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Christopher’s Challenge

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Christopher Hitchens is nothing if not a straight-shooter. He calls it like he sees it, and not even a vicious attack could stop him from denouncing evil, racist ideologies that are still with us today. He is also a fearless and formidable debater. In recent years, he has declared himself an anti-theist, a term he defines as follows:

You could be an atheist and wish that the belief was true. You could; I know some people who do. An antitheist, a term I’m trying to get into circulation, is someone who’s very relieved that there’s no evidence for this proposition.

On Bastille Day in 2007, in response to an article entitled What Atheists Can’t Answer by op-ed columnist Michael Gerson in The Washington Post, Christopher Hitchens threw down the gauntlet to theists:

Here is my challenge. Let Gerson name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any reader of this column think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith? The second question is easy to answer, is it not? The first – I have been asking it for some time – awaits a convincing reply. By what right, then, do the faithful assume this irritating mantle of righteousness? They have as much to apologize for as to explain.

Hitchens has repeated this challenge on numerous occasions since then. The first time I heard him issue this challenge, I thought: “He has a point.” Going through the Ten Commandments (a natural starting point for someone raised in the Judeo-Christian tradition), it seemed to me that the only ones that a nonbeliever couldn’t keep were the ones relating to the worship of God. But Christopher Hitchens might reasonably object that if religious belief only makes believers more ethical in the way they relate to God, then it has no practical moral value. Surely, if God exists, then the belief that God is real should also infuse a deeper meaning into our interactions with other people. For the belief that God is real is meant to transform the way in which we think about and act towards others. In that case, there should be ethical actions directed at other human beings that a believer can perform, and that a nonbeliever cannot.

Christopher Hitchens has been criticized before for failing to provide a secular justification for his moral beliefs, and for waffling on the subject of free will. I will not rehash those criticisms here. Instead I will throw the floor open, and invite submissions from readers in answer to the following question:

Can you name an ethical action directed at other human beings, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?

To help readers along, I’ll make my question more focused. Let’s call it “Christopher’s Challenge”:

Can you name an ethical action directed at Christopher Hitchens, that a believer could perform, and that a nonbeliever could not?

I’m deeply ashamed to say that it took me two whole weeks to think of the answer to this question, and then I kicked myself hard for not having thought of it sooner. But I confidently predict that someone reading this post will come up with the answer within 24 hours.

Answers, anyone?

Update on Professor Feser’s response to my post

(By the way, I would like to thank Professor Edward Feser for his lengthy and detailed reply to my post, and I would like to add that I deeply respect his passion for truth. Professor Feser and I have a somewhat different understanding of Thomist metaphysics and how it should be interpreted in the 21st century, and I would also disagree with his bold claim that even if scientists one day managed to synthesize a life-form from scratch in a lab, that life-form would not be an artifact. But in the meantime, I would like to draw readers’ attention to a remark Professor Feser made in his post, “Intelligent Design” theory and mechanism, on 10 April 2010:

Perhaps the biological world God creates works according to Darwinian principles; and perhaps not.

Those were incautious words, and I believe they betray a profound misunderstanding of what Aquinas wrote on the Creation. In a forthcoming post, I will demonstrate that Aquinas would never have accepted the Darwinian account of how evolution is supposed to work, even if he had known then what we know now. I will also show that according to Aquinas, certain life-forms cannot be generated from non-living matter by any kind of natural process, even in a universe sustained by God, and rife with final causes. Stay tuned!)

Comments
#312 Phaedros Can a materialist come to the conclusion that, as Dr. William Craig says, a human has more value than all of the universe itself on purely its own terms? It is unlikely but there may be a materialist somewhere who places such a high value on human beings. There is no inherent contradiction. Can a materialist/unbeliever talk about the inner cosmos of a human being? Again there may one somewhere but it is unlikely. This seems to me to be greatly to the advantage of the materialist/unbeliever who has avoided such mumbo-jumbo. Can an materialist/unbeliever conclude that people should be treated as ends and not means on its own terms? Easily. I believe this. Although Kant was a Christian his ethics were not based on religion and he came to exactly this conclusion.Mark Frank
May 3, 2010
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above #310 . Something tells me though that you and I have a completely different approach to objectivity. This made me smile. These metaethics debates always end up trying to define what we mean by "objective". See that Seversky is having almost the same dispute with Clive. So let's get a bit more down to earth and return to the hypothetical case of Stalin in court. Sure we can find him guilty either using my approach of "the vast majority of humanity find your actions horrific" or your approach of "God wrote the rules and you broke them". The hypothetical judge could use either approach. And in either case Stalin could say - you may have convicted me according to your code but I am right according to my moral code. I have a different question? How do you convince him he should have acted differently?Mark Frank
May 2, 2010
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Phaedros very well put. Reminds me of this line from O Holy Night and this song from Sara Groves: "'Til He appear'd And the soul felt its worth." Sara Groves Ultimate Gift Track http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcqFZV8UJMsbornagain77
May 2, 2010
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Can a materialist come to the conclusion that, as Dr. William Craig says, a human has more value than all of the universe itself on purely its own terms? Can a materialist/unbeliever talk about the inner cosmos of a human being? Can an materialist/unbeliever conclude that people should be treated as ends and not means on its own terms?Phaedros
May 2, 2010
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Above: Ultimate Worth of a human to God?,,, The cross endured, an infinite ransom of love paid for redemption,, priceless eternity bought!!! The ultimate worth of a human to a materialist?... less than one dollar! "The U.S. Bureau of Chemistry and Soils has calculated the chemical and mineral composition of the human body, which breaks down as follows: 65% Oxygen 18% Carbon 10% Hydrogen 3% Nitrogen 1.5% Calcium 1% Phosphorous 0.35% Potassium 0.25% Sulfur 0.15% Sodium 0.15% Chlorine 0.05% Magnesium 0.0004% Iron 0.00004% Iodine Additionally, it was discovered that our bodies contain trace quantities of fluorine, silicon, manganese, zinc, copper, aluminum, and arsenic. Together, all of the above amounts to less than one dollar!"bornagain77
May 2, 2010
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@Mark “cannot divorce” …. [shortened to save space]. I dispute that – as the rules can be based on aspects of human nature such as compassion.” Yes, they would fail. There is no doubt about that. You simply want to take one aspect of human nature (if there really is such a thing and it’s not merely a term is used instrumentally) and then you try to “objectify” it in order to try and justify your morality. It’s the same issue I mentioned earlier about the legal system. You cannot escape it. (The use of compassion in this context is also questionable). It is an intriguing aspect of metaethics debate that while the participants disagree wildly as to what ethical statements mean – they usually agree on how people should behave in specific situations.” But again, that points to an underlying objectivity in ethics then. Surely an imperfect one, as we are imperfect beings ourselves. And we are back to the legal system and its necessity again. Something tells me though that you and I have a completely different approach to objectivity. “Is a theist better equipped to deal with Stalin? How could a theist demonstrate to him that his behaviour was wrong? It is no good invoking God. As an atheist I could try appealing to whatever compassion he had. I could point out that people are dying and suffering. If he thinks that is irrelevant then to that extent he is inhuman.” I don’t see the logic in your objection. I’m sorry. It’s also not about demonstrating anything to stalin. It’s about the foundation of ethics, and whether said foundation evidently refutes itself as in the case of moral relativism. What a Theistic reality provides is normative order that is ontologically real with the opposite being true for atheism. Now let’s assume we’re in a court of law and stalin is defending himself. The crime is murder of millions. Under moral relativism he can argue that since it’s not an evil act according to his relativistic standards he did nothing wrong. He will simply claim, that his nature is such that he was compelled to follow his hate, anger desire for power etc. So where does that leave our judge? With his hands tied behind his back. What is he to do? Impose his own relativistic morals on stalin? That won’t do given moral relativism. stalin can simply say, “you have your morals, I have mine” and go on his way. In a Theistic world however, stalin will never be able to fabricate such argumentation because ethics is not merely a matter of human personal preference. Neither will the argument be taken into account simply because moral relativism is considered false and repugnant. I think Dostoyevsky crystallized the fatal flaw of moral relativism in his famous quote “everything is permitted”. “See above in many places seeking consensus does not imply an objective foundation for that consensus. I cannot understand why you just ignore the counterexamples that I offer. We might seek a consensus on which is our favourite colour!” And that favourite colour will evidently be the representative colour for the entire group, thus objectifying it. One colour for many people, is significantly different than many colours for many people. I don’t think the colour example is a good one for this discussion though. “This is the most interesting question about morality for me. Some aspects of human nature are moral. Others are not. How do we characterize the moral ones? They are those aspects that are directed to accepting pain or discomfort personally for the benefit of others.” But again Mark, you see, that definition is also arbitrary and even worse, can be used to justify all sorts of atrocities. A person can go to war, kill others and die in order to benefit his countrymen. Is that ethically sound? Of course not. To say otherwise would be an attempt to rationalize war. That is the root of nationalism. That is the source of some 200 million deaths in the 20th century. “This objection is so deep that I cannot fathom it! Materialism explains all the features of mankind that I recognise as human” This I fundamentally disagree with and it’s one of several reasons why I reject materialism. But we can agree to disagree I suppose. The point is as a said before, if mankind is a random by-product of purposeless processes then he is no different, existentially speaking, than any other random collocation of atoms. Hence why materialism dehumanizes mankind. It’s a harsh reality, but that’s what it entails. The quote I provided in a previous post from peter atkins is testament to this materialistic outlook.above
May 2, 2010
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Seversky,
Mathematics is the formal language we have created to describe and model those properties.
Show me the physical representation of zero, or the square root of two. Besides, you're avoiding my question of why mathematics isn't objective (by your definition of objectivity) since it doesn't exist physically. Surely you don't mean that mathematics is subjective since it isn't physical?Clive Hayden
May 2, 2010
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Clive Hayden @ 304
Your understanding of “objective” is nonsensical. Math is objective, it doesn’t have to physically exist in order to be objective. Same with morality. Surely your definition of objectivity is not physicality, right?
In my view, that is a poor analogy. We observe that we can group objects in the external world into groups of two, for example. We observe we can put two groups of two together and create a single group of four. We can then separate that group of four into two groups of two again, and so on. Those relationships are objective properties of the natural world. They hold, regardless of the objects being grouped or the observer doing the grouping. Mathematics is the formal language we have created to describe and model those properties. The symbols employed by the language are subjective and arbitrary. For example, the quantity of three can be represented variously by '3' or 'III' or '11' or '51' or '0011 0011'. And the use of the numeral '3' to represent the quantity three is arbitrary. There is no reason other than convention why we could not use '5' or '7' if we chose. Morality does not deal with properties or relationships of objective reality in that way. It deals primarily with the way human beings behave towards one another. Nor it is a descriptive language like mathematics but rather a set of prescriptive statements or guidelines or injunctions which are based in how people think they ought to behave for a variety of reason. The various religions of the world include moral codes amongst their beliefs and their followers usually hold that their particular codes take precedence over all others. This will be disputed by the followers of other faiths. Non-believers will regard all that as an unwarranted attempt to preempt morality for themselves.Seversky
May 2, 2010
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tgpeeler @ 301
BTW are you ever going to respond to my last post on the “Does ID presuppose a mechanistic view of nature” thread? I changed my argument a little just for you so I’m kind of interested in your response.
My apologies. I forgot to check that thread until now. I will comment in the next day or two.Seversky
April 30, 2010
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---Mark Frank: "Is a theist better equipped to deal with Stalin?" Yes, a theist can argue on behalf of an objective and universal moral law that binds everyone, including him. ----How could a theist demonstrate to him that his behaviour was wrong?" Privately, he already knew his behavior is wrong. He just didn't care. Of course, in that context, he was like all materialists, atheists, and moral relativists: he publicly disavowed that which he privately knew to be true. Thus, like all moral relativists, he would have been impervious to reason's arguments, having already rejected reason itself. ---"It is no good invoking God. As an atheist I could try appealing to whatever compassion he had." Even if he was open to reasoned arguments, You could not convince him that compassion is worthwhile because, in your worldview, the moral law that demands compassion is not binding for all people at all times in all places. As a moral relativist, he could simply say, "that's fine for you, but I have a different morality." ---"I could point out that people are dying and suffering. If he thinks that is irrelevant then to that extent he is inhuman." What you mean is that you "feel" that he is inhuman. You can't really say that he "is" inhuman because you reject the objective moral standard by which a person's humanity may be judged.StephenB
April 30, 2010
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#296 above But that is precisely the point I am trying to make. You cannot unwarrantedly divorce objectivity from ethics. That is the nature of ethics. “cannot divorce” is vague. It may well be true that as a matter of psychology and sociology societies need to agree objective rules for ethical behaviour. But that is different from the logical question as to whether there is an objective justification for those rules – which after all vary from one society to another. You have so far presented no evidence for such a justification – all you have done is assert that such a justification must exist or the rules would fail. I dispute that – as the rules can be based on aspects of human nature such as compassion. Now you seem to be arguing there is an underlying objective, albeit imperfect, moral sense pervading humanity. And I do agree to some extend. You can’t have it both ways though. I am saying there is a common moral sense pervading humanity. It is no more objective than the common human liking for sweet foods. Mark, I hope you don’t misunderstand me here. I’m not saying that you as an atheist are an immoral person or cannot act morally. Don’t worry I understand. It is an intriguing aspect of metaethics debate that while the participants disagree wildly as to what ethical statements mean – they usually agree on how people should behave in specific situations. What I am saying is that moral relativism is inept in dealing with such atrocities. If the culprit (e.g. stalin) is a moral relativist too then his opinion under that system of belief is just as valid as anyone else’s including yours. Is a theist better equipped to deal with Stalin? How could a theist demonstrate to him that his behaviour was wrong? It is no good invoking God. As an atheist I could try appealing to whatever compassion he had. I could point out that people are dying and suffering. If he thinks that is irrelevant then to that extent he is inhuman. To speak of consensus goes back once again to the attempt of moral objectification I mentioned earlier. The paramount need for objective standards and a law. See above in many places seeking consensus does not imply an objective foundation for that consensus. I cannot understand why you just ignore the counterexamples that I offer. We might seek a consensus on which is our favourite colour! But hate, anger, murder, xenophobia, intolerance, even rape (allegedly) is part also part of ”human nature”. If that’s your definition of humane, then murder is no more inhuman than empathy… they are both human characteristics. This is the most interesting question about morality for me. Some aspects of human nature are moral. Others are not. How do we characterize the moral ones? They are those aspects that are directed to accepting pain or discomfort personally for the benefit of others. But it may be fruitless to seek a precise definition – see Wittgenstein on family resemblances. My objection however is a deeper one and still have not seem a valid reason as to why materialism does not dehumanize mankind. This objection is so deep that I cannot fathom it! Materialism explains all the features of mankind that I recognise as human.Mark Frank
April 30, 2010
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Seversky,
This is why I argue that the very notion of objective morality is incoherent. Based on my understanding of “objective” it is nonsensical.
Your understanding of "objective" is nonsensical. Math is objective, it doesn't have to physically exist in order to be objective. Same with morality. Surely your definition of objectivity is not physicality, right?Clive Hayden
April 30, 2010
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You are right. I assume that it would be rational. Big mistake. :-)tgpeeler
April 29, 2010
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Good comment, TGP. I would hate to debate Hitchens. His eye-rolling, arm-crossing, extemporaneous ranting fillibusters devour the clock, play to the faithful, and leave dozens of fallacies to be unpacked with every passing minute. It would be a nightmare for me.Charlie
April 29, 2010
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I see that Seversky (288) is still utterly confused about ethics and Christianity. I don't believe I've ever seen so many irrelevant and contradictory claims in one place. BTW are you ever going to respond to my last post on the "Does ID presuppose a mechanistic view of nature" thread? I changed my argument a little just for you so I'm kind of interested in your response.tgpeeler
April 29, 2010
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I'm late to the dance as usual but this is interesting and still active so I'll throw my two cents in. "Here is my challenge. Let Gerson name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever." Hitchens may be a lot of things but a serious thinker is not one of them. The real question that needs to be asked and answered is this: Is Jesus Christ who He claimed to be (John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the light, no man comes to the Father except through me.) or not? These are reasonable questions and the answer to one of them is true and to the other, false. He either IS or he IS NOT. The law of non-contradiction applies to opposing (not different) truth claims so it is perfectly reasonable to pose this question. If He is then there are serious consequences for ignoring Him and in light of the truth of His claim, Hitchen's question is irrelevant. So what if he is the most ethical person who ever lived? That's not good enough. Being ethical is NOT THE WAY. If Jesus was not who he claimed to be then he wasn't and we can safely ignore him. In that light, maybe Hitchens has an interesting question but it wouldn't be relevant to Christianity since if the claim of Jesus is false then Christianity fails. See 1 Corinthians 15. What I have taken far too long to say is this: Hitchens' first challenge, for Christians, is simply irrelevant with one exception. That exception is the ethical (by definition if we say that being obedient to God is an ethical act) act of believing the gospel. An unbeliever could not commit that ethical act (believe) and remain an unbeliever. It's a matter of logic, with which Hitchens only has a passing acquaintance. How anybody takes this guy seriously is beyond me. I'd love to debate him.tgpeeler
April 29, 2010
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Christopher Hitchens’ vicious attacks on Mother Theresa are unethical—dishonest, tendentious, slanderous, self-aggrandizing. It would seem, then, that self-restraint is one ethical action recommended to Christians that he, self-appointed exemplar of atheism, is incapable of exhibiting.allanius
April 29, 2010
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---Charles: "If you know of something like that, could you kindly post a link(s) to it/them, for my later study and edification, please?" OK. I guess that's fair. [Lifted from Catholic/Scripture.com--edited, in part, by me]. Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - 1 Cor. 3:15 Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others. Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. [Not get saved at a moment in time] Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works). Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats [works done during our life] Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." Our eternal destiny is tied up with our works. Mark 10:21 - Jesus likens the giving to the poor as building up treasure in heaven. Luke 12:43-48 - We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know. Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation. Luke 23:41 - I have already written about the good thief's works. Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace. 2 Cor. 5:10 - at the last judgment, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had. 2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul likens sowing and weaping in connection with God’s judgment. 2 Cor. 11:15 - our final end will be determined by our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation. Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life). Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord. Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy. 1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life. 2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds. Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven. Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith. 1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives. Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior. Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments. Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance. Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works. Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved." Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved. Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works. Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works. Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.” Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.” Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds.StephenB
April 29, 2010
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StephenB:
and yes, I could provide numerous passages to support my position, but I promised to wind down [actually, I said I would stop] so I will.
I'm not asking to continue. If you have links, kindly post them, that will be the end of it. If you don't know of any, just say so, that too will be the end of it, without prejudice. I'm just looking for background that supports your assertion if by chance it already exists (I assume Catholic apologists have already addresed your viewpoint, approximately if not exactly, and you would be the better judge of that) without continuing here.Charles
April 29, 2010
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@Mark “I fully accept that we need an objective law i.e. a legal system and that one reason for that is that morality is subjective. But I thought you were talking about the nature of morality itself – not the need for a legal system.” But that is precisely the point I am trying to make. You cannot unwarrantedly divorce objectivity from ethics. That is the nature of ethics. “The majority of humans have much the same basic morals – so these are the basis of ethical standards which continue despite the fact there is no other basis for them.” Now you seem to be arguing there is an underlying objective, albeit imperfect, moral sense pervading humanity. And I do agree to some extend. You can’t have it both ways though. “Stalin was all powerful in his country so there wasn’t anything much that anyone who disagreed could do about it. There is plenty I can say about it – I just have – I think it is deeply wrong to murder people and imprison without trial. His practices are not justified. They conflict with what most people would hold to be right” Mark, I hope you don’t misunderstand me here. I’m not saying that you as an atheist are an immoral person or cannot act morally. What I am saying is that moral relativism is inept in dealing with such atrocities. If the culprit (e.g. stalin) is a moral relativist too then his opinion under that system of belief is just as valid as anyone else’s including yours. To speak of consensus goes back once again to the attempt of moral objectification I mentioned earlier. The paramount need for objective standards and a law. “I agree that man is a product of natural causes. I hold that it is part of the nature of our human species to have compassion, duty, etc. Where is the contradiction?” But hate, anger, murder, xenophobia, intolerance, even rape (allegedly) is part also part of ”human nature”. If that’s your definition of humane, then murder is no more inhuman than empathy… they are both human characteristics. My objection however is a deeper one and still have not seem a valid reason as to why materialism does not dehumanize mankind.above
April 29, 2010
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Charles, you have been a good sport. Yes, my position is the Catholic position, and yes, I could provide numerous passages to support my position, but I promised to wind down [actually, I said I would stop] so I will. Everyone agrees that we are "saved by faith," for which there are, as you suggest, a couple of dozen references. There are only a handful of passages, however, that could, by the wildest stretch of the imagination, be interpreted to meaning that we are saved by "faith alone." Further, no one, least of all an informed Catholic, believes that we are "saved by works." Works apart from faith in Christ are of no avail whatsoever. [The heresy of pelagianism] That is a perennial strawman and when anyone uses that language, it is clear that they have not sufficiently considered those two words again, "necessary" and "sufficient." To say that we are saved by faith is not to say that faith is sufficient. To say that works are necessary is not to say that works are sufficient. Here is an analogy: If someone wants to save his eartly life, he must eat solid food and breathe clean air. If he doesn't eat, he will die; if he does eat, he will live. If he is starving, he will be saved by the food. Does that mean, therefore, that he doesn't need air? Similarly, If oxygen is removed from his environment, he will start to die. If he is given air, he will live. Does that mean he doesn't need food? [That, by the way, is what the Bible means when it teaches that faith brings us eternal life. It is distinguishing between belief and not belief (oxygen vs. no oxygen), not between faith and works (oxygen vs. food)]. Which is more important? Food or oxygen. While both are necessary, oxygen is the more urgent concern because without it, one cannot live long enough to eat. Which is more important, faith or works? Obviously, faith matters most because without it one cannot perform one good work.StephenB
April 29, 2010
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@seversky The first part of your post was sheer question begging. You seem to define something as “objective” if and only if it adheres to your materialistic beliefs. I’m not buying that, sorry. You spend so much time going on about it but all you practically did was repeat the debunked mantra of the materialist. I could even go on a tangent and explain how your approach would even undermine science as a human endeavor, which presupposes ethical standards as well, but that is beside the point. The fact of the matter is that what you presented is both incoherent and irrelevant to the question of ethical standards. Also, the problem is both insurmountable and insoluble for the atheist as I said and you have offered no logical response to it. Saying or wishing they (Nazis, Stalin etc) will not last long is simply evasive. But then again, that’s all you can do as a relativist. That is precisely my point. The case becomes even worse for you if said inhuman actions helped the group to survive/thrive. How do you condemn that given the neo-darwinist dogma? Not all the biology in the world will get you out of that problem. "Atheists simply recognize and accept humanity for what it is, warts and all. They have no need for fanciful notions about being the center-piece of creation to make them feel good” Yes, I have heard atheist views on humanity such as those of peter atkins, who claims that mankind is “just a bit of slime on a planet”. The same man also claims that science shows us that there can be no moral distinction between the administering of poison and one that the body generates itself. Such is the predicament of the materialist. You failed to explain why your beliefs do not dehumanize mankind and how in light of that you may speak of inhuman acts and condemn any action directed at the detriment of human life. It seems that you refuse engage with any of my objections to moral relativism.above
April 29, 2010
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StephenB:
The question is whether or not we are saved by faith ALONE. In keeping with that point, I could fill several pages with Biblical quotes [I am not exaggerating] to support my position that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. On the other hand, there are only about a handful of passages that can be interpreted the other way, which is why I am more than familiar with them.
You seem to be espousing the Catholic viewpoint, with which I have some familiarity. But I'm willing to consider arguments I've not yet seen. By my count (having now checked again my own 'bible study' on this issue) the unique passages (about 28) which attest to salvation by faith, versus passages (about 13) seemingly attesting to salvation by faith plus some kind of work, are about 2 to 1, with a couple passages identifying disqualifiers for eternal life (one being Mat 7:21-23). So I'm perplexed by your assertion there being only a handful that can be interpreted in opposition to your view. By my study the ratio is reversed (perhaps that's an error or a matter of semantics). But rather than further hijack this thread, I'm hoping that somewhere out there in the internet is an apologetic which reflects the "several pages with Biblical quotes to support my position" with refutations of the "handful of passages that can be interpreted the other way". If you know of something like that, could you kindly post a link(s) to it/them, for my later study and edification, please?Charles
April 29, 2010
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I should like to expand my statement of I love God and others because it is effectively good, apparently good, and intrinsically good. Effectively good relates to the utility of some act (i.e. it works). The effect itself is not subjective but rather objective. I can see it and so can others. Now the judgment of that act is certainly subjective, but judgment is not that act itself, but rather an event that occurs in someones brain. Apparently good is subjective and psychological. This is based on a person's perception. If I perform and act that has utility (effectively good) and a person comes along and observes it and says "that's good" that would be apparently good. My relationship with God allows for me to do things that are intrinsically good. It is tied to obedience to His will and desire for my life. When I act according to this then it is intrinsically good. The only intrinsically good act that a unbeliever can do is to consider the gift of a relationship with God. All other acts of goodness would fall into either apparently good or effectively good. One other problem with discussing the nature of ethics in terms of good is that the English Language sucks for these type of discussions. I have talked about three facets of goodness. In the bible alone there are 8 words in Greek and 11 words in Hebrew that translate to English as good. Stated another way: "Good" in English is an oversimplification of a concept that is multifaceted and we could not fill blogs in our life time understanding it's depths. Unless you just limit yourself to effectively or apparently good. Both of which fall apart as a foundation for ethics (in my opinion). ~BJolsonbj
April 29, 2010
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#281 above “Not at all… etc” You say not at all and then demonstrate the exact thing I was telling you. It is precisely due to the fact that one cannot live with moral subjectivity that we need objective law, hence the legal system. I don’t know how to explain this any simpler. I fully accept that we need an objective law i.e. a legal system and that one reason for that is that morality is subjective. But I thought you were talking about the nature of morality itself - not the need for a legal system. You may need an objective way of deciding which TV programme to watch – but it doesn’t make one’s preference for a particular programme objective. “would be (subjectively) appalled and try to change that group’s views” But that is precisely the problem. The moment you concede moral relativism is the moment you undermine ethical standards in their entirety. The majority of humans have much the same basic morals – so these are the basis of ethical standards which continue despite the fact there is no other basis for them. Stalin and his supporters may just as well say, you got your morals we got ours and there is nothing you can say or do about it. And the sad thing is, they are absolutely justified to hold that view given moral relativism. Stalin was all powerful in his country so there wasn’t anything much that anyone who disagreed could do about it. There is plenty I can say about it – I just have – I think it is deeply wrong to murder people and imprison without trial. His practices are not justified. They conflict with what most people would hold to be right. Olson’s response covers the notion of good in terms of it being apparent, effective and its intrinsic worth. To persist asking why, why, why is akin to trying to impose some infinite regression. I am not imposing an infinite regression. I am simply pointing it out. I asked “why do good”. To reply because “X is good” where X is anything you choose clearly does not answer the question. One last thing, I still haven’t seen a response to one of the fatal flaws of atheism/materialism that I mentioned earlier. Here it is one more time: I use the term inhuman because I believe in man’s central role in the creation. Why do you hold that view? According to the atheist/materialist doctrine, mankind is the random by-product of “nature”. In other words, Atheism/materialism in effect, dehumanizes mankind I agree that man is a product of natural causes. I hold that it is part of the nature of our human species to have compassion, duty, etc. Where is the contradiction?Mark Frank
April 28, 2010
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House Street Room, thank you for your comments. I certainly agree that the idea of quotas makes no sense at all. After this last comment, will say no more. In Matthew, Mark, Luke, and James, a questioner asks Jesus the very same question we have been discussing: "What must I do to gain eternal life?" Jesus answers very clearly that we must keep the commandments, lists them, and includes the most important one of loving neighbor as self. Is that all there is to it? No, not at all. Other places he indicates that one must “believe and be baptized?” Is that all there is to it? No. Other places, he states that we must have a relationship with him. That is the point. None of these single sets of passages are meant to cover all the elements of salvation, which include, faith [vitally important because nothing else happens without it], baptism [turning around and entering into a new life of the spirit], a relationship [without him we can do nothing (or be saved)], and works [we must keep the commandments and perform good works]. None of these elements can be left out. Why? Because the savior explicitly made the point that all four are absolutely necessary. Does God ever make any exceptions? I have no doubt that he does, but it is not my place to say how and when. God is not, after all, bound by his own laws. I am persuaded, for example, that if someone has never heard of Jesus Christ or never had the opportunity to be baptized, that person can, nevertheless, be saved, because I don't think God would hold anyone accountable for those things over which he/she has no control. In such cases, I think God will do the baptizing and judge the person on the extent to which he follows the light which he has been given. At the moment, however, we are speaking of the norm. Once we are baptized and believe, we must enter into a relationship with the savior. That means we must pray daily to acquire the wisdom and strength to keep the commandments, which is an impossible task without his help. Anyone who does not pray does not have a relationship with God, cannot keep his commandments, and, most important, cannot love in the spirit of truth. [“They will say, Lord, Lord, but I will say, “I never knew you”].StephenB
April 28, 2010
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"Christians have no patent on morality so atheists are free to draw on whatever sources are available. Besides, at least atheists try to work out a viable morality for themselves. The justification for their morality doesn’t reduce to ‘because God said so" Severski: You are correct, Christianity has no patent on morality, however morality is historically a religious concept with roots in metaphysical or philosophical tenants or doctrines. This is generally a belief in a higher metaphysical power or order. Naturalism when taken to its final logical conclusion can view morality as nothing more than an individuals subjective perception and something that does not exist objectively. There is no goal post when trying to define morality, since it is always determined in human experience by a democratic or majority consensus. The next question is, whose consensus? Hitlers Germany, Stalin's Russia, The Taliban, the Mujaheddin, early American slave traders, or The Aztecs? How do we quantify morality and who should be the judge?THEMAYAN
April 28, 2010
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above @ 262
1. It is evident that while you do acknowledge that your standards are subjective, you nevertheless seek out a phenomenally objective standard that is facilitated by what you call common agreement. That in it and of itself shows the necessity for objective standards. Simply put, the need for law (objective standard) is inescapable.
Before we go any further I think there is a need to clarify what I mean by "objective". For me, it refers to anything that exists independently outside the subjective mind, that continues to exist whether or not it is being thought about by an intelligent agent such as ourselves. If some catastrophe wiped the human race from the face of this planet but left everything else untouched, what is objective is what aliens would find if they visited Earth some time later. They would find the artefacts like the buildings, the machines, all the technology. What they would not find lying around the place is our morality or ethics. That would have disappeared along with us because it has existence only in our minds. Sure, the aliens might find books about morality but they are just means of describing and recording our thoughts on the matter. They are not morality itself. This is why I argue that the very notion of objective morality is incoherent. Based on my understanding of "objective" it is nonsensical. Even a God-given morality is just the product of another mind, albeit that of God. It has no existence if God does not think about it. If we look at morality as a scientist might, just studying what we can observe of it without making any assumptions about its origins, then what we see are sets of guidelines or rules which serve to regulate the behavior of human beings towards each other. What I see operating in human societies is what I would call a collective morality based on the interests and needs that are common to all human beings. And, in my view, that consensus is a better and firmer grounding for any morality than edicts handed down from on high on tablets of stone, either physically or metaphorically.
2. What happens when the consensus of a country/group establishes standards that are inhuman? The moral relativist is in no position to address that. That is the other unsolved and insurmountable problem of atheism.
The problem is neither insurmountable nor insoluble,in fact, it's not much of a problem at all. How many human societies can you think of which voluntarily imposed inhuman standards on themselves? What happens more often is that one group of humans decides, for whatever reasons, be they religious or political, that they are justified in treating other groups of humans or the rest of humanity badly. If they gain control of a society, as we have seen in the cases of Nazi Germany or Communist Russia, they can do a lot of harm. Eventually, however, they are either overthrown or become acceptable by moderating their stance. Either way they do not last long. above @ 281
I use the term inhuman because I believe in man’s central role in the creation. Why do you hold that view? According to the atheist/materialist doctrine, mankind is the random by-product of “nature”. In other words, Atheism/materialism in effect, dehumanizes mankind
Nonsense. Atheists simply recognize and accept humanity for what it is, warts and all. They have no need for fanciful notions about being the center-piece of creation to make them feel good.Seversky
April 28, 2010
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---Charles: "However, incorrectly exegeting or explicating scripture is always a bad strategy." Yes, that is exactly what the fuss is all about. What exactly constitutes good exegesis? It all gets down to those infernal words that keep cropping up in these kinds discussions, "necessary" and "sufficient." We all know that we are "saved by faith." The question is whether or not we are saved by faith ALONE. In keeping with that point, I could fill several pages with Biblical quotes [I am not exaggerating] to support my position that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. On the other hand, there are only about a handful of passages that can be interpreted the other way, which is why I am more than familiar with them. If it was another kind of forum, I would explain why those passages must be understood in the proper context in order to be properly interpreted. As it stands, though, I think it would be unnecessarily contentious to continue along those lines. I remained silent when the point was raised the first time, because it is basically a sectarian issue and potentially divisive. When happened a second time, though, it seemed unwise to simply let the matter sit without at least pointing out that all of Christianity held my view for sixteen hundred years, that over a billion Christians still do, and that there are plenty of Scriptural passages to confirm it.StephenB
April 28, 2010
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StephenB: I have erroneously transposed two cites. They should read as follows: That is not the kind of physical “act” of kindness towards the less fortunate at issue in Mat 7 25. The acts of Mat 25 7 are irrelevant in comparison to the criminal on the cross because he didn’t do any of those acts either,Charles
April 28, 2010
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