Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community
Humpty

Darwinian Debating Device #9: “The Humpty Dumpty Gambit”

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The essence of the Humpty Dumpty gambit, of which Elizabeth Liddle is a master, is treating words as if they are infinitely malleable.

 

In my Demands of Charity post Elizabeth Liddle writes: “My beef is not against inferring design; it’s against inferring intentional design from the pattern exhibited by an object alone and refusing to investigate what other processes, including non-intentional “design” process are also candidates.”

In one sentence Ms. Liddle has used a patently absurd oxymoron and grossly misrepresented the ID project. Let’s see how:


Ms. Liddle refers to “non-intentional ‘design'” without seeming to realize that the phrase is a self referentially incoherent oxymoron. The World English Dictionary defines “design” as follows:

Verb
1. to work out the structure or form of (something), as by making a sketch, outline, pattern, or plans
2. to plan and make (something) artistically or skillfully
3. ( tr ) to form or conceive in the mind; invent
4. ( tr ) to intend, as for a specific purpose; plan
5. obsolete ( tr ) to mark out or designate Noun
6. a plan, sketch, or preliminary drawing
7. the arrangement or pattern of elements or features of an artistic or decorative work: the design of the desk is Chippendale
8. a finished artistic or decorative creation
9. the art of designing 10. a plan, scheme, or project 11. an end aimed at or planned for; intention; purpose
12. ( often plural; often foll by on or against ) a plot or hostile scheme, often to gain possession of (something) by illegitimate means
13. a coherent or purposeful pattern, as opposed to chaos: God’s design appears in nature 14. philosophy argument from design another name for teleological argument

What is common to all of these senses of the word “design”? You guessed it: intentionality. Thus, the phrase “unintentional design” is akin to “red blueness” or, perhaps better, “correct error.”

Elizabeth, no amount of scare quotes around the word design will save the phrase. It is a linguistic nullity.

Elizabeth might respond, that with her scare quotes she can make the word mean anything she wants it to mean, even its opposite. This, of course, is the Humpty Dumpty approach to language.

[Humpty Dumpty says to Alice]: ‘And only one for birthday presents, you know. There’s glory for you!’
‘I don’t know what you mean by “glory”,’ Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. ‘Of course you don’t — till I tell you. I meant “there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!”‘
‘But “glory” doesn’t mean “a nice knock-down argument”,’ Alice objected.
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.’

Through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll

Here is how Ms. Liddle channels Humpty:

Elizabeth said, ‘Mindless forces with no end in mind are responsible for the design of all living things.’
‘I don’t know what you mean by ‘design’ in that sentence,’ Barry said.
Elizabeth smiled contemptuously. ‘Of course you don’t — till I tell you. I meant “non-intentional design!”‘
‘But’ “non-intentional design” is an oxymoron, because intentionality is inherent in the word design,’ Barry objected.
‘When I use a word, ‘Elizabeth said, in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less, and if I want to use “design” to describe a process that has no intentionality, who is to stop me?’
‘The question is,’ said Barry, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
‘The question is,’ said Elizabeth, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.’

Yesterday, Ms. Liddle told me that if I received a radio signal from outer space that specified the prime numbers between 1 and 100, I would have no warrant to be certain the signal was designed by an intelligent agent. Today, she tells me that “non-intentional design” is a meaningful concept. Ms. Liddle, thank you for your contributions to this blog on behalf of our opponents.

Finally, a word about the how Ms. Liddle has grossly misrepresented the ID project. She says the ID community refuses “to investigate what other processes,” that might account for the data. Rubbish. I would direct Ms. Liddle to The Edge of Evolution by Michael Behe, in which Dr. Behe explores the limits of Darwinian evolution. To sum up the book in a sentence: “Researches observed in the lab literally trillions of reproductive events by bacteria under intense selection pressure. The bacteria did not develop any significant new biological information.”

Ms. Liddle: News flash. ID proponents have not refused to investigation Darwinian processes. In fact, ID proponents have investigated these processes thoroughly and found that they are indeed responsible for minor variations in phenotype and genotype. These same investigations have revealed, however, that Darwinian processes, even over trillions of reproductive events, do not result in major changes in phenotype and genotype as Darwinists claim.

Comments
Avo, you raise some serious issues, some of which come up in my just linked. You may enjoy the onward linked reading.kairosfocus
August 15, 2011
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Dr Liddle: I have further responded to your comment 52, here. I draw it to your attention by this link and short remark. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 15, 2011
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F/N 2: Venter et al: No, I have not brushed it aside. I simply cannot parse what you are saying. Excuse me, what is there about the fact of genome design and implementation of a demonstration in principle in a molecular nanotech lab of intelligent design of life that you cannot parse? Or, that several generations of advance on Venter would lead to a credible capacity to design life forms for earth starting with the first? Or that this therefore shows that such a lab would be SUFFICIENT as a candidate cause for biological life on earth, as was hinted at and discussed by Thaxton et al 25 years ago? [Recall here their discussion in the epilogue of creation by creator within the cosmos and also by creator without the cosmos, including panspermia.] In that context, the sufficiency of such a designer for what we see in life on earth means that evidence that tweredun does not here entail whodunit. (Onward discussion of the evident contingency and fine-tuned C-chemistry life friendly design of the cosmos does point to a creator beyond the cosmos.) F/N 3: I suggest you look here for an initial survey discussion of the deductive and inductive forms of the problem of evil in light of Plantinga's Free Will defense. Trying to indict God for evils, in the human world or the natural world is by no means as straightforward a matter as your talking points suggest. And, the simple Bible study theme of the doctrine of the fall and a sin-cursed world in your former days, should be sufficient to have pointed to that broader, deeper issue. F/N 4: In addition, you are subject-switching. The point of the Euthyphro dilemma challenge and my response [cf here and, again the worldview foundations discussion from here on -- please read the cluster of sections on building a worldview] is that only an intrinsically good transcendent Creator God of the cosmos suffices to provide a worldview foundation IS capable of bearing the weight of OUGHT. if you wish to deny this, you need to show it, not distract from it. And you know that. You also know or should know that evolutionary materialism has no such basis, and is inherently amoral and so absurd as it is plain that we are all bound and governed by the force of ought. In that context, you know or should know that a darwinian mechanism of chance variations plus culling through differential reproductive success is only capable of creating the DELUSION of binding morality, raising hte onward issue that on an evolutionary materialist view, our minds are inescapably delusional, i.e the foundations of rationality for reasoning and warranting knowledge are fatally undermined on these premises. Haldane's summary is apt:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms." [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
F/N 5: It seems to me that you should also be re-acquainted with the actual context of the Mosaic statement of the GR, to see just how far off track the notion of mushy love that does not understand the force of ought involved, is. For, love is closely tied to justice and sustaining the civil peace of justice and benefits to all in Lev 19:15 - 18 (as has been pointed out to you elsewhere recently but plainly has not sunk in):
Leviticus 19:15-18 English Standard Version (ESV) 15 "You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. 16 You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life[a] of your neighbor: I am the LORD. 17 "You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. Footnotes: Leviticus 19:16 Hebrew blood
F/N 6: I see you are riding the Bayesianism horse these days. As I pointed out here on in another thread, that issue has long since been thrashed out here at UD [with a statistics professor] and the net result is as is in my always linked on the Caputo case and related matters, onward linked from there. namely, the approach that analyses on the question, how likely and reasonable is it that one would catch a needle in this haystack by chance -- as opposed to by intelligently directed intent, decision, plan and action -- is still legitimate:
the “elimination” approach rests on the well known, easily observed principle of the valid form of the layman’s “law of averages.” Namely, that in a “sufficiently” and “realistically” large [i.e. not so large that it is unable or very unlikely to be instantiated] sample, wide fluctuations from “typical” values characteristic of predominant clusters, are very rarely observed. [For instance, if one tosses a "fair" coin 500 times, it is most unlikely that one would by chance go far from a 50-50 split that would be in no apparent order. So if the observed pattern turns out to be ASCII code for a message or to be nearly all-heads or alternating heads and tails, or the like, then it is most likely NOT to have been by chance . . . ] . . .
--> The whole inference to design pivots on identifying that for a sufficiently complex entity, to find it in a config E from a specific and narrow, UNrepresentative zone T in a space of possibilities W, such that the relevant PTQS resources of our solar system or the observed cosmos are grossly inadequate to get to the atypical by chance, is a strong sign that neither chance nor necessity nor both in combination suffices to explain. That leaves design as the credible best explanation. But then in a previous thread you seemed to be unwilling to accept that the discovery of a 196 character ASCII code copyright notice, wold be enough of such an oddity to point to intelligent design as best explanation. That tells me that you have exerted selective hyperskepticism and have closed your mind even in the teeth of argument and pleas to reconsider, with grave moral import -- i.e. I here raise the intellectual virtues and duties of care approach to epistemology. It is a serious Rom 1:18 - 32 and Eph 4:17 - 19 matter when one fails to adequately address duties of care on what one knows or should know on such serious matters, if you pardon some direct references.kairosfocus
August 15, 2011
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The reason there are various evils in this world, the vast majority of which humans are the authors of, is that this is not heaven, and our bodies are temporary. In my opinion, only reincarnation with a long learning process for souls makes sense, but either way, we are here to make choices. As Genesis states, we are in a process of knowing good and evil. Considering the other use of the word "knowing" in the OT, as in," Adam knaew his wife and she conceived", I would say this indicates an intimate relationship, up close and personal, with good and evil. It is not God's intention to put us in a playpen, but to put us in a situation of soul growth. If this were heaven and/or were the only life we have, it might make sense to wonder why we have unpleasant life forms. This level of reality, beautiful as it is, works upon a principle of life forms eating other life forms. And in order for nature to be in balance, all life forms must have restricting entities or situations. This life is so mesmerizing that even religious people have a hard time really integrating into their worldview that this life is not about permanence. We are eternal beings, so even though life is terribly sad sometimes, we should never lose heart.avocationist
August 14, 2011
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At the same time, if the treasure really does exist and it is buried in the front yard, but you're digging up the back yard, are you really getting any closer to finding it?Ilion
August 14, 2011
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It's like searching for a buried treasure that may or may not exist. You can dig lots of holes. The more holes you dig, are you getting closer to the treasure? Yes, if you assume it exists. And you can't know that it's there unless you find it. That's OOL research - digging lots of holes hoping to find something and making a fuss every time someone turns up a penny or a bottle cap. You can't say they're making progress because you can't know whether what they're looking for is there to be found. I'm not saying don't look. I'm saying that living cells self-organizing from dead chemicals is as preposterous as it gets, and no one should take it more seriously than a Garfield comic unless someone strikes gold, lots of it.ScottAndrews
August 14, 2011
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You do know what you are modeling, and the way you test your model is by seeing whether it a) accounts for the data and b) whether it predicts new data. In the case of OOL, you are modeling the Origin of Life on earth - how it came about. The models have to fit the data we have regarding conditions on early earth, and of course, the postulated molecules have to work - they have to catalyse their own self-replication, for instance.
ID is testable. It can be tested against any number of objects of known origin with predictable results.
Some ID hypotheses are. Which ones did you have in mind?Elizabeth Liddle
August 14, 2011
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Dr Liddle, Quick point:
RE: I have read the epilogue. I also note that the book is was written almost thirty years ago. OOL research has made vast progress since then.
Of course it is 25 years old. That is the point I was making. From the very beginning of the modern design theory, it has been acknowledged openly that the scien6tific evide3nce does not warrant us in trying to claim scientific identification of the designer of life as within or beyond the cosmos. Did you not notice that I specifically said -- again -- that a molecular nanotech lab a few generations beyond Venter could probably do it? I did not point to TMLO as a report on the state of the art on OOL, though it is good for revealing that the same issues are still around, hardy perennials. On that last question, I pointed to a very recent exchange of two leading OOL scientists, Orgel and Shapiro, and their mutual deadlock. THAT has not changed in the past several years -- headlines and 'net talking points notwithstanding -- either. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 14, 2011
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there are some good models, but all have some problems. Those problems are the subject of current research.
How do you know whether a model is good without knowing what you are modeling? How can you tell if it has a problem? That's just an elaborate way of making it sound as if the completely unknown has been quantified. Make all the models you want.
if an ID hypothesis is to be science, it needs to propose and fit actual testable models, not merely draw supprt from the lack of alternative models.
ID is testable. It can be tested against any number of objects of known origin with predictable results. But when applied to any object of unknown origin, logic gets left behind and the inference is discarded. The lack of alternative models is not to be trivialized. ID aside, OOL research has given no reason to be taken seriously.ScottAndrews
August 14, 2011
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Oh I like to surprise.Elizabeth Liddle
August 14, 2011
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Thought you might :) Not that there ever was any "passive aggression". It's not really my style.Elizabeth Liddle
August 14, 2011
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ScottAndrews: There's a problem here vis a vis the scientific method: Science fits models to data. It retains models with a good fit in favour of models with a poorer fit. If no models have a good fit, the only scientific conclusion is "we do not have a model for this" i.e. "we do not know". If a research program has models that are proving an increasingly good fit to data, then progress is being made towards a good model. If those models still have major problems, then whether progress is still being made depends on whether there are any candidate solutions, or classes of solution, that might solve those problems. Right now, that seems to be where OOL is - there are some good models, but all have some problems. Those problems are the subject of current research. As are the development of rival models, also with some problems but problems that may in the end prove more tractable. Only continued research will tell. Scientists do not draw conclusions simply from lack of a model (apart from the conclusion "we don't know"), only from models. You may, of course, draw conclusions from science's lack of models, but it's a dicey kind of conclusion because it's dependent on the continued absence of a good model,and it isn't science (not that everything has to be). But this is why, if an ID hypothesis is to be science, it needs to propose and fit actual testable models, not merely draw supprt from the lack of alternative models.Elizabeth Liddle
August 14, 2011
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Actually, a better analogy would be a forensic investigation, where you keep finding bits of evidence consistent with a hypothesis, and none that contraindicates the hypothesis. At what point can you take the case to the jury?Petrushka
August 14, 2011
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Well said. The expected attempt at rebuttal would be in the form of a question begged, such as "well, evolution has no idea of the outcome, but it certainly makes some progress."CannuckianYankee
August 14, 2011
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Elizabeth
the book is was written almost thirty years ago. OOL research has made vast progress since then.
How can it be known whether OOL is making progress without knowing in advance what the outcome of that research will be? If there is a "natural" cause for the origin of life and it lies in a direction being researched, then they are making progress. Otherwise they are not. It's a bit like sailing off in search of an island when you don't know know whether it exists or where it is. You find it or you don't. You can't claim 'vast progress' without assuming your conclusion.ScottAndrews
August 14, 2011
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... by which I further meant: no small feat.Ilion
August 14, 2011
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... also: I can appreciate snark; snark is actually an upgrade from passive-aggression.Ilion
August 14, 2011
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Still, you did manage to ignore the *point* of my post.Ilion
August 14, 2011
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EL: "Ilion, your presumably satirically intended emendation of my post makes no sense ..." What an odd objection, coming form a person who made a senseless emendation of one of my posts. "I’m guessing you are a very young man?" Gee! I was expected you to say the more common: "I'll bet you need to get laid", as that seems to be the all-purpose passive-aggressive "explanation" preferred by women and feminized men.Ilion
August 14, 2011
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Ilion, your presumably satirically intended emendation of my post makes no sense, unless you have a very limited view of the kinds of sex that are compatible with love. I'm guessing you are a very young man? (Not passive aggression there, just irresistable snark :))Elizabeth Liddle
August 14, 2011
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Lizzie, You said: "How can an undirected process have a direction? Which is not, as Barry claimed in the case of my phrase “un-intentional design”, an oxymoron, although it may seem so at first glance. For example, we do not (as sophisticated humans) consider a stone “directed” by some agent when it falls to the ground, even though we can predict with confidence that it will go down not up. However, we can also predict, with confidence, that if a population of self-replicators replicates with heritable variation in the ability to thrive in their current environment, that population will “move” towards a state in which most of its members are well adapted to thrive in that environment. There is no “pre-set goal” but what there is, is an attractor basin, that acts somewhat like a centre of gravity in that the population will “flow” towards the “bottom” of the basin (or, in the more common, but confusing, imagery of population genetics, will “climb” towards “fitness” peaks). In other words the process, though undirected,has direction. Like a puddle of water overflowing down an earthy bank, it has no “pre-set” goal, and might one of many routes, but it will always flow down (Incidentally this lies at the heart of the rebuttal of the 2LoT arguments against Darwinian evolution – adaptation is a lower energy state, not a higher one.)" Indeed. That is why in vjtorley's quiz I objected to his formulation of ID and could not really say to what extent I support it. He said: "Minimal Definition of Intelligent Design: The idea that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, and not by an undirected process." My (clumsily worded) objection: "Why is the only choice presented intelligent cause vs. undirected process? It is possible that all processes in the universe are directed, (perhaps excluding quantum effects) yet many if not all may well be undirected by any intelligence." You hit the nail on the head, and more effectively than my attempt that more like hit my own thumb. One of my pet gripes in these discussions is the repeated assertion that evolution is undirected. Nothing could be further from the truth. Evolution is extremely directed, both by the environment in which the evolving population exists, as well as by the evolving population itself. If it wasn't directed, the evolved organisms wouldn't have the appearance of exquisite design, they would be chaotic, random, and most likely dead. The million dollar (giving away my age here, lol) question in this debate is not if evolution is directed, it is if evolution is *consciously* directed. fGfaded_Glory
August 14, 2011
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lpadron:
But non ID’ers run the risk of relying on a single theory or mechanism that may overlook instances of intent/design even when obvious. By not answering the same questions evidence contrary to the theory may be forced to fit the theory whether it actually fits or not. In this case too, progress is halted as well and we’d be none the wiser.
Indeed. But my own view is that if people are postulating "intention" then that concept needs very careful unpacking. Cognitive neuroscientists may be able to help :)Elizabeth Liddle
August 14, 2011
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EL: "What bothers me, though, when people assign the origin of the principle to a Creator God is the baggage that it then acquires. Instead of merely loving our neighbours (as will benefit the common good) we start to judge them by what we discern as the specific “oughts” (what my son used to refer to as “have to’s” as in “is it a have-to, Mum?”) decreed by said Creator. Like who you can have sex with [use as a masturbatory device] and how, regardless of any question of love [lust]." Now, there is a unique objection to God!Ilion
August 14, 2011
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Blue Savannah, We certainly can't say "complexity = design". Genetic algorithms and software implementing it have shown that complexity can spring out of behaviour very much aking to boilogical evolution. For example, I recall many years ago seeing an electronic circuit being designed by genetic algorithm software such that the circuit could solve cubic equations. The circuit had a subcircuit that appeared disconnected from the rest of the circuit. Yet when the disconnected subcircuit was removed the circuit as a whole could not solve cubic equations. Last I heard - though it was many years ago - at the time we still didn't know why or how the subcircuit allowed the rest to work.Grunty
August 14, 2011
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Barry Arrington, "The Edge of Evolution" wasn't research, it was an overview of Mike Behe's own opinions - rather akin to "The Blind Watchmaker". In fact, my recollection of "Edge" is that Mike Behe didn't even say exactly where he thought the edge of evolution was (somewhere between species and genus, I think, but it was rather vague). There certainly wasn't any "research" showing such evolution couldn't happen over trillions of generations. I submit there hasn't been any.Grunty
August 14, 2011
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I see it nests a response within the comment box -- is there a way that we have say a dotted number like 85.1, then 85.1.1 as the thread number? Numbers really help with long threads like tends to happen at UD.kairosfocus
August 14, 2011
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Dr Liddle: I am trying the new reply option. Please, look again at the emotional colour on your phrasing above. It is significant and revealing. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 14, 2011
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The misinformation behind OOL research by legacy media and popular science magazines is overwhelming. So many cling their hopes and dreams on the just-around-the-corner research. It is coming I swear. Like the dead beat dad who promises to show up to your little league game every weekend. And every weekend you stare longingly from right field, just for a glimpse but nothing. Nothing. Next weekend. I'm coming. I swear. No really next weekend. Decades pass and your a miserable heroin addict and the OOL chemistry still doesn't work.junkdnaforlife
August 14, 2011
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Dr. Liddle, 1. Thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions in light of all the other posts you're fielding. 2. It seems to me that the questions you pose regarding possible method and identity of a designer are also important for your camp to consider. By not giving careful consideration to what the designer may be like or methods he may have used to design living things ID runs the risk of saying nothing of substance and/or halting progress altogether. But non ID'ers run the risk of relying on a single theory or mechanism that may overlook instances of intent/design even when obvious. By not answering the same questions evidence contrary to the theory may be forced to fit the theory whether it actually fits or not. In this case too, progress is halted as well and we'd be none the wiser. 3. Finally, I sympathize with the idea that the fingerprints we may see are not like those expected from an omnipotent, omnibenevolent or omniscient designer. But then, he/she need not be any of those. He/she just needs to be smarter than you or I. That kind of ties in to point #2 above. Have a terrific day!lpadron
August 14, 2011
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Let’s go over this one more time, for record. First, have you ever read TMLO, and in particular, the epilogue? As, you have been asked to do, any number of times?
Yes, I have read the epilogue. I also note that the book is was written almost thirty years ago. OOL research has made vast progress since then. If you have access there is a very nice review of the state of the domain in this week's New Scientist.
If you do so, you will see that there is — from the very first technical ID book [1984!], a consistent confinement of scientific reasoning to that which is based on empirical warrant from observable signs, on inference to best explanation for origins matters. In particular, the evidence is able to support an inference to design as process on a scientific basis, but onward discussion of identity of designers is a worldviews level project; i.e. a philosophical exercise.
Abductive reasoning is closely related to Bayesian inference, and subject to the same constraints: what is the "best explanation" depends on your priors. Priors change with new information, or should. Positing a completely novel and uncharacterised causal agent means positing a factor for which priors are impossible to compute. I do not think it is valid to infer an ID using this method.
That is plainly a legitimate exercise — and one far more readily supported by the cosmological side of design theory [that's why there is that joke about astrophysicists rushing out from their observatories, to get baptised into the First Church of God, Big Bang during the lunch hour meditation on monkeying with the physics fine tuning led by agnostic Sir Fred Hoyle . . . ] — but that is an exercise that is far broader than the proper focus of exploring the empirical evidence and best explanation on the signs we observe in cell based life and its traces in the fossil record. I must note as well that the tone of your cited remarks shows an evident hostility to “an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God.” I suggest that you reflect on whether that evident hostility could be blinding you to the actual balance of the evidence. Or, in the words of Jesus to some of the people of Judaea in his day: Jn 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word . . . 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
Well, no, as I said above. And I speak as one with a deep love of the Gospel of John.
Now, let us turn back to focus on the scientific question. The summary of the matter on OOL is much as I have repeatedly pointed out to you over months, and WHICH YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY IGNORED OR BRUSHED ASIDE. Namely, that the origin of life on earth based on Carbon chemistry in the cell, through molecular nanomachines appears — on the work of Venter et al — can be explained on a nanotech lab a few technology generations beyond where Venter is now. That is one context in which the issue of inference to a designer within or beyond the cosmos is a worldviews level inference, not an exercise of science. Which does not render the exercise illegitimate, it simply recognises that it goes beyond what science can properly do.
No, I have not brushed it aside. I simply cannot parse what you are saying.
We all have a privilege, a right and even a duty to ask and seek answers for such big questions. Back to science. What the science on signs of life in living forms warrants is the inference to design as process: That Tweredun. Whodunit, is a much broader forensic-historical exercise on all sorts of issues and clues, or even a personal relationship exercise based on actual answered prayer or the like.
Nicely put, but this, as I see it, is the heart of the problem. I do not believe you can separate Tweredun from Whodunit. You need some kind of prior on Whodunit (or what kind of who) in order to arrive at a reasonable inference that it Tweredun. Ironically, Barry, on the "progress" thread, rejoices that I have made a CSI inference (i.e. a frequentist one). No, I have not, I have made a Bayesian one. The kind you specifically commend. And yet you seem not to recognise that a Bayesian inference requires priors on the Whodunit as well as on the Tweredun. You cannot separate the two. IMO.
If I were embarking on the latter, I would pause to note that the evident design of life fits into a cosmos where we see that from key foundational parameters and laws, it is fine tuned for life, and also credibly had a beginning.
Possibly. I don't think so, but possibly.
That is the only observed cosmos we have, is contingent. It is not self-explanatory, it did not suddenly emerge form a genuine nothing, it depends on necessary causal factors that are external to it.
Well, this is an assertion. I query it.
Taking the two together, and even through a multiverse speculation, we are looking at design by a powerful, intelligent, purposeful architect of the cosmos who is a necessary being, one that evidently had life in mind from the outset. That is not yet an omnipotent, omniscient Creator, but it is consistent with it.
OK.
As to omnibenevolent, we find ourselves objectively bound by ought, starting with our sense that we have rights and OUGHT to be treated fairly. Those who object to evils and to evil, imply much the same.
OK - you mean that because we have morality, that morality must have come from the Intelligent Creator? But it's one thing to have a sense of "ought" - it's quite another to have a sense of what that "ought" should be. And in neither case do we need to invoke a benign Creator, even if we had evidence for one, and, indeed, trying to derive what we ought (i.e. ethics), as opposed to the principle that some things are things we ought to do and some things are things we ought not to do (i.e. morality)- well, I don't see how you reliably derive those from your Intelligent Creator anyway. Love, maybe. But what is prescribed by theists in the name of love often looks far from love to me.
Notice, we are here looking at ethics, a non-scientific, worldviews level topic.
OK.
Now, too, we observe that Hume’s guillotine points to an IS-OUGHT gap. That gap must be bridged somehow, if we are to have a comprehensive, credible worldview. The only way to do that is to have a foundational is in a worldview that answers to the empirical evidence as above, and at the same time provides an IS capable of carrying the weight of OUGHT. Where, for sure, evolutionary materialism cannot do so, as matter, energy, space, time and blind forces of chance and necessity plainly have in them no ises that can lead to a real ought, only to prudence or “what can I get away with.” This extends to any monist system, including pantheistic ones.
Well, no. It doesn't.
Given the Eutyphro dilemma that challenges any claimed root of being which does not inherently enfold such a foundation for ought, the only credible worldview foundational IS that can bear OUGHT — notice the summary inference to best explanation across major live options — is an inherently good Creator God who would make a cosmos in which his character is stamped.
So why make bacterial flagella to help hurt babies? Why help malaria parasites to resist human medicine? What is "inherently good" about this guy?
Such a cosmos could then have in it a class of beings that in order to be capable of virtue, thought he power to choose and to love, must have significant freedom of choice. Such creatures will be morally governed, i.e. they will fall under the power of ought, stamped in in conscience etc. (And that BTW is the answer to the so-called problem of evil too, there is demonstrably no contradiction involved in such an inherently good creator opening up a world in which love is possible.)
Sure. I agree that a universe in which love is possible is worth our admiration. Including the love that inspires people to develop chloroquine to try to heal people of malaria. I don't see that coming from your Creator God though, who seems to have actively tried to thwart it. I do see it coming about through evolution.
I suggest you read the introductory discussion here, and that here too. Do, read both in context. G’day GEM of TKI
From your second link: "That intelligible moral principle is then implanted inextricably in our very nature as human beings...." I see plenty of reason to think that "that intelligible moral principle" was "implanted inextricably in our very nature" by good old Darwinian evolution (the selective advantage of empathy), and elevated to the status of an abstract "principle" by virtue of our (evolved) capacity for abstact thought. Obviously you will disagree. What bothers me, though, when people assign the origin of the principle to a Creator God is the baggage that it then acquires. Instead of merely loving our neighbours (as will benefit the common good) we start to judge them by what we discern as the specific "oughts" (what my son used to refer to as "have to's" as in "is it a have-to, Mum?") decreed by said Creator. Like who you can have sex with and how, regardless of any question of love. In my view, secular ethics provides a much sounder and much more objective foundation for morality than the authority of an allegedly "God-breathed" book. Anyway, though we profoundly disagree on a lot, clearly, as always, I appreciate the effort you put into your responses to me :) Thanks. LizzieElizabeth Liddle
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