Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Child Rape in a Materialist World

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Here are the facts concerning the Roman Polanski case:  Polanski gave a Quaalude to a 13 year-old child; instructed her to get naked and enter a Jacuzzi; refused to take her home when she asked; performed oral sex on her as she asked him to stop; raped her (no, not the “statutory” kind, the “forcible” kind); and sodomized her.  In a plea bargain Polanski pled to unlawful sex with a minor.

As is common knowledge, Polanski has his defenders because he has made some terrific movies.  For example, critic Tom Shales says:  “There is, apparently, more to this crime than it would seem, and it may sound like a hollow defense, but in Hollywood I am not sure a 13-year-old is really a 13-year-old.”

Here’s today’s question:  “Is it wrong in all times and at all places (even Hollywood) for a 44 year-old man to drug, rape and sodomize a 13 year-old girl?”

For our materialist friends who answer “yes” to the question (as I hope you will), I have a follow-up question:  “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 UPDATE:

At first the materialists dodged my second (and much more important) question.  But then a brave soul who calls himself “camanintx” took up for the materialists the gauntlet I had thrown down, and we had the following exchange:

 

Barry:  How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?”

 

camanintx:  Because the society in which I and Polanski (at the time) live in define it as such. Had Polanski lived in 6th century Arabia, he probably would have been treated differently, no?

 

Barry:   Let’s assume for the sake of argument that drugging, raping and sodomizing a young girl was considered moral behavior in Arabia between the years 501 and 600 AD [I by no means concede that, but will accept it arguendo].  On the basis of your response, camanintx, I assume you would say that the fact that it was considered moral behavior in the society in which it occurred, is in fact determinative of the morality of the behavior, and therefore if Polanski had done what he did in that place and time it would have been moral. Is that what you are saying?

 camanintx:  Since morality is a subjective term, yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 Thank you, camanintx, for that enlightening exchange.  Nietzsche would have been very proud of you for not flinching away from the nihilistic conclusions compelled by your premises.  You have truly gone “beyond good and evil.”  Roman Polanski was not immoral, must unlucky.  Cruel fate dictated that by the merest whim of fickle chance he happened to live in a society that, for whatever reason, condemns drugging, raping and sodomizing young girls.  If he had lived in a different society, what he did would not have been wrong.  Fortunately for the rest of us, your views remain in the minority (at least for now), and for that reason moral progress remains possible. 

 I invite our readers to evaluate camanintx’s views in light of our own very recent history in this country.  I grew up in the 1960’s in a state of the old Confederacy, and as I was growing up I heard about the condition of black people in earlier times.  Even as late as 1955, it was taken for granted in the southern United States that black people are inferior to white people and therefore have no claim to equal rights under the law.  They were turned away from the polls, made to sit in the back of public busses, and segregated into inferior schools, among a host of other indignities too numerous to catalogue here.  Now, the majority of the people in the South at the time considered this state of affairs to be altogether moral. 

 Think about that.  Under camanintx’s view the “is” of a society defines the “ought” of that society.  I assume camanintx is not a racist and that he personally believes that the conditions under which black people were forced to live in say, 1955 Alabama, were intolerable.  But if he had lived in Alabama in 1955 on what grounds could he have pressed for a change to the status quo?  He would have been in a quandary, because his premises compel him to affirm – as he did in response to my query – that the present state of affairs for a society DEFINES morality in that society. 

 Therefore, according to camanintx, if he had lived in Alabama in 1955, his logic would have compelled him to affirm that racial hatred and intolerance is fine and dandy, morally speaking.  The only thing he could have said is, “While I cannot say racial hatred and intolerance is in any sense “immoral,” I personally do not prefer it, and therefore we should change our laws and behavior to eliminate those blights on our land.”  To which, the all-too-easy response from a southern racist would have been:  “I prefer the status quo, and who is to say that your personal preference is better than mine.”  At this point camanintx would have been struck silent, because there is no answer to the southern racist’s rejoinder. 

 Which brings us back full circle to Roman Polanski.  Has anyone considered the irony of the materialists’ defense of Polanski’s actions?  Both of Polanski’s parents were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps.  His mother died at Auschwitz.  Never let us forget that the Nazis came to power in a fair election, and the people of Germany never revolted against their polices.  The “final solution” was perfectly lawful in the sense that it did not violate the internal laws of the nation in which it occurred.  Therefore, camanintx’s logic compels the conclusion that the “is” of the final solution defined the “ought” of the matter, and Polanski’s mother’s death at the hands of the Nazis was in no sense “immoral.”  The irony is that Polanski’s defenders are bringing to bear the same moral relativism that led to the death of Polanski’s mother.

 Sadly, I believe we are losing this battle.  Views like camanintx’s would have been almost literally unthinkable 30 or even 20 years ago.  Now they are commonplace.  How long before they are the majority?  The other day I saw a bumper sticker:  “So many Christians, so few lions.”  I am afraid; for myself, yes, but even more so for my children and grandchildren, whom, I fear, will grow up in a society where every last vestige of the Judeo-Christian ethic will have been jettisoned from our institutions.  That bumper sticker was unthinkable 30 years ago.  What will be “thinkable” 30 years hence that is unthinkable now?  We are going to find out, aren’t we?

Comments
So your question for materialists is “How can you know that you are right and Polanski’s defenders are wrong?” You seem to imagine that this sort of question is more difficult for materialists than it is for anyone else. It's not. Materialists have all sorts of different views on moral theory. But at least they attempt to tackle the problem. How do NON-MATERIALISTS know that they are right and that Polanski's defenders are wrong? Attributing objective morality to a supernatural being amounts to identifying some supervisory authority - it tells us nothing about morality, about what makes good, good and evil, evil. You're back at square one.citizen ghost
October 19, 2009
October
10
Oct
19
19
2009
07:12 PM
7
07
12
PM
PDT
delmot,
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Your willingness to believe and to use this argument yourself shows exactly where you're coming from. You don't believe because you simply don't want to, and any excuse, no matter how utterly vacuous, will be sufficient for you. Extraordinary claims do not require extraordinary evidence at all. Nope, not even a teeny tiny bit! They require the same evidence as anything else that seeks credibility: Credible evidence—that's all. But, I'm sure that fact will not deter you from sticking your head in the sand… again.Brent
October 16, 2009
October
10
Oct
16
16
2009
04:31 AM
4
04
31
AM
PDT
EricB, It is not hard to understand the question of whether the natural universe is an isolated system. It isn’t a “big ask” to consider that it may not be isolated, especially since there are no other isolated systems. It can't be turtles all the way down. Scientists were quite content to suppose (pre Big Bang theory) that the material universe was eternal. It seems that this is OK, only provided we are not talking about God. Selective exclusion. Eternal != beyond time. (fwiw I don't believe in an eternal universe.) People ask questions about God as well. And then people like you refuse to answer them. Christianity either stands or completely falls depending on whether Jesus rose from the dead. So what is your evidence for that? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Brent: "Which is it? Is causality observed or isn’t it?" I think I was pretty clear on this. "Not even a teeny tiny bit fantastic?" Ok maybe a little fantastic. No more fantastic than your claim though. Bascially when it comes to ultimate origins we are all in the realm of fantasy. suckerspawn: peer reviewed! LOLdelmot
October 16, 2009
October
10
Oct
16
16
2009
02:22 AM
2
02
22
AM
PDT
Cross-thread summary, Something can come from nothing. The inanimate something is complexity and life just waiting for the sun to shine on it. It is foolish to even consider peer-reviewed, eye-witness accounts written by some guys a few thousand years ago.suckerspawn
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
07:23 AM
7
07
23
AM
PDT
delmot,
“‘Nothing can come from nothing’ is not ‘the most foundational law of nature’, it is a hypothesis. Causality is not an observed phenomenon, rather it is surmised from observation of events.
1.) The hypothesis hasn't been contradicted once since… forever. 2.) Which is it? Is causality observed or isn't it? You can try to slice this hair as many times as you like, but the conclusion will never be different. It is observed that everything has a cause, without exception. I cannot put a finer point on it for you.
“And we have only observed events for a fractional period of time over limited scales in a tiny slice of a vast and ancient universe.”
3.) If you are so secure in your position, why do you have to make excuses for why we haven't (dang it) gotten a (darn it) glimpse of this (shoot) something that comes from nothing?
“There is really nothing fantastic in supposing that maybe, just maybe, such a seemingly fundamental ‘law’ might not apply for such things as the beginning of the universe and time itself.”
4.)Really? Not even a teeny tiny bit fantastic? You mean to tell me that you are willing to follow this “logic” into the darkness where, not only do we have no observed evidence to support it, but we have vast observable evidence that directly contradicts it? Great is thy faith.
“Even assuming for the sake of charity that ‘transcendence’ argument is valid, it does not take you as far as you would like. A transcendent phenomenon is all it argues for – not a god, not a personality of any kind. Indeed it is curious that to justify your belief in Christ you have to jump from arguments in logic and physics to a book written by some guys a few thousand or so years ago.”
This is nothing but good old-fashioned hand waving. Read what I wrote again, and if you have a cogent argument against it, then please make it. This simply will not do.Brent
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
06:59 AM
6
06
59
AM
PDT
delmot, “a transcedent phenomenon, beyond space, beyond time" -- It is not hard to understand the question of whether the natural universe is an isolated system. It isn't a "big ask" to consider that it may not be isolated, especially since there are no other isolated systems. "beyond causality, beyond justification," -- Scientists were quite content to suppose (pre Big Bang theory) that the material universe was eternal. It seems that this is OK, only provided we are not talking about God. Selective exclusion. "beyond any further questions” -- Hyperbole. People ask questions about God as well. To Brent, you wrote: "Indeed it is curious that to justify your belief in Christ you have to jump from arguments in logic and physics to a book written by some guys a few thousand or so years ago." -- What at all is curious about considering the testimony of contemporary observers regarding the pivotal events of history? Christianity either stands or completely falls depending on whether Jesus rose from the dead. How would it be curious to include consideration of the evidence of what the people who were there said? Do you think it more reasonable to decide such a question while excluding what they said?ericB
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
05:02 AM
5
05
02
AM
PDT
I mean really it comes down to "something from nothing" vs "a transcedent phenomenon, beyond space, beyond time, beyond causality, beyond justification, beyond any further questions". The latter seems like a pretty big ask to me, ontologically speaking, and just as unsatisfactory as the former in terms of shutting down further enquiry.delmot
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
04:19 AM
4
04
19
AM
PDT
Brent, "Nothing can come from nothing" is not "the most foundational law of nature", it is a hypothesis. Causality is not an observed phenomenon, rather it is surmised from observation of events. And we have only observed events for a fractional period of time over limited scales in a tiny slice of a vast and ancient universe. There is really nothing fantastic in supposing that maybe, just maybe, such a seemingly fundamental "law" might not apply for such things as the beginning of the universe and time itself. Even assuming for the sake of charity that "transcendence" argument is valid, it does not take you as far as you would like. A transcendent phenomenon is all it argues for - not a god, not a personality of any kind. Indeed it is curious that to justify your belief in Christ you have to jump from arguments in logic and physics to a book written by some guys a few thousand or so years ago.delmot
October 15, 2009
October
10
Oct
15
15
2009
03:53 AM
3
03
53
AM
PDT
delmot, Sorry for the slow reply.
“We both agree, I presume, that questioning has to stop somewhere, one can’t just keep asking “why?”.”
Yes, the questioning should stop somewhere, but it must stop somewhere that is logical and foundational to what we are trying to understand if it is to have any meaning.
“I just prefer to stop one step before you.”
Preference has no standing when seeking answers. What one prefers has nothing to do with what the truth is. If we run a race and you lead me by 50 meters from, basically, start to finish, but you prefer to stop an inch short of the finish line while I prefer to stop an inch past it, who wins? Likewise, when seeking truth you must actually go all the way to the finish line or you have gained nothing at all.
“I don’t think a creator is necessary, and just what we have stands in no further need of explanation.”
That, however, goes against the most foundational law of nature—nothing comes from nothing. Something comes from something. We have never, ever, observed something coming from nothing—not once, ever, since we have existed. This is the reason we even bother to look for answers or even question anything at all. If things were observed to come from nothing at all then it would be futile to question anything. But, things always come from something, and to insist otherwise is to say that the laws of nature were at some point violated. I agree! The laws of nature were violated, in a manner of speaking anyway. To trace the causes behind time, space, matter, energy, being, and whatever else, you will quickly realize that this problem exists. We both agree, I now presume, that, even according to science, the universe had a beginning. Science and materialism is very slim on the details, however, because if everything that exists isn't eternal, then where did everything come from? Where is the source? Nothing comes from nothing, so where did everything come from? There must be something, without question, that transcends all of what we know and observe. It is wishful thinking at best to seriously entertain any other idea since, again, it would go against everything we have ever observed. This transcendence must be at least equal to or greater than what we know or observe, also, or it would not be sufficient to cause it all. Therefore, not only from this transcendence do we find all matter, energy, and time, but also being, for this transcendence also caused us, living beings. Welcome to God. You may like to argue that this doesn't require one Transcendence, but that would be wrong. If there were one transcendent phenomenon behind each different thing (space, matter, energy…) that makes up our universe, it would be highly unlikely that they would function together as a whole the way that they do. Now, another argument we see is the infamous, “Where did the creator come from? Who created the creator?” Well, we have to have a definition of God, don't we? That is by very definition why we say “God” and not some other word. God is defined by that very quality as transcending everything; time, matter, energy, laws of physics and the universe. God created everything and stands outside of everything. So, asking the question above, that many do, is simply ignoring what “God” means when we use the term, and is why I label them ignorant. As to your further question about whether I think arguments justify a belief in Jesus Christ, yes, I do. I believe that the Bible clearly paints a picture of God being completely transcendent over the universe. I don't see the same in other “versions” of God. And, in regards to Jesus himself, I see no other figure in history that can compare with Him even slightly in any claim to deity. What impresses me, personally, the most about the uniqueness of Christ, however, is that He is the only one that knew what to do about sin. He knew how to pay the penalty for it. He knew how to deal with those who needed their debt paid. He paid the debt Himself, and then forgave the debts of those (us) who needed it. I see no other “holy man” having anything to say about this. They can fish the depths of their God-made heart and conscience and share about righteous living, but how to pay for any sins committed they didn't know (though some have contrived extremely self contradictory ways to “pay” for or have their sins cleansed).Brent
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
11:20 PM
11
11
20
PM
PDT
#242 Vjtorley I too will leave this discussion at this point. Thanks for your polite and measured comments (even though I utterly disagree)Mark Frank
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
10:45 AM
10
10
45
AM
PDT
Mark Frank (#241) Thank you for your thoughtful response. As a general comment, I'd like to make a suggestion. If you want to understand where I'm coming from, I strongly recommend that you read John Finnis' article, Aquinas' Moral, Political, and Legal Philosophy in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. I'll address your remarks on conscience first. Here is what Finnis writes in section 3.1 of his article, on conscience, as understood by Aquinas:
Conscience in Aquinas' view is not a special power or presence within us, but is our practical intelligence at work, primarily in the form of a stock of judgments about the reasonableness (rightness) or unreasonableness (wrongness) of kinds of action (kinds of option). Since each such judgment is of the form “[It is true that] action of the kind phi is always [or generally] wrong [or: is generally to be done, etc.]” or “phi is [always] [or: generally] required [or forbidden] by reason”, it must be the case – as Aquinas stresses very forcefully – that one's conscience is binding upon oneself even when it is utterly mistaken and directs or licenses awful misdeeds. For since it is logically impossible that one could be aware that one's present judgment of conscience is mistaken, setting oneself against one's own firm judgment of conscience is setting oneself against the goods of truth and reasonableness, and that cannot fail to be wrong: ST I-II q. 19 a. 5; Ver. q. 17 a. 4. The fact that, if one has formed one's judgment corruptly, one will also be acting wrongly if one follows it (ST I-II q. 19 a. 6) does not affect the obligatoriness (for oneself) of one's conscience. This teaching about conscience was rather novel in his day and to this day is often misrepresented or misapplied as a kind of relativism or subjectivism. But it is actually an implication of Aquinas' clarity about the implications of regarding moral judgments as true (or false) and of thus rejecting subjectivism and relativism. (Emphases mine - VJT.)
Now for your questions.
1) What do you discover – the moral worth of some particular event, the moral worth of some rules – both – something else?
As the foregoing quote makes clear, conscience informs us of the moral rightness or wrongness of some kind of action.
2) How do you know your discovery is correct?
That's a difficult question. On a practical level, one might answer: cultivate the virtues (discussed in section 4 of Finnis' article) and you'll be able to make the right judgements when the occasion demands. On a more theoretical level, you need to: (i) articulate your moral premises as clearly as possible, after making sure that they are based on principles of practical reason whose objects (basic human goods) are self-evidently desirable; (ii) clearly set out the moral reasoning by which you proceed to your practical conclusion; and (iii) check your logic, and invite others to scrutinize it as well. I should also add that in section 4.5 of Finnis' article, he points out that Aquinas "holds that no human act is morally good (right, in the sense of not wrong) unless it is in line with love of self and neighbor (and thus with respect for the basic aspects of the wellbeing of each and all human beings) not only (i) in the motives or intentions with which it is chosen, and (ii) in the appropriateness of the circumstances, but also (iii) in its object (more precisely the object, or closest-in intention of the choosing person..." So there are three things we need to look at.
3) If the rules such a moral law or the Bible conflict with what your conscience tells you which wins and why?
As Aquinas argued (see the quote above), conscience always comes first. However, one also has a very strong moral obligation to form one's conscience properly in the first place, so that one will make the right moral judgements. For instance, if I expose myself to thousands of hours of violent movies, knowing that doing so will desensitize me to the evil of violating another human being, then I have acted wickedly by allowing my conscience to be corrupted. Now I'd like to address your remarks on consequences. You write:
There is an important distinction between assessing the full consequences of an action – which may indeed be extremely difficult or may be quite easy – and assessing its morality. Your argument in #101 did not attempt to show that homosexual acts lead to unpleasant consequences. Rather argued that homosexuality was wrong itself. It may turn out that by some obscure causal chain that Polanski’s action led to a net benefit to mankind – but that doesn’t excuse him. It was still wrong.
You are quite right. The wrongfulness of an action does not stem from its consequences, but from the attitudes which underlie it. Interestingly, the Dalai Lama is of the same opinion, as I read him. In his classic, Ethics for the New Millennium (Abacus, 2000, p. 31) he states:
In Tibetan, the term for what is considered to be of the greatest significance when determining the ethical value of an action is the individual's kun long... [I]n the sense in which it is used here, kun long is understood as what drives or inspires our actions - both those we intend directly and those which are in a sense involuntary. It therefore denotes the individual's overal state of heart and mind. When this is wholesome, it follows that our actions themselves will be (ethically) wholesome.
Why then did I discuss consequences in my previous post (#240)? Although consequences do not make an action good or bad, we often need to consider the consequences of an action when forming a prudent assessment of its advisability. This is especially the case when we consider human laws, which are intended to promote what Aquinas, following Aristotle, refers to as the common good, or the public good. The projects of various individuals, each of which may be good in itself, may conflict with one another. Since a political community is meant to uphold social harmony, its leaders should do their utmost to minimize conflict and strife between citizens. That means they often need to look ahead, and carefully consider the short- and long-term consequences of the various projects initiated by members of the community. Prudence dictates the need for perpetual vigilance. Ascertaining what is good for a community therefore does require adverting to long-term consequences. For instance, the legal question of what kinds of personal expression should be tolerated is to some extent a prudential one. Ditto for behavior that has the potential to disrupt social order. Ascertaining what is good for an individual, on the other hand, generally does not require consideration of long-term consequences. For the moral judgement that certain kinds of acts by individuals are wrong is not based on the consequences of performing these acts, but rather on the attitudes underlying them. Consequences are important, however, when we are considering the formation of good habits in an individual - especially a child. I hope these remarks of mine have successfully addressed your questions. I shall sign off here, and if you wish to have the last word, you are welcome to do so, as far as I am concerned.vjtorley
October 14, 2009
October
10
Oct
14
14
2009
08:45 AM
8
08
45
AM
PDT
#240 Vjtorley There is an important distinction between assessing the full consequences of an action - which may indeed be extremely difficult or may be quite easy - and assessing its morality. Your argument in #101 did not attempt to show that homosexual acts lead to unpleasant consequences. Rather argued that homosexuality was wrong itself. It may turn out that by some obscure causal chain that Polanski's action led to a net benefit to mankind - but that doesn't excuse him. It was still wrong. I am actually not sure that you, Clive and Barry (among others) have the same view of the role of conscience. For me it is just a term for my moral reaction to certain outcomes. So it is easy to understand. But for you guys - it is a way of discovering some objective moral truth. 1) What do you discover - the moral worth of some particular event, the moral worth of some rules - both - something else? 2) How do you know your discovery is correct? 3) If the rules such a moral law or the Bible conflict with what your conscience tells you which wins and why? I am not sure you all give the same answer to these questions.Mark Frank
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
10:37 PM
10
10
37
PM
PDT
Mark Frank (#223) You raised an interesting point in your post, concerning the reliability of conscience as a guide to morality. Conscience is a pretty trustworthy guide when it tells us that certain pursuits (e.g. health or the pursuit of knowledge) are inherently good. Conscience is also a reliable guide when it tells us that certain acts which clearly thwart or subvert the realization of these intrinsic goods (e.g. starving oneself to death, or taking brain-damaging chemicals with the aim of thwarting one's ability to acquire new knowledge) or which violate the human agents seeking these goods (e.g. murder) are inherently bad. However, conscience is far less reliable when making the judgement that a certain act does not thwart or subvert any of the intrinsic human goods that are part and parcel of human nature. That is why we should be wary of our own subjective judgements that there is "absolutely nothing wrong" with an act (to cite your words). Judgements of this sort may often be wrong, because they fail to consider the act from all angles, with reference to the whole range of irreducibly distinct intrinsic goods that constitute our nature. Of course, we are not obliged to pursue all of these goods, but we are obliged to respect them, by doing nothing that would thwart or subvert their realization. As an aside, I find it amazing that certain people who readily acknowledge the difficulty of making the assessment that a human project (e.g. building a park, a factory or a wind farm) is harmless when examining its long-term ecological consequences, suddenly transform themselves into mental giants, capable of making instant snap assessments of the morality of sexual acts, on the basis of scant and often politically biased data from social scientists, which typically looks only at the short-term social consequences of human acts. Why? When James Hansen says we need to look not just a few decades but a few centuries ahead when pondering the long-term implications of continuing fossil fuel use, wise heads nod sagely. But when politicians vote on laws that will have radical effects on society and on people's lifestyles, nobody even thinks of constructing detailed social models that look at the consequences of the proposed changes, 300 years down the track - or even 30 years. Instead, what they typically do is look at "progressive" country X (which is usually a lot smaller, more isolated and less prone to having social problems anyway), gleefully rub their hands and say: "See? They passed this law a few years ago, and they haven't had any problems yet!" How shallow - and how sad.vjtorley
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
07:51 PM
7
07
51
PM
PDT
#233 It’s funny that you would try to vilify me and say that something is “clear” when it isn’t. Clive - I am sorry. I only mean't "Taliban approach" as a colourful label for top down ethics. It was not intended to vilify you. It is, I think, clear that you find top down ethics more acceptable. I don’t look up morality in any book of rules. My goodness, you assume a lot that just isn’t there. Objective morality is known in our conscience. There may be differences periodically between people, but nothing like A TOTAL difference as one would expect if morality did “evolve” from chaos. I am confused. What is it that we know from our conscience? Rules or that specific situations are right or wrong? Why would you expect a total difference between consciences if they had evolved? We don't get a total difference in other aspects of our psychology. We all evolved to meet similar pressures and there is extensive gene and cultural flow. There of course some differences in conscience between different times and places and people.Mark Frank
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
02:25 PM
2
02
25
PM
PDT
---Mark Frank: [to Clive] "As I said I may fail. You clearly find the Taliban approach to ethics more acceptable." There are always two extremes to be avoided. On the one hand, we should reject psychotic reactionaries who propound unreasonably rigid theological/cultural/and social rules at variance with human nature [Talibanism, religious ideology]. On the other hand, we should reject neurotic liberals who propound irresponsible moral relativism. which denies the very existencd of human nature [Darwinism, secularist ideology]. One extreme is just as dangerous as the other, because both lead to tyranny, as Clive clearly understands, and as you clearly do not. Standing like a giant colossus in the middle of these two unreasonable dogmas [and they are both dogmas] we have the reasonable natural moral law, which aligns itself perfectly with human nature. In your hysteria, you reject the middle ground, accept the neurotic extreme and reject reason as if it was the psychotic extreme. Unfortunaly, in your confusion, you drag Clive into your liberal fantasy. He proposes reason in accordance with human nature, you reject both as non-existenc, and propose instead the tyranny of moral relativism.StephenB
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
11:54 AM
11
11
54
AM
PDT
Brent, I'm afraid I just don't see how logic and reason lead us to God, and believe me I am very familiar with all the arguments. I don't think I am sliding out of anything any more than you are. We both agree, I presume, that questioning has to stop somewhere, one can't just keep asking "why?". I just prefer to stop one step before you. You think a creator is necessary, and yet stands in no further need of explanation. I don't think a creator is necessary, and just what we have stands in no further need of explanation. I doubt it will benefit either of us to continue debating those arguments, but I am interested just to know if you think they justify belief in the Judaeo-Christian god, or merely a deist kind of creator.delmot
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
10:36 AM
10
10
36
AM
PDT
BTW, I should note that some prefer to use the term "psychopath" in reference to those who lack any discernible conscience, and use "sociopath" to refer to those with Antisocial Personality Disorder, who in fact can be capable of some concern for others. In any case, whatever the terminological/diagnostic category, it's hard to argue that there are some people for whom "conscience" is merely an intellectual concept, if they even think about it at all.Doomsday Smith
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
10:11 AM
10
10
11
AM
PDT
Objective morality is known in our conscience. There may be differences periodically between people, but nothing like A TOTAL difference as one would expect if morality did “evolve” from chaos.
So, Clive, how do you explain the existence of sociopaths who do exhibit a "TOTAL difference"? Namely, the fact that they appear to entirely lack a conscience.Doomsday Smith
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
10:04 AM
10
10
04
AM
PDT
delmot, My real point is simply that your “logic just is” leaves us no better off, certainly, than God did it. At least there is logic and reason to lead us to the latter, however, whereas the former is simply saying in effect, “I don't want to bother thinking about the matter anymore.” But, isn't there this little matter of truth that we should consider? It's as if you think you can sorta just slide out of acknowledging anything that you might not like. It doesn't work that way. The truth is the truth, no matter what you believe.Brent
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
09:10 AM
9
09
10
AM
PDT
Mark Frank,
As I said I may fail. You clearly find the Taliban approach to ethics more acceptable.
It's funny that you would try to vilify me and say that something is "clear" when it isn't. What is clear is that there is no standard to be found by bottom-up evolutionary ethics that can decide between your humanity and the Taliban's humanity. I believe in objective morality so I CAN say that the Taliban is objectively wrong; you, however, cannot. If anything is "clear" it should be that there is no "objective humanity (of ethics)" that you're appealing to by your system of bottom-up ethics even when you try to convince me or anyone else by appealing to my "humanity" that the Taliban is wrong (as if by humanity you could mean anything other than subjectivity; you can't, not by your system). I don't look up morality in any book of rules. My goodness, you assume a lot that just isn't there. Objective morality is known in our conscience. There may be differences periodically between people, but nothing like A TOTAL difference as one would expect if morality did "evolve" from chaos.Clive Hayden
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
09:09 AM
9
09
09
AM
PDT
delmot, “According to quantum physics, particles appear out of nothing all the time” Not so. Although to contradict one who believes in magic is a fools game I will do so anyway. To quote William Lane Craig. "Virtual particles are theoretical entities and its not even clear that they exist as opposed to being merely theoretical constructs. However there is a much more important point to be made about this. You see, theses particles , if they are real, DO NOT COME OUT OF NOTHING because the quantum vacuum is SOMETHING. The quantum vacuum is not what most people envision when they think of a vacuum, that is absolutely nothing. On the contrary, it’s a sea of fluctuating energy, an arena of violent activity that has a rich physical structure and can be described by physical laws. These particles are thought to originate by fluctuations of energy in the vacuum. The quantum world is not an example of something coming into being out of nothing, or something coming into being with out a cause. The quantum vacuum and the energy locked up into the vacuum are the cause of those particles. And then we have to ask what is the origin of the whole quantum vacuum itself? Where does it come from? You’ve simply pushed back the issue of creation. Now you have to account for how this very active ocean of fluctuating energy came into being. If quantum physical laws operate within the domain described by quantum physics, you can’t legitimately use quantum physics to explain the origin of that domain itself. You need something transcendent that’s beyond the domain in order to explain how the entire domain came into being. Suddenly were back to the origins question." Vividvividbleau
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
08:28 AM
8
08
28
AM
PDT
I'm not sure that is in the domain of logic. Anyway it's an open question. And "God did it" is no answer, merely a deferral. How did God do it? Ineffably, I guess. Which god anyway? Your god? Allah? Vishnu? Chaos? Ra? Mbomo? Damballah? etc etc.delmot
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
07:43 AM
7
07
43
AM
PDT
delmot, "According to quantum physics, particles appear out of nothing all the time" Prior to be onset of matter, what did your logic say that quantum particles did?Upright BiPed
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
02:00 AM
2
02
00
AM
PDT
Brent: Everything came from nothing. Profound… profound gobbledygook. According to quantum physics, particles appear out of nothing all the time. It’s interesting that you think God is a “‘first cause’ type argument“, whereas your “logic just is” argument is not. A first cause argument argues from something that we know exists to something that we do not. But we already know logic exists. Aha but you do know God exists! Well, regardless, "logic just is" is still not a first cause argument.delmot
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
01:40 AM
1
01
40
AM
PDT
There is no valid “appeal to humanity” with bottom-up ethics. I reject bottom-up ethics out of hand, because they cannot differentiate between anything. As I said I may fail. You clearly find the Taliban approach to ethics more acceptable. You are uncomfortable unless there is a book of rules where you can look up the answer as to what is right and what is wrong. It is a consequence of my approach to ethics that I cannot prove you wrong. I can only point out the consequences and inconsistencies of your approach. Does evolution adhere to a “real” and transcendental ethic that is not also the product of it, or does evolution provide for what is right because it produces all standards? (oh wait, I forgot, you don’t even think it produces objective standards). Evolution doesn't adhere to anything, any more than continental drift or the circulation of the blood. It just a description of how we got to where we are. As a result we have feelings, consciences, weaknesses and strengths etc. But they way we got to be what we are does not entail anything about the rightness or wrongness of what we do.Mark Frank
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
12:40 AM
12
12
40
AM
PDT
Mark Frank,
I am making an appeal for “bottom-up” ethics as opposed to “top-down”.
There is no valid "appeal to humanity" with bottom-up ethics. I reject bottom-up ethics out of hand, because they cannot differentiate between anything. Does evolution adhere to a "real" and transcendental ethic that is not also the product of it, or does evolution provide for what is right because it produces all standards? (oh wait, I forgot, you don't even think it produces objective standards).Clive Hayden
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
12:27 AM
12
12
27
AM
PDT
#225 The point is that the Taliban are obsessed with their moral code and blind themselves to the direct appeal to human emotion of the suffering created by their rules. I say that they are wrong to do this. But when I do so I am not myself referring to some other moral code. I am appealing to your humanity. I may fail. I am making an appeal for "bottom-up" ethics as opposed to "top-down".Mark Frank
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
12:12 AM
12
12
12
AM
PDT
Mark Frank,
Morality should be based on human reaction or we end up with the Taliban.
The Taliban are humans that have moral "reaction" themselves. Are you saying that their "human reactions" are wrong compared to yours?Clive Hayden
October 13, 2009
October
10
Oct
13
13
2009
12:03 AM
12
12
03
AM
PDT
Brent, "Would you care to show how something being written on my heart and being obligated to do it are mutually exclusive." They are not quite the same. One is the voice of the conscience, and the other is a conscious understanding, involving an outside belief system. "Further, I didn’t say I did it because I was obligated to it, just simply that I am obligated, in that I will be held accountable in the end." I like karma better, even though I think that karma is part of the setup of this universe, set up by God along with every other parameter, it is a simple matter of consequences. What I don't like about the Christian view is that it says we are free, but if we exercise that freedom, we will be punished to an unimaginable degree. That is like having a burning building with trapped people inside, and standing at the only exit, and as each person comes up, you say that if they would like to pass, they must give every cent and worldly good to you. Naturally, most agree. But was it a gift freely given?avocationist
October 12, 2009
October
10
Oct
12
12
2009
11:38 PM
11
11
38
PM
PDT
#221 Nakashima I think you’ve misrepresented Mr Vjtorley’s argument. He hasn’t argued against homosexuality per se, merely that recognition of certain gay relationships as ‘marriage’ is both wrong and definitionally impossible. I think not. Vjtorley #222 If someone asked me to explain in one sentence why I think a sexual act between a same-sex couple can never be morally justified, But I am more interested in the last paragraph. I asked: If someone were to present a 16 point argument to establish that Polanski was not doing anything wrong what would be your reaction? His response appears to be that in this case that no obscure argument relating to moral law could possibly be relevant because "Everyone with a conscience knows that violating the body of another human being is wrong". This what I mean by our reaction as human beings trumping any reference to moral law. And my conscience tells me quite strongly that there is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexual relationships per se (although of course there may things wrong with specific homosexual and heterosexual relationships). Morality should be based on human reaction or we end up with the Taliban.Mark Frank
October 12, 2009
October
10
Oct
12
12
2009
10:58 PM
10
10
58
PM
PDT
1 2 3 9

Leave a Reply