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Darwin’s “Sacred” Cause: How Opposing Slavery Could Still Enslave

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darwin-as-ape3Those who follow the Darwin industry are very familiar with Darwin: The Life of a Tormented Evolutionist by Adrian Desmond and James Moore. In that biography they were one of the few biographers to highlight young Charles’ Edinburgh years (October 1825 to April 1827) and show the powerful influences that experience had on the teenager. Here too in Desmond and Moore’s new Darwin’s Sacred Cause, Edinburgh becomes the substantive starting point. This is as it should be since the freethinkers he would be exposed to in the radical Plinian Society (a largely student-based group Darwin seemed to relish given his attendance at all but one of its 19 meetings during his stay there) would have a profund influence on his thinking for the rest of his life. Desmond and Moore correctly acknowledge this, observing that this period “helped condition his life’s work on the deepest social — and scientific — issues” (17). Indeed the Plinians would steep Charles in a radical materialism that the present biographers admit was “mirrored” in his work a decade later (35).

All well and good so far. But not quite.  This is a book with its own cause. From the outset the authors explain frankly that , “We show the humanitarian roots that nourished Darwin’s most controversial and contested work on human ancestry” (xviii). And those “humanitarian roots,” we are told again and  again throughout its 376 narrative pages was Darwin’s passionate and unwavering hatred of slavery.  “No one has appreciated the source of that moral fire that fuelled his strange, out-of-character obsession with human origins. Understand that,” they insist, “and Darwin can be radically reassessed” (xix).  And what is that reassessment?  The reader is not left waiting:  “Ours is a book about a caring, compassionate man who was affected for life by the scream of a tortured slave” (xx).

At issue, of course, isn’t the horrific abomination of slavery nor Darwin’s abhorrence of it (this has long been known and acknowledged by historians) but rather the purported impact that Desmond and Moore claim his abolitionism had on his theory’s development and purpose.  In short, the question is, does the anti-slavery Darwin necessarily make for a “kinder, gentler” Darwin? An affirmative answer must rest upon two supports, one conceptual and the other factual. The remainder of this essay will examine both to answer this question.

 
One of the more interesting trajectories of this book is it anchoring in Darwin’s early Edinburgh years, a comparatively short period but one fraught with significance for Darwin.  In this starting point I fully concur with Desmond and Moore.  While many look to his voyage on the Beagle (December 1831 to October 1836) as introducing the young naturalist to the fullness of nature’s laboratory that would culminate in his theory of natural selection and a wholly naturalistic evolutionary theory, these authors point to the earlier Edinburgh experiences as establishing the seminal backdrop for all else that would follow.  They point out that Edinburgh was rife with discussions of race, cranial size, and phrenology.  Some attempted to demonstrate the validity of scientifc racism, others the opposite. All — or nearly all — were cast in materialistic terms. Desmond and Moore’s summary is quite accurate:

So this wasn’t the barren period Darwin in his biography would have us believe.  Issues of environmental versus anatomical determinism, and a self-animated versus a Creatively animated nature, were being thrashed out all around him, issues which would have repurcussions for generations, inside and outside Darwin’s own work.  Arguments about brain sizes, innate dispositions and racial categories were still raging, putting a consensus some way off.  Groups were competing to sway the students and Darwin was at the center of it. But the young innocent probably wasn’t so much embroiled as wide-eyed.  Still, many of these themes would later resurface in his own work on human racial descent (43).

During Darwin’s stay at Cambridge, he too was exposed to many ideas, not the least of which was a vocal but conflicted anti-slavery impluse.  Through it all, insist Desmond and Moore, Darwin “held fast with radically pliant ‘brotherbood’ science and shackle-breaking ideology in true Whig tradition” (57).  Indeed Darwin would, according to the authors, reject the measuring, weighting, calculating racial anthropologists (those self-important, confident phrenologists and physiognomists)  he had found in Edinburgh.  “No skull collecting would mark his science,” they insist.” He would find a very different way of approaching black and white, slave and free” (110).

It is important to keep this claim in mind since it is crucial to Desmond and Moore’s thesis that while he became a “secret materialist — happy to have brains secrete even religious notions as physiological byproducts” (132), he would eschew the scientific racism implicit (and more often than not explicit) in this radical materialism in favor of a wholly naturalistic theory confirming a common descent and botherhood of all mankind. They refer to it as generations of “brotherly common descents” (141).

How he accomplishes this forms a considerable part of Darwin’s Sacred Cause. Basically, by establishing common descent as a viable scientific paradigm, Darwin was able to settle the old monogenist/polygenist debate once and for all.  The monogenists viewed human development on earth as emanating from a common pair — this was, for some, most eloquently described in the opening chapters of Genesis.  But there were non-biblical monogenists as well.  Polygenists, however, believed in multiple origins for humanity.  As America headed towards Civil War, the polygenists held the upper hand.  The biblical monogenism of James Cowles Prichard (1786-1848) looked antiquated against the “scientific” racism of Josiah Clark Nott (1804-1873), George R. Gliddon (1809-1857), and others. Desmond and Moore describe in detail how Darwin sought to establish a viable counter to the polygenists with an explanation of human origins that was at once naturalistic and based upon a common descent.  In effect, a science of human oneness and brotherhood.  They describe how the publication of Darwin’s Origin in 1859 tipped the scales permanently in his favor, citing the example of Charles Loring Brace (1826-1890), an abolitionist firebrand who claimed to have read the book thirteen times.

All this is true.  Darwin was adamantly opposed to slavery, Darwin did end — eventually — the polgenists’ claim to scientific respectability.  But this alone would hardly warrant a book.  As mentioned before, historians have long known of Darwin’s consistent antipathy towards slavery.  As for his role in settling the monogenist/polygenist dispute, that too has long been known (n. 1). The essential problem with Desmond and Moore’s effort is their naive assumption that anti-slavery means egalitarian and humanitarian.  This is a conceptual problem that haunts the book throughout. There really is no reason to assume an immediate and direct relationship between the one and the other, and the example of Charles Loring Brace given above goes not only to this point but to demonstrate the selective treatment they give to this whole subject.  Charles Loring Brace was indeed a vocal opponent of slavery and also and ardent Darwinist. What Desmond and Moore do not say is that Brace viewed blacks as inherently inferior and was himself a vocal opponent of miscegenation.  In the words of historian George M. Fredrickson, Brace made “the Darwinian case for differentiation of the races by natural selection . . . [and] ended up with a view of racial differences which was far from egalitarian in its implications” (n. 2). Brace held out little hope for “the mullato” and finished up by declaring, “there is nothing in the gradual diminution and destruction of a savage or inferior race in contact with a more civilized and powerful which is ‘mysterious’ . . . . The first gifts of civilization are naturally fatal to a barbarous people . . . . (n. 3). Fredrickson quite accurately points out that “Brace’s pioneering effort to devolop a Darwinist ethnology in opposition to the American School, although animated to some degree by antislavery humanitarianism, had demonstrated that most of the hierarchical assumptions of the polygenists could be justified just as well, if not better, in Darwinian terms” (n. 4).

The example of Josiah Clark Nott underscores this point.  Desmond and Moore spend considerable time showing how the Alabamian’s rabid polygenism formed the basis for an extreme racism and justification for slavery; they fail to point out that in the end Nott was able to reconcile with Darwinism.  Nott recognized at once that he had been outdone by Darwin’s irreligious formulations.  Writing to Ephraim Squire in the summer of 1860, Nott quipped, “the man [Darwin] is clearly crazy, but it is a capital dig into the parson — it stirs up Creation and much good comes out of such thorough discuassions” (n. 5).  In the end, Nott came to accept Darwin’s theory of man’s common descent.  Indeed he claimed nothing of what he wrote on the race question was negated but simply refined, and who was not to say that even in Darwin’s world races might not be “permanent varieties” (n. 6).  The point, of course, isn’t whether or not any of this is true — it is obvious nonsense and most of Nott’s contemporaries recognized it as such — but whether Darwin’s defeat of polygenist theory and its replacement with his common descent really had any difference in the end toward establishing a science of brotherhood is doubtful.  Brace, Nott, and many others could enbrace common descent precisely because it suggested nothing close to racial brotherhood.

This poor conceptualization of anti-slavery and ipso facto humanitarianism is compounded by a misunderstanding of Darwin himself.  Desmond and Moore correctly point out the crucial impact that the Edinburgh freethinkers had upon him and his theory, but they are simply wrong in contending that he distanced himself from their emerging racial craniology.  Their denials notwithstanding, there were skulls in Darwin’s science.  In his Descent of Man (1871) Paul Boca’s crantiometry is referenced approvingly.  While Darwin was careful to avoid the implication that “the intellect of any two animals or of any two men can be accurately gauged by the cubic contents of their skulls,” he seemed to give accumulated aggregate craniometric data some evidentiary weight.  “The belief that there exists in man some close relation between the size of the brain and the development of the intellectual faculties is supported by the comparison of skulls of savage and civilized races, of ancient and modern people, and by the analogy of the whole vertebrate series” (n. 7).  Citing the work of physician/craniologist Joseph Barnard Davis (1801-1881), Darwin noted that Europeans had a cranial capacity of 92.3, Americans 87.5, Asiatics 87.1, and Australians 81.9 cubic inches.  Clearly, if Darwin did in fact believe in a brotherhood of man it was a very unequal brotherhood.

Darwin’s “bullbog defender” Thomas Henry Huxley provides yet another example.  A devoted Darwinian, Huxley did not translate common descent into common equality.  Like Brace, Huxley was relieved to witness the end of America’s “peculiar institution.”  Writing at the end of the war that had raged for four years across the Atlantic, Huxley said, “But whatever the position of stable equilibrium into which the laws of social gravitation may bring the negro, all responsibility for the result will henceforward lie between nature and him. The white man may wash his hands of it, and the Caucasian conscience be void of reproach for evermore.  And this, if we look to the bottom of the matter, is the real justification for the abolition policy” (n. 8). Even Desmond and Moore must admit that Huxley “shared none of Darwin’s ‘man and brother’ sympathy” (275).

But how keen really was that “man and brother” sympathy for Darwin himself?  After well over 300 pages of explication designed to show how Darwin’s anti-slavery passion led to his “brotherly common descent” we find the crux of the matter:  “It was a humanitarianism that Darwin took pride in. His anti-slavery and anti-cruelty ethic was inviolate. Yet the incongruity of his class holding this ethic sacrosanct while disparaging the ‘lower’ classes (even as colonists displaced or exterminated them) [emphasis added] is impossible to comprehend by twenty-first century standards” (370).  Darwin was indeed a product of his class as any reading of his Descent will prove; in fact, it formed the very basis of his conception of man as a social animal (n. 9).  But it will take more than Desmond and Moore’s eight pages of dismissive discussion of Descent to see that.  Instead the quotation above would imply they’re trying get Darwin off the hook by pleading he was just a “man of his times” and failure to appreciate this dichotomy is mere presentism.  Frankly, it would have been incomprehensible for some in the nineteenth century as well — Thaddeus Stevens (1792-1868), Theodore Weld (1803-1895), William Lloyd Garrison (1805-1879), Wendell Phillips (1811-1884), John Marshall Harlan (1833-1911), and George Frisbie Hoar (1826-1904) found this kind of hypocracy repugnant.  Darwin’s work was supposed to be prescient, path-breaking, revolutionary.  But by book’s end Darwin looks pretty conventional, even compliantly if somewhat minimally racist himself.  Writing to former slave-holder Charles Kingsley, Darwin admits, “It is very true what you say about the higher races of men, when high enough, will have spread & exterminated whole nations.”  Desmond and Moore admit, “racial genocide was now normalized by natural selection and rationalized as nature’s way of producing ‘superior’ races. Darwin ended up calibrating human ‘rank’ no differently from the rest of his society.  After shunning talk of ‘high’ and ‘low’ in his youthful evolution books, he had ceased to be unique or interesting on the subject” (318).

So in the end we find Darwin’s “sacred” cause was, well, not all that sacred. His cause was less about slavery and more about common descent, which in the final analysis had nothing whatsoever to do with equality.  In fact, it could easily be argued Darwin cleared out the polygenists to give way to a new generation of racial discriminators and engineers.  Based upon Darwinian principles, Darwin’s fascination with breeder and domestic stocks, opened the door to manipulating human “stock,” of managing and even culling the “unfit.” Not that Darwin himself would have condoned that, but surely, Francis Galton (1822-1911), took the evolutionary ball handed him by his cousin and ran with it.  In the end, Darwin’s cause was hardly humanitarian and by no means sacred.  As the lampooning cartoon that opens this essay suggests, if Darwin proved that man is a mere animal related (however distantly) to his ape ancestors then, like the domestic pigeons he was so fond of studying and analogizing from, mankind was capable of being bred, manipulated, and “improved.”  That sort of biological historicism unleashed by Darwinian theory has exacted an enormous price.

Of course, this suggests a connection between Darwin and the more unseemly Social Darwism.  I have likely imposed upon the reader’s time long enough, but for those who would like to explore this in greater detail, Mike Hawkin’s Social Darwinism in European and American Thought, 1860-1945 (Cambridge UP, 1997) is highly recommended.  For now, I will simply say that Darwin’s Sacred Cause has proved not what its authors intended, but instead that passionate opposition to slavery could — indeed did — enslave this Victorian elitist who was shackled (if not by racism) by a theory that was crafted to support his own class and prejudice.  History is full of irony!

Notes

1. See Herbert H. Odum, “Generalizations on Race in Nineteenth-Century Physical Anthropology,” Isis 58.1 (Spring 1967): 4-18.

2. George M. Fredrickson, The Black Image in the White Mind: The Debate on Afro-American Character and Destiny, 1817-1914 (New York: Harper Torchbook, 1971), p. 234.

3. Quoted in Ibid., p. 235.

4. Ibid.

5. John S. Haller Jr., Outcasts from Evolution: Scientific Attitudes of Racial Inferiority, 1859-1900, 2nd ed. (Carbondale: Southern Illinois University Press, 1995), p. 80.

6. Ibid.

7. Charles Darwin, Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex (1871; reprinted, New York: Barnes & Noble, 2004), p. 42.

8. Thomas Henry Huxley, “Emancipation — Black and White” (1865),  http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE3/B&W.html accessed 2/15/09.

9.  Like his fellow Victorian imperialists, Darwin could view the extinction of indigenous peoples with an unsettling indifference. There is considerable evidence to support the view that Darwin saw struggle as product of culture and class more than race:  “When civilized nations come into contact with barbarians the sturggle is short, except where a deadly climate gives its aid to the native race. Of the causes which lead to the victory of civilized nations, some are plain and simple, others complex and obscure. We can see that the cultivation of the land will be fatal in many ways to savages, for they cannot, or will not, change their habits. . . . The grade of their civilization seems to be a most important element in the success of competing nations.” Descent, op. cit., p. 156.

Darwin always viewed indigenous peoples with the Eurocentric eyes of power and class, and he had thought this long before writing Descent. In The Voyage of the Beagle he wrote the following of the natives he encountered on Tierra del Fuego:

The perfect equality among the individuals composing the Fuegian tribes must for a long time retard their civilization. As we see those animals, whose instinct compels them to live in society and obey a chief, are most capable of improvement, so it is with the races of mankind. Whether we look at it as a cause or consequence, the more civilized always have the more artificial governments. For instance, the inhabitants of Otaheite, who, when first discovered, were governed by hereditary kings, had arrived at a far higher grade than another branch of the same people, the New Zealanders, — who, although benefited by being compelled to turn their attention to agriculture, were republicans in the most absolute sense. In Tierra del Fuego, until some chief shall arise with power sufficient to secure any acquired advantage, such as the domestication of animals, it seems scarcely possible that the political state of the country can be improved. At present, even a piece of cloth given to one is torn into shreds and distributed; and no one individual becomes richer than another. On the other hand, it is difficult to understand how a chief can arise till there is property of some sort by which he might manifest his superiority and increase his power.

I believe, in this extreme part of South America, man exists in a lower state of improvement than in any other part of the world. — Charles Darwin, The Voyage of the Beagle, 2nd ed. (1845; reprinted, New York: Tess Press, n.d.), pp. 214-215.

Basing Darwin’s humanitarianism on his abhorrence of slavery and a purported “brotherhood of man” largely misses the point. Historians have long known that Darwin’s racial classifications were based more upon levels of cultural attainment than ethnic groups. See, for example, Goria McConnaughey, “Darwin and Social Darwinism,” Osiris 9 (1950): 397-412.

Comments
A few specific responses to StephenB Stephenb “How one feels about art is partly a function of the objective quality of the art and partly a function of personal taste. There is such a thing as beauty, goodness, being, and unity. Equally true, there is such a thing as truth and justice. The natural moral law is one of those objective realities, the violation of which will reap consequences just as surely as any violation of a physical law. Objective morality produces direction, happiness, freedom, and life; moral relativism promotes confusion, misery, slavery, and death.” You make these assertions without any supporting argument or evidence. They are all philosophical controversies which have been going on for millenia. That’s why I did not talk about the film being beautiful or artistic but stuck to the more prosaic “boring”. As far as I know there is no theory that boringness is some kind of transcendental property. Mark Frank: —–“I might be unlucky and find the monster has no moral feelings at all. In which case I have no way of persuading them that anything is wrong.” Stephenb - That is correct. You have no standard or any rational justification for asking him to stop torturing babies. Darwinists can provide no rational justification for any good act, nor can the provide any rational objection to any bad act. So, you should apologize to me for suggesting that I was once rude to you, since there is no objective standard for justice that makes rudeness wrong. You argue from “there is no objective property - good” to conclude “there is no rational justification for any good act”. That’s a fallacy. There is no objective property “boringness”. But there is plenty of rational justification for avoiding films which are generally perceived as boring. Mark Frank –“I can do a lot to persuade this chap that baby torture is wrong and that I am not guilty of a hate crime. I can find inconsistencies in his position. I can try to get him to imagine how much the babies will suffer. I can point to some of the consequences of baby torture that he had not thought of. But in the end I cannot make a logically incontrovertable case unless he has some moral feelings. I cannot derive what he ought to do simply from what is. I have to find something that he thinks people ought to do.” Stephenb - He does what he “feels” is right for him. He has no standard other than his feelings and you have nothing to offer him except your feelings. What if you do ask him to imagine how much the babies suffer? So what? Why should he care? That is my point. If someone is so very different from the rest of humanity there is no way to get through to him. Luckily very few such people exist. Unluckily they sometimes get into positions of great power. Stephenb - I just told you a few days or so ago that millions of babies suffer from abortion. It didn’t move you. Actually I just didn’t respond. I have personal reasons for avoiding this particular issue. StephenB When behavior is based on sentiment and personal preferences, chaos follows. The natural moral law is there for all to follow, and it is the only principle around which a well-ordered society can be maintained. “sentiment and personal preferences” makes it sound like ethical judgements are whimsical and idiosyncratic. They are in fact based on deep rooted feelings in the human psyche. You might as well say that the decision to care for your children is based on sentiment and personal preferences. Whether this leads to chaos is hard to say. I think that all ethical judgements are of this nature and not all societies are chaotic. So clearly I don’t agree. Stephenb - Darwinists, of course, have no standard for morality, and worse, they militate against the one standard that does exist, just as you are doing. That is why they are the enemy of society. In any case, if you explain to the one who tortures babies that there are “consequences” he has not thought of, he may counter that there are “benefits” that you haven’t thought of. Utilitarianism doesn’t work. This is just a diatribe not an argument. Materialists have moral standards. They are just rooted in different sources – as explained above. Stephenb - Also, I thought we settled the point that we are moving from an “is” to an “is.” So, why are you going over that area again. We are not going from an “is” to an “ought.” Do I need to go back over that? I am sorry I gave that impression (where?). I don’t think it is possible to go from “is” to “ought”. But I don’t think moral statements are statements of fact. So we are not going from an “is” to an “is”. We have a real problem bridging the gap. Which is why we have to assume some kind of underlying moral feelings. Mark: “But let me emphasise again - this does not mean that when I think something is good I mean that it assists human social setups.” StephenB - Don’t you mean “when I ‘feel” something is good?” You have already acknowledged that you don’t accept that there is any such thing as objective moraliy, so you can hardly think that any act is really good nor can you think that any act is really bad. You can either be pleased by an act or you can be repulsed by an act, but you cannot think it to be good or bad. Others may, for example, be pleased by that which you find repulsive, for example torture. Why should we not go with the sadists feelings rather than yours. I am not sure if I can think of any more ways to explain this. I do think things are good and bad. When I do it I am expressing my personal attitude to that thing underpinned by my belief that others will see it the same way. I am not talking about some kind of pretend goodness. I am not under an illusion. It was I mean by good and bad. It is very similar to when I say that a film is boring.Mark Frank
February 25, 2009
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ericB I will go straight to the question at the heart of your comment: Is it reasonable, from a materialist Darwinian viewpoint, to claim that anything nature has done was wrong? (As an aside - it is possible to be a "Darwinian" and also believe in objective morality. I imagine Ken Miller falls into that category. However, I agree that being a Darwinian makes it easier to be an atheist, materialist, and hold that ethics is a facet of human nature.) Literally the answer has to be "no" for both you and me. Nature is just not the kind of thing that can do good or bad or be praised or blamed. People can. Some animals can. But not nature as whole. I guess you mean something like: Is it reasonable, from a materialist Darwinian viewpoint, to claim that anything done by an organism which is the result of natural selection is wrong? But then you add a qualifier It is about whether anything has been truly, objectively, morally wrong. I have to take the two parts separately. I think it is reasonable to claim that someone has done something wrong. But I don't think that is a claim about something that is objectively true. I am not redefining "wrong". I think you just don't think you fully appreciate how you and I both use the word "wrong". That sounds arrogant, telling you what you mean by a word, but it is actually a difficult matter to describe exactly what we mean by quite common words such as "true", "wrong", "meaning" etc. Even though we use them with complete confidence in ordinary larnguage. It is the subject of linguistic philosophy. The particular bugbear is the feeling that a word must get its meaning from naming something. Its meaning is what it refers to. So you feel that "wrong" refers to a property - the wrongness of the act. And when I deny that you conclude it must refer to my subjective feelings. Because it must refer to something. In my opinion Wittgenstein's biggest contribution to philosophy was to show how this picture of language is inadequate (ironically he never applied this mode of thought to ethics as far as I know.) He pointed out that the meaning of words comes from their role in human activity - just as the meaning of the term "checkmate" in chess is not captured by listing all the configurations of pieces which count as checkmate. It requires the whole context of the rules of chess and the objectives of the competitors. So ethical terms such as "right" and "wrong" come from their role in the whole set of behaviours and expectations that we call morality. The challenge is to describe that set of behaviours and expectations. To summarise. It is perfectly rational for materialists to use the words right and wrong to refer to human (and some animal) activity. But this does not mean that right and wrong refer to objective transcendental entities.Mark Frank
February 25, 2009
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Mark Frank, now it is my turn to be short on time. A quick response now, and possibly more later tonight.
You seem to be concerned about how Darwinian evolution could lead to morality as we practice it. This is, of course, a well known problem. How can altruism arise ...
The origin of altruism is an interesting challenge for Darwinism. However, it is not at all a part of my question in this thread. In fact, I am not here questioning whether Darwinism can build the species we see. The question I have is specifically about how materialists seem repeatedly unable to live within the amoral implications of a Darwinian view of life. I find that they often fall back on talking as if morality had real existence, or that it is logical to debunk God and yet talk as if we could still retain concepts that depend upon His existence, such as inalienable human rights. In a nutshell, the question I have put forward is basically this. Is it reasonable, from a materialist Darwinian viewpoint, to claim that anything nature has done was wrong? Notice I didn't ask how you might define an idea of goodness for yourself, or choose a code of behavior for yourself, etc. Or whether people have feelings or preferences. It is about whether anything has been truly, objectively, morally wrong. After materialists have (supposedly) debunked the idea that mankind is fundamentally and qualitatively more than just another animal, I find them nevertheless reluctant to embrace the consequence that man is another species, another product of nature, and not fundamentally or qualitatively different from other animals in regard to the inappropriateness of calling human behavior (yet another product of that same process) wrong. Darwin is repulsed by some of what he sees in nature, yet that is not morally wrong. Once we (supposedly) understand how that appeared, we can see it as the expected consequence of that process -- despite our feelings of repulsion. If man is not fundamentally different, then man is not fundamentally different. Some of what people do may repulse some other people. The materialist is equally unable to call any of those behaviors wrong. In the Darwinian view, like them or hate them, they are exactly what they are as a result of the very same process. The idea that it has taken a wrong turn or that it ought to have gone some other way is, I believe, incoherent in that position and incompatible with it. I realize that one approach is to redefine the word "wrong" but that is a dodge. The moral question I am raising applies to the human behavior just as it would to that of other species in the Darwinian view. Does that help clarify the issue?ericB
February 24, 2009
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----Mark: "But let me emphasise again - this does not mean that when I think something is good I mean that it assists human social setups." Don't you mean "when I 'feel" something is good?" You have already acknowledged that you don't accept that there is any such thing as objective moraliy, so you can hardly think that any act is really good nor can you think that any act is really bad. You can either be pleased by an act or you can be repulsed by an act, but you cannot think it to be good or bad. Others may, for example, be pleased by that which you find repulsive, for example torture. Why should we not go with the sadists feelings rather than yours.StephenB
February 24, 2009
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----Mark Frank: “It is subjective as to whether you find a film boring. But some films are indisputably boring.” How one feels about art is partly a function of the objective quality of the art and partly a function of personal taste. There is such a thing as beauty, goodness, being, and unity. Equally true, there is such a thing as truth and justice. The natural moral law is one of those objective realities, the violation of which will reap consequences just as surely as any violation of a physical law. Objective morality produces direction, happiness, freedom, and life; moral relativism promotes confusion, misery, slavery, and death. -----“I might be unlucky and find the monster has no moral feelings at all. In which case I have no way of persuading them that anything is wrong.” That is correct. You have no standard or any rational justification for asking him to stop torturing babies. Darwinists can provide no rational justification for any good act, nor can the provide any rational objection to any bad act. So, you should apologize to me for suggesting that I was once rude to you, since there is no objective standard for justice that makes rudeness wrong. -----“I can do a lot to persuade this chap that baby torture is wrong and that I am not guilty of a hate crime. I can find inconsistencies in his position. I can try to get him to imagine how much the babies will suffer. I can point to some of the consequences of baby torture that he had not thought of. But in the end I cannot make a logically incontrovertable case unless he has some moral feelings. I cannot derive what he ought to do simply from what is. I have to find something that he thinks people ought to do.” He does what he “feels” is right for him. He has no standard other than his feelings and you have nothing to offer him except your feelings. What if you do ask him to imagine how much the babies suffer? So what? Why should he care? I just told you a few days or so ago that millions of babies suffer from abortion. It didn’t move you. When behavior is based on sentiment and personal preferences, chaos follows. The natural moral law is there for all to follow, and it is the only principle around which a well-ordered society can be maintained. Darwinists, of course, have no standard for morality, and worse, they militate against the one standard that does exist, just as you are doing. That is why they are the enemy of society. In any case, if you explain to the one who tortures babies that there are “consequences” he has not thought of, he may counter that there are “benefits” that you haven’t thought of. Utilitarianism doesn’t work. Also, I thought we settled the point that we are moving from an “is” to an “is.” So, why are you going over that area again. We are not going from an "is" to an "ought." Do I need to go back over thatStephenB
February 24, 2009
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ericB I have time to pick this up in more detail. You seem to be concerned about how Darwinian evolution could lead to morality as we practice it. This is, of course, a well known problem. How can altruism arise if individuals are only selected for attributes which further their personal fitness? Large numbers of papers have been written and studies performed on the subject. I am not at all familiar with the latest research but I am sure that it has moved beyond looking at each organism's role as predator or prey. Organisms have many roles to play in life which may or may contribute to their fitness - predator and prey are just two. Full blown morality is only found among humans. Partial moral practices are found among other animals with complex social setups. It seems pretty obvious that morality has arisen out of the need to function effectively in a social set-up and the associated roles. But let me emphasise again - this does not mean that when I think something is good I mean that it assists human social setups. To use another favourite example - we have developed a taste for sweetness because when we evolved that taste we needed calories. That doesn't mean a taste for sweetness is a taste for calories. Maybe a little question for you. Suppose there is some objective property "good" or "right" which you can deduce or intuit or perceive when studying someone's actions. Why should you therefore want to support/perpetuate/encourage those actions?Mark Frank
February 24, 2009
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Ericb I have only 20 minutes to respond before I go to work. So I will pick up a couple of key points. There is a difference between what causes my moral attitude (a combination of nature and nuture) and what I mean when I make a moral statement. To pursue the film analogy. I might be aware of aspects of the film that are very interesting and worthwhile because of my prior reading and upbringing. But when I say the film is interesting I am not saying something about my prior reading and upbringing. I am talking about the film. I have a viewpoint which I believe others can share. I may be able to explain that viewpoint better by reference to my background. But I am not making a statement about that background. The cause of morality may be that prey don't like being prey (actually I am sure its subtler than that). But that doesn't mean that morality is about not being prey. As an aside - I think you overstate the role of religion in democracy. Doesn't Athens - where the word comes from - get a mention?Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
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Mark Frank, I think your film analogy provides a helpful illustration, one that I haven't heard before. Please correct me if I take the wrong meaning from it. It's my understanding that you don't intend that morality in the materialist sense is simply a matter of a majority view, since you qualify what you mean by "this is wrong" as follows.
I am expressing my reaction to what he is doing grounded in the belief that the vast majority of people would agree with me – or would agree with me if they knew what I knew. [emphasis added]
So it is essentially an emotional response (i.e. "reaction") that you would claim is tied to your expectation of how most people would react if they shared your knowledge. A fundamental problem is that you have not specified the perspective for the reaction. If people identify with the victim or with the oppressed, yes most probably would find it disagreeable. If people identify with the victor who benefits, that would not be so. It is obvious from history that the elites tend to empathize with the elites and react accordingly. There is no surprise in this. To see the matter from the Darwinian perspective, you get different answers depending on whether you take the view of the predator or of the prey. Now I will fully grant that if it came to a "vote" there are typically more among the prey than among the predators. But it would be nonsense to find a poll of the reactions of the prey influential to the predators. "Do you react negatively to the idea of being eaten?" (or "being paralyzed and used as food for my next generation?") 98.2% respond Yes. The predator responds "So what? 99.9% of predators react favorably to the idea of eating, as do I. And my vote is the only one that counts with me." Nature is not a democracy. The democratic ideals we have came from religious influence, starting with the fact that in the Jewish understanding of the law, the whole nation was under God and God's law, including the king. This perspective was extended and spread by Christianity throughout western culture. The idea of inalienable humans rights and the legal equality of mankind are grounded in belief in a God whose authority supersedes mankind's governments. This is certainly not derived from watching Darwinian processes in action. There is a book: In Business As in Life, You Don't Get What You Deserve, You Get What You Negotiate In nature, "negotiation" is typically tooth and claw against horn and hoof. In nature, you simply get whatever you can get. So when we boil it down to its essence, your conception of a materialist take on morality seems to me to come down to this. Prey don't like being prey and react negatively toward it. (Ditto all manner of the oppressed, the used.) Meanwhile, the predators react quite positively. (Ditto all manner of the dominant, the oppressors, the users.) In the Darwinian perspective, this is resolved as follows: "Have at it. Let's see who comes out a surviving reproducer." In that perspective, there is nothing wrong at all, regardless of any emotional reactions. Of course the oppressed and those used react negatively. That motivates them to resist. Of course the predators and users react positively. That motivates them to persist. And that is how, in the Darwinian view, it has always been with life. Why should anyone expect it to be differently? The whole system works because there are plenty of the oppressed to be used, plenty of the prey to feed upon. So, the idea of persuading the predators to see that it is wrong to prey upon the prey -- because most prey react negatively to this -- doesn't seem to hold up as a sturdy notion of morality. What it comes to is the brute struggle. The only "right" is the right of might.ericB
February 23, 2009
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PPPS: EricB, your reference to H G Wells' warning in his other major sci fi novel, Time Machine, is also very apt.kairosfocus
February 23, 2009
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PS: Documentation: 1] MF, 110: >>Humans are unique in that they are the only species that are susceptible to moral emotions such as pity, loyalty, and justice. But this is nothing to do with a moral higher order or choosing to live above our base instincts. It is simply a fact of our psychological make up which has itself evolved. . . . . If a psychopath cannot see why torturing babies is wrong than I cannot logically prove it to him/her – I can only appeal to other things they do find wrong and hope to show an inconsistency in their views. Luckily there are very few psychopaths in the world. The fact is most of us find torturing babies utterly repugnant and will do a lot to prevent others doing it. This subjective view of morality is passionate and firmly grounded in a common core of values among humanity. [MF, where did such a common core come from on your worldview3, and why should we heed it . .. ?] I could do on and explain my problems with objective views of morality – but hopefully this explains why I am comfortable with the “amorality of my world view”.>> 2] MF, 114: >> I will pretend I am the psychopath. Whatever justification you offer the psychopath can respond – “I don’t think that makes torturing babies wrong” and you will have no way of proving the psychopath mistaken. >> 3] Sev, 13: >> Koukl is conceding [nope, he is premising his point on the fact that we do and find ourselves bound to act as accepting that evil and thence morality objectively exist and binds us to "ought"] that there is no evidence [ah, but you are demanding evidence of PHYSICAL existence of the mental order . . . begging a big ontological qn that we have no right to presume] to suggest that moral rules [and propositions and numbers etc] have any existence outside human imagination [of course this is another, rhetorically loaded, way of saying that he concepts which we must act on to be rational moral creatures, are non-physical; which was not at stake . . . ] . . . . Koukl has effectively conceded [note the emotionally loaded rhetorical distraction and distortion again; he actually started from the fact that we find ourselves morally bound and in that context that we find evil objectionable; then he asked what follows from the fact that atheists often passionately pose the problem of evil as a warrant for their atheism?] that moral rules have no existence outside of the imagination [loaded term again, with ontological Qn-begging]. He proposes a non-physical realm [nope, he observe that we act on the assumed reality of abstract entities: good/evil and morality, number, proposition etc] in which these moral rules [and a few other things such as propositions and number, neatly overstepped by Sev . . . ] can be said to exist but offers no reason to think it is any more ‘real’ than the moral rules themselves [apart from that to live as moral rational creatures we must and do act on them . . . ]. Without that we are left with the inference that this non-physical realm is as much a product of the imagination as the rules. >> ________________ The case is clear enough methinks, and we must now ask ourselves, per factual adequacy, logical and moral coherence and explanatory power, which view of reality makes for the most reasonable faith? And, for sure, it is evident that evolutionary materialists have not at all cornered the market on rationality, as they so often imagine. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 23, 2009
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Onlookers: It seems that thanks to the frank admissions by Mark Frank [living up to his name . . . ] and Seversky, we have turned an important corner at UD this weekend. For, it is now plain for all to see that evolutionary materialism driven subjectivism and relativism, end in amorality [MF, 110, 114 pace 116] and in denial of the objectivity of not only moral truth but also of the closely conjoined abstract entities, proposition and number [Sev., 113], i.e. the hard core of science. So, we now know the implications of the evolutionary materialist option on worldviews, not only from those who object, but from those who seek to defend it. Therefore, we know the worldview level choice we must make, per comparative difficulties [Cf here, here and here], and what is at stake. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 23, 2009
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#117 Mark Frank: “Evolution is not itself teleological but it creates organisms that are teleological.” This statement can only be true if evolution is an effect and not a cause; i.e. evolution acting as transmission, changing life’s ‘gears’ once ‘acted’ upon. I see no justification for this at all. Evolution creates things with many properties which evolution does not have itself. For example, evolution is not greedy, sexual, or mortal. You really need to explain why it cannot create a teleological entity.Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
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Mark Frank: "Evolution is not itself teleological but it creates organisms that are teleological." This statement can only be true if evolution is an effect and not a cause; i.e. evolution acting as transmission, changing life's 'gears' once 'acted' upon.Oramus
February 23, 2009
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Ericb Mark Frank, Thank you for the thoughtful response to my open questions to materialists. I’m enjoying the dialogue and appreciate your contributions. Thanks – you are on my list of people worth debating with. Using psychopaths as the illustrating example would be inadequate to address the question, not only because they are so statistically anomalous, but also because the idea of a “psychopath” inescapably carries strong connotations of having something “wrong” with them, and of being at least developmentally deformed if not biochemically dysfunctional. The kind of example you need to wrestle with is the healthy, intelligent, rational, internally consistent, and (by his measure at least) successful individual who can use his strength, abilities, fitness, and power to squeeze benefit for himself and his descendants out of the lives of others who are shown to be inferior by his successful dominance over them, and perhaps also by their declining numbers. In short, by any Darwinian measure, this state of affairs is working well for him and his descendants, not unlike breeding insects. However, you, like Darwin, feel repugnance toward his means of achieving this, perhaps because you feel empathy toward the oppressed. As an aside - there are people who are in other respects mentally normal but have little or no moral feelings. It is called dangerous personality disorder and it is contentious as to whether it is appropriate for psychiatrists to deal with them. But I will go with your example… The question — Are your feelings telling you something that is true about that behavior, i.e. that such behavior is indeed, objectively wrong, whatever some may think or feel? Or do you affirm and embrace the amorality of materialism, affirming that the feeling of genuine, objective moral “wrong” is an illusion, and that these feelings are actually describing what you don’t like? I don’t think my feelings are telling me anything about their behaviour other than what is observable. However, I don’t call this amoral. And when I say “this is wrong” I am not describing my feelings. I am expressing my reaction to what he is doing grounded in the belief that the vast majority of people would agree with me – or would agree with me if they knew what I knew. Here is a close analogy which may help. Suppose there is a film which has a reputation of boring and trivial. I watch and get a sudden insight as to what it is all about and that makes it very interesting and deep (perhaps I read a relevant book). So now I say to friends “actually that film is very interesting”. This is more than a report of my feelings. I am saying something about the film. But my statement is grounded in my belief about how others would react to that film and there isn’t a separate objective property “the interestingness” of the film over and above what is in it. If [...X...] cannot see why [...Y...] is wrong than I cannot logically prove it to him/her – I can only appeal to other things they do find wrong and hope to show an inconsistency in their views. Whether you could succeed or not is far less interesting than looking at what you are trying to do. You talked earlier about “moral emotions” which you clearly distinguished from transcendent moral truth or as you said “moral higher order.” Yet you did not say that you were trying to prove to this individual that you were having an emotion of repugnance toward what he had done. You talked about their inability to “see why [it] is wrong” and the limited recourse you would have in that case. One cannot see what is not true or what does not exist. It would be irrational to expect someone to see something that wasn’t so. Notice that if you had really meant to show or prove to him that you had a feeling of repugnance about this act, that would have been easily done. (If you eat meat, someday a Vegan may want to express her repugnance at what you eat for food.) Obviously that is not the intended aim. But if reality is amoral with regard to the behaviors themselves, then what is the meaning of expecting someone to “see that [it] is wrong”? This is the language of moral realism, not amoral materialism. I hope the film analogy will help answer this. I am not trying to prove to them what my reaction is. I am trying to get them to have the same reaction by seeing it my way. I want them to see why the film is fascinating. I get the strong impression that, even from your response, when facing morally objectionable issues, materialists find it difficult not to slip back into treating morality as if it were objectively real, rather than a form of personal emotions. If it were just your moral emotions, upon what basis do you expect those who do not share your emotions to convert to *your* emotions? To put it another way, there is an alternate solution. Something could be done by you or to you to remove those particular emotions. Whether by scalpel, or drugs, or reeducation, you might be adjusted to where you don’t find the same things repugnant. That would also solve the discrepancy. Now, would it be objectively wrong for someone to do that to you? Even if you afterward approved and felt fine about it? I would find it repugnant now. I would no longer find it repugnant then. I would resist it happening now and try to persuade others not to do it. I would stop doing it after the operation. End of story.Mark Frank
February 23, 2009
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Mark Frank, Thank you for the thoughtful response to my open questions to materialists. I'm enjoying the dialogue and appreciate your contributions. You expressed one concern that can be put to rest.
"First you seem to jump from “evolution is without purpose” (which I believe to be true) to the conclusion that “human beings act without purpose” (which is obviously not true). ..."
That is not the case at all. (Are you confusing my posts with someone else perhaps? Did you notice my forewarning #2 and its implications?) I certainly agree, for instance, that the rapist and the gladiator are acting intentionally.
Most dog owners will tell you that dogs can feel shame and loyalty – but not compassion or a desire for justice!
But what about Lassie! Say it isn't so. ;-) [Sorry, but I couldn't resist the digression.]
If a psychopath cannot see why torturing babies is wrong ... Luckily there are very few psychopaths in the world.
Using psychopaths as the illustrating example would be inadequate to address the question, not only because they are so statistically anomalous, but also because the idea of a "psychopath" inescapably carries strong connotations of having something "wrong" with them, and of being at least developmentally deformed if not biochemically dysfunctional. The kind of example you need to wrestle with is the healthy, intelligent, rational, internally consistent, and (by his measure at least) successful individual who can use his strength, abilities, fitness, and power to squeeze benefit for himself and his descendants out of the lives of others who are shown to be inferior by his successful dominance over them, and perhaps also by their declining numbers. In short, by any Darwinian measure, this state of affairs is working well for him and his descendants, not unlike breeding insects. However, you, like Darwin, feel repugnance toward his means of achieving this, perhaps because you feel empathy toward the oppressed. You could think of historical examples, or, if you know of The Time Machine, perhaps of the Morlocks and their Eloi. The question -- Are your feelings telling you something that is true about that behavior, i.e. that such behavior is indeed, objectively wrong, whatever some may think or feel? Or do you affirm and embrace the amorality of materialism, affirming that the feeling of genuine, objective moral "wrong" is an illusion, and that these feelings are actually describing what you don't like?
If [...X...] cannot see why [...Y...] is wrong than I cannot logically prove it to him/her – I can only appeal to other things they do find wrong and hope to show an inconsistency in their views.
Whether you could succeed or not is far less interesting than looking at what you are trying to do. You talked earlier about "moral emotions" which you clearly distinguished from transcendent moral truth or as you said "moral higher order." Yet you did not say that you were trying to prove to this individual that you were having an emotion of repugnance toward what he had done. You talked about their inability to "see why [it] is wrong" and the limited recourse you would have in that case. One cannot see what is not true or what does not exist. It would be irrational to expect someone to see something that wasn't so. Notice that if you had really meant to show or prove to him that you had a feeling of repugnance about this act, that would have been easily done. (If you eat meat, someday a Vegan may want to express her repugnance at what you eat for food.) Obviously that is not the intended aim. But if reality is amoral with regard to the behaviors themselves, then what is the meaning of expecting someone to "see that [it] is wrong"? This is the language of moral realism, not amoral materialism. I get the strong impression that, even from your response, when facing morally objectionable issues, materialists find it difficult not to slip back into treating morality as if it were objectively real, rather than a form of personal emotions. If it were just your moral emotions, upon what basis do you expect those who do not share your emotions to convert to *your* emotions? To put it another way, there is an alternate solution. Something could be done by you or to you to remove those particular emotions. Whether by scalpel, or drugs, or reeducation, you might be adjusted to where you don't find the same things repugnant. That would also solve the discrepancy. Now, would it be objectively wrong for someone to do that to you? Even if you afterward approved and felt fine about it?ericB
February 22, 2009
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StephenB #112 No, it is not true, for reasons that I have explained in some detail. Sorry – what is not true? I have lost track. It is refreshing, however, and, to your credit, that you acknowledge the bare truth of your philosophy of life. A Darwinist cannot explain in rational, objective terms why a psychopath should not torture babies. And neither can you … you think you can, but you can’t. Try it if you like. I will pretend I am the psychopath. Whatever justification you offer the psychopath can respond – “I don’t think that makes torturing babies wrong” and you will have no way of proving the psychopath mistaken. —-…..”I can only appeal to other things they do find wrong and hope to show an inconsistency in their views.” If morality is subjective, then there is nothing wrong with torturing babies. Not true. It is subjective as to whether you find a film boring. But some films are indisputably boring. In any case, you have no standard for consistency to appeal to. Surely, at least that much is obvious. Not at all obvious. Suppose for example the psychopath agrees that torturing cats is wrong. Then I can ask them what it is about babies that makes it OK to torture them but while it is not OK to torture cats. Even at that, what makes you think that such a moral monster would think he/she does anything wrong in other contexts? Nothing – I might be unlucky and find the monster has no moral feelings at all. In which case I have no way of persuading them that anything is wrong. Moral relativists judge right and wrong based on personal feelings. If the baby killer feels his behavior is right, then you have no rational justification for questioning his feelings or for recommending a change in behavior. Perhaps he feels that you have an irrational bias against baby killers and ought to be prosecuted for a hate crime. You have no rational defense against this argument. This is just to repeat what has gone before. I can do a lot to persuade this chap that baby torture is wrong and that I am not guilty of a hate crime. I can find inconsistencies in his position. I can try to get him to imagine how much the babies will suffer. I can point to some of the consequences of baby torture that he had not thought of. But in the end I cannot make a logically incontrovertable case unless he has some moral feelings. I cannot derive what he ought to do simply from what is. I have to find something that he thinks people ought to do. Darwinism destroys both the culture and the life of the mind. That is why babies DO get tortued and killed by the millions, and that is why we excuse it. Every day four thousand more get burned alive, torn apart, and murdered in the womb (or out if they are strong enough to survive the assault) because our perverse culture “feels” like doing it. Amorality ALWAYS leads to immoratliy, and lies always lead to death. It appears you think Darwinism is responsible for modern attitudes to abortion. This is very controversial position which would take far more than a comment on blog to resolve.Mark Frank
February 22, 2009
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kairosfocus @ 111
The first thing we observe about [such] moral rules is that, though they exist, they are not physical because they don’t seem to have physical properties. We won’t bump into them in the dark. They don’t extend into space. They have no weight. They have no chemical characteristics. Instead, they are immaterial things we discover through the process of thought, introspection, and reflection without the aid of our five senses . . . .
In other words, Koukl is conceding that there is no evidence to suggest that moral rules have any existence outside human imagination.
We have, with a high degree of certainty, stumbled upon something real. Yet it’s something that can’t be proven empirically or described in terms of natural laws. This teaches us there’s more to the world than just the physical universe. If non-physical things–like moral rules–truly exist, then materialism as a world view is false.
...which raises the question of what it means to exist. Koukl has effectively conceded that moral rules have no existence outside of the imagination. He proposes a non-physical realm in which these moral rules can be said to exist but offers no reason to think it is any more 'real' than the moral rules themselves. Without that we are left with the inference that this non-physical realm is as much a product of the imagination as the rules. There may well be other aspects of reality of which we are as yet ignorant, but our ignorance is just that. It is a gap which, a we know, can be populated with gods or anything else we would like to exist but we have no reason to think that such things actually exist thereSeversky
February 22, 2009
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----Mark Frank: "The standard response is to object that this makes morality purely a matter of personal preference. To some extent this is true. If a psychopath cannot see why torturing babies is wrong than I cannot logically prove it to him/her – I can only appeal to other things they do find wrong and hope to show an inconsistency in their views." No, it is not true, for reasons that I have explained in some detail. It is refreshing, however, and, to your credit, that you acknowledge the bare truth of your philosophy of life. A Darwinist cannot explain in rational, objective terms why a psychopath should not torture babies. ----....."I can only appeal to other things they do find wrong and hope to show an inconsistency in their views." If morality is subjective, then there is nothing wrong with torturing babies. In any case, you have no standard for consistency to appeal to. Surely, at least that much is obvious. Even at that, what makes you think that such a moral monster would think he/she does anything wrong in other contexts? Moral relativists judge right and wrong based on personal feelings. If the baby killer feels his behavior is right, then you have no rational justification for questioning his feelings or for recommending a change in behavior. Perhaps he feels that you have an irrational bias against baby killers and ought to be prosecuted for a hate crime. You have no rational defense against this argument. Darwinism destroys both the culture and the life of the mind. That is why babies DO get tortued and killed by the millions, and that is why we excuse it. Every day four thousand more get burned alive, torn apart, and murdered in the womb (or out if they are strong enough to survive the assault) because our perverse culture "feels" like doing it. Amorality ALWAYS leads to immoratliy, and lies always lead to death.StephenB
February 22, 2009
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Eric: Well said indeed, I add this from Koukl:
Evil is real . . . That's why people object to it. Therefore, objective moral standards must exist as well [i.e. as that which evil offends and violates] . . . . The first thing we observe about [such] moral rules is that, though they exist, they are not physical because they don't seem to have physical properties. We won't bump into them in the dark. They don't extend into space. They have no weight. They have no chemical characteristics. Instead, they are immaterial things we discover through the process of thought, introspection, and reflection without the aid of our five senses . . . . We have, with a high degree of certainty, stumbled upon something real. Yet it's something that can't be proven empirically or described in terms of natural laws. This teaches us there's more to the world than just the physical universe. If non-physical things--like moral rules--truly exist, then materialism as a world view is false. There seem to be many other things that populate the world, things like propositions, numbers, and the laws of logic. Values like happiness, friendship, and faithfulness are there, too, along with meanings and language. There may even be persons--souls, angels, and other divine beings. Our discovery also tells us some things really exist that science has no access to, even in principle. Some things are not governed by natural laws. Science, therefore, is not the only discipline giving us true information about the world. It follows, then, that naturalism as a world view is also false. Our discovery of moral rules forces us to expand our understanding of the nature of reality and open our minds to the possibility of a host of new things that populate the world in the invisible realm.
I'd love to hear the evolutionary materialist response to this. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 22, 2009
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EricB @108 You have clearly taken some care with this comment and it makes it much easier to read than most. I am a materialist who has no problem with the amorality of my world view and will try to explain. First you seem to jump from “evolution is without purpose” (which I believe to be true) to the conclusion that “human beings act without purpose” (which is obviously not true). Evolution is not itself teleological but it creates organisms that are teleological. However, this is not the complete answer. Cats are also teleological. They act with purpose. But we do not typically blame them for (intentionally) playing with a mouse. Humans are unique in that they are the only species that are susceptible to moral emotions such as pity, loyalty, and justice. But this is nothing to do with a moral higher order or choosing to live above our base instincts. It is simply a fact of our psychological make up which has itself evolved. In fact many other species show some behaviours and drives which are somewhat moral in nature. Most dog owners will tell you that dogs can feel shame and loyalty – but not compassion or a desire for justice! I certainly hold my dog accountable should he pee indoors and he recognises that he has done wrong. The standard response is to object that this makes morality purely a matter of personal preference. To some extent this is true. If a psychopath cannot see why torturing babies is wrong than I cannot logically prove it to him/her – I can only appeal to other things they do find wrong and hope to show an inconsistency in their views. Luckily there are very few psychopaths in the world. The fact is most of us find torturing babies utterly repugnant and will do a lot to prevent others doing it. This subjective view of morality is passionate and firmly grounded in a common core of values among humanity. I could do on and explain my problems with objective views of morality – but hopefully this explains why I am comfortable with the “amorality of my world view”.Mark Frank
February 22, 2009
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Eric B @108. Very Nice!StephenB
February 21, 2009
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I'd like to invite Allen_MacNeill / materialists generally to consider your favorite examples of cruelty in nature. Darwin had his examples, and these appear to have made it difficult for him to consider life as the product of intentional design. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that we are operating on the assumption that the diversity of life is entirely the result of mindless, purposeless, material processes of a Darwinian nature. Concerning those examples of cruelty in nature, whether they be insects starting the next generation in paralyzed hosts or felines playing with prey or whatever, is there any way that one could meaningfully conclude that what those creatures did was morally wrong? Or would it be nonsense to talk that way? If nonsense, then consider that man is, in this view, just another creature of nature, equally the product of those same mindless, purposeless, material processes. What then of anything man has done? If the insect starting their next generation is amoral, what of the rapist? If the feline playing with its prey is amoral, what of gladiator type games for entertainment? When materialists work hard to try to attach to Darwinism a positive contributory role toward a "sacred" cause (e.g. see the original post of this thread), or to try to separate Darwin's predictions, based on his theory, from his preferences (cf. post 29 by Allen_MacNeill), or to heatedly object to any examination of the historical applications that have been made of the Darwinian perspective of the course of nature, it seems to indicate they do not feel comfortable living within the skin of the implications of such a view. It does seem that materialists have trouble with the amorality of their own world view. But that may be my own failure to understand. So I'd like to hear from the materialists. Fair forewarning #1: If your first impulse is that the case of mankind is "different" because he is able to choose to live "above" his base nature or according to a "higher" standard, etc., etc., then obviously that gives away the game. Words such as "above" and "higher" imply the existence of an external moral framework against which choices can be measured and contrasted. Fair forewarning #2: None of this denies that any individual can choose whatever standard they prefer for their own code of conduct, if they want one. (For that matter, they might also decide to choose additional standards to apply to others.) I hope it is plain that canned responses along that line (e.g. post 67) are irrelevant to the questions I am raising. In a Darwinian materialist perspective, is anything truly morally wrong, rather than just being not what someone else wanted or preferred? If so, how so? If not, why do materialists have so much apparent difficulty owning up to the nature and implications of their own world view? Could it be that it is a theoretical suit that simply does not fit in practice?ericB
February 21, 2009
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----Eric, I wrote #102 too hurriedly. The phrase should read..."the only substantive objection [not "objective"] you have posed is to imply that Lewis would not have approved.StephenB
February 21, 2009
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----Mark Frank: "I ignored the objective part because it wasn’t relevant. That someone has killed someone else is objective. That it is wrong to do so is subjective. Those are the two components of the moral law “thou shalt not kill”." Thou Shalt not Kill is not "subjective." It is the conscience that is subjective. The law, "Thou Shalt not Kill," is the OBJECTIVE moral law that the subjective conscience apprehends. The reason that the law is compelling is because is comes from the "outside." If it was subjective, then we could make up morality as we go along, which is precisely what most Darwinists want to do. The name for that is moral relativism.StephenB
February 21, 2009
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StephenB I ignored the objective part because it wasn't relevant. That someone has killed someone else is objective. That it is wrong to do so is subjective. Those are the two components of the moral law "thou shalt not kill".Mark Frank
February 20, 2009
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Eric, ignore the last sentence fragmant at #102.StephenB
February 20, 2009
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—-Mark: “Well that’s the key isn’t it? The phraseology is rather flowery - but basically you are saying that most humans have much the same ideas about what is right and what is wrong. I agree. But it is still - as you say - subjective.” I guess that I had better not leave this to chance. I presented the OBJECTIVE moral law and explained in brief that is also has a SUBJECTIVE component. So, naturally, true to form, Mark defines my comments as references to the subjective and ignores the objective counterpart.StephenB
February 20, 2009
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Eric, with all due respect, and I do mean respect, I think you misunderstand Lewis. I read the Abolition of Man years ago, and I don’t recall the formulation the way you do. My understanding is this: The “is” gives rise to the “ought to,” which in turn gives rise to the “should.” As I recall, the point Lewis was making was that “ought” principles need a source in order to make them credible and compelling. I have done that each time by pointing to God and the natural moral law. My understanding is that the “ought” with no source is not ought at all. There is no more objective source than God and the natural moral law. It is independent of human experience which gives it the strongest claim of all. That is why political freedom is based on it. Indeed, as I recall, I am making an argument similar to what Lewis made, though I can’t be sure. I don’t depend on other philosophers to do my thinking for me. The objective moral law exists, and it has a transcendent source. I think my argument is very strong and, again, with respect, the only substantive objective you have posed is to imply that Lewis would not have approved. It is ironic that I presented the concept of the natural moral law to Mark, both its objective and subjective elements, and, wouldn’t you know it, he ignored the objective part and threw the subjective part back in my face as if it didn’t have an objective counterpart. Again, it seems that Lewis’ argument is this: The more subjective the “ought,” the weaker the “should.” The problem with people who reject objective, transcendent moral values, is that they go from “Is” to “”Should without passing through.” I don’t think Lewis would disapprove of what I am saying, and if you disagree, then please show me why. In any case, Lewis is not infallible, so appealing to his authority will only go so far with me, as much as I do respect him. He has his gig; I have mine. For my part, nothing is more compelling that the natural moral law, the violation of which makes men miserable in the personal realm and makes them slaves in the political arena. I submit further that just as is says in Scripture, God’s handiwork is evident, [is], deniers are without excuse [ought], reasonable mean ought to follow it. [should.] Further, the creator of the universe has every right to make moral demands on his creatures. If you feel differently, then by all means, make your case. Frankly, I think you are pointing.StephenB
February 20, 2009
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----Mark: "Well that’s the key isn’t it? The phraseology is rather flowery - but basically you are saying that most humans have much the same ideas about what is right and what is wrong. I agree. But it is still - as you say - subjective." Now Mark, it isn't nice to take one part out of a two part composite and leave out the outer part.StephenB
February 20, 2009
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At 91, StephenB you seem to be addressing a separate concern, perhaps an epistemological one, since you refer to Hume, Moore, dilemmas and traps. However, you will notice that C.S. Lewis, former atheist turned Christian apologist, affirms what I have been saying. Lewis doesn't consider it to be a problem to be evaded or a trap to avoid. In particular, neither Lewis nor I imply that "ought" cannot be known, if that is what you are concerned about. (Please do read The Abolition of Man and see for yourself.) Regarding your discussion with Mark, you will notice that it is not enough to vaguely establish the existence of morality. You will find that your reasoning is not persuasive to Mark most likely because you will tacitly (or explicitly) rely upon specific claims that he does not observe or affirm, and which do not necessarily follow from what he is willing to accept without support at the present time. In general, I don't think the direction you are heading will help much. Yes, the "ought" that exists is part of reality and therefore, in one sense, part of what "is". However, rather than helping, that tends to obscure what is an important distinction. In this conversation, "is" focuses on the physical reality that science examines, that the materialist acknowledges, and that the "ought" would apply to -- except that for the materialist, there is no possibility (within that framework) of calling anything nature has produced wrong. That inability of the materialist by any means to attach "wrong" to anything nature has done is the issue that most materialists are not willing to fully engage. I expect most materialists don't recognize the full implications of this. Allen_MacNeill, or you up to it?ericB
February 20, 2009
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