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Dinesh D’Souza speaks out against ID

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In reading Dinesh D’Souza’s WHAT’S SO GREAT ABOUT CHRISTIANITY, I was surprised at how uncritical and historically uninformed is his view of evolution. For instance, he lumped C. S. Lewis with other notable 20th century Christian intellectuals as accepting evolutionary theory, but in fact toward the end of his life, Lewis regretted his earlier support for evolution (go here).

With even less apparent knowledge of his subject, D’Souza is now weighing in against intelligent design:

The Failure of “Intelligent Design”
Posted Mar 31st 2008 9:38AM by Dinesh D’Souza
Filed under: Science, Christianity, Atheism

. . . Today some Christians may be heading down the same path with their embrace of “intelligent design” or ID. This movement is based on the idea that Darwinian evolution is not only flawed but basically fraudulent. ID should not, however, be confused with bible-thumping six-day creationism. It does not regard the earth as 6,000 years old. Its leading advocates are legal scholar Phillip Johnson, biochemist Michael Behe, mathematician David Berlinski, and science journalist Jonathan Wells. Berlinski has a new book out The Devil’s Advocate that makes the remarkable claim that “Darwin’s theory of evolution has little to contribute to the content of the sciences.” Ben Stein’s movie “Expelled” provides horror stories to show that the case for ID as well as critiques of evolution from an ID perspective are routinely excluded or censored in the halls of academe.

ID advocates have sought to convince courts to require that their work be taught alongside Darwinian evolution, yet such efforts have been resoundingly defeated. Why has the ID legal strategy proven to be such a failure, even at the hands of conservative judges? Imagine that a group of advocates challenged Einstein’s theories of general and special relativity. Let’s say that this group, made up of a law professor, a couple of physicists, several journalists, as well as some divinity school graduates, flatly denies Einstein’s proposition that e=mc2.

How would a judge, who is not a physicist, resolve the group’s demand for inclusion in the physics classroom? He would summon a wide cross-section of leading physicists. They would inform him that despite unresolved debates about relativity–for example, its unexplained relationship to quantum theory–Einstein’s theories are supported by a wide body of data. They enjoy near-unanimous support in the physics community worldwide. There is no alternative scientific theory that comes close to explaining the facts at hand. In such a situation any judge would promptly show the dissenters the door and deny their demand for equal time in the classroom. This is precisely the predicament of the ID movement. . . .

MORE

What an incredible comparison. D’Souza here gives no evidence of knowing even the rudiments of the debate over ID — he merely repeats the worst propaganda against ID. I encourage anyone who has personal contact with him to provide him with better information. A point of leverage is that D’Souza presumably wants Christians, many of whom support ID, to buy his book.

Comments
1.) View Point... 2.) [...]another viewpoint on this topic...apartments Fenway
July 27, 2011
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[...] (In his review of Expelled, Dinesh D’Souza appears to be using arguments from Intelligent Design - despite his previous apparent opposition.)—————- [...]Reviews of Stein in Expelled | Uncommon Descent
April 21, 2008
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I agree. D'Souza should have stuck to his field of expertise, and not talked a lot of ignorant nonsense. It's a sad thing about many Christian apologists: they see right through the materialistic bias in their own areas of expertise, but just accept the establishment views in other areas, ignorant of the materialistic views rampant in those areas as well. The same is true of many ID apologists, alas. Bill Dembski is great at mathematical evidence against biological evolution, which is right up his alley. But he is not an expert in geology, and he just swallows geological evolution, apparently ignoring the materialistic presuppositions behind the evolutionary geological views. E.g. In 1785, before examining the evidence, the deist James Hutton, ‘the Founder of Modern Geology’, proclaimed: ‘the past history of our globe must be explained by what can be seen to be happening now … No powers are to be employed that are not natural to the globe, no action to be admitted except those of which we know the principle’ (emphasis added) This is a decree that special creation and the Flood are inadmissible explanations for the geological record. And when it comes to biblical exegesis, it is hard to believe that Bill knows better than most the Church Fathers and all Reformers, who all believed that Scripture teaches creation in six normal-length creation days. And even the Fathers who allegorized the days still taught a young earth (see The Early Church & the Age of the Earth). I hope this frustration with D'Souza pontificating outside his field to glibly accept materialist biology will make ID proponents less eager to accept materialist geology.Jonathan Sarfati
April 14, 2008
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DaveScot, (163) That's a fascinating theory of the mechanism of erosion of Mount Everest. Did you come up with that one on your own, or did you find that one in a geology text or article somewhere? (162) It sounds like you don't believe that there is any reason to doubt the standard geologic timescale, and that people like me can only harbor highly contrived doubts. Perhaps we are all just ignorant, stupid, insane, or wicked. In that case the less I say about the subject, the better. However, I hope you don't mind some of us benighted folk commenting about intelligent design, as long as we take care not to sound too stupid or ignorant.Paul Giem
April 7, 2008
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----"Are you implying that I do? I constantly read the literature from those who are anti-ID as well as those who are pro-ID. I often find I learn more when I read the anti-ID people. One could get schizophrenic reading all these contradictory books." No, the comment was solely autobiographical.StephenB
April 6, 2008
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Dave, A question and a comment about Lewontin. What is the significance of the Lewontin article posted under "Additional Dissent?" In the NY Times Book Review of a Sagan book where Lewontin made the comment you mentioned above, he capitalized "Divine." Maybe that was due to an editor but it is an interesting twist.jerry
April 6, 2008
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StephenB, I have not seen one author that objects to what I have concluded, certainly not Behe, Dembski or Wells. Have you any to suggest? I do not think Sanford's book has anything to do with what I have said. Can you tell me which part of it is relevant" "but it is perfectly reasonable to question the interpretive comment that follows." What interpretive comments are you referring to? Has any one shown evidence to question the comments you are referring to? I would be interested. "With regard to Denton, Johnson, Wells, and everyone that followed, I don’t accept every word from every author that I read. " Are you implying that I do? I constantly read the literature from those who are anti-ID as well as those who are pro-ID. I often find I learn more when I read the anti-ID people. One could get schizophrenic reading all these contradictory books.jerry
April 6, 2008
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-----Jerry: "Anyone familiar with Denton’s first book would not question anything I said on this thread or any other thread about Darwinian processes (Darwin’s special theory) and the source of most species." That's quite a statement inasmuch as the book was written twenty years ago. -----"I started reading Denton again when Salvador objected to what I was saying and he used it as a backup for his comments. It turns out Denton supported everything I had said. So it is apparent that a lot of people here are not familiar with what Denton has said." Did you follow up with Sanford's book? -----"But I am glad to know that you will support my position that to criticize rv + ns (really variation generation and genetics) in total is nonsense and that most of life is due to these Darwinian special theory processes." Clearly, it is nonsense to criticize your point about rv+ns, but it is perfectly reasonable to question the interpretive comment that follows. With regard to Denton, Johnson, Wells, and everyone that followed, I don’t accept every word from every author that I read. Further, I get both sides of every issue and weight the merits accordingly. Otherwise, I would fall into the danger of judging everything I read in the context of my own pet paradigm. I have fallen into that trap more than once and there is always a danger that I will do it again. It may surprise you that someone as opinionated as me would say that, but I believe it to be true. As Abraham Maslow once said, “If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.”StephenB
April 6, 2008
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StephenB, you said "Jerry, I am familiar with Denton." Anyone familiar with Denton's first book would not question anything I said on this thread or any other thread about Darwinian processes (Darwin's special theory) and the source of most species. I started reading Denton again when Salvador objected to what I was saying and he used it as a backup for his comments. It turns out Denton supported everything I had said. So it is apparent that a lot of people here are not familiar with what Denton has said. But I am glad to know that you will support my position that to criticize rv + ns (really variation generation and genetics) in total is nonsense and that most of life is due to these Darwinian special theory processes.jerry
April 6, 2008
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Paul The top of Everest doesn't erode by weathering. It's protected from the weather by permanent ice cover. It erodes by crumbling under the force of gravity. If you take two sheets of semi-rigid material and force them together laterally they will relieve the strain by bending and breaking piling the excess material upward. As the pile grows larger it becomes more and more unstable until gravity starts causing it to collapse. The collapse doesn't necessarily occur from the top down. It occurs from the point where the strain exceeds the strength of the material. The lower portions of the mountain are under the most strain from the weight of the material above it. When the weight exceeds the ability to hold it up the sides will collapse outward and the top will move downward but will still remain on top. Look at how the world trade center collapsed on 9/11. The top of the structure remained at the top of the pile after the collapse. The bottom exploded outward while the top fell straight downward. There's no mystery at all in there being marine sediments on top of Mt. Everest. It's shielded from weathering and collapse due to gravity happens in such a way that the topmost material remains the topmost material. DaveScot
April 6, 2008
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Rick re; engineering of life by material means I don't think we know enough about the basis for sentience to make any reasonable conclusions which is why I avoid the subject. I don't believe the same holds true for simple forms of life that don't exhibit any hallmarks of mind or free will. It appears to me that with reasonable maturation of biochemistry knowledge and tools that human technology will be capable of producing a functional bacteria from inanimate matter. That said, there is an inescapable fact that when the material associated with sentience is absent or dysfunctional (i.e. the brain is sufficiently damaged) there is no longer any detectable sentience. Does that mean the sentience is gone or does it just mean that we are no longer able to detect it? I don't know the answer to that. In my more philosophical moments I sometimes offer an analogy between the brain and a radio. A radio works by extracting the intelligence from invisible electromagnetic carrier waves and making it audible so that we can hear it. If you destroy the radio you only destroy a tuner - the intelligence remains in the electromagnetic carrier waves but you can no longer detect it. Maybe brains are like radios and they merely serve as tuners for intelligence rather than as sources of intelligence. re; reasonable doubt about the methods for dating the age of the earth I don't believe there is any reasonable doubt. There are only highly contrived doubts. Dissimilar methods of dating all come up with relatively consistent approximations of age. When we fold in dating of the universe by yet other dissimilar means the results remain consistent with the age of the earth. There is no consistency in the ways that doubt are brought into all these methods. Each dating method must be individually targeted by some contrived means. While one might cast some doubt on each in a case by case basis it becomes unreasonable to suppose that all disparate methods are wrong. For instance, young earthers have to cast doubt on the speed of light being a constant across time and space. They have to cast doubt on rates of radioactive decay being constants. They have to propose that mountain uplift happened orders of magnitudes faster in the past than is observed in the present. They have to say that continential plate movement was vastly accelerated in the past. Etcetera and etcetera. And there's no reason to doubt any of these except to make the evidence somehow fit into a young earth theory which no one would propose in the first place except for literal interpretation of one amongst many revealed religious texts. If the old testament claimed that God created the earth over a span of billions of years there is not a shred of doubt in my mind that the same scientists who try to cast doubt on various aging methods would hold those same aging methods out as indisputable evidence of biblical inerrancy. DaveScot
April 6, 2008
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-----Jerry: "You should read Denton’s Evolution: A theory in crisis. It must be the source for my thoughts since I read it some time ago and as I re read it, Denton is emphasizing what I am saying. Like a lot of things you read, you pick up things and cannot remember where." Jerry, I am familiar with Denton. I have done the requisite reading on evolution. I will save this issue for another forum. My point has to do with making this subject matter accessible to the uninitiated.StephenB
April 5, 2008
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@138: Is it your position that when a bacteria divides to form another bacteria that there is something supernatural going on? As far as I can tell it’s complex, not completely understood at this time in every detail, but there’s no evidence of anything supernatural in the process.
I would expect that bacterial reproduction occurs according to natural law, just like anything we commonly observe. I would say that's the basis of science, and I wouldn't deny the theoretical possibility of an advanced and highly intelligent, though material, being, having the ability to engineer a bacterium. On the other hand, I was thinking more in terms of the human mind and personality. If I had an identical twin, he would nevertheless not share my identity, no matter how great the sympathy between us might be. We would still be distinct people. Do we know enough about personal identity to be able to claim that it can be reduced to merely physical elements? I would highly doubt it. But without that certainty, how can one be confident that any material agent, no matter how advanced, could produce it?
@139: What evidence is there to cause reasonable doubt they actually have been going on for far longer than 6000 years?
I'll leave it to others to deal with the particulars on this; however, my own brief response is this. I suspect we all know that there are scientists who, based on their own research and that of their colleagues, doubt the conventional age of the earth. It would seem, then, that either their doubt is unreasonable or that there is justifiable cause to think the methods by which the conventional age is ascertained are unreliable. Because it might not be taken for granted, I should be clear that it seems evident to me that a person can be both reasonable and mistaken. For instance, on the question of universal descent from a common ancestor, Drs. Behe and Wells are not both correct; however, I suspect both would be considered reasonable in the positions they hold: they merely interpret the data in different ways.RickToews
April 5, 2008
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DaveScot (149) I understand your disagreement with a greatly accelerated rate of mountain building for Mount Everest in the past. The rates required by a short-age theory are so much faster than current rates that we find it hard to imagine them. However, we still have a problem with the standard picture. If the rate of erosion on Mount Everest has been measured correctly at between 2 and 3 mm per year, and has been constant, and Mt. Everest has been there for at lest 35 million years, then approximately 70 to 105 km of material has been eroded from the top. One can keep renewing the material from the bottom, but in that case the peak of Mount Everest should be granite and not Paleozoic limestone as is currently observed. It is not clear why this limestone has not been eroded away given the standard geologic timescale. But I do agree with you about one point. The connection between geologic time and ID is either non-existent or convoluted and difficult to prove. I am quite happy to make the case for ID without reference to time, except as a limiting factor. That means that despite our differing views on some subjects, we can unite on the subject of ID.Paul Giem
April 5, 2008
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-----Paul Giem: "And chasing away YEC’s won’t make ID any more persuasive. If D’Souza wants a long-age ID option, he should already be aware of it, and if he isn’t, it should not take too much to inform him. D’Souza is well aware that there are differing perspectives within both sides of most issues." Paul, I agree with that. I would go one step further and suggest that they should not be regarded as second class citizens. Anyone who can identify with the design inference belongs here. I question the mind set that wants to flirt with TEs and snub YEC's. YEC's are not writing anti-ID articles and persecuting ID scientists.StephenB
April 5, 2008
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jerry, (147) You said, "The elbow in the chain can be explained by the crashing of the India plate into the Asia plate about 45 million years ago. I presume you are using the term "crashing" very loosely, as the movements involved, under the standard geological timescale, involve speeds on the order of 1-16 cm per year. (On the other hand, a short-age chronology would imply that the movements were of the order of 10 meters per second, and crashing would be a very appropriate term.) Your statement that "Maybe there will be a better explanation some day and that is science." suggests that maybe that explanation isn't a good one after all, and my question would then remain. I don't expect to convince you right now. I just ask that you avoid dogmatism. Your observations on the terrain of the Hawaiian Islands and the Society Islands are reasonably accurate. The only question I have is what effect a flood with its accompanying weather would have on the terrain. I accept the fit between South America and Africa. The question is not so much what as when and how fast. It may surprise you, but I accept (at present, subject to revision) that the rest of the universe is old. That requires reinterpretation of two words in one verse. That, to my mind, is much easier than ignoring or reinterpreting the first quarter of Genesis, parts of Exodus including the fourth (third for Catholics) commandment, Jesus' comments regarding marriage, Romans 5, etc. (That does not mean that I wouldn't try if I felt it was really necessary. But I just haven't had the need to do so, especially when I keep running into good reasons to believe a short chronology.) Your comments about the slow speed of geologic change at present are accurate. But geologist have to be careful not to shut their minds against the possibility of rapid change. That close-minded attitude led to their being unable to recognize the evidence for massive flooding in the Pacific Northwest (of the U.S.) for several decades after J Harlan Bretz first realized what was happening, evidence that seem obvious to us now. Your statement that "Everything is consistent with an old earth that forms slowly over a long time period." seems overly optimistic. Besides the problem of Mount Everest (see my next comment), there is the matter of carbon-14 in fossil carbon, which does not have a convincing explanation from the point of view of the standard geologic timescale at present. An explanation may be forthcoming, but at present, long-agers must exercise faith here. You are right, that few consider geology an issue here. That's because they believe that it has little (you, 152) or nothing (probably Dave, 150) to do with design detection. It could have something to do with design detection if one could make a concise, readily apparent, and convincing argument for short age, as evolution, and thus materialism, would completely fall apart without long ages. But such arguments as there are for short age are involved, require dealing with a mass of counterarguments, and are not the simplest way to break the back of materialism. That is one reason why, even as they grumble about the incompleteness of ID, most YEC's are happy to cooperate with you if you will let them. Finally we come to the real question. "So what is D’Souza to think?" D'Souza is to think what he wants. Our goal should not be to do his thinking for him. Give him his options, give him the arguments for ID, and let him make up his own mind. If he is not persuaded, well, that can't be helped. Hopefully someone else will see the persuasiveness of the ID arguments. And chasing away YEC's won't make ID any more persuasive. If D'Souza wants a long-age ID option, he should already be aware of it, and if he isn't, it should not take too much to inform him. D'Souza is well aware that there are differing perspectives within both sides of most issues.Paul Giem
April 5, 2008
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Atom, (146) Technically, you are right. Perhaps the intelligence could have originated spontaneously. But remember what logical branch we are on. The intelligence we are talking about has to be accounted for in materialistic terms (otherwise materialism is already lost). It has to be able to transport life from another star to earth, which has just recently become (possibly) within our capabilities. That means that its complexity, and presumably its order, is at least of the same order of magnitude as ours. While it is theoretically possible that such an intelligent organism could have arisen by chance, the probability of that happening without guidance seems extremely unlikely, just as it is unlikely that life here on earth arose spontaneously. I realize that this is an "argument from incredulity", but I see no reason to believe that there is a form of life that is explained by material causes, that is capable of seeding our planet with our kind of life, and that can reasonably be expected to have arisen spontaneously. That just takes faith at present, and it is too much faith for me. I am not giving a formal proof, like one has in mathematics. I am just doing what I do with the OOL itself, making an inference to the best explanation. It does seem to me that the OOL is best explained by the action of an intelligent agent, and if one grants that, that nature is best explained as not entirely due to material causes.Paul Giem
April 5, 2008
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StephenB, You should read Denton's Evolution: A theory in crisis. It must be the source for my thoughts since I read it some time ago and as I re read it, Denton is emphasizing what I am saying. Like a lot of things you read, you pick up things and cannot remember where. Species is a tough term to define. The interbreeding definition has problems because there are several examples of A breeding with B and B with C but A cannot breed with C. Micro evolution is any change in the genetic elements of a population. If a population gets separated from a parent population, for example a flock of birds end up on a new island, it could change so that it cannot inter breed with the parent population if they ever got together again so we have a new species but with little genetic differences. There are examples of insects on different types of adjacent fruit trees that are identical but won't breed. These have become two different species. There are birds whose only difference is song patterns but they won't breed. But there are the examples of so called different species that can inter breed such as tigers and lions, dogs and wolves, cows and buffalo etc. So far in rereading Denton the most impressive chapter is on typologies. But I am only on Chapter 6. It is a great book. All the classes (taxonomy) are morphological distinct with no transitions existing between them. Within each class there is the possibility of producing new species but they always remain within the class or most likely the various genera within the class. There does not seem to be one example of the new species creation that generates a new genera or family. It is always downward or within but never up. Up would be macro evolution lite and across classes would be true macro evolution. There is always the odd balls within classes such as lung fish, bats and giraffes which have unique attributes but again there are no transitions to indicate where they came from. Then there is the duckbill platypus which is the true odd ball. These represent a different type of macro evolution and where they came from is a mystery. Of course Darwin and Dawkins had just so stories. I am not sure I am answering your question but species generation seems to be always downward or across and contained with the various genera of the class. Where the classes that contain all the orders, families and genera come from or where the odd balls come from is unknown. Someone with a better knowledge of taxonomy may be better able to answer your question completely.jerry
April 5, 2008
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StephenB, To clarify, the phrase you quoted above was my construction, not Jerry's. Jerry originally said way back at #1: "...the Darwinian paradigm explains most of the life on the planet."Phinehas
April 5, 2008
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-----Jerry: “Microevolution is responsible for 99.5% of speciation.” Jerry, could you stretch out on that a little bit more. Most people define microevolution as change within a species and macroevolution as change from one species into another What do you say about those who define speciation as microevolution extended into macroevolution. Relate that to your comment that microevolution is "responsible" for 99.5% of the species.StephenB
April 5, 2008
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Dave, I don't think geology has anything to do with design detection here on earth but geology gets brought up now and then when we discuss the age of the earth. It could theoretically be part of design if someone could come up with how certain geological events were improbable based on law and chance and could thus slip through the EF. Mount Rushmore comes to mind. n science fiction think Death Star and you see the remains a million years later. Or suppose we went to Mars and found a tunnel that had been sculpted.jerry
April 5, 2008
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Phineas, I understand your comments about the misunderstanding of terms. Eric B made the same argument. But I am trying to introduce a new way of understanding that will promote a dialogue with those out there who haven't a clue as to what the issues are. They don't have a problem with Darwin and they are mostly right. So why be so negative about Darwin. He was wrong on the big issue but right on a lot of relevant things. So I believe that those here or anywhere promoting ID should have the same understanding as those they want to convince. Many of Darwin's ideas work and can account for 99.5% + of the life forms, species, total biological matter. Take your pick. That is why Darwin's ideas are so acceptable and reasonable and why it represents a big challenge to ID to communicate clearly what is not reasonable and just plain bogus. But the worst way to convince someone else is to trash something that is obvious and actually true. If instead you start out with how ID agrees with some of Darwin's ideas than it will be easier to get to the parts that Darwin just made up and has no proof. Anyway that is what I believe and will continue to push it and will probably use Darwin's special theory from now on even though most have never heard of it. But it is about time everyone did. It is essential the current modern synthesis without the macro-evolution assumptions.jerry
April 5, 2008
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Jerry re; no discussion of geology here What does geology have to do with design detection? Leo If I show you a piece of gold chain do you need to know where, when, and how the gold was obtained before you agree that the chain's origin is artificial? Does the construction of the chain give us any clues about when, where, how, and who first took the gold out of the ground? Does it even tell us if the raw gold came from one source or many? We're happy enough to ask the questions you want answered but the simple fact of the matter is that design detection doesn't give us the data we need to answer them. Example: we examine DNA and ribosomes in living tissue and reach a design inference. Obviously if it comes from living tissue the object itself isn't very old. Its up to other modes of inquiry and explanation to tell us where and when DNA and ribosomes first appeared.DaveScot
April 5, 2008
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Paul re; Marine sediments on Mt. Everest. The Himalayas are a young range currently uplifting at 5mm per year caused by the collision of the Eurasian and Indo-Australian continental plates. To squeeze 8000 meters of rise into 6000 years requires an uplift of over a meter a year or 300 times faster than the current rate. Of course one can simply claim that the uplift rate was indeed much faster in the past. But that's contrived. All the arguments against an old earth are similarly contrived.DaveScot
April 5, 2008
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jerry said:
It shouldn’t be but it is for many. Read a few of the comments on this thread and gpuccio on another thread thought it was a stupid idea. Maybe it is because the spread of new species and variants takes millions of years in most cases. Or maybe it is because it gives credit to Darwin for something.
I don't want to speak for gpuccio and others, but for me, the terms used make a greate difference. I have absolutely no problem with the following: "Microevolution is responsible for 99.5% of speciation." When you introduce the "Darwinian paradigm," I think it tends to detract from the clarity of the above. I think it is even more problematic to equate "speciation" with "life." But if the above is basically what you meant despite how it was phrased, I'm resonably certain that there are few if any who have an issue with what you meant. Instead, they were reacting to what you actually said.Phinehas
April 5, 2008
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Paul Giem, The elbow in the chain can be explained by the crashing of the India plate into the Asia plate about 45 million years ago. We do not have video tapes of the event but the Himalayas are apparently still rising and plate movements can be measured. Maybe there will be a better explanation some day and that is science. If you go to the Hawaiian islands, there is a distinct difference in appearance between them. The Big Island mountains are essentially bare and much higher while Kauai is a jungle. Similarly the Society Islands which I have also been to. The further to the northwest you get the older the terrain. Bora Bora is much different than Tahiti. Then there is the Atlantic ridge which is still forming and the fit of South America with Africa and the yearly changes can be measured. I am sure there are answers for everything but there is too many things to explain away including the stars. We have four thousand years of history and little has changed geologically but they are changing very slowly in that time period and a lot of it can be measured. Everything is consistent with an old earth that forms slowly over a long time period. We have very little information here on geology because few consider it an issue. But it is interesting that the discussion of it has appeared on a thread about Dinesh D'Souza having little faith in ID and this is the blog for one of the important members promoting the science of ID. It is a little ironic. So what is D'Souza to think?jerry
April 5, 2008
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Paul Giem wrote:
And if we say that life here couldn’t have happened without intelligent guidance, the same would presumably be true of the previous intelligence
I was with you until this line. We can only say that life here required intelligence because we know empirically what life here looks like and is composed of. We wouldn't know if an unknown material designer was contingent, complex, or specified, so we could not presume that what is true about earth replicators is also true of unknown material designers. Now, I'm as much a Theist as you are; I'm an ID-Creationist, in the true sense of the term. But I want to be careful to not let my beliefs color the data or my conclusions...I want to follow the evidence where it leads, but not further. Even if I think space aliens are only a temporary answer (due to the material considerations pointed out above), DaveScot's point is still valid.Atom
April 5, 2008
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kairosfocus, (143) I agree completely. To quote Michael Crichton, "If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period." DaveScot, (140), Your point on where material came from adds further weight to the argument that materialism is incomplete, and dogmatic materialism is wrong. On (1139), your example of the Hawaiian Islands assumes uniformitarianism. While that may be a reasonable first assumption, it is far from proof. Ant the theory does not explain, except in an ad hoc way, the elbow in the chain. On the antarctic ice cores, AFAICT from the literature, the antarctic does not have distinct layers down to the bottom. The layers are estimated from those near the surface, again using uniformitarian assumptions. One gets far better layers from the Greenland ice cores, but even these peter out after thousands of years. And it is indisputable that more than one layer can form, and possible that at the beginning of the ice sheet multiple layers were formed per year. See here for a good discussion. As for erosion, again the argument against short age assumes uniformitarianism. But in this case, the question can be turned around. Why are the mountains still here given the present rates of erosion? For some, like the Rocky Mountains, one can simply keep uplifting them. But for others, like the Alps and Mount Everest, there are difficulties, as they have marine deposits at their peaks. It staggers the imagination how thick the deposits above the current ones must have been in order to erode down to where we are now in the (now) traditional time.Paul Giem
April 5, 2008
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Dave, I have Mike Gene's book but it is in a pile to read. Instead I am re-reading Denton's first book which I read years ago and it makes my point in spades. I have to thank Salvador for citing it against my position when it is an excellent source for my position, the best I have found. I too agree that the debate will be in the genome though I do not know what Mike Gene's position is yet. First Denton, then Gene, then Sanford.jerry
April 5, 2008
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Dave, "I don’t see why that should be very contentious here." It shouldn't be but it is for many. Read a few of the comments on this thread and gpuccio on another thread thought it was a stupid idea. Maybe it is because the spread of new species and variants takes millions of years in most cases. Or maybe it is because it gives credit to Darwin for something.jerry
April 5, 2008
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