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	<title>Comments on: Digital Counters Discovered Controlling Gene Expression</title>
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		<title>By: Jud</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/comment-page-1/#comment-125356</link>
		<dc:creator>Jud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:31:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Apparently the type of &quot;programming&quot; involved in protein assembly isn&#039;t anything you&#039;d want to show your boss if you were a software engineer:  &quot;[O]ne can still understand gene transcription in terms of parallel threads of execution, with the caveat that these threads do not follow canonical, modular subroutine structure. Rather, threads of execution are intertwined in a rather &#039;higgledy-piggledy&#039; fashion, very much like what would be described as a sloppy, unstructured computer program code with lots of GOTO statements zipping in and out of loops and other constructs.&quot;  See http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/17/6/669 .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently the type of &#8220;programming&#8221; involved in protein assembly isn&#8217;t anything you&#8217;d want to show your boss if you were a software engineer:  &#8220;[O]ne can still understand gene transcription in terms of parallel threads of execution, with the caveat that these threads do not follow canonical, modular subroutine structure. Rather, threads of execution are intertwined in a rather &#8216;higgledy-piggledy&#8217; fashion, very much like what would be described as a sloppy, unstructured computer program code with lots of GOTO statements zipping in and out of loops and other constructs.&#8221;  See <a href="http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/17/6/669" rel="nofollow">http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/17/6/669</a> .</p>
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		<title>By: magnan</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/comment-page-1/#comment-125086</link>
		<dc:creator>magnan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 23:24:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/#comment-125086</guid>
		<description>CJYman:

&quot;IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m wondering if you know of any examples of logic gates used within life.&quot;

It seems that a lot of the protein nanomachine assembly processes in the cell resemble production assembly control programs, with each step triggered by completion of the previous, all subject to additional feedback regulation. This isn&#039;t in the form of a central digital computer and conventional software, but it is equivalent just the same. It is more like massive numbers of digital logic gates distributed throughout the cell, all designed to coordinate with each other in carrying out life processes. 

Having been reading Edge of Evolution I found several descriptions of these sort of systems, like the assembly of the flagellum on pages 265-267.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CJYman:</p>
<p>&#8220;IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m wondering if you know of any examples of logic gates used within life.&#8221;</p>
<p>It seems that a lot of the protein nanomachine assembly processes in the cell resemble production assembly control programs, with each step triggered by completion of the previous, all subject to additional feedback regulation. This isn&#8217;t in the form of a central digital computer and conventional software, but it is equivalent just the same. It is more like massive numbers of digital logic gates distributed throughout the cell, all designed to coordinate with each other in carrying out life processes. </p>
<p>Having been reading Edge of Evolution I found several descriptions of these sort of systems, like the assembly of the flagellum on pages 265-267.</p>
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		<title>By: CJYman</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/comment-page-1/#comment-125074</link>
		<dc:creator>CJYman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 21:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>DaveScot,

Excellent.  Thx.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DaveScot,</p>
<p>Excellent.  Thx.</p>
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		<title>By: kairos</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/comment-page-1/#comment-125062</link>
		<dc:creator>kairos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 19:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/#comment-125062</guid>
		<description>#12 Borne

I&#039;ve found in your description EXACTLY what has been so far my experience of speaking in favour of ID with NDE supporters.
I am more and more sure that it&#039;s not possible a fair discussion about. 
You said: 

&quot;ThatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s one of the reasons why they cannot win in this controversy.&quot;

I think they are realizing that they could lose in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#12 Borne</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve found in your description EXACTLY what has been so far my experience of speaking in favour of ID with NDE supporters.<br />
I am more and more sure that it&#8217;s not possible a fair discussion about.<br />
You said: </p>
<p>&#8220;ThatÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s one of the reasons why they cannot win in this controversy.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think they are realizing that they could lose in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: DaveScot</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/comment-page-1/#comment-125059</link>
		<dc:creator>DaveScot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 18:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/#comment-125059</guid>
		<description>CJYman

&lt;i&gt;IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m wondering if you know of any examples of logic gates used within life.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes.  In fact one example was &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/yet-another-feather-in-natural-selections-cap-what-hasnt-it-accomplished/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;blogged here&lt;/a&gt; by Dembski in March of 2006.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CJYman</p>
<p><i>IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m wondering if you know of any examples of logic gates used within life.</i></p>
<p>Yes.  In fact one example was <a href="http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/yet-another-feather-in-natural-selections-cap-what-hasnt-it-accomplished/" rel="nofollow">blogged here</a> by Dembski in March of 2006.</p>
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		<title>By: Borne</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/comment-page-1/#comment-125055</link>
		<dc:creator>Borne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/#comment-125055</guid>
		<description>kairos: From what I can gather from looking at Darwinist forums and books -  math, logic and information systems are no where near the studies of bio majors in North Am. It&#039;s like no one has woke up yet to the fact that bio information systems are uncannily similar (but far more advanced) to our own info systems.

Look at any debate forum on evo vs ID. It&#039;s always the same.  The logic of Darwinists is appalling and their understanding of information systems is even worse - even amongst the computer science people among. 

Just considering the present subject - how will they attempt to squirm out of the most obvious explanation?  We all know the answer.  

It doesn&#039;t seem to matter to them how many such complex, obviously designed with a purpose, systems are found in living cells - their preconceived metaphysical concepts bring them to denial, hand waving and yet another just-so story or 2 or 3.

They never stop to really think about what they &quot;believe&quot; - just spew out whatever inane nonsense seems to come to their rescue of their precious theory in their minds.

They commit the same logical fallacies over and over &lt;i&gt;ad infinitum ad nauseum&lt;/i&gt; But never see it.

And you can&#039;t tell them!  The responses are always the same - denial, insults, hand waving, double talk, just so stories and elephant hurling. Anything to get away from the truth.

The simplest reasoning escapes them.

Which is why I&#039;ve come to the conclusion over the years that Darwinists/Atheists are immune to logic - it means nothing to them - they cannot see the obvious or  reason out the simplest statements.

That&#039;s one of the reasons why they cannot win in this controversy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kairos: From what I can gather from looking at Darwinist forums and books &#8211;  math, logic and information systems are no where near the studies of bio majors in North Am. It&#8217;s like no one has woke up yet to the fact that bio information systems are uncannily similar (but far more advanced) to our own info systems.</p>
<p>Look at any debate forum on evo vs ID. It&#8217;s always the same.  The logic of Darwinists is appalling and their understanding of information systems is even worse &#8211; even amongst the computer science people among. </p>
<p>Just considering the present subject &#8211; how will they attempt to squirm out of the most obvious explanation?  We all know the answer.  </p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t seem to matter to them how many such complex, obviously designed with a purpose, systems are found in living cells &#8211; their preconceived metaphysical concepts bring them to denial, hand waving and yet another just-so story or 2 or 3.</p>
<p>They never stop to really think about what they &#8220;believe&#8221; &#8211; just spew out whatever inane nonsense seems to come to their rescue of their precious theory in their minds.</p>
<p>They commit the same logical fallacies over and over <i>ad infinitum ad nauseum</i> But never see it.</p>
<p>And you can&#8217;t tell them!  The responses are always the same &#8211; denial, insults, hand waving, double talk, just so stories and elephant hurling. Anything to get away from the truth.</p>
<p>The simplest reasoning escapes them.</p>
<p>Which is why I&#8217;ve come to the conclusion over the years that Darwinists/Atheists are immune to logic &#8211; it means nothing to them &#8211; they cannot see the obvious or  reason out the simplest statements.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s one of the reasons why they cannot win in this controversy.</p>
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		<title>By: kairos</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/comment-page-1/#comment-125047</link>
		<dc:creator>kairos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 15:13:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I would ask a (perhaps unpolitically correct question). In my european experience the undergraduate students in the biological academic courses show very low attitudes for maths and computer sciences. The question is: is so in the USA too? If this should be the case perhaps we haven&#039;t to be much surprised about the fact that probabilistic arguments are largely not understood by NDE biologists  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would ask a (perhaps unpolitically correct question). In my european experience the undergraduate students in the biological academic courses show very low attitudes for maths and computer sciences. The question is: is so in the USA too? If this should be the case perhaps we haven&#8217;t to be much surprised about the fact that probabilistic arguments are largely not understood by NDE biologists  <img src='http://www.uncommondescent.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: bFast</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/comment-page-1/#comment-125045</link>
		<dc:creator>bFast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 14:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Kairosfocus:&lt;blockquote&gt;This sounds like the ID movement needs to campaign for Ã¢â‚¬Å“Digital Electronics for allÃ¢â‚¬Â in the HS and introductory level College curriculum! (Time to end the dominance of IT training by user-interface manipulation and software-oriented instruction? At least, this would create a mass-base for understanding what design thinkers are thinking about . . .)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

At least anyone getting a Ph.D. in biology needs to have a foundation in digital electronics.  It shouldn&#039;t take these guys too long to see the parallels.  Maybe they&#039;ll show us how to design more elaborate of electronic circuits by RM+NS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kairosfocus:<br />
<blockquote>This sounds like the ID movement needs to campaign for Ã¢â‚¬Å“Digital Electronics for allÃ¢â‚¬Â in the HS and introductory level College curriculum! (Time to end the dominance of IT training by user-interface manipulation and software-oriented instruction? At least, this would create a mass-base for understanding what design thinkers are thinking about . . .)</p></blockquote>
<p>At least anyone getting a Ph.D. in biology needs to have a foundation in digital electronics.  It shouldn&#8217;t take these guys too long to see the parallels.  Maybe they&#8217;ll show us how to design more elaborate of electronic circuits by RM+NS.</p>
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		<title>By: bornagain77</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/comment-page-1/#comment-125041</link>
		<dc:creator>bornagain77</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I guess it would be the supression of some type of timing logic that would enable lactase persistance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it would be the supression of some type of timing logic that would enable lactase persistance.</p>
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		<title>By: CJYman</title>
		<link>http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/comment-page-1/#comment-125038</link>
		<dc:creator>CJYman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 13:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/digital-counters-discovered-controlling-gene-expression/#comment-125038</guid>
		<description>Hello Dave,

I&#039;m wondering if you know of any examples of logic gates used within life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Dave,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m wondering if you know of any examples of logic gates used within life.</p>
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