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Darwinists Tie Themselves Into Knots Denying the Obvious

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Some Darwinists will say anything to try to draw attention away from the obvious.  The point of my “Scientific Certitude” post was to show that evolutionary theory has been used to support racist views.  Darwin was a firmly committed racist, and he was not shy about expressing his racist views:

 

“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world.  At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated.  The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.”  Charles R. Darwin, The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex, 2nd ed. (1871; reprint, London: John Murray, 1922), 241-42.

 

While Darwin was still alive his contemporaries took his racism/evolution link and ran with it.  For example, Ernst Haeckl, the great popularizer of Darwin’s theories on the continent wrote:

 

“The Caucasian, or Mediterranean man (Homo Mediterraneus), has from time immemorial been placed at the head of all races of men, as the most highly developed and perfect . . . In bodily as well as in mental qualities, no other human species can equal the Mediterranean.  This species alone (with the exception of the Mongolian) has had an actual history; it alone has attained to that degree of civilization which seems to raise man above the rest of nature.”  Ernst Haeckel, The History of Creation: Or The Development of the Earth and its Inhabitants by the Action of Natural Causes. A Popular Exposition of the Doctrine of Evolution in General, and of that of Darwin, Goethe, and Lamarck in Particular, translated by E. Ray Lankester, 6th English ed., First German Publication 1868, (New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1914), 2:321

 

and

 

“If one must draw a sharp boundary between them [i.e., higher mammals and man], it has to be drawn between the most highly developed and civilized man on the one hand, and the rudest savages on the other, and the latter have to be classed with the animals.”  Haeckel, Ibid., Vol. II, 365.

 

Or how about this from Darwin’s friend Huxley:

 

“No rational man, cognizant of the facts, believes that the average negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the white man. And if this be true, it is simply incredible that, when all his disabilities are removed, and our prognathous relative has a fair field and no favour, as well as no oppressor, he will be able to compete successfully with his bigger-brained and smaller-jawed rival, in a contest which is to be carried out by thoughts and not by bites.”  T.H. Huxley, Lectures and Lay Sermons (1871; reprint, London: Everyman’s Library, J.M. Dent, 1926), 115. 

 

The point of my earlier post was that by the turn of the 20th century the link between racism and evolution was so entrenched in orthodox thought that it made it into the Encyclopedia Britannica, which some would say is the very epitome of current conventional learning.

 

The link continued to be made well into the 20th Century:

 

“The new creed [i.e., Christianity] was thus thrown open to all mankind.  Christianity makes no distinction of race or of color; it seeks to break down all racial barriers.  In this respect the hand of Christianity is against that of Nature, for are not the races of mankind the evolutionary harvest which Nature has toiled through long ages to produce?  May we not say, then, that Christianity is anti evolutionary in its aim?”  Arthur Keith, Evolution and Ethics (New York: Van Rees Press, 1947), 72

 

Evolutionists, when they are being honest, admit this link:

 

“We cannot understand much of the history of late 19th and early 20th century anthropology, with its plethora of taxonomic names proposed for nearly every scrap of fossil bone, unless we appreciate its obsession with the identification and ranking of races.  For many schemes of classification sought to tag the various fossils as ancestors of modern races and to use their relative age and apishness as a criterion for racial superiority.”  Stephen Jay Gould, “Human Equality as a Contingent Factor of History,” Natural History (November 1984): 28, 26-32.

 

“Since Darwin’s death, all has not been rosy in the evolutionary garden.  The theories of the Great Bearded One have been hijacked by cranks, politicians, social reformers – and scientists – to support racist and bigoted views.”  M. Brookes, “Ripe Old Age,” review of Of Flies, Mice and Men, by Francois Jacob, New Scientist, January 1999, 41.

 

The Darwinists who responded to my previous post were not honest.  Instead of facing the facts, they tried to deny the undeniable connection between Darwin and racism, or they tried to change the subject by saying, “hey, some people who say they are Christians are racists too.” 

 

This would be amusing if it were not so tragic.  Someone said, “There is none so blind as he who refuses to see.” 

 

This is the bottom line: 

 

(1) It takes only the tiniest step to go from Darwin’s theory to the conclusion that some races are “lower” than others.  Darwin took that step himself; his contemporaries took it with him, and by the turn of the 20th Century it was “conventional wisdom.”  Note to Darwinists:  Them’s the facts; you don’t advance your cause by denying them.

 

(2) Nothing Jesus said gives the slightest credence to racist views.  Therefore, racists who call themselves Christians hold their views in the very teeth of the teachings of the Christ they purport to follow.  So Darwinists.  What is your point?  That some people – even some people who call themselves “Christian” – are stupid or evil or both?  No one denies that.  Sadly for your position, this does notthing to blunt the force of (1) above. 

Comments
I'm pretty sure AmerikanInKananaskis is your typical Darwin cultist troll trying to make I.D. supporters look bad with his over-the-top comments (note the convenient use of three Ks in his/her/its username). Probably one of the "brights" who tagged Intelligent Design with phrases like "turd sandwich" over at Amazon. What a classy group of people! As for the topic at hand, instead of dwelling in the distant past, here's my question: are we seeing the same thing repeated today, only with religion in place of race? Basically the arrogant scientist trying to scientifically justify his alleged superiority of those which he despises? You religious folks simply haven't evolved beyond religion the way that those ultra-sophisticated evolutionary biologists have.* *sarcasmShawnBoy
March 23, 2009
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Do the research for yourself, "Big Science". And yeah, Darwin may have thorught we were one "species", but white people were the "favored race".AmerikanInKananaskis
March 19, 2009
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@ AmerikanInKananaskis I have my copy of "Voyage of the Beagle" at the ready. Let us have the page reference. Darwin did some interesting research into facial expression and demonstrated that human facial expresion was universal among races, showing that humankind are all one species. Damn racist! ;)Arthur Smith
March 19, 2009
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It makes me so angry when evolanders deny that Darwin (and his theory) were racist. In The Voyage of teh Beagle, he talks about killing native inhabitants of 2 or 3 different Islands with a hammer. He even wrote letters to people bragging about it!AmerikanInKananaskis
March 19, 2009
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Another publication that didn't get much attention at UD although it was visible in the side bar is Lönnig's paper on Dolo's law.sparc
March 19, 2009
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Indeed, Dr. Lönnig has published a lot.sparc
March 19, 2009
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On a few observations: 1] Val, 86 [now banned]: Both ID and evolution can be argued both in support and opposition of racist/eugenic arguments and I find it of little value arguing over the source of Hitler’s (or other prominent figure’s) ideological principles in support of one theory or another. First, ID -- as WAC no 1 points out right away, is a scientific theory and research programme about signs of intelligence, not a worldview:
“Intelligent Design is . . . a scientific investigation into how patterns exhibited by finite arrangements of matter can signify intelligence.” Wm A Dembski]
In short, you are comparing oranges and junkyards as if they were equivalent. It is a matter of fact that historically from 1859, Darwin's theory of evolution EXPLICITLY focused on the race as the unit of competition for survival of the fittest, and that in both 1871 and 1874 he made it plain that Negores and Australian aborigines were doomed to extinction in the competition for survival. His intellectual descendants took the race-ball forward, and as I have had to cite, this ended up int eh shock administered by the events of 1939 - 45. Up to that time, racial superiority/ inferiority was taken for granted among the scientifically informed elites as well as those in popular culture shaped by the view,never mind warnings of the ilk of H G Wells in his sci fi novels of the 1890's. Those are historically grounded facts, facts that we had better face frankly, if we are to avert future disasters as bad as the 1939 - 45 one. For, evolutionary materialism remains the dominant view among key elites, and it is undeniably inherently antithetical to any rights-- and equality- based morality. Indeed, the recent thinking on abortion and embryonic stem cell research so called, is chilling in its import. By sharpest contrast, the much despised creationists root their worldview in a book that explicitly grounds the principles of equality, morality and linked rights. Indeed -- though that aspect of the history is too often censored out today -- that view materially contributed to the rise of modern liberty and democracy. (Re-read the 2nd paragraph of the US DOI, in the light of this exhibition by the US Library of Congress on the religious roots of the revolution, and in further light of an online discussion with significant citation of relevant documents here.] It is indee3d possible to be a Biblically based Creationist theist and a racist; but to do that requires the massive wrenching of the import of the very direct teachings of the text. [Cf above my excerpt from Ac 17.] in short, in the biblical Christian context, racism is sin and heresy that is blasphemous as it fails to respect the image of God in ALL peoples. Finite, fallible, fallen, all too often ill-willed men are indeed prone to such, but a major point of the biblical frame is to expose such sin and call us to repentance and reformation. 2] Eli, 87:The operant conditions of natural selection are a fact and there is no debate in biology of its power to change allele frequencies. Yes indeed: NS requires differential FUNCTION to see which of populations is superior, and leads to the dominance of the superior in the population. (Hence its tendency to feed into elitist- oppressive worldviews and movements.) It is not the source of variation, and apart from design we have no credible source of variation capable of generating 600 k bits to 10's or 100's or more of mega bits of innovative functional bio- information on the gamut of our observed cosmos. GEM of TKI PS; Re Sparc: plainly, we see the subtext of contempt showing up. As to Dr Lonnig, it seems his views are a little more nuanced and peer-review publishable that sparc suggests.kairosfocus
March 19, 2009
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Maybe mammoths get warm when they are running. In addition this would explain why they arrived there in less than 6000 years.sparc
March 18, 2009
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They can't both be right. What are the odds of any non-cold adapted mammoth finding its way to Siberia in less than 6000 years?? Ergo, mammoths were adapted to cold.Pendulum
March 18, 2009
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You don’t want us “IDiots” on your forum sparc? But you want us to allow you to be here with us?
I was not refering to ATBC but to the Cologne Spring Meeting. I surely don't want ID-creationists around there. To my best knowledge ID-creationists will not be banninated at ATBC but may just be re-directed to the bathroom wall. Anyway, although I don't want them arround I will not prevent ID-creationists from joining the Cologne Spring Meeting. Indeed, Dr. Lönnig showed up there today and exposed his extravagant world views: After a really cool and convincing presentation on the evolution of the genome of mammoths he stated that "there are web sites stating that mammoths were not adapted to cold" to which the speaker replied that there are also web sites stating that the earth is only 6000 years old.sparc
March 18, 2009
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http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=SP&f=14&t=5735&p=135096 Date: 2009/02/06 11:21:39, Link Author: sparc J-Dog Quote "Someone should send your post and links to the IDiots at UD." sparc--"I don't want them IDiots here." You don't want us "IDiots" on your forum sparc? But you want us to allow you to be here with us?Clive Hayden
March 18, 2009
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If you wish to question the validity of various evolutionary models you are welcome to it, but you need to state specifically which ones. If you are asserting natural selection cannot lead to reproductive isolation, there are perhaps thousands of studies confirming this observation and many are free to read. I have not seen a creationist model which can explain how such things occur without evoking similar language to current evolutionary models. The operant conditions of natural selection are a fact and there is no debate in biology of its power to change allele frequencies. The neo-darwinin synthesis does not aim to explain all "human behavior"--another fallacious argument (I believe it is called moving the goal post). Evolution can only act upon what is biologically inherited. It is used to describe changes in allele frequencies within populations and how they can become reproductively isolated, leading to speciation. Demanding a biologist to explain how evolution caused religion rests upon the premise religion is genetic and not a social construct. If you wish to discuss how evolution explains our intelligence and ability to understand symbols, we can do that. But, if wish for me to use evolution to explain how specific languages emerged I cannot do that. When I say predictive power I refer to using one of the many models and conducting an experiment to test its validity and extrapolating its results to other populations. Example: organism A is provided with selective pressure B and is expected to respond via C. Asking me to predict the future trends of human evolution relies on the premise I have control over the conditions of human existence. I cannot make a prediction because natural selection does not have foresight, it selects for what works now. On the subject of race—it is a human construct. Comparative genomic studies have confirmed there is little differences in “races” other than outward physical appearance much like different breeds of domestic farm animals. Race is sociological and not really a subject for evolution. And to restate it again, racism and eugenics is not advocated in evolutionary theory. You can post quotes from any source you like about the social impact or the philosophical impacts of evolution, but it does not change the fact evolution is a scientific theory and cannot advocate anything (especially the existence or non existence of a god), nor does it change its validity. It is a fallacious and illogical way to refute the validity of the theory, because it is no longer an issue of science, but one of philosophy, sociology, and politics, clearly outside the realm of natural science. I ask again, do the theories of nuclear physics advocate nuclear holocaust? The argument is clearly creationists are concerned about science being used for perverse agendas. If this is the case, perhaps we can shift the discussion to Newtonian physics and how many people were effectively killed by his equations.eligoodwin
March 18, 2009
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I don't know where to begin in giving most of you a good hard slap in the face. Whether Darwin was or was not a racist has no implication to the credibility of evolutionary theory. Both ID and evolution can be argued both in support and opposition of racist/eugenic arguments and I find it of little value arguing over the source of Hitler's (or other prominent figure's) ideological principles in support of one theory or another. Evolution. I could say both white men and black men are descended from a common anscestor making us relatives, like brother and sister, and we stand equal within the world, helping and being nice to our relatives etc. etc. OR - white peoples appear to be more advanced than the black races therefore we should take up a dominance over them. ID. Black and white peoples were created by the same designer making us of the same importance and equals within this world. OR - Black and white peoples were created differently by our designer for a reason, maybe the black races are to live in servitude to the white races, this is what our designer had in mind. There are multitudes of examples of atheists, evolutionists, christians, creationists and other people with different beliefs commiting atrocious acts fuelled by hate. If they can justify their hate with facts and theories they will. This does nothing more than demonstrate mankind's in and out group state of mind, us and them is all it will ever be. Whether that is a product of evolution or ID is what remains to be argued. Is in-group and out-group mentality a product of ID or evolution? I'm sure our benevolent creator put a lot of care into building hatred and racism. -- I only allow this comment as an example of "what not do". Starting a comment with "I want to slap you" is in general a bad idea...needless to say this person is banned. --Adminvalaquesse
March 18, 2009
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Secondly, the article relies on a non sequitur–there is a causal relationship between evolutionary theory and racist ideals
There obviously is. so tell us, are the races equally evolved? how many races are there? Evolutionists from Darwin to Watson have been telling us there ARE differences in the races. Racism is implicit in the theory since the races evolved differently one must be more 'fit' than the others..right? The theory of evolution has consequences which must be faced, and cannot be so easily explained away.
Evolutionary theory states NOTHING about what social policy should be. If it did, it would not be a theory.
again evolution has implications...which provine sums up...
Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent." Provine, William B. [Professor of Biological Sciences, Cornell University], ", "Evolution: Free will and punishment and meaning in life", Abstract of Will Provine's 1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address.
so this is far beyond a theory of mere 'science'. Its a worldview, a theory of everything, and purports to explain all human behavior, and our origins. in other words, its a religion. and the rabid defense of evolution shows that to its adherents its a faith. who would go to court to defend the theory of magnetism from question?
Finally, evolution is presented as the sole explanation for the origin of species, because it is the only model which has any predictive power.
ok then what is the next stage in the 'evolution' of humans? what is the next step in the 'evolution' of the flu virus, and how should we design the vaccine to counter it? so much for predictive power. Even coyne has admitted that evolution doesn't inform us of much, and has limited commercial value...I've quoted enough for this post, you can look it up.tsmith
March 18, 2009
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Vladimir: Let us challenge our evo mat advocate friends to refurte Mr Karl Pearson on their premises. GEM of TKI PS: Mentok, excellent. Let's challenge the evo mat advocates to ground - not assume or assert -- a reasonably trustworthy mind and reasonably objective core morality on evo mat premises.kairosfocus
March 18, 2009
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In case it needs repeating: evolutionary theory says nothing about eugenics or social engineering. That's what you say. It's not what famous Darwinians have said. In Darwinism, Medical Progress and Eugenics Darwin Medalist Karl Pearson wrote:
Let me, even at the risk of talking about the familiar, sketch for you the broad outlines of Darwin's theory of evolutionary progress. The individual better fitted to its environment lived longer than its fellows, had more offspring, and these, inheriting its better fitness, raised the type of the race. The environment against which the individual had to struggle here was not only formed by the other members of its species, not only by its physical surroundings, but by the germs of disease of all types. According to Darwin -- and some of us still believe him to be right -- the ascent of man, physical and mental, was brought about by this survival of the fitter. Now, if you are going lo take Darwinism as your theory of life and apply it to human problems, you must not only believe it to be true, but you must set to, and demonstrate that it actually applies. Darwin's theory means this, that if individuals are reared under a constant environment, and a larger percentage of them are killed off in the first year of life, then a smaller percentage of those remaining will die in the later years of life, because more of the weaklings have been killed off... Now if there be -- and I, for one, think that two independent lines of inquiry demonstrate that there is -- a fairly stringent selection of the weaker individuals by the mortality of infancy and childhood, what will happen, if by increased medical skill and by increased state support and private charity, we enable the weaklings to survive and to propagate their kind? Why, undoubtedly we shall have a weaker race... Surely here is an antinomy -- a fundamental opposition between medical progress and the science of national eugenics, of race efficiency. Gentlemen, I venture to think it is an antinomy, and will remain one until the nation at large recognises as a fundamental doctrine the principle that everyone, being born, has the right to live, but the right to live does not in itself convey the right to everyone to reproduce their kind... Our social instincts, our common humanity enforce upon us the conception that each person born has the right to live, yet this right essentially connotes a suspension of the full intensity of natural selection. Darwinism and medical progress are opposed forces, and we shall gain nothing by screening that fact, or, in opposition to ample evidence, asserting that Darwinism has no application to civilised man... I say that only a very thorough eugenic policy can possibly save our race from the evils which must flow from the antagonism between natural selection and medical progress.
Vladimir Krondan
March 18, 2009
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"Finally, evolution is presented as the sole explanation for the origin of species, because it is the only model which has any predictive power." Talking about non sequiturs. What fallacy is this? It has no predictive power because it cannot explain much of evolution. But yet is taught in schools and is in textbooks. So what is the name of this fallacy.jerry
March 17, 2009
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I am not sure many of you know what logical a fallacy is. The article uses ad hominem to attack the Neo-Darwinian synthesis--Darwin and his ilk were a bunch of dirty racists, therefore evolution is wrong. Evolution stands on its own and should be evaluated free from what the personal beliefs were of those who formed it. The issue is the scientific validity of the theory, which is wholly independent of the characters involved. Many of you are resorting to character assassination suggesting an inability to refute the actual science involved. Secondly, the article relies on a non sequitur--there is a causal relationship between evolutionary theory and racist ideals. Evolutionary theory states NOTHING about what social policy should be. If it did, it would not be a theory. Posters claim evolutionary theory encourages immoral behavior. Does nuclear magnetism encourage men to annihilate one other via nuclear war? It is equally fallacious as the arguments being presented here. It is a theory descriptive of reality--it contains no instructions on how man is to behave, asking it do so is beyond science. Finally, evolution is presented as the sole explanation for the origin of species, because it is the only model which has any predictive power. Creationism does not provide predictive or explanatory power. Are there creationist models for adaptation? No. Are there creationist models for how organisms respond to environmental pressure? No, not without evoking the same mechanisms of "micro evolution" and natural selection which leads back to evolution... There is a difference in discussing the validity of a theory and its social impact. Here, the two are confused. To declare the theory wrong, because certain individuals held disgusting positions is fallacious.eligoodwin
March 17, 2009
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In case it needs repeating: evolutionary theory says nothing about eugenics or social engineering. The socio-politcal perspectives of former and current prominent evolutionary biologists are irrelevant to the validity of the theory. It is a non sequitur. Should we condemn Newton’s contributions towards physics because of his metaphysics? I do not see “materialists” doing such things.
You are very naive if you think that evolutionary theory is being promoted by the evolution lobby as some type of benevolent enlightenment solely because of evolutionary theory's scientific legitimacy. As has been pointed out by countless highly educated people -- evolutionary theory is scientifically vapid, it is without any legitimate scientific support. So then the question arises -- why is evolution so dogmatically and forcefully promoted as being the only viable and true explanation about the origin of species? And, where and what can the promotion of that paradigm lead people and or society towards? These are legitimate questions that are part of the ID movement's conversation with the public. Richard Dawkins recently made headlines with his atheist bus advertising campaign in the U.K. The slogan "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" served what purpose? Clearly, Dawkins or whatever amateur psychologist came up with tha slogan, believed that they could make a psychological connection in people's psyches that would have them meld the concept of "worry" -- with belief in God, and the concept of "enjoying life" -- with not believing in God. Basically they are trying to brainwash people into becoming or staying atheists. This is from one of the leaders of the evolution lobby, in fact the leading public face of the evolution lobby. So here in a very open and unequivocal way the question as to what motivates the evolution lobby is very succinctly revealed -- they want to brainwash people into atheism. What is interesting about this revealing episode is that the method -- psychological manipulation -- that Dawkins and crew have used to promote atheism, is the same method the evolution lobby uses to promote evolution and denigrate ID -- psychological manipulation. In both cases there is an objective that is sought -- convincing the public that a certain belief is modern, true and beneficial, and that another belief is anachronistic, false, and harmful. In both cases the ends justify the means to the evolution lobby. We know this because they refuse to stay within the boundaries of any ethical or moral code or guidelines while propagating their missions. In both cases psychological manipulation is seen as not only acceptable, but essential to winning over the hearts and minds of the public. While rational debate is seen as pointless since they are not interested in examining the good or bad within their own beliefs, they are only interested in convincing others that their beliefs are the only rational, sane, acceptable, intelligent beliefs -- and that any other contradictory beliefs are irrational, insane, unacceptable and foolish. Let's examine the slogan "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life". One of the major implication of belief in God is the conception that there is some omnipotent omnipresent intelligence that -- like Santa Claus -- knows if you've been naughty or nice because he sees you when you're sleeping and when you're awake -- so you better be good for goodness sake! That is ingrained into the psyche of those who have firm belief in an omnipresent omnipotent God. What happens to people when they don't "worry" about God, as Dawkins suggests we should, but instead believe that there isn't an omnipresent omnipotent intelligence who is monitoring our lives? What happens if there is no police force in a community? People believe they can get away with crime. That slogan would have been more accurate if it looked like this "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life -- From I Did it My Way, by Joseph Stalin" But people like Dawkins aren't concerned about the social implications of their quest, they have tunnel vision, they don't care whether they are right or wrong because they are right no matter what. The truth is that belief in God is more likely to make someone happier than disbelief. This is because if you firmly believe that your life will end, forever, when your body dies, that is inherently going to cause you to view life through the eyes of a person on death row. Whereas a person who believes that his life will go on forever after the death of the body, that person will inherently view life through the eyes of a god-like being. The profoundly morally and ethically challenged, like Dawkins and his ilk, foolishly believe that atheism will free people from the oppressive bondage of various aspects of the teachings of various religions, and therefore people and society in general will be better off for it. It's the worst case of 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' imaginable. Belief in God not only acts as a moral and ethical restrain on people and society -- for the better -- it also brings existential relief from the dread of eternal death, which all atheists experience -- consciously or subconsciously -- whether they realize it or not. History has proven that evolutionary theory gave "scientific" legitimacy to the abandonment of morality in pursuit of a "science" agenda -- racist imperialism, eugenics and Social Darwinism. Evolutionary theory was used by immoral dictatorial governments in support of their agenda to oppress populations in pursuit of their own power and wealth. Communist countries outlaw religions because they want allegiance to the laws of the state over that to God's laws. Other states force evolution to be taught for the same reason -- they need an alternate reality to teach people about the origins of the world and life. Evolutionary theory is used to fill that gap. The validity of evolutionary theory would ultimately be of minor consequence if the people promoting it weren't so feverishly devoted to forcing on everyone the belief that evolution is sacrosanct absolute truth, and that to disbelieve in evolution is a sign of feeble-mindedness or insanity. But unlike other scientific theories, evolution is seen as a tool of psychological manipulation by people with specific passionate social agendas. For people like Dawkins who fear the abuse of religious teachings, it is a tool to convince people to be atheists. For people who support some type of eugenics in support of their exploitation, it is a valuable tool, because if God exists then we tend to see all races and ethnicities as brothers and sisters, instead of masters and slaves. So, it's always the evolutionists who don't want to bring up anything about the consequences and abuse of evolutionary theory, they claim evolutionary theory should be judged solely on it's merit as a scientific theory. But the average person who believes in evolution doesn't know that he has been manipulated into believing that it has concrete scientific validity. They don't know that the people pushing evolution on society and fighting against anything else, have social agendas, they are not the knights in shining armor defending the hapless public from the dragon of outdated dangerous ideas about God, as they portray themselves. In reality they are either pushing evolution because they make a living from it, or they are they have a social agenda to promote. Those are the people behind the evolution lobby. Of course they don't want evolution connected in any way to Nazis, or racism, or eugenics, they have an agenda to promote evolution as purely beneficial to society as an absolutely necessary science, when in reality their sole purpose is to foment atheism.mentok
March 17, 2009
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You guys should read Measures for Race Betterment by Samuel J. Holments. Holmes was a president of the American Eugenics Society and a fellow of the AAAS. Darwin Medalist Henry Fairfield Osborn (horse evolution, president of the AAAS) wrote the preface to Passing of the Great Race by Madison Grant. This book, and Rising Tide of Color Against White World Supremacy are the Mein Kampfs of american nazism.Vladimir Krondan
March 17, 2009
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Sigh: I really wanted to sit this one out. Since Mr MacNeil has seen fit to raise herr Schicklegruber's rationale as an issue [adn to thereby tar Bible-believing Christians by direct extension of the context of "creartionist"], it is reasonable on rebuttal to provide a certain degree of balance by citing from Bk 1 Ch XI of his infamous first book. I apologise for citing such painful rubbish, but it is necessary, for too many are unable to see how by 1925 or so, the implicaitons of Origin's subtilte were being understood. That sub-title, again, from 1859, is: >>On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life>> Plainly, the envisioned unit of population competing for SURVIVAL of the fittest -- thus not mere displacement but elimination of the less fit [as CRD states in the cited excerpt from Ch 6 of Descent, as an aside on the subject of why the missing links are missing] -- is the race. Now, with deep pain to have to put such up to underscore a point, herr Schicklegruber: __________________ >> Any crossing of two beings not at exactly the same level produces a medium between the level of the two parents . . . Consequently, it will later succumb in the struggle against the higher level. Such mating is contrary to the will of Nature for a higher breeding of all life . . . The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he after all is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development of organic living beings would be unthinkable. The consequence of this racial purity, universally valid in Nature, is not only the sharp outward delimitation of the various races, but their uniform character in themselves. The fox is always a fox, the goose a goose, the tiger a tiger, etc., and the difference can lie at most in the varying measure of force, strength, intelligence, dexterity, endurance, etc., of the individual specimens. But you will never find a fox who in his inner attitude might, for example, show humanitarian tendencies toward geese, as similarly there is no cat with a friendly inclination toward mice [or a pure-blood "Aryan" Nazi superman with sympathy to "lesser" breeds: Jews and Poles etc, doubtless . . . ] . . . . In the struggle for daily bread all those who are weak and sickly or less determined succumb, while the struggle of the males for the female grants the right or opportunity to propagate only to the healthiest. [That is, Darwinian sexual selection.] And struggle is always a means for improving a species’ health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause of its higher development. If the process were different, all further and higher development would cease and the opposite would occur. For, since the inferior always predominates numerically over the best [NB: this is a theme in Darwin's discussion of the Irish, the Scots and the English in Descent, cf chs 5 - 7], if both had the same possibility of preserving life and propagating, the inferior would multiply so much more rapidly that in the end the best would inevitably be driven into the background, unless a correction of this state of affairs were undertaken. Nature does just this by subjecting the weaker part to such severe living conditions that by them alone the number is limited, and by not permitting the remainder to increase promiscuously, but making a new and ruthless choice according to strength and health . . . >> To wash such filth away, let us immediately contrast the Apostle Paul, to the Athenians on Mars Hill, in AD 50, from Acts 17: >> 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' >> ____________________ Sorry folks, there are some truths we HAVE to face, if we are to learn form them and perhaps avert the sort of future Mr Darwin projected in Ch 6 of Descent, and repeated verbatim in the second edn, i.e. AFTER he privately wrote to another party on the recognition of the import of his findings on the intellectual capacity of us Negroes. Mr MacNeill, please, please, PLEASE, I NEVER want to see the "Hitler was a creationist" canard from you or any other commenter at UD again. But, the real issue at root is not racism, it is that evolutionary materialism per its worldview level axioms and dynamics, logically undermines mind and morality and THUS removes key civilisational barriers to oppressive and abusive dominance of strong over weak. Just what civilisation is designed to block. So, it is survival of our civilisation as something worth having that is what is in the end at stake. And, the Darwinists are plainly severely challenged to show a solid ground for an ethics of justice and protection of the weak and vulnerable among us. A challenge that over many months of observing it raised, I have yet to see a serious and solid answer to. 9the much despised creationists will simply quote the US DOI, 2nd paragraph: all of us are created equal and are endowed with unalienable rights, which it is the purpose of Govt to protect. ALL of that can be easily warranted on the biblical, indeed Creationist, frame. [Which makes racist etc oppression: SIN.]) Again, forgive me for having to broach such a painful reminder. but -- for the survival of our civilisation -- we MUST face it together. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
March 17, 2009
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I meant to point out that ID's criticism of natural selection is solely scientific, and does not delve into the above issues. However, ID supporters often stray into other evidential areas apart from hard science, which is also true of supporters of Darwinism.CannuckianYankee
March 17, 2009
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B L Harville, "IDists on this site often say that they believe in evolution but disagree about the mechanisms of evolution. If this is true, then don’t the claims of evolution being inherently racist also apply to ID?" Well, no; because the part of Darwin's theory that ID theorists reject is natural selection's supposed influence on descent - precisely the part that leads to racist ideas. I look at it this way: natural selection implies cetain stages of development. I sense that Darwin thought that there were intermediary examples of common descent present among contemporary humans, and that they were exemplified in the various races; a position from which most modern-day Darwinists have distanced themselves. What IDists agree with concerning evolution is micro-evolution because we find clear evidence for it. We don't find clear evidence for the intermediary evolutionary stages (contemporary ones) that Darwin thought existed. IDists are not racist in that they reject those intermediary stages based on the lack of evidence. If the evidence was there, I don't think it could then be called "racism." Racism is based in a value judgment concerning the intellectual, moral and physical abilities of the various races. In Darwin's day the white race in Europe did in fact have a superiority complex, and Darwin naturally was a part of that social dynamic. But we have history to show that he was wrong. I don't think anyone here is blaming Darwin for his racism. It was a part of a social dynamic that started long before his own time. However, Darwin's views on natural selection falsely implied a white race superiority, an opinion formed out of Darwin's social biases, and not out of anything scientific. Darwin simply used natural selection as a way of justifying the bias in quasi-scientific terms. I agree with many of the atheist posters here that Darwin's views on race were more than that. He viewed other races as just as legitimate as his own, with the same rights and privileges. However, those views were inconsistent with the implications of natural selection as he put forth. One can be forgiven for being inconsistent. But when the implications of natural selection as Darwin understood them have a negative impact socially - as in the holocaust and eugenics, we'd be blind not to point that out. And we'd be blind not to also point out that modern Darwinists are being inconsistent with the implications of natural selection specifically as it pertains to human evolution. Now someone here attempted to point out that the writer of John was an anti-semite. Not only that, but that it is a proven fact. Well I should point out that the writer of John was probably a Jew himself, so I find that assertion hard to fathom. Furthermore, Jesus himself - a Jew said many negative things against the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem in other gospels. For example: Luke 11:39-43,13:34-35, Matthew 23:1-5. Is this then evidence that Jesus himself was anti-semitic, or that the writers of those other gospels were? Therefore, I would like to see the "proof" that the writer of John's gospel was an anti-semite, or that John's gospel gave impetus to anti-semitism in the west. Perhaps it's true that it did in fact give impetus to it. But if so, it would be beside the point. We know by the evidence that the writer of John's gospel did not hold anti-semitic views, and therefore any contribution his writing may have had on the development of anti-semitism in the West would be attributed to poor exegesis of his writings, combined with an already existant anti-semitism, for which there is historical evidence. I mean, look at the Romans, for heaven's sake. They weren't Christians. In fact, since there is already good evidence that John was the last of the gospels to be written. The author was merely expounding upon the sayings of Jesus aginst the Jewish leadership specifically, that were present in the synoptics. Christianity is far from being anti-semitic. Do Christians agree with the Jewish teachings? Somewhat, yes, but with one great exception, and that is that we believe Jesus is the promised Messiah - the Son of God. As such, Jesus was certainly in his right to criticise the Jewish leadership, and he did so precisely because they misrepresented the Father, and lorded over the Jewish people as a whole. Hence, Jesus was a liberator, and the gospel of John illuminates this fact even better than the synoptics. Now to tie this into our discussion of racism and Darwinism, I think there is a clear contrast. The teachings of Jesus and the Apostles were never anti-semitic, nor racist. It is clear in fact in John's gospel that salvation is open to "the world" through simple belief (John 3:16). There is no distinction between Jew and gentile here. Darwin, however, did make distinctions between races, justifying such distinctions based on natural selection. This is the point that most IDists here are attempting to point out in several days of posting and comment on the subject. I don't think it could be made more explicit. Is this then scientific evidence that Darwinism is false? Perhaps not. But who among us is of the opinion that scientific evidence is the only evidence that exists? History is not scientific, but it holds evidence. There are other areas of inquiry which produce truthful results, such as forensics (which is based in combinations of scientific as well as an accumulation of other circumstantial evidences). The racist implications of Darwinism fit well with a forensic type of evidence against the notion of natural selection's supposed impact on descent. It also fits well with an historical type of evidence. We often know that ideas are false based on the inconsistencies prevalent in formation by their authors. Darwin's inconsistencies regarding natural selection and race is a clear red flag waving in the direction of falsehood. But that should not be considered the only or complete evidence leading to a rejection of natural selection.CannuckianYankee
March 17, 2009
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You may be intersted in what protestant pasors were thinking about Hitler in 1931... How many protestant pastors in America have little problem with Margaret Sanger's Planned Parenthood? Those who do not run with the Herd are more interesting. After all, why don't they run with it when it's natural to do so? For example:
...the German Lutherans have given Herr Hitler his first jolt. In the face of growing opposition to his efforts to crush religious beliefs into a Nazi form the Chancellor has now decided that the results of his efforts to "nazify" religious faith in the Reich represents simply a church dispute in which the State leaders of the country should not try to take a part. The effort to reshape religion in Germany is being undertaken by the German Christians, who belong to the Lutheran Church, but who are all Nazis. Their head is Bishop Mueller. The German Christians, in turn, are divided into extremists and moderates. The extremists would do away with the Old Testament, revise the New Testament. They wish to make a Nordic church... They would look upon Jesus Christ not as a holy figure but as an historical figure. In the long run, they would force all Germans, except Jews, into a German National Church, based not on Christianity but the consecration of the virtues represented by the Nazi political faith. (Hitler Given First Jolt by Protestant Pastors: Refusal of 4,000 Lutheran Clergymen to be Nationalized Brings Nazi Regime Significant Check By Edwin L. James The New York Times; Dec. 3, 1933 pg. E1)
Note Allen MacNeill's specious claims and distortions as well:
“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people.” - Adolf Hitler, Speech, April 26, 1933.
The most charitable reading of Allen's claims is that he's not capable of discerning the difference between what is said by politicians in speeches and what actually happens. Are we to conclude that Hitler began to educate all students in creationism and so on? At any rate, Hitler's private words and public deeds corresponded no matter what he said in political speeches:
Hitler stopped and looked me in the eyes,‘Christianity is, for the moment, one of the points in the programme I have laid down. But we must look ahead. Rosenberg is a forerunner, a prophet. His theories are the expression of the German soul.’ (Hitler and I by Otto Strasser (Boston, Houghton Mifflin Company, 1940) :96)
His testimony about Hitler's sentiments comports with what happened historically:
....the Nazi regime intended eventually to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal Germanic gods and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists. As Bormann, one of the men closest to Hitler, said publicly in 1941, “National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable.” What the Hitler government envisioned for Germany was clearly set out in a thirty-point program for the “National Reich Church” drawn up during the war by Rosenberg, an outspoken pagan, who among his other offices held that of “the Fuehrer’s Delegate for the Entire Intellectual and Philosophical Education and Instruction forthe National Socialist Party.” A few of its thirty articles convey the essentials: 1. The National Reich Church of Germany categorically claims the exclusive right and the exclusive power to control all churches within the borders of the Reich: it declares these to be national churches of the German Reich. 5. The National Church is determined to exterminate irrevocably the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800. 7. The National Church has no scribes, pastors, chaplains or priests, but National Reich orators are to speak in them. 13. The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany. 14. The National Church declares that to it, and therefore to the German nation, it has been decided that the Fuehrer’s Mein Kampi is the greatest of all documents. It . . . not only contains the greatest but it embodies the purest and truest ethics for the present and future life of our nation. 18. The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of saints. 19. On the altars there must be nothing but Mein Kampi (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword. 30. On the day of its foundation, the Christian Cross must be removed from all churches, cathedrals and chapels . . . and it must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika. (The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany William L. Shirer (Simon and Schuster) 1990 :238-40)
Unfortunately there may not be that much difference between "naturalism" and the emergence of nature based paganism in the end. But even if that's not the case it's ridiculous to try to portray the Nazis or Hitler as "creationists" as Allen MacNeill does above. If anyone had little use for the Jews and their creation story (i.e. creationism) it was the Nazis.mynym
March 16, 2009
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Excellent posts, mnym.Charlie
March 16, 2009
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In case it needs repeating: evolutionary theory says nothing about eugenics or social engineering. Does evolutionary theory explain man? Does it explain intelligence, language, religion and ethics? If it does not, then why do so many seem to have a problem admitting that intelligent agency exists and may have an impact on biology? For example, if the "theory of evolution" (Are you sure there's only one?) does not explain man's intelligence, language and religion at this time then how far back does this failure extend? Why shouldn't students be informed of this failure and the possible role of intelligence and language in biology? (After all, they were indoctrinated in eugenics only a short time ago.) Should we condemn Newton’s contributions towards physics because of his metaphysics? If Newton had the Darwinian urge to merge he would have claimed that his metaphysics could be merged with his physics. He did not because his metaphysical views were grounded in the notion that reality has an ordered structure that can be described mathematically thanks to a divine Architect. This was the matrix in which his physics emerged. He did not separate his metaphysics from his physics, he married them:
Newton ridiculed the idea that the world could be explained in impersonal, mechanical terms. Above all, having discovered the elegant lawfulness of things, Newton believed that he had, once and for all, demonstrated the certainty that behind all existence there is an intelligent, aware, omnipotent God. Any other assumption is ‘inconsistent with my system.’ (For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch Hunts and the End of Slavery by Rodney Stark :168)
Could someone clarify (perhaps Barry Arrington?) how the abuse of evolutionary theory... You can't "abuse" or pervert the hypothetical goo that gives rise to "evolution." It comports with all observations and all specifications. To the extent that Darwinian theory has been specified it describes racism and genocide as a brute fact of life. There are no metaphysics, it is all merely natural and physical. ...(or science in general) detracts from its validity or explanatory and predictive powers? What does the theory of evolution predict about man's application of eugenics or racism? Nothing? If there are wide swaths of human behavior that fall outside of "evolutionary theory" (whatever you may mean by that) then why do so many seem to have such trouble admitting that?mynym
March 16, 2009
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It should also be mentioned the Neo Darwinian Synthesis makes no claims as to what “should be”–it lends no support to eugenics, genocide, infanticide, euthanasia, etc and presenting such arguments is disingenuous. This is the same type of reasoning which allowed Darwin to lament the inevitable extermination of the lower races while predicting it as a scientific fact. Of course he lent little support to such things personally, he just described them as a scientific fact of nature based on his type of pseudo-science. Darwin promoted the ridiculous idea that his hypotheses were little different than physical theories. Given that, the inevitable extermination of lower races predicted by his theory of natural selection was no different than objects falling to the ground as a result of gravity. Theory (capital T) is only descriptive of what ‘is’ and of the ‘how.’ Only man determines the ‘what.’ Except when someone is ignorant enough to propose a theory of man and other animals which supposedly totally reduces them to blind, unintelligent, inanimate processes. According to Darwin, whatever it is you think you mean by "what" has its roots in natural selection operating on the reproductive and excretory organs of a group of ancient ape-like creatures. You say that man determines "what," whatever you may mean by that but Darwin believed he had a knowledge as to what determines man himself. In fact, many Darwinists are ignorant and stupid enough to keep repeating the same type of charlatanism that Darwin engaged in. How is it that so many argue that Darwinism is a "universal acid" that eats away all traditional values but then when someone points to the historical fact that it really did all the effete Darwinists claim that it actually has nothing to do with anything based on refined abstractions? It's a historical fact that it did undermine traditional values, just as the hard men* of Darwinism have always openly admitted. In contrast the "soft men" of Darwinism generally just turn it back into mush whenever they dislike its predictions. *As the philosopher David Stove called them.mynym
March 16, 2009
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In case it needs repeating: evolutionary theory says nothing about eugenics or social engineering. The socio-politcal perspectives of former and current prominent evolutionary biologists are irrelevant to the validity of the theory. It is a non sequitur. Should we condemn Newton's contributions towards physics because of his metaphysics? I do not see "materialists" doing such things. Could someone clarify (perhaps Barry Arrington?) how the abuse of evolutionary theory (or science in general) detracts from its validity or explanatory and predictive powers?eligoodwin
March 16, 2009
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Allen you wrote:
They also pointed out that prominent evolutionary biologists were among the members of the UNESCO panel that issued the United Nations’ 1950 statement on eugenics and race, which condemned both in the strongest of terms, and that virtually no evolutionary biologist has actively supported eugenics since 1945.
Um, UNESCO's first leader was the president of the eugenics society -- Julian Huxley. After WWII the eugenics establishment publicly repudiated eugenics but privately continued on under different organizations with the same agenda, e.g. creating the population and birth control movement, which was also aligned with the environmental movement, in order to deprive third world resource rich countries, especially Africa, of economic development, stability, and aid -- following the Malthusian ideology which is part of the basis of eugenics, along with Social Darwinism.
Political unification in some sort of world government will be required... Even though... any radical eugenic policy will be for many years politically and psychologically impossible, it will be important for UNESCO to see that the eugenic problem is examined with the greatest care, and that the public mind is informed of the issues at stake so that much that now is unthinkable may at least become thinkable. - Sir Julian Huxley, UNESCO: Its Purpose and Its Philosophy. One America burdens the earth much more than twenty Bangladeshes. This is a terrible thing to say in order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it’s just as bad not to say it. - Jacques Cousteau, UNESCO Courier The only hope for the world is to make sure there is not another United States. We can’t let other countries have the same number of cars, the amount of industrialization, we have in the US. We have to stop these Third World countries right where they are. - Michael Oppenheimer, Environmental Defense Fund If I were reincarnated, I would wish to be returned to Earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels. — Prince Phillip, World Wildlife Fund The battle to feed humanity is over. In the 1970s, the world will undergo famines. Hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. Population control is the only answer. —Paul Ehrlich, in The Population Bomb (1968)
See http://www.toolan.com/hitler/sameold.htmlmentok
March 16, 2009
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It should also be mentioned the Neo Darwinian Synthesis makes no claims as to what "should be"--it lends no support to eugenics, genocide, infanticide, euthanasia, etc and presenting such arguments is disingenuous. Theory (capital T) is only descriptive of what 'is' and of the 'how.' Only man determines the 'what.'eligoodwin
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