming “yes, I will always lie” would have to be a lie – and thus be true, and thus a violation of the moral norm. So, subjectivism fails here. We cannot establish a moral principle to always tell a lie (we can strive to always tell the truth though). The ultimate justification is logic. The logical process requires an acceptance of the truth. To reject the truth in every case is illogical.
I am exploring the logical implications of your position, not adopting it myself. You wrote: But the simple fact that the act of creation (bringing something into being) is necessarily a ***good action**** You didn’t specify what was created or who did it. You seemed to be claiming that any act of creation of anything by anything is necessarily good. I provided some apparent counter-examples.
Yes, you asked if we could have an evil purpose. So, it’s the creation of purpose in general. Creation, in that sense, as I was referring to it is ex nihilo – bringing something into being. So I’m not sure if you think that God created Hitler and/or how you think God did that. Then to what extent you think God is responsible for Hitler’s actions – and why you think that. That would make a big difference on what we conclude about the purpose of things.Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2014
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MF #345
you have been a pleasure to discuss things with so I will keep this up a bit longer but if I stop please don’t interpret it as a rudeness to you (or a concession you are right ). I am simply running out of time.
Thank you - I've enjoyed discussing this with you also. I'll skip a number of responses you gave, in the interest of time - and also because I understand and accept your objections to what I said. You're looking for a higher-level justification - ultimate justification. So, I'll jump to that.
The following sequence about “the truth” is hard to understand. Can you give an example of a single moral act, what “the truth” is in this case, and show how this is an ultimate justification for that act.
My point is that we can't be subjectivist in regards to moral issues that require affirmation of the truth. * Single moral act/decision: "In every circumstance, whether reasoning with myself or communicating with others, I will always tell a lie." * "The truth" in this case: We cannot morally affirm that act. * Ultimate justification: You are looking for facts that ultimately compels a moral act and which make it impossible to logically overturn. In this case, one cannot agree to always tell a lie. Affirming "yes, I will always lie" would have to be a lie - and thus be true, and thus a violation of the moral norm. So, subjectivism fails here. We cannot establish a moral principle to always tell a lie (we can strive to always tell the truth though). The ultimate justification is logic. The logical process requires an acceptance of the truth. To reject the truth in every case is illogical.
I am exploring the logical implications of your position, not adopting it myself. You wrote: But the simple fact that the act of creation (bringing something into being) is necessarily a ***good action**** You didn’t specify what was created or who did it. You seemed to be claiming that any act of creation of anything by anything is necessarily good. I provided some apparent counter-examples.
Yes, you asked if we could have an evil purpose. So, it's the creation of purpose in general. Creation, in that sense, as I was referring to it is ex nihilo - bringing something into being. So I'm not sure if you think that God created Hitler and/or how you think God did that. Then to what extent you think God is responsible for Hitler's actions - and why you think that. That would make a big difference on what we conclude about the purpose of things.
Silver Asiatic
July 27, 2014
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PPPS: It is also worth noting on the secondary, twisted nature of evil -- the abuse, perversion, frustration or privation of the good. So, for instance, to create, and the capacity creativity are good abilities and actions. But, we may twist them into creating bad things, such as man-traps that capture and maim others such as we are on the twisted logic that we own a forest and (despite the starving of peasant children) that ownership justifies maiming and even killing any who dare trespass, especially if they may poach a rabbit or a fish to feed their family. Where, obviously, there are far less destructive means to deal with poaching and conservation of game. The pivotal evil is, to fail to see comparative values: what is a man profited to gain the world at the expense of his soul -- the very thing that makes him more than a brute beast.kairosfocus
July 27, 2014
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PPS: On the inherent irrationality of evolutionary materialism, via self-referential incoherence: cf. here on, in context for a 101, and on the want of grounding for OUGHT, cf. here on in context. On the former, Reppert gives a helpful short summary:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
On the latter, Hawthorne hits the nail on the head, hard:
Assume (per impossibile) that atheistic naturalism [[= evolutionary materialism] is true. Assume, furthermore, that one can't infer an 'ought' from an 'is' [[the 'is' being in this context physicalist: matter-energy, space- time, chance and mechanical forces]. (Richard Dawkins and many other atheists should grant both of these assumptions.) Given our second assumption, there is no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer an 'ought'. And given our first assumption, there is nothing that exists over and above the natural world; the natural world is all that there is. It follows logically that, for any action you care to pick, there's no description of anything in the natural world from which we can infer that one ought to refrain from performing that action. Add a further uncontroversial assumption: an action is permissible if and only if it's not the case that one ought to refrain from performing that action . . . [[We see] therefore, for any action you care to pick, it's permissible to perform that action. If you'd like, you can take this as the meat behind the slogan 'if atheism is true, all things are permitted'. For example if atheism is true, every action Hitler performed was permissible. Many atheists don't like this consequence of their worldview. But they cannot escape it and insist that they are being logical at the same time. Now, we all know that at least some actions are really not permissible (for example, racist actions). Since the conclusion of the argument denies this, there must be a problem somewhere in the argument. Could the argument be invalid? No. The argument has not violated a single rule of logic and all inferences were made explicit. Thus we are forced to deny the truth of one of the assumptions we started out with. That means we either deny atheistic naturalism or (the more intuitively appealing) principle that one can't infer 'ought' from [[a material] 'is'.
(It's probably worth noting, too, that when one objects to evils, natural or imposed by human action, one implies that there is a standard by which one can judge good vs evil, and that one OUGHT to do good and eschew or even shun evil. Thus, one implies one of two things: (a) we are under moral government, or else (b) one is manipulating the perception others have that they are under moral government in order to promote radical relativism . . . which last, is tantamount to there being no moral government only might and manipulation make 'right.')kairosfocus
July 27, 2014
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PS: As usual, it helps to cite as speaking against general ideological interest and agenda, the Wikipedia site c. Feb 2012,in its article on Laws of Thought:
The law of non-contradiction and the law of excluded middle are not separate laws per se, but correlates of the law of identity. That is to say, they are two interdependent and complementary principles that inhere naturally (implicitly) within the law of identity, as its essential nature . . . whenever we ‘identify’ a thing as belonging to a certain class or instance of a class, we intellectually set that thing apart from all the other things in existence which are ‘not’ of that same class or instance of a class. In other words, the proposition, “A is A and A is not ~A” (law of identity) intellectually partitions a universe of discourse (the domain of all things) into exactly two subsets, A and ~A, and thus gives rise to a dichotomy. As with all dichotomies, A and ~A must then be ‘mutually exclusive’ and ‘jointly exhaustive’ with respect to that universe of discourse. In other words, ‘no one thing can simultaneously be a member of both A and ~A’ (law of non-contradiction), whilst ‘every single thing must be a member of either A or ~A’ (law of excluded middle). What’s more . . . thinking entails the manipulation and amalgamation of simpler concepts in order to form more complex ones, and therefore, we must have a means of distinguishing these different concepts. It follows then that the first principle of language (law of identity) is also rightfully called the first principle of thought, and by extension, the first principle reason (rational thought) . . .
kairosfocus
July 27, 2014
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F/N: We are, of course, all finite, fallible, morally struggling and too often ill-willed [as I have often noted in and around UD]. Given recent personal attacks and "why don't you just shut up and go away" rhetorical gambits, I note this as a preface to what follows. In so noting and going on to speak, I am simply saying what I am compelled to by the weight of evidence on the merits, out of a sense of duty to speak truth in the face of an apparent juggernaut. What I will state and clip will doubtless cut cross-grain to some. Pardon that, sometimes it is necessary to go through what is painful if one is to be healed. As a relevant case in point to the just above issue of mainstreaming by manipulation, let me clip Matthew J. Franck, in his May 2011 First Things article, "Religion, Reason, and Same-Sex Marriage," as a case of a slice of the cake with all the ingredients in it. I believe in the power of a related but different illustration throwing a fill-light from the side:
In the contemporary debate on the future of marriage, there appears to be, amid many uncertainties, one sure thing. Those who publicly defend traditional marriage can count on being denounced as haters, bigots, or irrational theocrats—and perhaps all of these at once . . . . Marriage only between a man and a woman [in the view of activist judges and others] is a mere “tradition” with no claim on our attention when a claim of “discrimination” is made on the other side. All that this tradition has going for it is the “moral and religious views” of its supporters. But the law embodies moral choices, so why is this moral viewpoint illegitimate as the basis of a law? The problem is that it is driven too much by the religious commitments of those who hold it—and so it must be dismissed from public life and relegated to the realm of “private moral choice,” disallowed from enactment as the view of the majority in a democratic society. So toxic is it to hold certain religious views that merely believing them works a “harm” to other people. Those who hold these views must not only be prevented from enacting those views as the will of the democratic majority; they must, to the extent possible, be silenced in the public square. They must . . . shut up . . . . But why do some participants in our public debates—not just gay-marriage advocates but “secularists” of all stripes (and not a few religious people)—believe that religiously grounded arguments must be “privatized”? Why do they believe that faith and reason must be separated by an unbreachable wall? And why are some arguments that are presented entirely in terms of rational precepts of morality, without reference to theological presuppositions or claims about God’s commandments, treated as suspect—as “theocratic,” no less—if they draw the same moral conclusions as particular religious teachings on the same subject? A partial explanation, offered by the theologian Alister McGrath, is the assumption that religious faith is “invariably blind faith”—unsupported by the evidence of facts available to us, and even contradicted by them. But as McGrath notes, “The simple reality of life is that all of us, irrespective of our views about God, base our lives on beliefs—on things that we cannot prove to be true, but believe to be trustworthy and reliable.” Understood in this way, “faith” is indispensable to all of us, whether we are recognizably “religious” or not. Belief is “not blind,” says McGrath, “it just tries to make the best sense of things on the basis of the limited evidence available.” It is perhaps a touchingly blind faith in the sufficiency of narrow scientific reasoning that fails to recognize this obvious fact of the human condition . . .
In short, all worldviews have roots in first plausibles which as a body are not subject to further proof. For, turtles all the away down forever is impossible for the finite and fallible, and turtles in a ring is another name for begging the question. So, we are in the end looking at finitely remote first plausibles (some of which may be self-evident but that's never enough to ground a worldview), and at comparative difficulties across alternatives on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power. A reasonable faith, a tenable worldview is one that can sit to the table of such comparative difficulties and hold its own in the face of inevitable difficulties. And, obviously, the IS-OUGHT gap and the linked issues of rights and grounding of morality and moral government, are at this level. It will come as no surprise to the astute reader of this blog that this issue of worldview grounding has been a point of strong exchanges, and that again and again evo mat supporters have been found short of answers. For many such, the idea that there are self-evident first principles of right reason is objectionable. To them, this apparently seems a tyrannical imposition. To us, this is simply facing foundational realities and using them to guide reason. Where, to ignore such is to be irrational, even delusional. (And the title of Dawkins' notorious and intemperate book, The God Delusion, speaks straight to a classic rhetorical tactic, the twisting about of an issue and projecting it unto the other side, which can then be pounded away at without asking and addressing, but wait, where do my own ideas point, when examined at foundational levels?) What I mean, here, is, something like, take a case of a red ball on a table, A. This allows us to see that the world W is partitioned: W = { A | NOT_A } From this act of recognition, immediately we find the law of identity, non contradiction and excluded middle in action. But, as has played out for weeks at a time, that is somehow viewed as controversial and objectionable. (And no, quantum phenomena do not contradict such laws, the scientists have to rely on the laws to do quantum theory science. It is not wise to saw off the branch on which one must sit.) Likewise, we can ask, given A, why? How does it come to be here? And obviously, we can expect, hope or at least try to find a good and sufficient reason for A. This is the principle of sufficient reason, in weak form. Only a matter of a few weeks ago, much the same circle of objectors were agitated in opposition, especially to the direct corollary, once we examine modes of being -- possible vs impossible, contingent vs necessary -- namely that a contingent possible being depends on at least one enabling on/off factor, and so are caused. Where also, there are beings that as they have no such dependence, cannot not exist in all possible worlds. Numbers such as 1, 2, 3, . . . and relations such as 2 + 3 = 5, are examples. The general impression one receives, is this is an age of determined radical relativism and even subjectivism, and anything that cuts across that is targetted as a threat to the preferred worldview. A calmer examination, will show that instead, we are seeing a mass case of irrationality, a manipulated Plato's cave world. Dismissal of first principles of right reason -- as we have far too often seen here at UD, is irrational, period. It saws off the branch on which we all must sit. Similarly, when it comes to whether we are under moral government, the very fact that the objectors are so busily trying to create the perception that we are int eh wrong, are hypocrites and the like, is a testimony that yes, we are under moral government. That means OUGHT is patently real and binding. Those who misled Eric Harris through Nietzsche etc were in the wrong. (Nor is this the first time that philosophical fallacies have been used to lead youngsters down the path to nihilism. Sometimes, dressed up in the lab coat. But predictably, with terrible consequences.) But once OUGHT is real and binding, we live in a world in which there is an IS that is foundational and capable of supporting that awesome weight. There is but one serious candidate -- eloquently confirmed by the absence of an alternative from the objectors -- the inherently good, Creator God, the root of reality, who is a necessary and maximally great being. You don't need to accept this view or argument, and it is your privilege to take up a different one, but then the force of comparative difficulties comes to bear, and you then need to answer as to whether we are in facr under government of OUGHT. If not, then the view is patently factually inadequate. If so, then you need to give us a different IS that can ground OUGHT, without reducing tot he nihilistic absurdity, might and manipulation make 'right.' And, no this is not a contest over who is nice vs who is a hypocrite etc. It is not about who is nasty or an enabler of nastiness. It is far more fundamental: are we under moral government, and if so, what IS grounds OUGHT. And if we are not under moral government, absurdity follows. Yes, the choices we face are stark. Perhaps, utterly unpalatable to many. That does not mean, they are not real, forced, momentous choices. Worldview foundation issues tend to be like that. KFkairosfocus
July 27, 2014
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