Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Did John Maynard Keynes spot the flaw in Intelligent Design?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

A firestorm of controversy has been unleashed by the recent Uncommon Descent post, Economist John Maynard Keynes understood ID? (June 13, 2013), which claimed that whatever his merits may have been as an economist, John Maynard Keynes (pictured above) at least displayed an admirable grasp of the case for Intelligent Design, which he succinctly summarized in his classic work, A Treatise on Probability. No attempt was made to paint the man as an Intelligent Design sympathizer, and it was subsequently pointed out by Mark Frank that he was an atheist. Over at the Skeptical Zone, the author of the original Uncommon Descent post on Keynes was reproached in a post by KeithS for not including a follow-up quote from the very next page of John Maynard Keynes’ book, in which Keynes, while acknowledging that the argument from design strengthened the case for a Designer, pointed out that the argument was inconclusive, as we have no information on the prior probability of the Designer’s existence:

Thus we cannot measure the probability of the conscious agent’s existence after the event, unless we can measure its probability before the event… No conclusion, therefore, which is worth having, can be based on the argument from design alone; like induction, this type of argument can only strengthen the probability of conclusions, for which there is something to be said on other grounds. We cannot say, for example, that the human eye is due to design more probably than not, unless we have some reason, apart from the nature of its construction, for suspecting conscious workmanship.

Dr. Elizabeth Liddle, in a comment attached to the Uncommon Descent post, laid out the reasoning on both sides with admirable clarity, following up with a comment of her own:

Note the reasoning:

From Denyse’s extract:

X is an event of low probability given non-design.
X occurred.
If we’d assumed a Designer X occurred we might have predicted X.

From keiths’ extract:

But unless we estimated the probability of the Designer before X occurred we cannot estimate the increased probability of a Designer after X occurred.

Therefore X alone is insufficient to infer a Designer.

So, yes, JMK understood ID, but it seems he understood it well enough to see the flaw in it.

The two flaws in Keynes’ reasoning

I have two comments I’d like to make on Keynes’ reasoning in the quote reproduced by KeithS. First, even if we don’t know the antecedent or prior probability of a Designer’s existence but suspect that it is very very low, Bayes’ theorem can still be used to show how low a prior probability the evidence for design can overcome. Second, since the prior probability of a Designer’s existence must be at least 1 in 10^120 (which is the number of events that could have occurred during the history of the observable universe), it therefore follows that if good enough scientific evidence is found for a Designer, it is possible in principle to demonstrate that a Designer does indeed exist, after all.

On the first point, I’d like to quote a passage from a post by the philosopher Lydia McGrew, titled, The odds form of Bayes’s Theorem [Updated] (January 6, 2011). In a much-commented-on 2007 paper, The Argument from Miracles: A Cumulative Case for the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, she and her husband, Dr. Timothy McGrew had examined the evidence for the claim (let’s call it claim R) that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead around 33 A.D., and concluded that there was sufficient evidence for the resurrection (R) to overcome even an incredibly low prior probability of 1 in 10^40. In the passage below, she addresses the frequently heard atheist objection that if we don’t know the prior probability of an extraordinary claim (e.g. the claim that the Resurrection occurred, or that there is a Designer of Nature), then we can’t say anything meaningful about the posterior probability of this claim, even if it is well-supported by confirming evidence:

I understand that the current atheist meme on this, which shows a rather striking lack of understanding of probability, is to say that if one does not argue for a particular prior probability for some proposition, one literally can say nothing meaningful about the confirmation provided by evidence beyond the statement that there is some confirmation or other.

This is flatly false, as both the second of the quotations above from the paper and my rather detailed explanation to Luke M. show.

Let me try to lay this out, step by step, for those who are interested:

The odds form of Bayes’s Theorem works like multiplying a fraction by a fraction–a fairly simple mathematical operation we all learned to do in grammar school (hopefully).

The first fraction is the ratio of the prior probabilities. So, let’s take an example. Suppose that, to begin with (that is, before you get some specific evidence) some proposition H is ten times less probable than its negation. The odds are ten to one against it. Then the ratio of the prior probabilities is

1/10.

Now, the second fraction we’re going to multiply is the ratio of the likelihoods. So, for our simple example, suppose that the evidence is ten times more probable if H is true than if H is false. The evidence favors H by odds of 10/1. Then the ratio of the likelihoods (which is also called a Bayes factor) is

10/1.

If you multiply

1/10 x 10/1

you get

10/10.

The odds form of Bayes’s Theorem says that the ratio of the posterior probabilities equals the ratio of the priors times the ratio of the likelihoods. What this means is that in this imaginary case, after taking that evidence into account, the probability that the event happened is equal to the probability that it didn’t: what we would call colloquially 50/50. (You’ll notice that the ratio 50/50 has the same value as the ratio 10/10. In this case, that’s no accident.)

Okay, now, suppose, on the other hand, that the second fraction, the ratio of the likelihoods, is

1000/1. That is, the evidence is 1000 times more probable if H is true than if H is false. So the evidence favors H by odds of 1000 to 1.

Then, the ratio of the posteriors is

1/10 x 1000/1 = 1000/10 = 100/1,

which means that after taking that evidence into account (evidence that is a thousand times more probable if H is true than if it is false), we should think of the event itself as a hundred times more probable than its negation.

See how this works?

What this amounts to is that if we can argue for a high Bayes factor (that second fraction), even if we don’t say what the prior odds are, we can say something very significant–namely, how low of a prior probability this evidence can overcome. That is exactly what we say in the second quotation from our paper that I gave above. It is exactly what I explain to Luke M. We say that we have argued for “a weight of evidence that would be sufficient to overcome a prior probability (or rather improbability) of 10^–40 for R and leave us with a posterior probability in excess of 0.9999.”

In our paper, we concentrate on the Bayes factor. The Bayes factor shows the direction of the evidence and measures its force. We argue that it is staggeringly high in favor of R for the evidence we adduce. Naturally, the skeptics will not be likely to agree with us on that. My point here and now, however, is that neither in the paper nor in my interview was there a mistake about probability, any insignificance or triviality in our intended conclusion, nor any deception. We are clear that we are not specifying a prior probability (to do so and to argue for it in any detail would require us to evaluate all the other evidence for and against the existence of God, since that is highly relevant to the prior probability of the resurrection, which obviously would lie beyond the scope of a single paper). Nonetheless, what we do argue is, if we are successful, of great epistemic significance concerning the resurrection, because it means that this evidence is so good that it can overcome even an incredibly low prior probability.

I trust that this is now cleared up.

Indeed!

As a follow-up to Lydia McGrew’s argument, I would claim that the prior probability of the existence of a Designer of Nature cannot plausibly be lower than 1 in 10^120. Notice how I’m framing the hypothesis here: I’m not saying the Designer is omnibenevolent, so arguments from the evil in the world will count as naught against this hypothesis. Likewise, I’m not claiming that the Designer personally planned the design of each and every life-form, so alleged instances of poor design in Nature are also irrelevant to the claim I’m making. My sole claim is that a Designer exists, and that some features of the natural world were planned by this Designer. The negation of this hypothesis is that no features of the natural world were designed.

Now, a skeptic might argue that we don’t need a design explanation for law-governed occurrences: the laws themselves are enough. I think this line of reasoning is grossly mistaken: laws by themselves don’t explain anything. I would also argue that laws can only be properly understood as normative or prescriptive statements, which in turn implies the existence of a Great Prescriber or Lawmaker. But let us leave that aside, and suppose that the objector is correct. Even if we allow that every occurrence which is observed to conform to scientific laws counts as evidence against the likelihood of there being a Designer of Nature, we can still show that the prior probability of a Designer’s existence is at least 1 in 10^120, or 1 with 120 zeroes after it. That’s the number of events calculated to have occurred by Dr. Seth Lloyd of MIT in his 2001 article, Computational capacity of the universe. If every successive law-governed event weakens belief in a Designer, then on a naive view (which is, after all, what we mean by a prior probability), the occurrence of 10^120 such events would reduce our estimate of the prior probability of the Designer’s existence to 1 in 10^120.

In a recent post of mine, titled, The Edge of Evolution, I quoted from a 2011 paper by Dr. Branko Kozulic, Proteins and Genes, Singletons and Species, which argued that the appearance of hundreds of unique proteins and genes that characterize each species is an event beyond the reach of chance. For the purposes of brevity, I’ll just quote from his conclusion:

If just 200 unique proteins are present in each species, the probability of their simultaneous appearance is one against at least 10^4,000. [The] Probabilistic resources of our universe are much, much smaller; they allow for a maximum of 10^149 events [158] and thus could account for a one-time simultaneous appearance of at most 7 unique proteins. The alternative, a sequential appearance of singletons, would require that the descendants of one family live through hundreds of “macromolecular miracles” to become a new species – again a scenario of exceedingly low probability. Therefore, now one can say that each species is a result of a Biological Big Bang; to reserve that term just for the first living organism [21] is not justified anymore. This view about species differs sharply from the predominant one according to which speciation is caused by reproductive isolation of two populations [159, 160] mediated by difficult to find speciation genes [161-163]. (p. 21)

Evolutionary biologists of earlier generations have not anticipated [164, 165] the challenge that singletons pose to contemporary biologists. By discovering millions of unique genes biologists have run into brick walls similar to those hit by physicists with the discovery of quantum phenomena. The predominant viewpoint in biology has become untenable: we are witnessing a scientific revolution of unprecedented proportions. (p. 21)

I conclude that the evidence for Intelligent Design is more than enough to overcome any obstacles posed by skeptics, and that disbelief in the existence of such a Designer is not only philosophically but scientifically irrational, whatever Keynes himself may have thought.

Comments
OK RD Fish guy, I get it. You do NOT know anything about conducting an investigation to figure out the root cause. And you think that your lack of experience means more than people who have many years of experience. Have fun with that! Cheers, JoeJoe
June 25, 2013
June
06
Jun
25
25
2013
06:12 AM
6
06
12
AM
PDT
Hi Joe,
I can but it would take quite a bit of time. As I said there are investigative venues that depend on our ability to do so. Many of those require years of training and education.
Ok, Joe, I get it. Once you have all of the training and education you have, you can look at nature and decide when it is operately freely. Have fun with that! Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
10:07 PM
10
10
07
PM
PDT
GIVEN: Entity X can list the first 100 prime numbers. QUESTIONS: Is X intelligent?
Yes.Joe
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
04:22 PM
4
04
22
PM
PDT
Here is what I mean: GIVEN: Entity X is intelligent QUESTIONS: Can X speak in grammatical sentences? Can X design an automobile? Can X list the first 100 prime numbers? (hint: The answer is “There is no way of telling”)
HINT: ID is NOT about the designer. In the absence of direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design and all reolevant evidence. That means we do NOT have to know anything about the designer(s) nor the process(es) used before determining design is present.Joe
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
04:21 PM
4
04
21
PM
PDT
If you could tell us how to determine when nature is operating freely and when it isn’t, then you would.
I can but it would take quite a bit of time. As I said there are investigative venues that depend on our ability to do so. Many of those require years of training and education. Artifact is not necessarily a human-made thing. Crows are not human and crows have made artifacts.
How we can apply some measurement or test to all of these things: [humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers] which will distinguish them as intelligent agents?
We look for signs of counterflow, ie work.
If “intelligence” refers to “differing capabilities”,
Where are you getting that from? "Intelligence" refers to AGENCY. And an AGENCY is something that can manipulate natire for a purpose. And guess what? We know that people of 4,000 years ago had the capability to build Stonehenge because Stonehenge was left behind. We know the capabilities by what they left us to examine. So here we has RD Fish blowing it badly wrt artifacts, SETI and many investigative venues that depend on our ability to differentiate between nature, operating freely and agency intervention. Archaeologists, forensic scientists, insurance investiagtors, SETI and many others should just pack it in and go home- that is if they listen to you. And one more question- what part of the following don't you understand?: In the absence of direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any scientific determination about the designer(s) or specific process(es) used, is by studying the design and all reolevant evidence. That means we do NOT have to know anything about the designer(s) nor the process(es) used before determining design is present. And that means you lose. And I am sure the readers have already figured that out.Joe
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
04:20 PM
4
04
20
PM
PDT
Hi Joe,
Scientists don’t rely solely on dictionary definitions.
That is quite correct, Joe. That is the very reason I explained this to you:
Well, you’re wrong when it comes to dictionary definitions – they all refer to things that human beings make. But in the context of SETI or ID of course we could define the word differently. Unfortunately your definition of “not from nature operating freely” doesn’t help because we have no way of determining when nature is operating freely and when it is not.
RDF: Unfortunately your definition of “not from nature operating freely” doesn’t help because we have no way of determining when nature is operating freely and when it is not. JOE: Of course we do. We have research venues that depend on it.
If you could tell us how to determine when nature is operating freely and when it isn't, then you would. But you can't, and so you don't.
So a crow is a human being? Or are you just ignorant?
If insults could win arguments, then you would always win. But they can't, and so you always lose.
RDF: Can you simply tell us how to decide when nature is operating freely and when it is not? JOE: Yes, I can. And entire research venues depend on it. But then again I was a hunter and have loads of experience with nature.
If you could tell us how to determine when nature is operating freely and when it isn't, then you would. But you can't, and so you don't.
RDF: How we can apply some measurement or test to all of these things: [humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers] which will distinguish them as intelligent agents? JOE: I answered that already.
No, you haven't. If you could have you would have, but you can't, and so you haven't.
It’s called knowledge of cause and effect relationships. As I said we already know nature cannot produce stonehenge and neither can dolphins.
Seriously, this is your answer to Alan's question? That is really the best you can do? The question, again, was this: How we can apply some measurement or test to all of these things: [humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers] which will distinguish them as intelligent agents? Your answer was "knowledge of cause and effect relationships". If that is your final answer, then we can wrap up this discussion and I'll let the fair reader decide if you have any idea what you are talking about. If “intelligence” refers to “differing capabilities”, then we have no way of telling which capabilities count as intelligence and which do not, and we have no way of knowing what capabilities might be referred to when you call something “intelligent”. Here is what I mean: GIVEN: Entity X is intelligent QUESTIONS: Can X speak in grammatical sentences? Can X design an automobile? Can X list the first 100 prime numbers? (hint: The answer is "There is no way of telling") And, conversely: GIVEN: Entity X can list the first 100 prime numbers. QUESTIONS: Is X intelligent? (hint: The answer is "It all depends on how you define "intelligent") Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
04:01 PM
4
04
01
PM
PDT
Well, you’re wrong when it comes to dictionary definitions – they all refer to things that human beings make.
Scientists don't rely solely on dictionary definitions. And my reference trumps dictionaries.
Unfortunately your definition of “not from nature operating freely” doesn’t help because we have no way of determining when nature is operating freely and when it is not.
Of course we do. We have research venues that depend on it.
Joe, even your own reference showed that the word “artifact” meant that it was made by human beings.
So a crow is a human being? Or are you just ignorant?
Can you simply tell us how to decide when nature is operating freely and when it is not?
Yes, I can. And entire research venues depend on it. But then again I was a hunter and have loads of experience with nature.
I understand that when you say this you mean “aside from human artifice”, but humans are part of nature so the word usage is a little confusing.
Umm, I explained that.
How we can apply some measurement or test to all of these things: [humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers] which will distinguish them as intelligent agents?
I answered that already. It's called knowledge of cause and effect relationships. As I said we already know nature cannot produce stonehenge and neither can dolphins.
Saying that “intelligence” refers to “differing capabilities” is not a definition that can be used in science,
I didn't say that and how would you know what can and can't be used in science? Saying intelligence refers to some agency can and is used in science. And the only problem I see is your lack of experience wrt investigations.Joe
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
01:30 PM
1
01
30
PM
PDT
Hi Joe,
That SETI couldn’t tell from the signal if it was from biological organisms.
Yes, we agree that SETI cannot tell from a signal itself what actually was responsible for the signal.
Also an artifact doesn’t have to be from a human.
Well, you're wrong when it comes to dictionary definitions - they all refer to things that human beings make. But in the context of SETI or ID of course we could define the word differently. Unfortunately your definition of "not from nature operating freely" doesn't help because we have no way of determining when nature is operating freely and when it is not.
RDF: Well, you can always say that you’re right, but that doesn’t help you I’m afraid, because the fact is that you are wrong again. JOE: Only if you ignore my reference.
Joe, even your own reference showed that the word "artifact" meant that it was made by human beings :-)
As for “nature, operating freely” and not knowing what that means- you have to be kidding. Please read “Nature, Design and Science” or perhaps any arcaeology book.
Can you simply tell us how to decide when nature is operating freely and when it is not? I do not think you can.
Just say that nature cannot produce cars.
I understand that when you say this you mean "aside from human artifice", but humans are part of nature so the word usage is a little confusing.
RDF: What Alan is asking is this: How we can apply some measurement or test to all of the things he mentioned (humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers) which will distinguish them as intelligent agents (i.e. agents capable of manipulating nature for some purpose). JOE: It’s called “counterflow”- or work. Read “Nature, Design and Science” and stop “arguing” from ignorance. Archaeologists use it- forensic scientists use it- even SETI uses it. Hunters use it, too.
Can you, or can you not, answer this question: How we can apply some measurement or test to all of these things: [humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers] which will distinguish them as intelligent agents? I think you cannot answer that question.
RDF: But if you said that X was “intelligent”, I would have no idea how to figure out if you were right or wrong, because there is no single thing that the word means for all different Xs. JOE: It would reflect their differing capabilities. Dolphins cannot build Stonehenge.
Now you are beginning to see the problem. Saying that "intelligence" refers to "differing capabilities" is not a definition that can be used in science, because we have no way of telling which capabilities count as intelligence and which do not, and because we have no way of knowing what capabilities might be referred to when you call something "intelligent". Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
11:17 AM
11
11
17
AM
PDT
But if you said that X was “intelligent”, I would have no idea how to figure out if you were right or wrong, because there is no single thing that the word means for all different Xs.
It would reflect their differing capabilities. Dolphins cannot build Stonehenge.Joe
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
10:56 AM
10
10
56
AM
PDT
Saying that X is “intelligent” says absolutely nothing specific about X.
It says X was some agency, as opposed to nature, operating freely. And we know that alone is a game changer. And we also know that in the absence of direct observation or designer input, the only possible way to make any other determination about the designer, is by studying the design and all relevant evidence.
Counterflow refers to things running contrary to what, in the relevant sense, would (or might) have resulted or occurred had nature operated freely. Del Ratzsch page 5 of Nature, Design and Science: The Status of Design in Natural Science
Joe
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
10:54 AM
10
10
54
AM
PDT
Sorry, correct about what?
That SETI couldn't tell from the signal if it was from biological organisms. Also an artifact doesn’t have to be from a human.
Well, you can always say that you’re right, but that doesn’t help you I’m afraid, because the fact is that you are wrong again.
Only if you ignore my reference.
So we see that “artifact” is defined exactly the way I said, and the word has nothing at all to do with what you said it did, which has to do with “nature operating freely” (whatever that means).
My reference supports my claim. As for "nature, operating freely" and not knowing what that means- you have to be kidding. Please read "Nature, Design and Science" or perhaps any arcaeology book.
Nobody knows what you mean by “nature operating freely”, Joe, and neither do you. Nature always operates freely.
No, I would say perhaps you and a few other people don't. However it is safe to say that forensic scientists, anthropologists and anyone who has read "Nature, Design and Science" by Del Ratszch
So I think we’ve pretty much cleared this one up – artifacts are things made by human beings.
Again, only if you ignore my reference.- Again, Artifact:
Intentional agency is not limited to human beings. For example, in a recent experiment a New Caledonian crow called Betty bent a piece of straight wire into a hook and used it to lift a bucket containing food from a vertical pipe (Weir at al., 2002). The action required for the solution of Betty's problem, bending a metal wire into the form of a hook, was quite “unnatural”, and apparently an instance of intelligent, goal-directed action. Betty's hook may be regarded as a simple artifact made for the purpose of gaining access to the food bucket. Tool manufacture has also been observed among animals in the wild, for example, chimpanzees strip leaves off twigs detached from branches of trees and use the twigs for reaching termites or ants. (Beck 1980, 117.)
We agree that cars are human artifacts that are not otherwise found in nature.
Just say that nature cannot produce cars.
What is nonsense is this idea you have about “nature operating freely”.
LoL! Just because you are ignorant of the phrase doesn't mean it's nonsense.
What Alan is asking is this: How we can apply some measurement or test to all of the things he mentioned (humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers) which will distinguish them as intelligent agents (i.e. agents capable of manipulating nature for some purpose).
It's called "counterflow"- or work. Read "Nature, Design and Science" and stop "arguing" from ignorance. Archaeologists use it- forensic scientists use it- even SETI uses it. Hunters use it, too.Joe
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
10:51 AM
10
10
51
AM
PDT
Hi Joe,
RDF: If it was possible to track the signal’s origin to a planet that was sufficiently Earth-like, we would probably hypothesize that biological species similar to those on Earth were responsible... JOE: All that just to admit I was correct?
Sorry, correct about what?
RDF: Umm, no, “artifacts” are not defined such at all (look the word up). Rather, the word refers to objects made by human beings. JOE: I have and they are. Also an artifact doesn’t have to be from a human.
Well, you can always say that you're right, but that doesn't help you I'm afraid, because the fact is that you are wrong again :-) :
ar·ti·fact [ahr-tuh-fakt] Show IPA noun 1. any object made by human beings, especially with a view to subsequent use. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/artifact?s=t
So we see that "artifact" is defined exactly the way I said, and the word has nothing at all to do with what you said it did, which has to do with "nature operating freely" (whatever that means). I'm glad we cleared that up.
Ya see rd fish, if one can demonstrate that nature, operating freely can produce it, then it ain’t an artifact.
Nobody knows what you mean by "nature operating freely", Joe, and neither do you. Nature always operates freely. Artifacts are things made by human beings rather than other natural processes.
According to Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, an artifact is “a usually simple object (as a tool or an ornament) showing human workmanship and modification as distinguished from a natural object.”
Yes, Joe. Your dictionary also tells us that artifacts are things that human beings make. And here is the defintion from Merriam-Webster too:
1a : something created by humans usually for a practical purpose; especially : an object remaining from a particular period
So I think we've pretty much cleared this one up - artifacts are things made by human beings. Let's move on.
That is false. Being natural means existing in nature or produced by nature. Artifacts exist in nature but were NOT produced by nature.
The first thing I said to you (@32) was this:
The signals that SETI searches for are those which SETI scientists belive are not otherwise found in nature (that is, outside of human artifice).
I think that is as clear as it could be. Let's move on, shall we?
Nature, operating freely cannot produce cars nor any artifact.
We agree that cars are human artifacts that are not otherwise found in nature. What is nonsense is this idea you have about "nature operating freely".
AFOX: At this point it might be helpful for any ID proponent to produce an operational definition of intelligence that encompassed intelligence as manifested by humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers. JOE: It refers to some agency- an agency capable of manipulating nature for some purpose.
Here is what "operational defintion" means:
An operational definition, also called functional definition,[1][2] defines something (e.g. a variable, term, or object) in terms of the specific process or set of validation tests used to determine its presence and quantity. That is, one defines something in terms of the operations that count as measuring it.[3
What Alan is asking is this: How we can apply some measurement or test to all of the things he mentioned (humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers) which will distinguish them as intelligent agents (i.e. agents capable of manipulating nature for some purpose). There is no definition of "intelligence" that allows us to do that. In other words, there is no single, specific meaning of the word "intelligence" that can be consistently applied to all of these different things. The point is this: Saying that X is "intelligent" says absolutely nothing specific about X. Now, if I said X was "red", that would tell you something specific about X. Likewise if I said X was "massive" or "electrically charged" or "porous" or "air-breathing" or "mobile" or "radioactive", we would all know how to figure out if those properties actually were true of X or not - you could tell me if I was right or wrong about my claim. But if you said that X was "intelligent", I would have no idea how to figure out if you were right or wrong, because there is no single thing that the word means for all different Xs.
For someone to have followed this since 2005 and not know that, is very telling.
After all this time you still don't know what an operational definition is? Telling indeed :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT
At this point it might be helpful for any ID proponent to produce an operational definition of intelligence that encompassed intelligence as manifested by humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers.
It refers to some agency- an agency capable of manipulating nature for some purpose. For someone to have followed this since 2005 and not know that, is very telling.Joe
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
06:20 AM
6
06
20
AM
PDT
If SETI receives its signal- the narrow band signal described above, how will they know if the ET is biological or not? Please do tell.
If it was possible to track the signal’s origin to a planet that was sufficiently Earth-like, we would probably hypothesize that biological species similar to those on Earth were responsible. Otherwise, SETI would not know anything about what caused the signal. We could not tell if whatever sent the signal was biological, or if it was from another universe, or if it could anything else besides transmite this signal.
All that just to admit I was correct?
Umm, no, “artifacts” are not defined such at all (look the word up). Rather, the word refers to objects made by human beings.
I have and they are. Also an artifact doesn't have to be from a human. Ya see rd fish, if one can demonstrate that nature, operating freely can produce it, then it ain't an artifact. You can read all about it - artifact- for example:
According to Webster's Third New International Dictionary, an artifact is “a usually simple object (as a tool or an ornament) showing human workmanship and modification as distinguished from a natural object.”
The artifacts on our planet have been created by human beings (or perhaps other animals like termite colonies or bower birds). All of this is natural, of course – just as you pointed out with the radio and TV signals that exists (where else?) in nature.
That is false. Being natural means existing in nature or produced by nature. Artifacts exist in nature but were NOT produced by nature.
Every reference to everything in our experience is to nature, operating freely.
That is false. Nature, operating freely cannot produce cars nor any artifact.Joe
June 24, 2013
June
06
Jun
24
24
2013
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
Hi Joe,
If SETI receives its signal- the narrow band signal described above, how will they know if the ET is biological or not? Please do tell.
If it was possible to track the signal's origin to a planet that was sufficiently Earth-like, we would probably hypothesize that biological species similar to those on Earth were responsible. Otherwise, SETI would not know anything about what caused the signal. We could not tell if whatever sent the signal was biological, or if it was from another universe, or if it could anything else besides transmite this signal.
RDF: As far as we know, everything in nature is “nature operating freely”, since there is nothing we know of that is outside of nature that could constrain nature. JOE: Umm except artifacts are defined such that nature, operating freely, could not have produced them.
Umm, no, "artifacts" are not defined such at all (look the word up). Rather, the word refers to objects made by human beings.
There is plenty on our planet that is not the result of nature, operating freely.
The artifacts on our planet have been created by human beings (or perhaps other animals like termite colonies or bower birds). All of this is natural, of course - just as you pointed out with the radio and TV signals that exists (where else?) in nature.
And the following is reference to nature, operating freely:
Every reference to everything in our experience is to nature, operating freely. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
10:55 PM
10
10
55
PM
PDT
Hi Bilbo,
Yes, SETI is looking for technically sophisticated beings. Since the only such beings they know of are us, they are looking in places where beings like us are more likely to be.
Exactly.
However, if they found a narrow-band signal coming from a neutron star, they would probably be willing to consider it a technically sophisticated being. Especially if it transmitted the first hundred prime numbers. Biology be damned.
If we found a narrow-band signal coming from a neutron star, we would have no idea what to make of it, period. I for one would guess that some sort of unknown physics was at work in this star that emitted the signal without any life forms involved, but every possible explanation would be a highly speculative guess. Just like with the Wow signal, we could only speculate. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
10:53 PM
10
10
53
PM
PDT
Hi Alan,
At this point it might be helpful for any ID proponent to produce an operational definition of intelligence that encompassed intelligence as manifested by humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers.
I second your suggestion. If somebody would do this, then ID would actually move toward being a scientific hypothesis. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
10:52 PM
10
10
52
PM
PDT
Gregory @13: You've promised not to comment on vjtorley's columns, but you haven't promised not to comment on other columns, so what is stopping you from posting a reply acknowledging your blatant error here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/more-warfare-thesis-lies-this-time-from-cnn/ Error in post 72 was made on June 1. The correction was given to you also on June 1. It is now June 23.Timaeus
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
06:34 PM
6
06
34
PM
PDT
And BTW, if SETI wants to find ET they need to abandon the outdated Drake equation and read "Rare Earth" and "The Privileged Planet".Joe
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
05:13 PM
5
05
13
PM
PDT
Hey aifishguy- If SETI receives its signal- the narrow band signal described above, how will they know if the ET is biological or not? Please do tell.
As far as we know, everything in nature is “nature operating freely”, since there is nothing we know of that is outside of nature that could constrain nature.
Umm except artifacts are defined such that nature, operating freely, could not have produced them. There is plenty on our planet that is not the result of nature, operating freely. And the following is reference to nature, operating freely: Natural cosmic noisemakers, such as pulsars, quasars, and the turbulent, thin interstellar gas of our own Milky Way, do not make radio signals that are this narrow... Cheers, indeed..Joe
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
04:45 PM
4
04
45
PM
PDT
Alan Fox:
At this point it might be helpful for any ID proponent to produce an operational definition of intelligence that encompassed intelligence as manifested by humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers.
We have Alan.Joe
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
04:39 PM
4
04
39
PM
PDT
Hi RDFish, Yes, SETI is looking for technically sophisticated beings. Since the only such beings they know of are us, they are looking in places where beings like us are more likely to be. However, if they found a narrow-band signal coming from a neutron star, they would probably be willing to consider it a technically sophisticated being. Especially if it transmitted the first hundred prime numbers. Biology be damned. I heard a lecture by Seth Shostak once. He said that he even expected that we might be more likely to find second generation intelligent beings: robots. This would expand the search area quite a bit. Would being able to design a bacterium exhibit foresight? I think so. The purpose of DNA is to store the information needed both to make the Proteins and RNA necessary to keep the cell functioning, and to provide the information necessary to reproduce. Crick and Watson were the first to note that the double-stranded DNA seemed ready-made to provide a way to duplicate DNA.Bilbo I
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
04:35 PM
4
04
35
PM
PDT
At this point it might be helpful for any ID proponent to produce an operational definition of intelligence that encompassed intelligence as manifested by humans, dolphins, corvids, extra-terrestrials and unknown disembodied designers.Alan Fox
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
04:02 PM
4
04
02
PM
PDT
Hi Joe,
The signal would still be in nature- TV and radio signals that we trasmit are found in nature.
Well, yes, everything in our experience is "in nature", Joe. What SETI scientists mean is that we are aware of no other phenomena outside of human artifice that produces such signals.
SETI is looking for signals in nature that nature, operating freely could not have produced, and that known transmitters are known to produce.
As far as we know, everything in nature is "nature operating freely", since there is nothing we know of that is outside of nature that could constrain nature. In any event, here is what SETI actually looks for:
Virtually all radio SETI experiments have looked for what are called “narrow-band signals.” These are radio emissions that extend over only a small part of the radio spectrum....Narrow-band signals – perhaps only a few Hertz wide or less – are the mark of a purposely built transmitter. Natural cosmic noisemakers, such as pulsars, quasars, and the turbulent, thin interstellar gas of our own Milky Way, do not make radio signals that are this narrow.... If E.T. intentionally sends us a signal, those signals may well have at least one narrow-band component to get our attention. http://www.seti.org/faq#seti1
There is no reference to anything about "nature operating freely" or not, obviously.
And SETI doesn’t care if ET is biological or not. So please get that strawman out of your head.
You are mistaken:
What sorts of research are conducted at the SETI Institute? The Institute has suites of activities in three arenas: (1) Astrobiology, the efforts to find and understand the prevalence of life in general (for example, microbial life under the parched landscapes of Mars or the icy crust of the jovian moon, Europa); (2) SETI, experiments designed to detect radio or light signals that would reveal the presence of technically sophisticated beings; and (3) Education and outreach projects that inform the public about our research, encourage young people to become more proficient in science, and train teachers in so-called STEM subject areas. The Institute’s research activities are sometimes referenced to the Drake Equation (see below), which nicely lays out those subject areas that are germane to the question of extraterrestrial life’s prevalence and nature. http://www.seti.org/faq#seti1
And here are some of the factors in this Drake Equation:
ne = the number of planets per solar system that are suitable for life fl = the fraction of such planets that actually spawn life fi = the fraction of planets with life that evolve intelligent life ft = the fraction of planets with intelligent life that produce technologically capable life http://www.seti.org/faq#seti1
So I guess they really are all about looking for biological ETs after all, huh? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
04:01 PM
4
04
01
PM
PDT
Hi vjtorley,
When I wrote that intelligence can be defined as the ability to adapt means to ends, I was referring to distant ends, which requires foresight.
Our understanding of foresight is that it is a search of some internalized representation of an environment to find solutions to problems. Since we don't have the opportunity to observe whatever caused the origin of life utilize foresight to solve novel problems, how is it we can identify that a general capacity for foresight was present? I think we can't.
That’s quite a common definition of “intelligence,” in the literature relating to animal intelligence.
Most definitions of "intelligence" I've seen have included the ability to learn. Even if an entity could perform complex tasks, if it was incapable of changing its behavior in the face of novel problems, most of us would not think of this entity as being intelligent. What evidence is there that the cause of life in the universe was capable of learning? I think there is none.
Other critics of this definition frequently point out that if an animal cannot explain why it is doing what it is doing, then its behavior cannot properly be characterized as rational – hence the need for language.
What evidence is there that the cause of life in the universe could explain its reasoning using language? I think there is none.
As for the ability to create a code: I’m not saying that’s a necessary condition for intelligence, but it’s certainly a sufficient one.
So if some entity could produce codes, but could not explain how or why it was doing this, and not be able to learn, and not be able to solve any other problem - you would still consider this entity intelligent? I would not.
I’m glad you agree that “the ability to use a grammatical language to explain one’s plans and actions is a substantive claim.” However, if Intelligent Design can identify the existence of codes within Nature, then I see no reason in principle why it cannot identify the existence of grammatical language in some pattern as well. See this article: In the Planetary Science Journal Icarus, the “Wow!” Signal of Intelligent Design.
I haven't studied this article carefully, but I certainly don't see any reference to finding a message that expresses the plans and actions of some bioengineer - or any other message. Am I missing something?
I for one am skeptical that any natural process could output the first 100 primes
I agree we have no familiarity with any process that would produce that sequence.
So I have to disagree with your claim that if a sequence of the first 100 primes “originated from inside a neutron star, they would not think that – they would not know what sort of thing might have produced it.” I imagine they might say it came from another universe or something. (Black holes, at least, are thought by some to contain wormholes to other universes.)
Well, yes, if we detected a series of prime numbers transmitted from inside a neutron star, we could speculate all sorts of things about its origin, including that it came "from another universe"! Why, maybe there are even an infinite number of universes in a multiverse! Who can tell? But scientists would not conclude that the mystery was solved simply by saying the origin of this signal was "intelligent", because that would not tell us one single thing - it would be a completely vacuous statement. All it would mean is "it was capable of producing the first 100 primes", and nothing more. Hope that helps. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
03:46 PM
3
03
46
PM
PDT
The signals that SETI searches for are those which SETI scientists belive are not otherwise found in nature (that is, outside of human artifice). A narrow-band transmission is an example of such a signal.
Your wording is poor. The signal would still be in nature- TV and radio signals that we trasmit are found in nature. SETI is looking for signals in nature that nature, operating freely could not have produced, and that known transmitters are known to produce. And SETI doesn't care if ET is biological or not. So please get that strawman out of your head.
In that case, ID needs to demonstrate what it is about human beings that defies natural law.
I would say it is up to someone to demonstrate we are explainable via natural laws and that natural laws themselves are explainable by natural laws. Also the scientific literature is void of anything but life begets life.Joe
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
02:07 PM
2
02
07
PM
PDT
RDFish, Thank you for your post. When I wrote that intelligence can be defined as the ability to adapt means to ends, I was referring to distant ends, which requires foresight. That's quite a common definition of "intelligence," in the literature relating to animal intelligence. Other critics of this definition frequently point out that if an animal cannot explain why it is doing what it is doing, then its behavior cannot properly be characterized as rational - hence the need for language. As for the ability to create a code: I'm not saying that's a necessary condition for intelligence, but it's certainly a sufficient one. I'm glad you agree that "the ability to use a grammatical language to explain one’s plans and actions is a substantive claim." However, if Intelligent Design can identify the existence of codes within Nature, then I see no reason in principle why it cannot identify the existence of grammatical language in some pattern as well. See this article: In the Planetary Science Journal Icarus, the "Wow!" Signal of Intelligent Design. Re Carl Sagan's remarks, he may indeed have meant "intelligent life-form," but his willingness to say that only something intelligent could produce the first 100 primes still shows he defined the meaning of the word "intelligent" independently of the physical characteristics of the life-form in question. You write that "There are various phenomena in nature that produce prime number sequences too." Where and how many? Please provide references. I for one am skeptical that any natural process could output the first 100 primes, as it would require a lot of memory, as well as the ability to continually go backwards and forwards in a sequence, in order to do so - characteristics highly suggestive of intelligence. So I have to disagree with your claim that if a sequence of the first 100 primes "originated from inside a neutron star, they would not think that – they would not know what sort of thing might have produced it." I imagine they might say it came from another universe or something. (Black holes, at least, are thought by some to contain wormholes to other universes.) Hope that helps.vjtorley
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
01:50 PM
1
01
50
PM
PDT
Hi Joe,
RDF: SETI is actually quite the opposite of ID: SETI looks for things not found in nature in order to infer the existence of biological life; ID looks for things that are found in nature in order to infer the existence of something non-biological! JOE: What a joke.
That's a rude comment.
The signal SETI receives that demonstrates ET will be found in nature, aifishguy. It will be artificial, but it will be found in nature, as will ET.
The signals that SETI searches for are those which SETI scientists belive are not otherwise found in nature (that is, outside of human artifice). A narrow-band transmission is an example of such a signal.
RDF: If you disagree, please give me the operational definition of “intelligence” that ID uses. JOE: Agency- ie not nature, operating freely.
In that case, ID needs to demonstrate what it is about human beings that defies natural law. In other words, your definition of "intelligence" as "agency", in turn defined as something that is "not nature", entails assumptions regarding mind that are highly controversial, to say the least.
RDF: Once you substract all of the unwarranted anthropomorphic connotations, it is a vacuous statement. JOE: If a design inference is warranted by the evidence then it is a game changer, which is as far from vacuous as one can get.
What I'm saying is vacuous is the term "design" in that sentence, again after removing the unwarranted anthropomorphic connotations. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
01:17 PM
1
01
17
PM
PDT
Hi vjtorley,
Intelligence is often defined in ID circles as the ability to adapt means to ends.
In that case, obviously, evolutionary processes are intelligent. This makes the phrase "evolution vs. intelligent design" a non sequitur.
It may also be defined, more narrowly, as the ability to adapt means to ends and to write some code (in some language) which accomplishes this task (think of the digital code found in living things, which contain a genetic code).
So in your view, anything that cannot write code is not intelligent? Seriously?
Again, it may be defined even more narrowly as the ability to adapt means to ends and to explain (in some language) why you are using those means to attain that end (meta-cognition).
These definitions of "intelligence" are highly ideosyncratic - I've never come across anything like that in psychology or cognitive science. First, it seems quite wrong to say that anything that cannot explain its actions in language is not intelligent. I can imagine non-verbal people who are capable of doing all sorts of mental tasks that I would call "intelligent". Second, we have no indication at all that whatever accounts for the origin of life in the universe is capable of explaining why it was using whatever means it used to achieve the ends we observe. This means that ID theory is completely without evidence.
I certainly wouldn’t regard a statement about something’s having the above abilities as “vacuous.”
I agree - the ability to use a grammatical language to explain one's plans and actions is a substantive claim. It is also a claim that can't possibly be evaluated in the context of ID.
You write that SETI hires astrobiologists who look for “life as we know it.” Well, yes, usually that’s how they put it. But the late Carl Sagan used to say that if we found a signal containing the first 100 digits of pi, we’d attribute it to some extraterrestrial intelligence.
He meant "intelligent life form" of course; before "ID Theory", people weren't worried about reifying the term "intelligence" in this context. In any case, if you read SETI literature, it is perfectly clear that they are looking for extra-terrestrial life forms.
And what about the famous “Wow!” signal of 1977? The only assumption made by SETI there was that, hydrogen being the most common element in the universe, since hydrogen resonates at about 1420 MHz, extraterrestrials might use that frequency to transmit a signal.
SETI is a search, not a theory. Any evidence that SETI provides must be evaluated to see what it actually might imply. If, for example, a series of prime numbers were found in some signal, scientists would look to see what the source of that signal was. If it originated from a habitable planet, they might tentatively conclude that extra-terrestrial life existed there. If it originated from inside a neutron star, they would not think that - they would not know what sort of thing might have produced it. (There are various phenomena in nature that produce prime number sequences too). Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
11:09 AM
11
11
09
AM
PDT
Hi RDFish, Intelligence is often defined in ID circles as the ability to adapt means to ends. It may also be defined, more narrowly, as the ability to adapt means to ends and to write some code (in some language) which accomplishes this task (think of the digital code found in living things, which contain a genetic code). Again, it may be defined even more narrowly as the ability to adapt means to ends and to explain (in some language) why you are using those means to attain that end (meta-cognition). I certainly wouldn't regard a statement about something's having the above abilities as "vacuous." You write that SETI hires astrobiologists who look for "life as we know it." Well, yes, usually that's how they put it. But the late Carl Sagan used to say that if we found a signal containing the first 100 digits of pi, we'd attribute it to some extraterrestrial intelligence. And what about the famous "Wow!" signal of 1977? The only assumption made by SETI there was that, hydrogen being the most common element in the universe, since hydrogen resonates at about 1420 MHz, extraterrestrials might use that frequency to transmit a signal. No biological assumptions were made about the aliens themselves. Joe, thanks for your spirited defense of Intelligent Design on this thread. Much appreciated.vjtorley
June 23, 2013
June
06
Jun
23
23
2013
09:50 AM
9
09
50
AM
PDT
1 2

Leave a Reply