Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Epigenetic Inheritance: Can Evolution Adapt?

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Given how routinely evolution fails to explain biology, it is remarkable that scientists still believe in the nineteenth century idea. One of the many problems areas is adaptation. Evolution holds that populations adapt to environmental pressures via the natural selection of blind variations. If more fur is needed, and some individuals accidentally are endowed with mutations that confer a thicker coat of fur, then those individuals will have greater survival and reproduction rates. The thicker fur mutation will then become common in the population.

This is the evolutionary notion of change. It is not what we find in biology. Under the hood, biology reveals far more complex and intelligent mechanisms for change, collectively referred to as epigenetic inheritance. You can read more about the challenge that this form of inheritance poses for evolution here. The take home message is that adaptation is routinely found to be not blind, but rather responsive to environmental pressures. The fur becomes thicker not by accident, but via cellular mechanisms responding to a need.

There is still much to learn about this phenomenal built-in adaptation capability, but it now is clear, and has been for many years, that epigenetic inheritance is a dramatic departure from evolutionary expectations. Indeed, this sort of adaptation is closer to the ideas of the long disgraced French naturalist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744-1829). Lamarck’s idea was that offspring inherit traits or characteristics that were acquired by the parents. Although epigenetic inheritance is far more complex than anything Lamarck imagined, he was remarkably close to what is now being discovered. You can see a recent review of what has been learned here. Only a few years ago positive references to Lamarck drew heated response. Such ideas were not tolerated. Now his name appears regularly in the epigenetics literature.

This leaves evolutionists in an awkward position, to say the least.

Continue reading here.

Comments
Stephen, I am not interested in analogies. I am interested in biology, not hypothetical words written on Mars, which are irrelevant because they are not biological organisms. so please get back to me when you want to talk about biology. again, just take any biological structure you want and explain to me how you calculate the effects of intelligence.Khan
June 14, 2009
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---khan: "you claim that the effects of intelligence can be measured. can you please show me how, using a real biological example? in turn, I will tell you how to calculate something in evolutionary biology, let’s say how to distinguish between positive and purifying selection in DNA sequences. deal?" I am not interested in biology at the moment, and you will notice that I said nothing about it. The words "effect of design" are not synonymous with biology. My first task is to find out if you understand the general principles involved. That was the substance of my question @170 and that question remains unanswered.StephenB
June 14, 2009
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Joseph,
What does that have to do with evolutionary biology? Absolutely nuthin’.
actually, distinguishing between positive and purifying selection would be a good way to get at the types of questions you're asking. but i guess you're the expert, so I'll defer to you.Khan
June 14, 2009
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"The only way we know anything about the people around Stonehemge is by studying the evidence they left behind." Actually, we know something by looking at ourselves. Because they were people like us. Point is, the flagellum comes before the existence of any intelligent life on earth. So: intelligence before intelligence!David Kellogg
June 14, 2009
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David Kellogg:
People, who have experience moving rocks around into patterns, see rocks arranged in patterns:
Mike Shermer calls it "patternicity". He applies it very selectively though. Glaciers move rocks, big rocks.
It’s a much bigger leap to infer from the arrangement of life itself that a designer or designers, about whom nothing is known, must have done it.
Hello? The only way we know anything about the people around Stonehemge is by studying the evidence they left behind. As a matter of fact in the absence of direct observation or designer input the ONLY way to make ANY scientific determination about the designer(s) or the specific process(es) used is by studying the design in question. That you refuse to understand that says quite a bit about you and your motives. That said we only have experience with life begetting life. Anything beyond that is science fiction.Joseph
June 14, 2009
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Khan:
in turn, I will tell you how to calculate something in evolutionary biology, let’s say how to distinguish between positive and purifying selection in DNA sequences.
What does that have to do with evolutionary biology? Absolutely nuthin'. Show us how to calculate how many genetic accidents it takes to produce novel body parts and novel protein machinery. For example the bacterial flagellum- from none to one in how many mutations?Joseph
June 14, 2009
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Stephen, you claim that the effects of intelligence can be measured. can you please show me how, using a real biological example? in turn, I will tell you how to calculate something in evolutionary biology, let's say how to distinguish between positive and purifying selection in DNA sequences. deal?Khan
June 14, 2009
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----khan: "now, can you please show me how to calculate the effects of intelligence?" My comments at 170 are for you.StephenB
June 14, 2009
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I can answer your question with a question. Suppose you visited the planet Mars and decided do research at three locations. [Assume that no earthly humans have ever visited there.] At the first location, you notice a large boulder marked by a total of 136 jagged edges and cavities. At the second location, you notice another large boulder that also contains 136 images, which, upon further examination form the following sequence of letters and spaces: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all mean are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.” At the third location, you notice a boulder marked by three curves lines that appear to read OOO. What would you conclude about these three boulders and the mathematical probability that any or all were designed?StephenB
June 14, 2009
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----David Kellogg: "Stephen, yes, I know, it’s not complexity per se, it’s complexity plus specification, etc., none of which can be measured and none of which leads to anything beyond pointing to something and saying “intelligence did it because I don’t have a better answer.” OK, so when you said that ID attempts to make a design inference from "complexity," a common anti-ID strawman, that was what, an oversight or a misrepresentation? When you said that ID cannot measure "intelligence," as opposed to the effects of intelligence, that was what, a typo, misrepresentation, or misapprehension? When you now say that none of this can be measured, do you mean to suggest that simpler models cannot be measured, that more complex models cannot be measured, or literally that none of this can be measured? Or is this another instance in which you just happened to leave out the decisive qualifying adjective?StephenB
June 14, 2009
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David Kellogg, ------"People, who have experience moving rocks around into patterns, see rocks arranged in patterns: see things, in other words, in line with their knowledge of what people do. So, they think, people did that. It’s not a big leap. It’s a much bigger leap to infer from the arrangement of life itself that a designer or designers, about whom nothing is known, must have done it." This is what ID is, seeing a pattern in nature that you're already familiar with. The arrangement of life falls into familiar patterns, just like Stonehenge. It should not be ruled out because ID is seen in a cell instead of a rock formation David. Unless you have an a priori prejudice against finding ID in the cell (maybe it hits too close to home), the inference is just as obvious, if not more obvious, (once the complexity of the cell is grasped) than the design inference of Stonehenge.Clive Hayden
June 14, 2009
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People, who have experience moving rocks around into patterns, see rocks arranged in patterns: see things, in other words, in line with their knowledge of what people do. So, they think, people did that. It's not a big leap. It's a much bigger leap to infer from the arrangement of life itself that a designer or designers, about whom nothing is known, must have done it.David Kellogg
June 14, 2009
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Why did geologists give up looking for a geological cause [for Stonehenge]? David Kellogg:
Give up? Did they ever seek one?
So they gave up without even trying? That's pathetic. So scientists just jumped right to a design inference. And everyone was OK with that? What is it that prevents nature, operating freely from producing such a simple thing as Stonehenge? Transcription and translation have more design earmarks than Stonehenge yet you froth from the mouth over a biological design inference. Strange...Joseph
June 14, 2009
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People like you make me sick so it[']s payback time.
What do you mean by "payback time"?David Kellogg
June 14, 2009
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David Kellogg:
Somebody is responsible for you, but it’s not me.
You are not solely responsible. But what I am is due to the accumulated effects of you and your ilk. People like you make me sick so its payback time. Again if you don't like it you have the power to change it.Joseph
June 14, 2009
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Why did geologists give up looking for a geological cause [for Stonehenge]?
Give up? Did they ever seek one?David Kellogg
June 14, 2009
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Khan:
now, can you please show me how to calculate the effects of intelligence?
You don't calculate the effects of intelligence, you observe them. You can then test your design inference against nature, operating freely. For example the Sci-Fi channel has a show called "Ghost Hunters". These guys go around checking for evidence of the supernatural and testing everything they find against what is commonly known to cause whatever is observed. Most things are easily explained away. Some aren't so easy and some, if what we see can be believed, definitely fit the "paranormal" category-for example a chair that moves about 1 foot when no one is in the room. So there you have it- you make an observation and one of the main questions that science asks is "How did it come to be this way?". And then you find a way to test your inference.Joseph
June 14, 2009
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Joseph,
I am the product of your ignorant and childish approach to this debate.
Somebody is responsible for you, but it's not me.David Kellogg
June 14, 2009
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1- We have experience with designing agencies 2- We have experience with nature, operating freely 3- Experience tells us that it matters a great deal to any investigation whether or not that which is being investigated arose via nature, operating freely or agency involvement. Stonehenge- some stones in some pattern. Why did geologists give up looking for a geological cause? Because of 1 & 2. ID is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92): 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems. The design inference is based on observation and experience. Also it is testabile. What else do you want besides absolute proof?Joseph
June 14, 2009
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Stephen, WHy would I acknowledge someone else's error? that is just bizarre, esp. since I wasn't trying to cover for him.. he can do just fine by himself. now, can you please show me how to calculate the effects of intelligence?Khan
June 14, 2009
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David Kellogg, You have it all backwards. I am fighting BACK against playground bullies- YOU included. As for the design inference, it can be tested. And again all YOU have to do is demonstrate that nature, operating freely can account for it and the design inference- ie ID- falls. However it is clear that you cannot. Because if you really want to shut me up that is all you have to do. That you cannot support your position and instead want to say "No it isn't designed because you haven't produced the designer", just makes me who I am. IOW I am the product of your ignorant and childish approach to this debate. And you embody the whole anti-ID movement.Joseph
June 14, 2009
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StephenB, taking Joseph's side in anything is a Faustian bargain. Even on the rare occasions when he's right he's still a playground bully. Don't go there: you'll demean yourself. I say this as someone who finds you all right, despite our disagreements.David Kellogg
June 14, 2009
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Stephen, yes, I know, it's not complexity per se, it's complexity plus specification, etc., none of which can be measured and none of which leads to anything beyond pointing to something and saying "intelligence did it because I don't have a better answer." In fact, despite your vast training in philosophy, there was no straw man, because I was merely pointing out that the ID is not analogous to dark matter, as dark matter has legitimate scientific support for it.David Kellogg
June 14, 2009
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----Khan: "Can you give me a quantitative way to calculate the effects of intelligence? you can use an example, say, a flagellum if you’d like." Of couse. I can show you how ID calculates the probability that a given phenomenon was a product of an intelligent agency, and I will be happy to do that with a very simple example. I will not, however, indulge you until you show me some evidence that you understand DK's misrepresentation of ID's main argument, which you are apparently trying to provide cover for. Do you understand his error and are you willing to acknowledge it?StephenB
June 14, 2009
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Khan, Can you give me a quantitative way to calculate the effects of unguided processes? How many genetic accidents does it take to go from single-cell to metazoan? What's the calculation? Instead of griping about ID all YOU have to do is to actually support YOUR position. It is very telling that you choose not to.Joseph
June 14, 2009
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Khan, If you don't like the design inference then please provide the evidence that unguided processes can account for it. Failure to do so will just further expose you as an ignorant person on an agenda.Joseph
June 14, 2009
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Alan Fox, If you don't think that what I posted is evidence for ID then please by all means demonstrate how it arose via unguided processes. That you refuse to do so just proves my point that you are FoS.Joseph
June 14, 2009
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StephenB, Can you give me a quantitative way to calculate the effects of intelligence? you can use an example, say, a flagellum if you'd like.Khan
June 14, 2009
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----David Kellogg: "By contrast, this “intelligence” is not measurable and no attempts are made to observe it directly. ID just points to really complex things and says that intelligence is the answer." ----Joseph writes: "Add ID to the vast list of things Kellogg is ignorant of." ----David responds: "Joseph, I choose, on the whole, to ignore you, not what you say, becuase your behavior alternates between childish and thuggish." Well then, if you are going to ignore his "thuggish behvior" and "not what he says," why did you evade both him and his refutation. In any case, ID does not attempt to measure “intelligence,” rather it measures the “effects” of intelligence. Second, ID does not suggest that “complexity” alone provides any evidence for design. Since you are obviously uninformed about [or hostile toward] basic ID definitions and terms, you may also be unfamiliar with the definition of the term, “straw man.” As a community service, therefore, I will provide the relevant information from Wikipedia: “A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.” Hopefully, you will now accept the refutation gracefully since, as everyone knows, I, far from being a thug, am a real sweetie pie.StephenB
June 14, 2009
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Scott, you're peddling false equivalencies again. we can quantitatively measure gravity's effects on numerous scales throughout the universe. by contrast, there is no quantitative way to measure the effects of intelligence. unless you have one that everyone else in ID has been hiding?Khan
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