Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Epigenetic Inheritance: Can Evolution Adapt?

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Given how routinely evolution fails to explain biology, it is remarkable that scientists still believe in the nineteenth century idea. One of the many problems areas is adaptation. Evolution holds that populations adapt to environmental pressures via the natural selection of blind variations. If more fur is needed, and some individuals accidentally are endowed with mutations that confer a thicker coat of fur, then those individuals will have greater survival and reproduction rates. The thicker fur mutation will then become common in the population.

This is the evolutionary notion of change. It is not what we find in biology. Under the hood, biology reveals far more complex and intelligent mechanisms for change, collectively referred to as epigenetic inheritance. You can read more about the challenge that this form of inheritance poses for evolution here. The take home message is that adaptation is routinely found to be not blind, but rather responsive to environmental pressures. The fur becomes thicker not by accident, but via cellular mechanisms responding to a need.

There is still much to learn about this phenomenal built-in adaptation capability, but it now is clear, and has been for many years, that epigenetic inheritance is a dramatic departure from evolutionary expectations. Indeed, this sort of adaptation is closer to the ideas of the long disgraced French naturalist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744-1829). Lamarck’s idea was that offspring inherit traits or characteristics that were acquired by the parents. Although epigenetic inheritance is far more complex than anything Lamarck imagined, he was remarkably close to what is now being discovered. You can see a recent review of what has been learned here. Only a few years ago positive references to Lamarck drew heated response. Such ideas were not tolerated. Now his name appears regularly in the epigenetics literature.

This leaves evolutionists in an awkward position, to say the least.

Continue reading here.

Comments
Joseph says: iconofid-There isn’t any data that demonstrates living organisms are reducible to chemicals. None, nada, zip, zilch, zero. However if you, or anyone else, comes up with such a demonstration then ID would be falsified. What are we supposed to demonstrate isn't there, and why isn't the onus on I.D. to demonstrate that whatever it is is there? And don't give me properties which would be the equivalent of saying that water has wetness. Also the only scientific observation we have says that life begets life. We certainly have the observation that life begets life, but we also have the scientific observations that tell us that the universe was not always in a state that would support life, so "life begets life" cannot be an eternal law, and cannot apply to the inevitable first life. Anything else is science fiction. To parrot: "I take it that is how you do science - by bald assertions". Joseph: “IOW how can we test the premise that the bacterial flagellum arose from a population of bacteria that never had one via an accumulation of genetic accidents?” Iconofid: We could test the general proposition of mutation and selection in relation to bacteria to see whether bacteria adjust to environmental challenges by putting them in new circumstances and waiting for advantageous adaptions. Joseph: And that is in line with the Creation model of biological evolution. Really? Then there's no apparent reason why the evolution of bacterial flagella by mutation and selection shouldn't be in line with the "Creation model of biological evolution". Describe this model, and tell us: In the creation model, is there a limit to the number of mutations and selection stages that can happen to an organism, and if so, what is that limit, and why does it exist? Is there any data which demonstrates unguided processes can take a component used for one thing and co-opt it for use in something else? Careful with your constant use of the word "unguided", because natural selection guides things in biology just as the contours of the land can guide the course of a stream. The verb "to guide" doesn't automatically imply sentience on the part of the guide. So, is there evidence for exaptation? Yes, plenty. You do realize that even your position requires something beyond nature. That is because science has told us that nature had a begining. And seeing that natural processes only exist in nature they cannot account for its origins. Current science takes us back to a point close to "time = 0", and beyond that is the unknown. Never mistake what is unknown to humans at any particular time as being unnatural, non-natural, or supernatural. Such mistakes were typical of our superstitious ancestors, and you should know better.iconofid
June 16, 2009
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iconofid: You seem acquainted with ID, but you continue demanding that a logical inference provide mechanical explanations. You seem convinced that naturalistic evolution is a reality simply because experiments are performed attempting to verify it, despite that those experiments reveal nothing. Your perpetual expectation that the evidence will eventually support your beliefs is not faith, but hope. Why should I abandon a logical conclusion based on evidence in favor of such hope? BTW, in which ID research paper do you find the words "disembodied beings?"ScottAndrews
June 16, 2009
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iconofid- There isn't any data that demonstrates living organisms are reducible to chemicals. None, nada, zip, zilch, zero. However if you, or anyone else, comes up with such a demonstration then ID would be falsified. Also the only scientific observation we have says that life begets life. Anything else is science fiction. “IOW how can we test the premise that the bacterial flagellum arose from a population of bacteria that never had one via an accumulation of genetic accidents?”
We could test the general proposition of mutation and selection in relation to bacteria to see whether bacteria adjust to environmental challenges by putting them in new circumstances and waiting for advantageous adaptions.
And that is in line with the Creation model of biological evolution.
Then, we could look for homologies in the actual flagellum, and also see if we could find any subset of the components of the flagellum functioning as something different elsewhere to test the sub-hypothesis of exaptation. Homologies assume descent. Is there any way to differentiate betweem homology and homoplasy? Is there any data which demonstrates unguided processes can take a component used for one thing and co-opt it for use in something else?
How’s the research going in the methodological supernaturalism camp, Joseph?
No idea what that even is. You do realize that even your position requires something beyond nature. That is because science has told us that nature had a begining. And seeing that natural processes only exist in nature they cannot account for its origins. So the bottom line is you are ignorant of ID and you think your ignorance is a refutation. Not only that but your "test" is full of holes.
Joseph
June 16, 2009
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Joseph quoting: iconofid: "And life is a chemical phenomenon." (Joseph): And that is nothing but a bald assertion. But I take it that is how you do science- via bald assertions. What are you made of, Joseph? Angeldust? Chemicals? What does observation tell you? Joseph: "IOW how can we test the premise that the bacterial flagellum arose from a population of bacteria that never had one via an accumulation of genetic accidents?" We could test the general proposition of mutation and selection in relation to bacteria to see whether bacteria adjust to environmental challenges by putting them in new circumstances and waiting for advantageous adaptions. Then, we could look for homologies in the actual flagellum, and also see if we could find any subset of the components of the flagellum functioning as something different elsewhere to test the sub-hypothesis of exaptation. Then we could do something like knock out a couple of the components, including a very important one, and find that there was still some motility. Then we might find, for example, that a couple of mutations elsewhere increased that motility, meaning that we have witnessed two possible reduced versions of the current "machine". Then we could look for pathways that would involve step by step development, with each step presenting an advantage to the organism that would be selected for. All of the above have been done, and probably more, so we can see how methodological naturalism looks at the present to try and figure out the past, although historical science is far from easy, and research is ongoing. How's the research going in the methodological supernaturalism camp, Joseph? Has any positive evidence for the existence of such things as supernatural beings come up? And how is work progressing on the problem of how disembodied beings would react with matter? Once those areas have been dealt with, and your mechanisms established, you could start to perhaps test your equivalent to what you demand of naturalists, and test the hypothesis that bacterial flagella are designed and constructed by attempting to show how it happened. Do you think that any significant progress will be made in these areas by I.D. scientists over the next 500 years?iconofid
June 16, 2009
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The design inference is based on observation and experience.
Really?kquote> Really, really.
What biological structure has been observed being Designed by the Designer postulated by the ID movement?
There isn't any designer postulated by the design movement. We don't know who or how many designers there were/ are. However we have observed designing agencies and know what they can do with nature. We have also observed nature, operating freely and have a good grasp on that. So we couple the two. Now if you don't like the design inference then all YOU have to do is demonstrate that nature, operating freely can account for it. However it is obvious thaty you can't and therefor you are reduced to arguing from ignorance. Also it is testable. What else do you want besides absolute proof?
How does one test hypotheses of Design? Claims that it is impossible for evolution to do it are not really tests of ID.
1- ID does NOT claim that it is impossible for evolution to do it. Only ignorant people say that. 2- You test the design hypothesis by seeing if it meets the design criteria. If it does then we infer design. Then someone can come and either confirm or refute that inference- just as with ALL scientific inferences.
By the way - I’m still wondering what event in Iraq caused your injuries.
Good for you.
As I mentioned before, it appears that no incidents took place in the place and timeframe that you claimed.
What timeframe did I claim? Do you think that all incidents are reported? Are you that stupid?
Joseph
June 16, 2009
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iconofid:
“all observed intelligent designers have CSI as a prerequisite, therefore it’s reasonable to infer that CSI doesn’t require intelligent design”.
Every scientific explanation of every event ever leads to an issue of regression. It can't be sidestepped. That's no excuse for tossing aside the evidence and making up stories.
What you seem to be doing is reacting to the idea of the naturalistic formation of the simplest possible self-replicator with incredulity, and then proposing something millions of times more complex than that self-replicator, unknown intelligent designers, as an alternative explanation.
How can something be complex when designed, and yet simple when it comes from nothing? If design is a million times more complex, then obviously abiogenesis is a million times simpler. In that case it should be fairly easy to replicate. Why do you think that attaching "unknown" to "designer" makes it unfathomably complex? Why doesn't the "unknown" in front of "cause and mechanism of abiogenesis" phase you?ScottAndrews
June 16, 2009
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Joseph: The design inference is based on observation and experience. Really? What biological structure has been observed being Designed by the Designer postulated by the ID movement? Also it is testable. What else do you want besides absolute proof? How does one test hypotheses of Design? Claims that it is impossible for evolution to do it are not really tests of ID. By the way - I'm still wondering what event in Iraq caused your injuries. As I mentioned before, it appears that no incidents took place in the place and timeframe that you claimed.derwood
June 16, 2009
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iconofid:
And life is a chemical phenomenon.
And that is nothing but a bald assertion. But I take it that is how you do science- via bald assertions.Joseph
June 16, 2009
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Khan, David, Alan, Mark, derwood, icon, gaz: The design inference is based on observation and experience. Also it is testable. What else do you want besides absolute proof?Joseph
June 16, 2009
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What is the evolutionary hypothesis based on natural selection and random mutations? IOW how can we test the premise that the bacterial flagellum arose from a population of bacteria that never had one via an accumulation of genetic accidents? It is very telling that not ONE evo has stepped forward to provide some positive evidence for their position. All you clowns have to do is actually start supporting your position with real scientific data and ID will fade away. However your current approach proves you are ignorant of science.Joseph
June 16, 2009
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ScottAndrews: I don’t think that people always stop and consider what an absurd premise we’re debating. Random natural forces acting constructively, planning, and inventing, are a fantasy. Of course random natural forces "planning and inventing" are a fantasy. Remember, it is not the naturalist point of view that organisms require "planning and inventing", it is yours! What I was picking on was the argument that you presented as positive evidence for I.D., which was this: "The positive evidence of ID is that every occurrence of complex, specified information for which the physical cause is known was created intelligently. Every one. No exceptions. The only known cause is intelligence. Therefore, when we find a thing of unknown origin exhibits the same characteristics, it’s logical and scientific to attribute them to the same cause. What I was trying to explain was that, if you regard such "every occurrence of" arguments as positive evidence, then you would have to consider a number of such arguments as positive evidence against intelligent design, like the "all observed intelligent designers have CSI as a prerequisite, therefore it's reasonable to infer that CSI doesn't require intelligent design". What you seem to be doing is reacting to the idea of the naturalistic formation of the simplest possible self-replicator with incredulity, and then proposing something millions of times more complex than that self-replicator, unknown intelligent designers, as an alternative explanation.iconofid
June 16, 2009
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StephenB (254), I have repeatedly asked you for an answer to your question at 170. If it makes you happy, I don't know the answer and I want you to tell me what it is. Now please answer.Gaz
June 16, 2009
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iconofld: The infinite regression issue doesn't hold water. The evidence of intelligent cause doesn't disappear because it leaves an unanswered question or several. The same reasoning could argue that nothing exists because all existence requires an ultimate cause. And yet here we are. I don't think that people always stop and consider what an absurd premise we're debating. Random natural forces acting constructively, planning, and inventing, are a fantasy. There is nothing in the history of science or before to suggest otherwise. It's not to be taken seriously. It's fit for ridicule, but that's not polite. Nothing short of replication or a really good time-lapse model with extreme close-ups will convince me otherwise. If believing in miracles is irrational, what is believing in accidental miracles?ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
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ScottAndrews: iconofid @247: Zing! I guess life came from a poof! and its variations by accident after all. It’s a fantasy with no proof opposed to a conclusion based on evidence. Believe what you will. I think that the post you're replying to has now become "248" (probably a moderated post was inserted somewhere upthread - a confusing system!). Your reply doesn't answer my point, which was about your extreme technical inaccuracy. iconfid @249: (now 250!) A claim which is completely negated by the fact that every single intelligent designer known (every one, no exceptions) has complex specified information as a prerequisite. (Scott): By your exact reasoning, parents cannot be the cause of children because parents require parents which are also children. I’m not twisting your logic. That is what you’re saying. How does your observation negate my claim and not apply in the case above? You don't seem to be following my logic. You're attempting to explain "specified complexity" by evoking creatures (intelligent designers) who can't exist without it. "Evolutionists" do not seek to explain the existence of children by simply saying "there are parents". In fact, that characterizes your own argument better, because parents require parents, and explanation requires something other than infinite regression. We look for explanations for both parents and children which are neither (chemical and biological evolution). We do not claim things like "a parent started life on earth, and that explains children". But you're explaining SC by using something for which it is a prerequisite (intelligent designers). It's a bit like saying intelligent designers require intelligent designers.iconofid
June 15, 2009
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---khan: "if you think responding to straightforward requests for scientific information with silly wannabe-Socratic questions about stone tablets on Mars gives you a kick, be my guest. but all it does is show once again that ID is all talk and no rock." I am the one asking the questions, and you are the one who refuses to answer. If you are not willing to answer my question @170, which was related to your objection to my comments, why should I answer your question, which was not. If, as you say, you have no interest in CSI in principle, then perhaps you should not issue challenges on such matters. That's what I love about Darwinists. They love to issue challenges, but they never take them up. They are always ready to scrutinize, never ready to be scrutinized. Darwinists are fun.StephenB
June 15, 2009
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And life is a chemical phenomenon.
And a book is paper and ink.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
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iconfid @249:
A claim which is completely negated by the fact that every single intelligent designer known (every one, no exceptions) has complex specified information as a prerequisite.
By your exact reasoning, parents cannot be the cause of children because parents require parents which are also children. I'm not twisting your logic. That is what you're saying. How does your observation negate my claim and not apply in the case above?ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
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iconofid @247: Zing! I guess life came from a poof! and its variations by accident after all. It's a fantasy with no proof opposed to a conclusion based on evidence. Believe what you will.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
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ScottAndrews: The positive evidence of ID is that every occurrence of complex, specified information for which the physical cause is known was created intelligently. Every one. No exceptions. The only known cause is intelligence. Therefore, when we find a thing of unknown origin exhibits the same characteristics, it’s logical and scientific to attribute them to the same cause. A claim which is completely negated by the fact that every single intelligent designer known (every one, no exceptions) has complex specified information as a prerequisite. Your claim is also dubious, because chemical reactions are a "known cause" of chemical phenomena, and in every single case where we know the cause of natural chemical phenomena, chemical reactions are responsible. Therefore, (as you say) "when we find a thing of unknown origin exhibits the same characteristics, it’s logical and scientific to attribute them to the same cause." And life is a chemical phenomenon.iconofid
June 15, 2009
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Frankly, I think it’s like the high school exercise where you have to prove that a VW Bug isn’t alive. It’s a lot of work to quantify the obvious.
Not really. A VW bug is not comprised of cells, the smallest unit of life. It cannot obtain and use energy. It cannot grow, develop, reproduce, or respond to its environment. It cannot adapt. Next?RDK
June 15, 2009
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ScottAndrews: RM+NS has been tested in the lab with bacteria, and has evolved them into nearly identical bacteria in more generations than supposedly turned rats into elephants. Hmmm. About 40,000 generations, you're thinking of. 40,000 generations ago, elephants were pretty much elephants, and all the great apes were "nearly identical" great apes, and our ancestors were upright walking, tool making great apes. Where do you get your information from?iconofid
June 15, 2009
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derwood:
I’ve asked over a period of years for actual positive evidence for ID/creationism.
I'll sidestep the meaningless "ID/creationism" remark which tells me you haven't bothered to inform yourself on what you're debating. I'm feeling like a broken record. ID is an inference. The positive evidence of ID is that every occurrence of complex, specified information for which the physical cause is known was created intelligently. Every one. No exceptions. The only known cause is intelligence. Therefore, when we find a thing of unknown origin exhibits the same characteristics, it's logical and scientific to attribute them to the same cause. If there were exceptions, the inference wouldn't hold water. But there are none, unless you can think of something. That's the evidence. If there's some chemical trace of a designer, it's for chemistry to find. Frankly, I think it's like the high school exercise where you have to prove that a VW Bug isn't alive. It's a lot of work to quantify the obvious.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
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#237: Fair enough. My point is that not every theory is worth disproving. It wasn't a very useful comment. As for your question, similar ways to disprove ID, it's very simple. Keep in mind, ID does not address only biology. ID is falsified when it ascribes intelligence to anything not caused by intelligence. In other words, if an object bearing complex, specified information should occur by chance, ID would mistake it for intelligence, which means ID doesn't work. (Granted, there's a little leeway for refinement, but not much. If it starts making exceptions, something is wrong.) And this is commonly known. Anyone can knock it down. Zap chemicals with electricity. Run a random computer simulation. Anything. If a living thing or a paragraph or a machine comes out, then a cause other than intelligence can lead to apparent design. There are some resources out there and some people who hate ID. Why isn't anyone working on this? My guess - people like to imagine something from nothing, but when push comes to shove no one expects to see it.ScottAndrews
June 15, 2009
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Cornelius: This leaves evolutionists in an awkward position, to say the least. Almost as awkward, one might say, as having to find a way to explain why, despite there being a plethora of freely available pictures and drawings of thylacines on the internet, one felt it necessary to take a picture of a wolf and fiddle with the contrast and reverse the image and present it as an example of how similar wolves and thylacines are.derwood
June 15, 2009
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"Darwinists are fun." Almost as fun as Johnson-Dembskiists.derwood
June 15, 2009
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Stephen, if you think responding to straightforward requests for scientific information with silly wannabe-Socratic questions about stone tablets on Mars gives you a kick, be my guest. but all it does is show once again that ID is all talk and no rock.Khan
June 15, 2009
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ScottAndrews: Why should RM+NS be taken seriously enough that anyone should bother to disprove it? It is interesting to note that ID advocates with scientific credentials and access to research funds and space deign not to test their own hypotheses. Where did you get this idea that it is the default explanation until it is falsified? I cannot speak for anyone else, but perhaps it is from ID advocates and sundry creationists who firmly believe that if they can poke enough holes in "Darwinism" then their preferred "explanations" are thus correct. The last time I asked for positive evidence I got dog breeding and computer simulations. I've asked over a period of years for actual positive evidence for ID/creationism. All I ever am provided with are bouts of evolution/evolutionist/Darwin bashing and analogies. At least dog breeding and computer simulations are positive support. You may not like it or agree with it, but even such simple 'examples' are more substantive than analogies presented as evidence.derwood
June 15, 2009
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StephenB (240), So what is the answer, and why?Gaz
June 15, 2009
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---Gaz: "Now can you provide the answer to your own question at 170?" Well, of course I can. I didn't ask the question because I didn't know the answer. The whole idea was to find out if their are any Darwinists around who are intellectually honest enough to respond. Of course, I know that answer to that one as well. Still, it was a fun exercise. Indeed, I haven't had this much of a kick since I asked Darwinists if they believed that the law of non-contradiction applies to the real world. They didn't think so. I followed up by asking them if the principle that the whole is always greater than any one of its parts was "self-evidently true." They said absolutely not. So, I asked them if an automobile could be part of a crankshaft. They didn't see the connection. Darwinists are fun.StephenB
June 15, 2009
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Echidna.Levy, -------"I’m sure the world is waiting with baited breath for your next oration." I am, it beats yours all day long.Clive Hayden
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